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IGN rumour: PS4 to have '2 GPUs' - one APU based + one discrete
- Thread starter gofreak
- Start date
Mark my words, if PS4 is not to be launched before holiday 2013 or Q1 2014 then there will be no demo of PS4 during E3. It's all about pushing Vita sales.
With all the talk of stacking, FPGA, etc (which fly over my head most of the time), I wonder if Sony has finalized how capable the machine is supposed to be (not specs mind you, rather objectives) given (once again) rumours about MS making changes to their own design now after third party input.
So far the collective rumours point to these probable specs:
- SoC with APU comprising of either Steamroller (mainstream) or Jaguar (mobile platform) CPU
- On board GPU being equivalent to Radeon HD 5XXX
- Discrete GPU akin to alleged Pitcairn LE a.k.a HD7790
- Total system (and perhaps shared) 2GB GDDR5
- Blu- Ray
- Est. TDP is betwen 200 to 250W for first iteration
Personally, I thought that 3D stacking may allow for greater amount of RAM in the given space.
With all the talk of stacking, FPGA, etc (which fly over my head most of the time), I wonder if Sony has finalized how capable the machine is supposed to be (not specs mind you, rather objectives) given (once again) rumours about MS making changes to their own design now after third party input.
So far the collective rumours point to these probable specs:
- SoC with APU comprising of either Steamroller (mainstream) or Jaguar (mobile platform) CPU
- On board GPU being equivalent to Radeon HD 5XXX
- Discrete GPU akin to alleged Pitcairn LE a.k.a HD7790
- Total system (and perhaps shared) 2GB GDDR5
- Blu- Ray
- Est. TDP is betwen 200 to 250W for first iteration
Personally, I thought that 3D stacking may allow for greater amount of RAM in the given space.
I must be misunderstanding what a CU is, then.
EDIT: The 7870 has 20CUs, but I'm not sure about the 7850.
EDIT2: I was right. the 7850 only has 16CUs. Or rather, it has 20 but four are disabled.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/5625/...-hd-7850-review-rounding-out-southern-islands
Those 7790 rumors are probably fake, since it would definitely be more powerful than the 7850.
phosphor112
Banned
Aren't FPGA's capable of hardware emulation?...
How hard would it be to get something like that for ...you know PS3 stuff?
EDIT: Reading more into this, without FPGA, hardware emulation is very difficult and only "slow" simulation is possible. FPGA's would allow very fast and efficient emulation. Though, a roadblock to this would be creating the actual FPGA design that would properly emulate the hardware since there is no "debugging."
How hard would it be to get something like that for ...you know PS3 stuff?
EDIT: Reading more into this, without FPGA, hardware emulation is very difficult and only "slow" simulation is possible. FPGA's would allow very fast and efficient emulation. Though, a roadblock to this would be creating the actual FPGA design that would properly emulate the hardware since there is no "debugging."
Yea, I just checked.
With regards to 7790, I think the core clock may be lower than what's shown esp. if an equivalent version went into PS4. However, the 7850 does have 1GB extra RAM. Still, the card itself is a rumour and may only exist for a console iteration.
jeff_rigby
Banned
100% agree and would add that "AMD is betting the farm on HSA" and needs Sony and game/application developers to use it, make it a standard. Thus AMD working with Khronos and making this an Open Standard. Sony Should use the 2014 FULL HSA design which is Jaguar (without FPU means it's designed to use the GPU for math) not Steamroller which has a FPU.Ashes1396 said:
The Sony CTO interview on Playstation tech gave us the objectives. Reading that interview and the SimiAccurate post then AMD APU fusion specs give a nearly 1:1 correlation with the 2014 AMD SOC design stated goals.
