Support NeoGAF

[CLEEK]

If people haven't moved to PCs already, i see no reason why they would start in the near future.

There is one major reason why I am not a PC gamer: the games. I own 250+ physical and digital games spread across all current consoles, handhelds and iOS. Of these, I'd guess that less than 10% are available on the PC. I'm not big on multi format Western developed games in general, left alone PC centric games like MMOs.

Even if Japan fully embraced the PC as a platform, there would still be the fact that the majority of games I love are console exclusives.

Edit: now thinking about it, none of the last 10 games I've bought are available on the PC. And my current most wanted games are console only.

 

[Globox_82]

I'm not sure a 7-8 year plan is in the best interest of the companies involved. Nor do I think it will happen again, I think this was an anomaly.

The tech industry can change so quickly and if you're waiting until year 3 of your product until you make money, you can be really fucked if some disruptive technology enters the market.

If anything it will get longer. Tech advancements have slowed down and it is so expensive to develop these machines. If you think we are going to go through 4-5 year generation again, think again. It will never ever happen again. Maybe Nintendo releases something since their systems are usually ancient tech from day 1. But that doesn't mean here comes new gen. More like Nintendo is finally joining current gen.

Fall 2013 means that 360 and Psthree have been on the market 7 & 8 years respectively. And many gamers are actually asking for 2014. Once new gen gets released next year, we are not going to see next one before 2020. Hardware revision yes (aka slim), gimmicky add ons (like tablet controller, eyetoy/kinect 2.5) but other then that, nothing.

 

[thuway]

Sony and MS would wait to 2015 if they could. No one wants an expensive console with hot, large, and anemic parts. Yet no one wants a stop gap experience after 7 years. Visual expectations are high.

It's best to wait it out and watch how the market reacts to Wii U. Jumping any sort of gun could lead to a market crash.

 

[thuway]

If anything it will get longer. Tech advancements have slowed down and it is so expensive to develop these machines. If you think we are going to go through 4-5 year generation again, think again. It will never ever happen again. Maybe Nintendo releases something since their systems are usually ancient tech from day 1. But that doesn't mean here comes new gen. More like Nintendo is finally joining current gen.

Fall 2013 means that 360 and Psthree have been on the market 7 & 8 years respectively. And many gamers are actually asking for 2014. Once new gen gets released next year, we are not going to see next one before 2020. Hardware revision yes (aka slim), gimmicky add ons (like tablet controller, eyetoy/kinect 2.5) but other then that, nothing.

Yes. PS3 and 360 still have life let in them. Sony and MS both need to wait until worthy successors at affordable prices are available. The industry will champion them as a whole.

 

[z0m3le]

If people haven't moved to PCs already, i see no reason why they would start in the near future.

There is one major reason why I am not a PC gamer: the games. I own 250+ physical and digital games spread across all current consoles, handhelds and iOS. Of these, I'd guess that less than 10% are available on the PC. I'm not big on multi format Western developed games in general, left alone PC centric games like MMOs.

Even if Japan fully embraced the PC as a platform, there would still be the fact that the majority of games I love are console exclusives.

Edit: now thinking about it, none of the last 10 games I've bought are available on the PC. And my current most wanted games are console only.

Yet, if you are a 360 user, most of those games are on PC... COD, BF3, Skyrim, Masseffect, mirriors edge, dark siders, assassin's creed, deus ex, dragon's age, darksiders, devil may cry, GTA, Resident Evil... the list goes on.

I don't know what 250 games you own, but if they are on the PS360 consoles, they have to be pretty niche to only have 25 or so on PC.

 

[onQ123]

why does jeff_rigby remind me of me? he just dig a lot deeper into the info then me when I seen the HSA stuff all I could think was this is why Sony is going with AMD & just started reading all about it & seen most of what jeff_rigby just posted as I was searching HSA info & went back & read what the guy from Sony was saying about working with 3rd Parties to achieve the goals it have planed for the PS4 & everything just seem to go together.

 

[Log4Girlz]

First thing I thought when I saw these rumors is "Man PS4 is going to have some awesome physics".

