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IGN: Shawn Layden Talks About Why He Thinks the Japan Studio Closure 'Wasn't Necessarily a Surprise'

Thick Thighs Save Lives

NeoGAF's Physical Games Advocate Extraordinaire
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Former PlayStation boss Shawn Layden has been away from the company for five years now, but he's still got plenty to say about how things are going in Sony's gaming division. And in a recent interview at Gamescom Asia conducted by IGN Japan, he reflected on the 2021 reorganization and subsequent mass exodus of talent from Sony Japan Studio, giving a bit of context as to why he thinks the dissolution happened in the first place.

The remnants of Japan Studio were recentered around Astrobot developer Team Asobi, which later that year was moved into PlayStation Studios. Though Layden was not involved in any of the aforementioned decisions, having departed Sony in 2019, he still had thoughts on why the studio was effectively disbanded.

"That was sad," he said. "It wasn't necessarily a surprise. I love Allan [Becker, former head of Japan Studio], and he worked really hard, but there was so much legacy malaise. It's tough when a studio hasn't had a hit for a while, then they forget how that feels. You know, if you have a hit once it's it's like a drug, man, you're chasing the next one, right? And then if you don't have that for a while, you forget what it felt like, and then you start to forget how to get there.

"There were probably two roads. One was the road they took. The other road was a real tough-love program. And maybe that's what the Team Asobi thing is. It's like pruning a bonsai, right? You get it back down to its nub and see if you can grow back out again."

Layden is referring to Japan Studio's struggles to produce a hit in the years leading up to its dissolution. Though Astro Bot Rescue Mission was considered a success (and likely factored into the decision to retain Team Asobi), Japan Studio had otherwise largely been relegated to support work after 2017's Knack 2 release. Layden doesn't think this problem was exclusive to Japan Studio, though:

"And sadly, I think you can see that problem across the Japanese market," he continued. "Writ large, there's a lot of legacy, historically super talented teams that haven't tasted success for a while and are still struggling to get back to it.

"But, you know, Capcom is prosecuting that problem fairly directly. I think Sega finds itself in a pretty good place. Bandai Namco has got some refactoring to do. Koei Tecmo has its market, owns that market, and they seem happy with that...How many different versions of FF7 have been made?! Square Enix. I think when they abandoned their overseas developer/publisher ambitions and brought it back to home truths, that was a good move for them, but it'll still take a while for them to get out of the woods."

The trouble with Japanese development, said Layden, can be traced back to the PlayStation 3 generation. While Japanese teams like Square Enix, Namco, Konami, and Capcom owned the PlayStation 1 and 2 eras, the technical shift around the PS3 caused some legacy studios to struggle.

"In the PlayStation 1 era, Takara Tomi was making money back then," he said. "They basically took their experience in the arcade business and translated it to the home, right? That was the selling point. PlayStation 1, Ridge Racer in your house, Tekken in your house. But the way you develop an arcade experience is completely different from how you develop a console experience. Now, PlayStation 1, they just translated it, and that seemed to be enough, because it was novel.

"[But] that skill set and expertise didn't really translate into the console experience. And then when you got to PS3, and you had the Cell processor, and how do you code for that? And it was no longer an upgraded arcade experience, it was a high-end PC experience you're offering at home. And I think that's where the disconnect came for a lot of Japanese developers. And Japanese developers have been struggling ever since to try to get back to the top of the top of Olympus."

 

Gambit2483

Member
So they closed their Japan Studios because they didn't have a mega hit?? Japan Studios was never about producing mega hits but instead modest AA hits with modest AA budgets.

It was a way for Sony to diversify the Playstations portfolio and possibly fund their bigger AAA titles, which Layden himself admits is a dead end road (i.e. only focusing on AAA)

Sounds like a bunch of double talk this guy is doing
 
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nial

Gold Member
It's tough when a studio hasn't had a hit for a while, then they forget how that feels.
The problem is that they never had one for the most part.
Knack, Gravity Rush 2 and The Last Guardian were their biggest hits, and none sold above 2M, and even before Knack you already had almost a decade of flop after flop.
Knack 2 mega bombed, Fumito Ueda was already gone for 5 years by the time TLG released and Keiichiro Toyama probably had no idea what to do next; he left SIE in 2020.
 

nial

Gold Member
So they closed their Japan Studios because they didn't have a mega hit?? Japan Studios was never about producing mega hits but instead modest AA hits with modest AA budgets.