There is some more that can be comfortably stated:
SOC to be built with Standard building blocks provided by AMD and IBM meeting the standards of the Global Foundries, IBM and Samsung foundries Consortium. Some (probably limited) IP may be provided by Sony. HSA, Fabric Memory model and OpenCL part of the OS and hardware design. It's a 2014 SOC design incorporating full HSA which includes GPU redesign(s) both GPUs?)) and may be why Jaguar CPU (2013 - 2014 design) is being used (It should not use GDDR5 unless the second GPU is not HSA but a off the shelf PCIe 2012 design. My opinion is 2014 and forward AMD GPUs will incorporate 3D stacked memory for PC designed cards also). (Forward compatibility with PS5 supported and distributed computing "Cell Vision" possible)
Display port(s) and most likely a HDMI interface on the back of the PS4. AMD video out and Display port can direct drive LCD head mounted glasses allowing for less expensive and lighter AR glasses.
or up to 6 monitors.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DisplayPort#ATI.2FAMD said:
To fully support two 21.6 Gbps streams or 4K resolution will require very fast memory like 3D stacked or Ultra wide I/O 3D stacked (only in the SOC) and a highly parallel design. A possible reason for 2 GPUs? (Supported by Sony CTO interview and SimiAccurate post) Sony CTO said 8K by 4K and 300FPS combined support which could be PS5 or the PS4 is a 2014 AMD design with specs that have not been released with more support for Higher resolutions or Sony is specifying changes to support higher res.
Lots of accessories for USB 3.0 and Display port in the works also which makes retailers happy even if they don't sell the PS4 at a high margin. This was the reason for not including a HDMI cable with the PS3 ($25 profit for each HDMI cable/each PS3 sold).
jeff_rigby
Banned
Neither can announce anything till after Oct 2012 when AMD & IBM give a green light on Yields to both Sony and Microsoft. TGS 2012 is a possible for Sony given your view. Also likely are slightly more credible leaks by both companies with a possibility that both companies might start disclosing what's possible next generation at E3 (wink wink) but not announcing a release date.
Lots of new features and applications (Webview Rich Internet Applications) coming for the PS3 this year with Jan 2013 and h.265 (half the bandwidth needed) impacting IPTV (Vita and PS3) and most likely allowing 4K blu-ray playback from the PS3 and on-line 4K picture & video viewing with zooming (Playview) (Vita, PS3, PS Suite) (Playview (4K source) infinite Zooming). This year after Sony ports a player (Vita and PS3) we should see support for HTML5 <video>, Commercial DASH IPTV and Augmented Reality. At the present time they are using AVM+ (Adobe Flash supported with OpenVG) but only for non-commercial use. This will change to a Player with bindings to CairoGL.
So it's possible that PS3 and Vita will have enough new and exciting features that a PS4 feature announcement won't impact Sales particularly if there is a price reduction for the 2012 buying season at the end of this year.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Feature wise, potentially depending on the AMD building blocks chosen by Sony for the SOC. CPU power, Yes..the Fusion CPU-GPU should be on the order of 16-30 Cell SPUs with 2014 GPU in the APU then 113% efficiencies are possible allowing for reduced power/heat or more performance equal to even more SPUs or more likely a combination of power/heat reduction with higher performance. Not mentioned yet is turbo mode which allows the CPU in the APU to run at a higher clock speed for limited periods for critical code or the Zero power Standby modes supported by AMD designs, temp sensing and with overheat automatic clock speed reductions and more.
Second GPU performance is not as pinned down as I haven't found any GPU information on second GPU support except for PC designs. This is a big open ? with only developer specs on AMD 2012 PCs with older designs not 2014.
The wide range, 16-30 SPU performance maybe more, mentioned above gives an idea of the uncertainties we all have as to the eventual PS4 performance. Everything is from Rumored developer platforms using older AMD tech in their roadmap over the last 3 years in their ramp up to full HSA SOC which is their 2014-2020 hardware design.
Two up from the bottom of page 1 in this thread is a link to the June 2012 AMD developers conference and an explanation of a number of features and terms being discussed at the June meeting. A couple are interesting and understandable.