 

[thuway]

Yet, if you are a 360 user, most of those games are on PC... COD, BF3, Skyrim, Masseffect, mirriors edge, dark siders, assassin's creed, deus ex, dragon's age, darksiders, devil may cry, GTA, Resident Evil... the list goes on.

I don't know what 250 games you own, but if they are on the PS360 consoles, they have to be pretty niche to only have 25 or so on PC.

Final Fantasy XIII
Red Dead Redemption
Halo 3
Forza 3
Crackdown
Gears of War 2-3

There's your reason why I am not a PC gamer. It's cool to champion PC gaming, shit I have a nice little bugger myself, but let's not delude ourselves into thinking that platform holders are going to suddenly die out to PC.

 

[thuway]

why does jeff_rigby remind me of me? he just dig a lot deeper into the info then me when I seen the HSA stuff all I could think was this is why Sony is going with AMD & just started reading all about it & seen most of what jeff_rigby just posted as I was searching HSA info & went back & read what the guy from Sony was saying about working with 3rd Parties to achieve the goals it have planed for the PS4 & everything just seem to go together.

Than would you agree that a Fall 2014 would yield far better market results for every party involved to avoid this "stop gap" generation.

 

[jeff_rigby]

why does jeff_rigby remind me of me? he just dig a lot deeper into the info then me when I seen the HSA stuff all I could think was this is why Sony is going with AMD & just started reading all about it & seen most of what jeff_rigby just posted as I was searching HSA info & went back & read what the guy from Sony was saying about working with 3rd Parties to achieve the goals it have planed for the PS4 & everything just seem to go together.

Yup.... HSA is the same as the new efficiencies I've been going on about that make practical a next generation game console performance without exceeding a console power budget. For the last two and extending into the next AMD generation, they have been implementing these efficiencies and every year we see 30-60% improvements in performance AND a drop in power requirements of nearly 50%.

I wish SteveP and brain_stew had brought this up earlier. The info I'm posting is from a Feb 2, 2012 AMD press release.

Then would you agree that a Fall 2014 would yield far better market results for every party involved to avoid this "stop gap" generation.

I don't know...it looks like everything is in place for an announced in late 2013 and shipping in quantity 2014. I don't know enough of the timetables, there are some clues from AMD but nothing definite. 2.5 TFLOPS is doable and 2014 TOP end PC (out of our power budget) is 3.79 TFLOPS.

 

[thuway]

Yup.... HSA is the same as the new efficiencies I've been going on about that make practical a next generation game console performance without exceeding a console power budget. For the last two and extending into the next AMD generation, they have been implementing these efficiencies and every year we see 30-60% improvements in performance AND a drop in power requirements of nearly 50%.

I wish SteveP and brain_stew had brought this up earlier.

What does this mean for a console launched in 2014? Could we see 2.5 Tflops or higher performance?

 

[elcranky]

Than would you agree that a Fall 2014 would yield far better market results for every party involved to avoid this "stop gap" generation.

2012 is the best year, followed by 2014. 2013 seems like a terrible year technology-wise. Unless stacked DDR4 memory and several other innovations launch early, it doesn't make sense to lanch in 2013.

For MS, 14 is when they switch to their own Kinect design instead of using primesense chips so launching with Kinect 2.0 then makes additional sense.

All in all 2013 launch dates for both companies is puzzling.

 

[z0m3le]

why does jeff_rigby remind me of me? he just dig a lot deeper into the info then me when I seen the HSA stuff all I could think was this is why Sony is going with AMD & just started reading all about it & seen most of what jeff_rigby just posted as I was searching HSA info & went back & read what the guy from Sony was saying about working with 3rd Parties to achieve the goals it have planed for the PS4 & everything just seem to go together.

I actually had a pretty good chat with him yesterday about the APUs, we got on the topic of MS using an AMD processor to emulate the 360's for backwards compatibility, and I have to say that I don't see that happening, I think they can pretty much do exactly what Sony is doing with the APU, just have IBM and AMD work together again like with the xbox360s, you can even have them share memory like trinity, technically they already do share the memory on the Xbox360s, but it's not enabled due to compatibility with the Original 360.