It was a way for Sony to diversify the Playstations portfolio and possibly fund their bigger AAA titles, which Layden himself admits is a dead end road (i.e. only focusing on AAA)

Sounds like a bunch of double talk this guy is doing
Japan Studio's AA games did even worse than their AAA games, I'm not even sure Puppeteer sold above 150-200K units.
Japan Studio's output was also pretty anemic compared to what SCEJ was doing in the PS2 era.
 

nial

Gold Member
Mister Layden has been speaking out quite a bit as of late. Japan Studio was a unique studio they should have kept. It added a more diverse portfolio of games to Playstation which is what has always made Playstation so unique.
They did:
43DPSI7.jpeg

I honestly thought people would drop the pointless Japan Studio talk once a new Astro Bot released, but I guess you can't underestimate the hate against Sony. :messenger_neutral:
 
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kaizenkko

Member
So they closed their Japan Studios because they didn't have a mega hit?? Japan Studios was never about producing mega hits but instead modest AA hits with modest AA budgets.

It was a way for Sony to diversify the Playstations portfolio and possibly fund their bigger AAA titles, which Layden himself admits is a dead end road (i.e. only focusing on AAA)

Sounds like a bunch of double talk this guy is doing
What do you consider a "hit"? Astro Bot is definitely a hit, but it is not a big budget project. I think a hit is just a big successful release. And he is right, the most successful game fully develop by Japan Studios in the last ten years is Astro Recue Mission. And Sony have keep the people who made this game.
 
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Woopah

Member
He's mostly right, the foundations of what is happening in the Japanese market and with Jaosnese publishers were laid in the late 00s.

Some have adapted better than others. As he says I think Capcom and KT are two who are doing particularly well (that's not to say others are all doing bad).
 

yurinka

Member
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Many things are wrong in that article and Shawn's words. Several of the Japanese companies he mentions are better than ever and kept growing during many years. As an example, Capcom's revenue is on their all time high and has been growing for over a decade.

Team Asobi never was moved to PlayStation Studios, it was one of the Japan Studio internal development teams, so already were inside PlayStation Studios and already were working in the same SIE Japan HQ building where still are today.

Same goes with the 2nd party publishing/support side of Japan Studios, that exists since 1993. They continue in doing the same job in that building since the restructuring. After the restructuring they released games like Death Stranding Director, Stellar Blade or Rise of the Ronin and are working in titles like Death Stranding 2, Physint, Convallaria or Lost Soul Aside.

There is no Japan Studio closure, they just restructured it instead as did many times before, when they changed the names of the teams, the studio, moved it from division or splitted or merged their two parts (internal development and 2nd party publishing/support).

So they closed their Japan Studios because they didn't have a mega hit?? Japan Studios was never about producing mega hits but instead modest AA hits with modest AA budgets.
They restructured Japan Studio, didn't close it. And yes, Japan Studio never had any mega hit. Pretty likely the most similar thing is Bloodborne, one of the 2nd party games they published, which in the long term sold 7M+ copies.
 
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Killer8

Gold Member
"In the PlayStation 1 era, Takara Tomi was making money back then," he said. "They basically took their experience in the arcade business and translated it to the home, right? That was the selling point. PlayStation 1, Ridge Racer in your house, Tekken in your house. But the way you develop an arcade experience is completely different from how you develop a console experience. Now, PlayStation 1, they just translated it, and that seemed to be enough, because it was novel.

"[But] that skill set and expertise didn't really translate into the console experience. And then when you got to PS3, and you had the Cell processor, and how do you code for that? And it was no longer an upgraded arcade experience, it was a high-end PC experience you're offering at home. And I think that's where the disconnect came for a lot of Japanese developers. And Japanese developers have been struggling ever since to try to get back to the top of the top of Olympus."