Ask the Experts: Heterogeneous and GPU Compute with AMD’s Manju Hegde Article is about HSA being AMDs future. Comments are interesting as there is an Intel Shrill talking about AVX2 vector processing extensions for X86 in Intel processors (8X faster). Mentioned is the OS has to support the 256 bit register operations which Linux (2008) and FreeBSD Jan 2012 do now support. Really Intel must be worried about AMD APUs and SOCs. The Shrill keeps talking up homogeneous processors (same code not OpenCL used) with CPUs evolving toward GPUs not CPU-CPU combined APUs the future. The point still missed in the talks is HSA support for multiple different CPUs like FPGA in the SOC , APU evolves to a SOC in 2014 with any CPU being HSA supportable. It's not just X86!
this was just posted on engadget http://www.engadget.com/2012/05/15/amd-trinity-apu-unveiled/
might be relevant. sorry for the sloppy post, posting from my phone.
might be relevant. sorry for the sloppy post, posting from my phone.
BBC article, similar stuff.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-18048078
Mainstream news outlet. Hmm...
Edit: anandtech have their features up.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-18048078
Mainstream news outlet. Hmm...
Edit: anandtech have their features up.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Found another site with AMD links and information.
Does this Embedded Console look like a Xbox game console?
Does this Embedded Console look like a Xbox game console?
http://www.anandtech.com/show/5492/amds-rory-read-outlines-amds-future-strategy said:
phosphor112
Banned
I knew you were "old" Jeff, but didn't think you were that old to ask us if that was an xbox =P.
Yes, it's a 360.
Seems like something they'll try to get down to 28nm to implement into a console. Increase performance and power usage even more so.
Yes, it's a 360.
Seems like something they'll try to get down to 28nm to implement into a console. Increase performance and power usage even more so.
phosphor112
Banned
Always-honest
Banned
Can it run Last Guardian???
phosphor112
Banned
Why are people assuming it won't?
Microsoft is a business first and foremost. They wont sacrifice even 50 bucks per console just to get something more powerful than Sony. If anything, they will be very similar.
tinfoilhatman
all of my posts are my avatar
No one knows, but the fact is MS has 10x more resources(ie money) to throw at or lose on hardware than Sony.
Proelite
Member
Don't expect too much from MS in terms of hardware, the augmented reality glasses + kinect setup they're going to go with cost a fortune. They won't have much left for the console itself.
Sony is already on a good start if the 7790 is a discrete component, it can only get better from there.
Sony is already on a good start if the 7790 is a discrete component, it can only get better from there.
I assumed he was being rhetorical.
Can't think of anyone who is.
btw, today, they released mobile apu, I think we get desktop apu in a few months.
I presume mobility covers mobile apus. Embedded covers consoles it seems. Good find Jeff.
I suppose, Microsoft is probably going for a v. powerful cpu from IBM though.
where did this post even come from?
Does this quote not suggest that PS4 will be more powerful ?
jeff_rigby
Banned
Just being lazy.I assumed he was being rhetorical.
btw, today, they released mobile apu, I think we get desktop apu in a few months.
I presume mobility covers mobile apus. Embedded covers consoles it seems. Good find Jeff.
I suppose, Microsoft is probably going for a v. powerful cpu from IBM though.
Trinity is 100% more efficient than the last generation at the same 32nm die size and 2014 will be what %? Including new HSA features plus a reduction to 28nm may be another 100%.
Trinity is still GPU and CPU on same die at 32nm. The 2013 Global foundries SOC process is supposed to be separate "process optimized" building blocks to build custom SOCs to customer specs and might have 28nm CPU and GPU with southbridge at 22nm.
Notice Trinity has 2 DDR3 memory interfaces (2/3 interleaved banks) to speed up memory access. It could use 3D stacked and one.
It could do, yeah. This is a step towards that.
On the stuff released today: the review was
With what we now 'know' about embedded being console chips, and not mobility, I don't have a clue as to what custom Jaguar chips are capable of.
We'll know more at Amd's summit in June, I'm sure.
This is from the desktop Llano chip, feature,
http://www.anandtech.com/show/4476/amd-a83850-review
(^^^ 2011)
(VVV 2012)
We're in step 2, optimisation, and step 3 should be the exploitation phase.
* http://www.anandtech.com/show/5831/amd-trinity-review-a10-4600m-a-new-hope/3
(The desktop Trinity chips will apparently retain their 65W and 100W targets.)
phosphor112
Banned
So can we expect "step 3" next year? Or is that too far off?