How I see next gen working out is:

Wii U: IBM cpu (~3ghz 3cores, 6 threads) AMD custom GPU (768gflops+, 32mb embedded ram) ~1.5GB ram

XB3: IBM cpu (~3ghz 4cores 8 threads) AMD ~7660D on chip with CPU, AMD custom GPU (~1.5Tflops, 32mb+ embedded ram) ~4GB ram if GDDR3, or 2GB ram if GDDR5.

PS4: AMD APU (4-6cores, 4-6threads, ~7660D), AMD custom GPU (1.2Tflops, 32mb embedded ram) ~4GB ram if GDDR3, or 2GB ram if GDDR5.

Final Fantasy XIII
Red Dead Redemption
Halo 3
Forza 3
Crackdown
Gears of War 2-3

There's your reason why I am not a PC gamer. It's cool to champion PC gaming, shit I have a nice little bugger myself, but let's not delude ourselves into thinking that platform holders are going to suddenly die out to PC.

I agree with you, just not that the PC has a small selection of games.

 

[RaijinFY]

imo, what Sony wants is an APU only, not an APU + a separate GPU.

 

[McHuj]

If anything it will get longer. Tech advancements have slowed down and it is so expensive to develop these machines.

We'll have to disagree. Yes, technical advancements have slowed down, but I'm not talking about technical advancements as much as locking yourself to a platform the doesn't make money for several years due to putting out an uber box.

I think using more generic components like an APU allows you to reduce your R&D expenses, move to market quicker, and sell with profitability much quicker.

 

[Globox_82]

I don't know...it looks like everything is in place for an announced in late 2013 and shipping in quantity 2014. I don't know enough of the timetables, there are some clues from AMD but nothing definite. 2.5 TFLOPS is doable and 2014 TOP end PC (out of our power budget) is 3.79 TFLOPS.

I agree. I think we will get those 2.5Tflops in the end.

 

[Globox_82]

We'll have to disagree. Yes, technical advancements have slowed down, but I'm not talking about technical advancements as much as locking yourself to a platform the doesn't make money for several years due to putting out an uber box.

I think using more generic components like an APU allows you to reduce your R&D expenses, move to market quicker, and sell with profitability much quicker.

We disagree I guess.

 

[Globox_82]

Exclusive: PS4 / Orbis Rumoured To Feature “Native” OpenGL

Anonymous sources? Seems like everyone in the industry has at least two. On each arm.

Our little birdy has been whispering into our shell-like recently, and seems to know a thing or two about the next generation PlayStation, widely rumoured to be – in terms of codename at least – called Orbis.

Our source gave us a knowing nod on that account, but also suggested something that developers might well be interested in: Orbis will support OpenGL natively.

“OpenGL is a layered API on the PS3,” our source told us. “It’s much easier to use than LibGCM, which is the main PS3 system.”

So, with the PS3, OpenGL is emulated on top of LibGCM. ”With Orbis, though,” our source added, again suggesting that the name is sticking, “OpenGL is native.”

Naturally, we need to stamp this one with a big fat RUMOUR sign. But it’s not a massive big sticker or anything, more a subtle little peelable one – like the ones you get on apples.

http://www.thesixthaxis.com/2012/04/11/exclusive-ps4-orbis-rumoured-to-feature-native-opengl/

 

[V_Ben]

Native OpenGL would be pretty nice for developers, right? Easier to use and all that?

 

[z0m3le]

I agree. I think we will get those 2.5Tflops in the end.

The reason you think that is because of Epic's Demo, but the number of Tflops he gave was based on Nvidia's GPUs, not AMD's... Nvidia has much lower flop performance in their cards, but they perform far better on the actual game, 2.5Tflops for Nvidia is closer to 4Tflops for AMD. (honest as can be with this, flops won't really matter, and anything over 1Tflops will be noticeable)

 

[Triple U]

Just because the form factor is different for some of these components doesn't mean the high-level architecture inherently changes. Look at laptops. There are designs that incorporate MoBo designs that are more akin to a console than a PC - memory soldered on, discrete GPU's that aren't using a conventional PCIe slot, etc. Laptop designs are quite different from PC's in terms of physical interfaces, yet they don't require some exotic memory architecture in order to communicate.