What a load of nonsense on multiple levels.

I can't even tell if he's making a comment about the style of an arcade game vs a console game, or if he's trying to make some hardware comparison since he starts blabbering about the Cell processor.

If he's talking about the former, why is there this gigantic fucking gap in his mind between simplistic PS1 launch titles like Ridge Racer and Tekken and PS3 games? Did he just gloss over the fact that Japan produced untold numbers of games in multiple genres throughout the PS1 and PS2 generation?

Yes, they struggled to get started in the PS3 gen, but as he points out that was the fault of Sony supplying them with the Cell processor. Getting to grips with coding for that piece of shit was a global problem and not exclusive to the Japanese. Many Japanese games performed just fine on the Xbox 360 (see Capcom's output).

His paper thin analysis also fails to consider a couple of things. Many Japanese developers went balls deep into the Wii and the DS during that generation, which probably stunted their experience with newer technology. Or else they went down the mobile and iPhone route. It was a completely different market landscape back then and by the time the late PS3 gen / early PS4 gen arrived, they had a lot of catching up to do.

It was also a software problem. Off the shelf engines like Unreal had poor Japanese support until Epic opened an office in Japan in 2010. Imagine coming from a country with less than 10% English fluency, trying to squash a bug affecting Ken Kutaragi's box of shit, but you can't understand the logs and the UE3 tech support is 13 hours behind you?

If he wants to talk hardware, Sega were working with Lindbergh arcade boards at the time which was basically a Windows embedded PC. So I don't understand his remark about PS3 being the "high-end PC experience". Sega even said that it was easier to port their games to the PS3 than the Xbox 360 because they both shared an Nvidia GPU. On the Namco side, the System 357 was quite literally a PS3 and its predecessor board was based on the PS2. Console and arcade hardware had been intertwined for a while.

And i'd make a strong argument that Japan has eclipsed the West in game quality for many years now. "ever since" my ass.
 
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jchung55

Member
They spent a decade trying to get Japan Studios in proper order, what more do people want?

I love the idea of GR but GR2 was a bad game, and I tried so hard to like it. Knack is a subpar platformer. Was Sony supposed to just keep them as a remake house to keep churning out remakes? There are cheaper ways to go about that.

I too lament the fact that Japan Studio is gone, but to place the blame solely on management is asinine. They just haven't produced a hit in a decade.
 

DeepEnigma

Gold Member
Many things are wrong in that article and Shawn's words. Several of the Japanese companies he mentions are better than ever and kept growing during many years. As an example, Capcom's revenue is on their all time high and has been growing for over a decade.

Team Asobi never was moved to PlayStation Studios, it was one of the Japan Studio internal development teams, so already were inside PlayStation Studios and already were working in the same SIE Japan HQ building where still are today.

Same goes with the 2nd party publishing/support side of Japan Studios, that exists since 1993. They continue in doing the same job in that building since the restructuring. After the restructuring they released games like Death Stranding Director, Stellar Blade or Rise of the Ronin and are working in titles like Death Stranding 2, Physint, Convallaria or Lost Soul Aside.

There is no Japan Studio closure, they just restructured it instead as did many times before, when they changed the names of the teams, the studio, moved it from division or splitted or merged their two parts (internal development and 2nd party publishing/support).
He works for a Chinese company now, he's going to attack or disparage Japanese companies.

Tencent will have gaming hardware in the near future, you watch.
 

Mibu no ookami

Demoted Member® Pro™
So they closed their Japan Studios because they didn't have a mega hit?? Japan Studios was never about producing mega hits but instead modest AA hits with modest AA budgets.

It was a way for Sony to diversify the Playstations portfolio and possibly fund their bigger AAA titles, which Layden himself admits is a dead end road (i.e. only focusing on AAA)

Sounds like a bunch of double talk this guy is doing

I knew as I was reading this people weren't going to like it. They like Shawn Layden when he says things that reinforce their worldview, but the second he says something real that isn't in line with that... "dude should stop talking."