Also, I wonder how long this type of design would help x86 retain Moore's Law. I feel like it'll be short lived, even with 3D stacked wafers.
Also, I wonder how long this type of design would help x86 retain Moore's Law. I feel like it'll be short lived, even with 3D stacked wafers.
That's what Amd claim, and for some reason or another, their apu roadmap seems like bang on target.
There's a Nvidia talk about moore's law, and how they are fighting a losing battle; He notes power limits, and shrinkage difficulties being the primary hardships, as well the markets changing.
Chip efficiencies/ optimisations is the way to go.
Okay now separate to all this power talk. I'm going to just throw out that maybe someone will do something with glasses, VR glasses so to speak.
Nintendo have shown their hand for next gen, and Microsoft seem to be going down Kinect 2.0.
I doubt there's much more you can do with Move, so I would have said Sony, except they are in financial difficulties.
So who knows, maybe Steambox.
VR glasses is really the only innovation I can think of, that is untouched by console firms.
Look this post up, in the future.
jeff_rigby
Banned
You're getting what I'm getting, the exploitation phase-SOC custom design phase is the 2014 design and manufactured in 2013 by the consortium. Full HSA to include GPU redesign and what else? 3D stacked memory.... Remember this is supposed to be their 2014-2020 building blocks for SOCs so higher than 4K resolution is probable but probably not possible without 3D stacked memory or ultra wide I/O 3D stacked which won't be available till 2013. All specs for the last 3 years had to work with slower memory so 2 interleaved DDR3 memory controllers to get enough bandwidth for 4K and their Infinity eye View.It could do, yeah. This is a step towards that.
And this is, in my view, more because of the updated gpu in Trnity (Northern islands (southern island integration next year).
With what we now 'know' about embedded being console chips, and not mobility, I don't have a clue as to what custom Jaguar chips are capable of.
We'll know more at Amd's summit in June, I'm sure.
This is from the desktop Llano chip, feature,
http://www.anandtech.com/show/4476/amd-a83850-review
(^^^ 2011)
(VVV 2012)
We're in step 2, optimisation, and step 3 should be the exploitation phase.
I don't think we have any idea of what's coming with the 2014 SOC design. For sure what Trinity has as a minimum.....AMD NEEDS Sony and Microsoft to use HSA and make it a Khronos standard, as such AMD will have an easier time getting into handhelds. Look at AMD and their emphasis on power usage and battery life. Take Trinity one more step down the reduced power ramp and it's viable beyond notebooks. HSA, fabric computing, OpenCL and HSAIL scale from Handhelds to super computers and that's the ISA and software platform that they are open standard supporting through Khronos.
Splitting up the GPU and CPU into separate building blocks can reduce costs by increasing yields, another thing not economically possible until the 2013 3D stacking goes on-line (starts 2st quarter 2012). So a new generation design in separate "process optimized" building blocks to be 2.5D assembled on substrate or Interposer. Reducing cost and time to market.
Your's right, it's 2 DDR3 2/3 interleaved.AlStrong said:
jeff_rigby
Banned
PS4 rumored to have other OS Linux support and at PS4 release a firmware update to the PS3 will enable Other OS Linux support.
http://sonyps4.com/os-support-feature-banned-and-the-ps4/
The second part, enabling other OS support for the PS3 would be a marketing (sales) effort or perhaps support for Linux.
Edit: Wayland/Westin 1.0 composition layer (using Cairo) instead of Xwindows due in a few months then GTK rewrites to optionally eliminate Xwindows GDK calls. Latest Linux kernel has now absorbed the Google Android Linux kernel changes that didn't use Xwindows and optimized to support embedded lower resource platforms. Latest Linux kernel is now smaller and faster. Rewrite for Glib to use Android D-Buss routines and more to make it faster and smaller. Combine them all and you have a smaller eLinux platform like Tizen or a optimized Gnome Mobile that can also be used for desktop.