Laptops are generally not designed with performance as the main factors and they are much more similar to a desktop than you think. The fact that they run Windows is also a major factor, the kernel is very mature and takes care the bulk of memory management and thread management while Sony gives that job to the developer for more flexibility. As much as you seem to want to, you can't just point at PCs to figure how this is going to work.

An APU isn't some mythical beast. From a high-level it's pretty similar to Intel's integrated graphics - it's an SoC that includes both a CPU and a GPU. In both cases, the GPU uses main memory. They don't have anything that would automatically require a complex new memory architecture. What mostly differentiates ATi's design is processing power and the fact it supports the current shader model.

Thats the problem.
From jeff_rigbys link

http://hothardware.com/News/ConsoleWatch-PS4-Orbis-CPU-Specs-Leak-But-Likely-Reflect-Early-Hardware/

Inside sources have leaked information to the press claiming that the CPU in the next-generation PS4 (codenamed Orbis) is an AMD Llano A8-3850. The chip will supposedly be paired with an AMD Radeon 7670 GPU with 1GB of integrated VRAM.

This is the same problem we saw with the PS3. The bulk of the memory usage this next gen is gonna be tied to the GPU, and if these rumors are true, guessing the console would have 2GBs of ram Sony has again effectively halved the practical memory you can use as the GPU would certainly have to go thru the APU's buses to try and use the main system ram pool. Ask any developer this gen how fun that is.

That's not strictly the case any more, and if anything I'd expect things to increase.

In what manner? Maybe for support of mor I/O interfaces and peripherals, AMD/Nvidia will most likely continue to provide the same HALs to sony/ms/nintendo for there parts that they been have.

Whether it makes sense or not depends on what the manufacturer is trying to do. As armchair architects, our first inclination is to always assume that a single, more powerful GPU makes the most sense ... but we have no idea what their end goal is or what sort of issues they're seeing.

While I agree that our practical knowledge would be severely lacking, there is a wealth of information easily available for us to gain a theoretical knowledge of the design process. Compsci/EE info is available all over the internet.

Read this from the link I posted earlier.

Llano's Achilles heel is the interconnect between its CPU and GPU; the communication channel is very similar to an old-school motherboard northbridge implementation. It's easy for the CPU to transfer data to the GPU but much more difficult for the GPU to do the same -- which means it's also much harder for AMD to take advantage of Llano's array of GPU cores as a general-purpose compute array. Bandwidth is quite limited; Llano's GPU is critically dependent on main memory bandwidth to function well.

Now, let's talk about the Radeon 7670. It's a rebranded HD 6760, based on the budget Turks 40nm GPU. According to IGN, "When the APU is paired with the HD 7670, however, Sony will be able to utilize an asymmetrical CrossFire configuration to share the load of realtime graphics processing." That's technically true, but the benefits of Hybrid Crossfire are limited to DX10/11 games (it's unclear how AMD would scale the benefit to OpenGL and older DX9 titles are often slower than they'd be with just the dGPU.) Scaling benefits are also erratic and vary significantly from game to game.

It's possible that in terms of heat/reliability, they can do better doing a split design than a single GPU even if that means they aren't quite as efficient. I suspect the bigger issue is one of usage intent. They may envision a situation where a low power mode will be quite useful. Basically the console will use the APU-only for certain situations like media, specific arcade games, social stuff, etc. I'm sure there are plenty of other reasons to do something like this we haven't even though of.

I can see the alternate advanatages this setup would have but maximum performance doesn't seem like one here.

What does that have to do with anything? Direct X is an API for graphics and sound and Windows is an OS. Any modern PC or console has its own functional equivalents. While many times console manufactures allow some level of 'coding to the metal', that doesn't mean a higher level API doesn't exist.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Direct X isn't tied to split memory or anything. You can use PC's without a dedicated GPU. Moreover, the Xbox was called Xbox as a short-hand for Direct X Box. MS's goal was to make a console with API's and dev environments that were closer to PC development than traditional console development. Xbox and 360's API is essentially a modified subset of Direct X.