It's absolutely a reality that PlayStation had close ties with Namco and there were arcade boards designed around PS1 and PS2. That stopped being the case with PS3 and building unique engines for every game in the HD era became fools game. Games were behind technically and if they didn't sell like their western counterparts, building a new engine for a new game was slow and technically inefficient.

It's why Konami dropped out of the AAA space and are still only farming out their games to western studios. It's why Capcom didn't have much success until they started making Monster Hunter and the RE remakes. Square Enix is still struggling and you've seen them move to Unreal Engine. Koei Tecmo's games are not technically proficient. Even FromSoftware games are riddled with technical issues, but they found a huge niche that sells mega levels.

Japan Studios AA and AAA games were not selling. The studio was not profitable and they were kept on a lifeline for a long time. Nicholas Doucet was head of the studio after Allan Becker and he was unable to turn it around, everyone loves him and Asobi now. No one blames him for Studio Japan closing down even though he was probably a big part of that. They decided to trim and start over and it worked...
 

Mibu no ookami

Demoted Member® Pro™
They spent a decade trying to get Japan Studios in proper order, what more do people want?

I love the idea of GR but GR2 was a bad game, and I tried so hard to like it. Knack is a subpar platformer. Was Sony supposed to just keep them as a remake house to keep churning out remakes? There are cheaper ways to go about that.

I too lament the fact that Japan Studio is gone, but to place the blame solely on management is asinine. They just haven't produced a hit in a decade.

Look at everyone who has left Japan Studio... games like Splitterhead look like complete disasters.

If Last Guardian had turned out differently, Japan Studio would probably still be around. Their last big game was SOTC in 2005... They gave them 16 years... That's almost enough time for a kid to be born and go through high school...
 

Killjoy-NL

Member
They spent a decade trying to get Japan Studios in proper order, what more do people want?

I love the idea of GR but GR2 was a bad game, and I tried so hard to like it. Knack is a subpar platformer. Was Sony supposed to just keep them as a remake house to keep churning out remakes? There are cheaper ways to go about that.

I too lament the fact that Japan Studio is gone, but to place the blame solely on management is asinine. They just haven't produced a hit in a decade.
People seem to forget that Sony is running a business, not some nostalgia-driven charity.
 

adamsapple

Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
Is he publishing a book or something? Can't figure out why he's suddenly back in the spotlight giving so many interviews / quotes.
 

Cyberpunkd

Gold Member
So you set the team up to fail by giving them support work, then you complain they didn’t produce a hit and in your hubris you link it to „forgetting what it feels like”?

What an absolutely terrible person.
 

Jigsaah

Gold Member
I mean Capcom just doesn't miss and hasn't for years it seems.

Wait, I thought of one...Exoprimal
 
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nial

Gold Member
So you set the team up to fail by giving them support work, then you complain they didn’t produce a hit and in your hubris you link it to „forgetting what it feels like”?

What an absolutely terrible person.
The support work (I would call it production work) was a whole different group/department that had mostly nothing to do with the internal development teams.
They're still producing games (like Rise of the Ronin and Stellar Blade this year), it's just the internal development department that was turned into Team Asobi.
 

Killjoy-NL

Member
So you set the team up to fail by giving them support work, then you complain they didn’t produce a hit and in your hubris you link it to „forgetting what it feels like”?

What an absolutely terrible person.
Did they even ever release a major hit?

And I'm not talking about titles that were critically acclaimed.
 

Jigsaah

Gold Member
The trouble with Japanese development, said Layden, can be traced back to the PlayStation 3 generation. While Japanese teams like Square Enix, Namco, Konami, and Capcom owned the PlayStation 1 and 2 eras, the technical shift around the PS3 caused some legacy studios to struggle.

Ok, where is the trouble with Japanese development NOW though? Is he only talking in reference to Japan Studio? Because from my perspective, Japanese devs been pumping out popular games in a lot of genres and spaces right now that I just can't get enough of.

Tekken 8
Street Fighter 6
Persona
Octopath Traveler
Final Fantasty Remake/Rebirth/16
Mana Series
Zelda
Elden Ring
Resident Evil

just to name a few. Does he not know Bandai Namco just released Sparking Zero?
 
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What a load of nonsense on multiple levels.