Opinions?
http://sonyps4.com/os-support-feature-banned-and-the-ps4/
The first part, providing Linux support as Other OS in the PS4 makes sense as it did with the PS3, an effort to expose heterogeneous computing and Cell and with the PS4, to expose AMD's Open Source HSA and OpenCL to as many programmers as possible.
The second part, enabling other OS support for the PS3 would be a marketing (sales) effort or perhaps support for Linux.
Edit: Wayland/Westin 1.0 composition layer (using Cairo) instead of Xwindows due in a few months then GTK rewrites to optionally eliminate Xwindows GDK calls. Latest Linux kernel has now absorbed the Google Android Linux kernel changes that didn't use Xwindows and optimized to support embedded lower resource platforms. Latest Linux kernel is now smaller and faster. Rewrite for Glib to use Android D-Buss routines and more to make it faster and smaller. Combine them all and you have a smaller eLinux platform like Tizen or a optimized Gnome Mobile that can also be used for desktop.
Opinions?
blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
I'll believe SCE have sincere OtherOS intentions when I see the final product finishes its projected lifetime with this feature properly supported.
Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice..
jeff_rigby
Banned
Ashes1396 said:
Jeff_Rigby said:
Best guess Sony is disclosing what's possible next generation and may not announce the PS4. Also the PS3 and Vita are getting major firmware updates this year in a number of areas. PS3 advanced features but partially supported because of hardware limitations leads into full support with the PS4 (same for the Xbox360).http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=de&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://www.videogameszone.de/PlayStation-4-Misc-Hardware-220102/News/Playstation-4-PS4-E3-2012-Sony-881952/ said:
Sony countdown clock and E3 Live video
http://www.sceainvites.com/show.php
http://www.gametrailers.com/episode/bonusround/605?ch=1
systemfehler
Member
I do wish for that to happen - a open plattform with capable hardware. Let engineers, gamers, students, military use the power for whatever they like. Security wise I doubt a open plattform will lead to more piracy because a online activation to unlock the game, content, multiplayer will be used on many games. A open plattform might not be as interesting to "hackers" as a closed one (otherOS issue with PS3) and that might even help to detect and fix bugs even sooner.
tinfoilhatman
all of my posts are my avatar
PS4+Steam at this point would be the only things to get me to buy the next playstation.
H_Prestige
Banned
WTF does "ps4+steam" even mean? Makes about as much sense as "ps4+720".
With all due respect to deadlast.
PS4 will have Linux.
Steam is coming to Linux.
PS4 will have an x86 CPU.
PS4 = Steambox
Assuming the PS4 actually gets Linux, and also assuming it lets us use at least one of the GPUs this time, it should be able to run pretty much any PC game, either native Linux ones or through Wine or Dosbox. I'd be very pleasantly shocked if Sony tries again though.
iamshadowlark
Banned
Its its the only thing, but it would certainly get me to pay a lot more than I would for just a PS4. I have been wanting a Steambox for a while now, and I am getting close to just building an HTPC Steambox if E3 does not reveal anything.
iamshadowlark
Banned
Yea it makes no sense. Why would you want to play a steam port on the PS4? Almost any major game on steam is gonna have a ps4/xbox port that runs alot better.
For games that are PC only, or have ports for older systems, like the PS3 or PS2. And older games. Indie bundles as well, even if some of the games might have a PS4 port, chances are you're not going to get a PSN key with the bundle. PS4 with Linux should be able to run basically everything on gog.com, almost none of which has a PS3 port or will have a PS4 port.
Dorfdad
Gold Member
because alot of game support mouse and keyboard. This would allow them to port it easier from PC to Steambox where you can use a keyboard and mouse setup should you choose to.. Also PC games cost less..
H_Prestige
Banned
It's not in Sony's interest to put a competitor's gaming service on their gaming console. They get nothing from that, they only lose.
It doesn't make sense from a Steam fan's perspective either. Just use Steam on an actual PC. Isn't one of the draws being able to upgrade your hardware? You won't be able to upgrade your ps4. Also, Steam and Steam games only run on Windows and Mac. Doubt ps4 will be running either OS.
This exact feature is rumored for the ps4.