There are fundemental differences between the OS you would see on a PS3 and the one you would see on a PC. As I said earlier, things like thread management are in the developers hand way more than in a PC setup. Can't simply compare Windows game development to Console development.

What issues ... I haven't seen any that you've brought up.

Sarcasm? Im pretty sure you just quoted my text laying out BW and latency issues....

 

[onQ123]

Than would you agree that a Fall 2014 would yield far better market results for every party involved to avoid this "stop gap" generation.

yes I would & looking at The Last of Us & the Kara demo from Quantic Dream I'm really not seeing a time in the next 2 years where the PS3 graphics will not be good enough for the general public. maybe even up into 2015 for must people these graphics are good enough for their gaming needs, only if Wii-U make all the PS3 \ Xbox360 games look bad to everyone will there really be a need to come out in 2013 & I'm not sure if that's going to happen.

 

[phosphor112]

So, for people that understand this more.

So... OpenCL... as long as the hardware is using it, the code will work on ANY hardware right?

So... if people drop x86 ISA... going forward OpenCL will allow much wider varieties of CPU architectures? Theoretically something like... Cell and AMD's Fusion? Write code once and it'll work on both as long as they support OpenCL? This can be fantastic for consoles going forward... IF I'm understanding this correctly.

 

[ZeMMiK]

If Sony is still there that time with with there 6,5 billion loss....
mmmm they need some serious reorganize or we do not have a ps4.

 

[phosphor112]

If Sony is still there that time with with there 6,5 billion loss....
mmmm they need some serious reorganize or we do not have a ps4.

Ok.

 

[Triple U]

So, for people that understand this more.

So... OpenCL... as long as the hardware is using it, the code will work on ANY hardware right?
So... if people drop x86 ISA... going forward OpenCL will allow much wider varieties of CPU architectures? Theoretically something like... Cell and AMD's Fusion? Write code once and it'll work on both as long as they support OpenCL? This can be fantastic for consoles going forward... IF I'm understanding this correctly.

I suppose thats the idea at least.

 

[phosphor112]

I suppose thats the idea at least.

That's pretty legit... ultra fast high level code? Makes me tingle down there.

 

[theBishop]

Exclusive: PS4 / Orbis Rumoured To Feature “Native” OpenGL

Anonymous sources? Seems like everyone in the industry has at least two. On each arm.

Our little birdy has been whispering into our shell-like recently, and seems to know a thing or two about the next generation PlayStation, widely rumoured to be – in terms of codename at least – called Orbis.

Our source gave us a knowing nod on that account, but also suggested something that developers might well be interested in: Orbis will support OpenGL natively.

“OpenGL is a layered API on the PS3,” our source told us. “It’s much easier to use than LibGCM, which is the main PS3 system.”

So, with the PS3, OpenGL is emulated on top of LibGCM. ”With Orbis, though,” our source added, again suggesting that the name is sticking, “OpenGL is native.”

Naturally, we need to stamp this one with a big fat RUMOUR sign. But it’s not a massive big sticker or anything, more a subtle little peelable one – like the ones you get on apples.

http://www.thesixthaxis.com/2012/04/11/exclusive-ps4-orbis-rumoured-to-feature-native-opengl/

Something seems lost in translation here. My understanding is that LibGCM allows "close-to-the-metal" access to the RSX. PS3 also supports OpenGL as mentioned in the quote. Using LibGCM allows you to extract more performance at the expense of development complexity. It seems to me this would be preferable to "Native OpenGL" (whatever that means), if there's no lower level of abstraction available.

Maybe they just mean PS4's OpenGL implementation is better optimized for the hardware than on PS3. But mostly this just sounds like TSA looking for attention.