I can't even tell if he's making a comment about the style of an arcade game vs a console game, or if he's trying to make some hardware comparison since he starts blabbering about the Cell processor.

If he's talking about the former, why is there this gigantic fucking gap in his mind between simplistic PS1 launch titles like Ridge Racer and Tekken and PS3 games? Did he just gloss over the fact that Japan produced untold numbers of games in multiple genres throughout the PS1 and PS2 generation?

Yes, they struggled to get started in the PS3 gen, but as he points out that was the fault of Sony supplying them with the Cell processor. Getting to grips with coding for that piece of shit was a global problem and not exclusive to the Japanese. Many Japanese games performed just fine on the Xbox 360 (see Capcom's output).

His paper thin analysis also fails to consider a couple of things. Many Japanese developers went balls deep into the Wii and the DS during that generation, which probably stunted their experience with newer technology. Or else they went down the mobile and iPhone route. It was a completely different market landscape back then and by the time the late PS3 gen / early PS4 gen arrived, they had a lot of catching up to do.

It was also a software problem. Off the shelf engines like Unreal had poor Japanese support until Epic opened an office in Japan in 2010. Imagine coming from a country with less than 10% English fluency, trying to squash a bug affecting Ken Kutaragi's box of shit, but you can't understand the logs and the UE3 tech support is 13 hours behind you?

If he wants to talk hardware, Sega were working with Lindbergh arcade boards at the time which was basically a Windows embedded PC. So I don't understand his remark about PS3 being the "high-end PC experience". Sega even said that it was easier to port their games to the PS3 than the Xbox 360 because they both shared an Nvidia GPU. On the Namco side, the System 357 was quite literally a PS3 and its predecessor board was based on the PS2. Console and arcade hardware had been intertwined for a while.

And i'd make a strong argument that Japan has eclipsed the West in game quality for many years now. "ever since" my ass.
Don't tell that to the roaming zealots who want to memory hole this. They want to pretend Japan studio was never good and modern Sony is flawless/immune to criticism or
something like that. The gaslighthing is getting obnoxiously tiresome.

So you set the team up to fail by giving them support work, then you complain they didn’t produce a hit and in your hubris you link it to „forgetting what it feels like”?

What an absolutely terrible person.
Thank GIF


Finally, somebody said it. During/after the 7th gen they got the short end of the stick and got backseated while the western studios got elevated benefits and privileges. It was frustrating to watch.
 
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yurinka

Member
He works for a Chinese company now, he's going to attack or disparage Japanese companies.

Tencent will have gaming hardware in the near future, you watch.
Why would Tencent want to limit themselves to a single gaming hardware when they are now the top dog getting money from all gaming devices and not having to put money to build any of them?

They made $23B last year from gaming alone.

So you set the team up to fail by giving them support work, then you complain they didn’t produce a hit and in your hubris you link it to „forgetting what it feels like”?

What an absolutely terrible person.
That team still exists today and started in 1993. Always with a part that makes internally developed games and a part that publishes 2nd party games and supports them.

Sometimes these teams have been together, sometimes have been different teams, sometimes have been rebranded or moved to different divisions. But always working in the same SIE Japanese HQ building and doing these things: one part internally deevloping games and the other publishing and supporting 2nd party games.

Shawn never have been their boss and had any decision on what they do or did. In the time he hosted the E3 conferences, he wasn't in charge of SCE/SIE, or Worlwide Studios/PS Studios. He was the head of SCEA/SIE America, meaning the SCE/SIE sales and marketing regional subsidiary for America.

During around year and a half, until got fired and replaced by a cactus, he was chairman of Worldwide Studios / PS Studios, while Shuhei Yoshida was running Worldwide Studios as he did from 2008 until in late 2019 he moved away to create and lead PS Indies. Hermen replaced Yoshida as head of PS Studios.
 
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Killjoy-NL

Member
Don't tell that to the roaming zealots who want to memory hole this. They want to pretend Japan studio was never good and modern Sony is flawless/immune to criticism or
something like that. The gaslighthing is getting obnoxiously tiresome.
It's not about their games not being good, their games just didn't sell well enough.
 
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