 

[Zoramon089]

If anything it will get longer. Tech advancements have slowed down and it is so expensive to develop these machines. If you think we are going to go through 4-5 year generation again, think again. It will never ever happen again. Maybe Nintendo releases something since their systems are usually ancient tech from day 1. But that doesn't mean here comes new gen. More like Nintendo is finally joining current gen.

Fall 2013 means that 360 and Psthree have been on the market 7 & 8 years respectively. And many gamers are actually asking for 2014. Once new gen gets released next year, we are not going to see next one before 2020. Hardware revision yes (aka slim), gimmicky add ons (like tablet controller, eyetoy/kinect 2.5) but other then that, nothing.

1 weak console = always. We're ignoring the fact Sony has been among the weakest consoles for every other gen but this one, right?

 

[phosphor112]

Something seems lost in translation here. My understanding is that LibGCM allows "close-to-the-metal" access to the RSX. PS3 also supports OpenGL as mentioned in the quote. Using LibGCM allows you to extract more performance at the expense of development complexity. It seems to me this would be preferable to "Native OpenGL" (whatever that means), if there's no lower level of abstraction available.

Maybe they just mean PS4's OpenGL implementation is better optimized for the hardware than on PS3. But mostly this just sounds like TSA looking for attention.

Yeah, I wasn't too sure what they meant with all that stuff...
PSGL for PS3 uses OpenGL ES 1.0 with 2.0 features along with the mentioned LibGCM...

Maybe they'll keep LibGCM but include a new OpenGL instead of ES?

1 weak console = always. We're ignoring the fact Sony has been among the weakest consoles for every other gen but this one, right?

SNES came out two years after the Genesis... so of course it'll be more powerful in some ways even though the Genesis was a beast in itself.

N64 came out two years after the PS1... so of course it'll be more powerful in some aspects there as well...

GC/Xbox came out came out a year and half after the PS2... after major Shader/gpu breakthroughs happened...

See where I'm going? Just because it was more powerful doesn't mean anything when you put it into the context of time...

 

[phosphor112]

dp

 

[funkystudent]

My favorate thing about these threads on gaf is Jeff_Rigby and his liberal and sometimes completely random use of bold text

 

[phosphor112]

My favorate thing about these threads on gaf is Jeff_Rigby and his liberal and sometimes completely random use of bold text

This is something going on in his head we simply cannot understand.

 

[Globox_82]

1 weak console = always. We're ignoring the fact Sony has been among the weakest consoles for every other gen but this one, right?

this is so ignorant that I am not even going to bother. Ignorance is bliss I guess

read @phosphor112 comment over and over and over ............

 

[theBishop]

Yeah, I wasn't too sure what they meant with all that stuff...
PSGL for PS3 uses OpenGL ES 1.0 with 2.0 features along with the mentioned LibGCM...

Maybe they'll keep LibGCM but include a new OpenGL instead of ES?

ES basically is OpenGL. It's a specification for deploying OpenGL on embedded devices. Technically, it's a subset of the full specification, but the distinction is kind of minor.

 

[phosphor112]

ES basically is OpenGL. It's a specification for deploying OpenGL on embedded devices. Technically, it's a subset of the full specification, but the distinction is kind of minor.

Hmmm... ok... sorry don't know much about APIs =/

Maybe someone can try to elaborate more.

 

[theBishop]

My favorate thing about these threads on gaf is Jeff_Rigby and his liberal and sometimes completely random use of bold text

Jeff's links often contain useful information, but rarely information relevant to the topic.

 

[DaSorcerer7]

this is so ignorant that I am not even going to bother. Ignorance is bliss I guess

Care to explain how his statement is ignorant?

 

[phosphor112]

Care to explain how his statement is ignorant?

I debunked it already. Scroll up.

 

[onQ123]

Something seems lost in translation here. My understanding is that LibGCM allows "close-to-the-metal" access to the RSX. PS3 also supports OpenGL as mentioned in the quote. Using LibGCM allows you to extract more performance at the expense of development complexity. It seems to me this would be preferable to "Native OpenGL" (whatever that means), if there's no lower level of abstraction available.

Maybe they just mean PS4's OpenGL implementation is better optimized for the hardware than on PS3. But mostly this just sounds like TSA looking for attention.

I'm guessing that OpenGL will be hardware level & not software based


"He describes the architecture in broad terms: "You are talking about powerful CPU and GPU with extra DSP and programmable logic."

 

[theBishop]

I'm guessing that OpenGL will be hardware level & not software based


"He describes the architecture in broad terms: "You are talking about powerful CPU and GPU with extra DSP and programmable logic."

One key difference between OpenGL and DirectX is that the hardware vendor provides the OpenGL implementation. So new hardware can have "vendor extensions", which are not yet rolled into the official standard. With DirectX, Microsoft defines the standard (with lots of industry input), and hardware is designed to support the standard.

So this "hardware/software" distinction doesn't make a lot of sense to me. OpenGL is an API which provides software calls that run on the GPU hardware.

It sounds like the "extra DSP and programmable logic" he's talking about is the array of SPUs on the Cell chip. Nothing about the GPU and/or OpenGL implementation on PS3.

 

[Globox_82]

Care to explain how his statement is ignorant?

Ignorant as well? Read my comment again, don't just blindly ask to "explain". Read phosphor112 post. I am sick and tired of repeating same crap tbh.

 

[M°°nblade]

I debunked it already. Scroll up.

Unfortunately, it's not going to stop the myth.

 

[DaSorcerer7]

Ignorant as well? Read my comment again, don't just blindly ask to "explain". Read phosphor112 post. I am sick and tired of repeating same crap tbh.

Well, I'm sorry you feel that way,but with all do respect the phoshor112, although what he posted is factually correct it doesn't negate the fact that those systems were still released within their respective generations and had more capable hardware. Maybe you should think before generalizing.

 

[i-Lo]

Well, I'm sorry you feel that way,but with all do respect the phoshor112, although what he posted is factually correct it doesn't negate the fact that those systems were still released within their respective generations and had more capable hardware. Maybe you should think before generalizing.

I think you still misunderstand. The original argument was that PS3 was Sony's first powerful console and that isn't strictly true. Due to the launch of new hardware afterwards by Sony's competitors, they were at a disadvantage. Therefore, in its own right, PS2 was no slouch. The extra time allowed for tech to develop quite substantially which was integrated into the competitors' consoles. Since, Sony are now looking to release their next console slightly earlier or at the same time as MS, it stands to reason that their hardware will be almost identical in power given no new big jumps in tech is expected to occur for the Sony's competition to take advantage of and create a great performance rift.

 

[M°°nblade]

Well, I'm sorry you feel that way,but with all do respect the phoshor112, although what he posted is factually correct it doesn't negate the fact that those systems were still released within their respective generations and had more capable hardware. Maybe you should think before generalizing.

If you agree that it's factually correct that being 'powerful' is in the context of time, it's pointless to use previouse generations as examples where Nintendo released their consoles two years later when it will be the other way around for next generation.

 

[Globox_82]

Well, I'm sorry you feel that way,but with all do respect the phoshor112, although what he posted is factually correct it doesn't negate the fact that those systems were still released within their respective generations and had more capable hardware. Maybe you should think before generalizing.

Another ignorant comment. That's why there is no point in arguing. You people have already decided and that's how it is.
Read i-Lo post, since you didn't get phosphor112 maybe i-Lo can help.

 

[H_Prestige]

1 weak console = always. We're ignoring the fact Sony has been among the weakest consoles for every other gen but this one, right?

One? I'm counting three. Four by the end of this year.

 

[phosphor112]

One? I'm counting three. Four by the end of this year.

I forgot the inclusion of their handhelds as well.. never have been technologically advanced...

 

[StevieP]

One? I'm counting three. Four by the end of this year.

I think they were talking about home consoles. And by the end of this year, that's 2.
Ancient was also a terrible word to use, because irrespective to how many ALUs and CPU threads the Wii U has, it will be using newer tech than the CPUs/GPUs inside the Vita.

Does that mean the Vita is using "ancient" tech? Heck no, the Vita is an awesome marriage of practical and available tech and great engineering.