Support NeoGAF

[Triumph]

I think the cyclical nature of the economy, the tech boom and 9/11 had the effect on the economy that it did... I think it would have been much worse if it wasnt for George W. Bush; unless there are actually people who think that 9/11, the giant fall from the unchecked tech boom, and the cyclical nature of the economy had nothing to do with those loss in jobs and recession?

i tend to view it as the recession would have been ALOT worse if it wasnt for Bush; and many others do too.

So sixteen years of failure with supply side, "voodoo" economics can't convince you. The inarguable fact that the CEO's are taking their tax cuts and NOT re-investing it in their companies can't convince you. The fact that the majority of the "jobs" created under Bush are in the unskilled food service and retail fields can't convince you.

If Bush were GOOD for the economy, something GOOD would have happened. Nothing has. Arguing that it could have been worse doesn't change the fact that it is revoltingly bad now. You have no leg to stand on in this argument.

 

[LuckyBrand]

So sixteen years of failure with supply side, "voodoo" economics can't convince you. The inarguable fact that the CEO's are taking their tax cuts and NOT re-investing it in their companies can't convince you. The fact that the majority of the "jobs" created under Bush are in the unskilled food service and retail fields can't convince you.

If Bush were GOOD for the economy, something GOOD would have happened. Nothing has. Arguing that it could have been worse doesn't change the fact that it is revoltingly bad now. You have no leg to stand on in this argument.

Okay.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

Who said they were impartial?

Why would you find 10 gay democrats that are voting for Bush? Are these 10 gay republicans?

Did I miss something here?

I believe the point is that just as Republican CEO soldiers seem unlikely to be Kerry voters, so would gay Democrats be likely Bush voters. Thus they'd work well in an opposite ad.

 

[MASB]

Politics= Religion ( to alot of people )

Probably the most honest post ever made in a GAF political topic. There are more than a few liberals (and people who share some of their views, but may not necessarily consider/call themselves liberals) that say they aren't religious or very little, but when they start talking about Bush, they do good imitations of fire and brimstone preachers with their views and antics and narrow-mindedness. The only difference is that their religion is politics and their crusade is against conservatives (or just anyone who disagrees with them in the slightest, while at the same time proclaiming how tolerant they are of other people's views). Of course, this also applies to more than a few conservatives (ones who don't have any real religious preferences, but are conservatives because of politics, economic views, etc.).

Honestly, this is the worst election since 1976 with Ford and Carter. Now it's 2004 with Bush and Kerry. I wish there was a box to check on the ballot that said "I vote that neither party's candidate is suitable. Let's get rid of the two and let the two parties try again and pick two other, hopefully better candidates."

 

[The Promised One]

I just get slightly pissed because of the hit and run argument style of those who lean to the right on this forum. Hell look at the response of both LuckyBrand the TPO in this thread. It gets frustrating when someone make claims and then refuses to back them up when called on them.

What "claims" am I making exactly? All I said was that I didn't care. Frankly, explaining my reasons for why I lean any particular way politically to a bunch of whiny forumers who can't fathom how everyone on the planet cannot or does not think exactly like them is pointless. Basically, it's a watse of time, that will only result in flames and morons saying that said person should be banned for not thinking like them.

 

[Triumph]

Probably the most honest post ever made in a GAF political topic. There are more than a few liberals (and people who share some of their views, but may not necessarily consider/call themselves liberals) that say they aren't religious or very little, but when they start talking about Bush, they do good imitations of fire and brimstone preachers with their views and antics and narrow-mindedness. The only difference is that their religion is politics and their crusade is against conservatives (or just anyone who disagrees with them in the slightest, while at the same time proclaiming how tolerant they are of other people's views). Of course, this also applies to more than a few conservatives (ones who don't have any real religious preferences, but are conservatives because of politics, economic views, etc.).

Honestly, this is the worst election since 1976 with Ford and Carter. Now it's 2004 with Bush and Kerry. I wish there was a box to check on the ballot that said "I vote that neither party's candidate is suitable. Let's get rid of the two and let the two parties try again and pick two other, hopefully better candidates."

Listen, I have kicked George W. Bush when he was on top of the world after September 11th. I have kicked him when he had a mandate, and I will not stop kicking him now that he has shown blood and weakness. The man is a failure of the worst kind as President, and if he is re-elected this country will be as far from a representative democracy as possibly imaginable in 2008.

As far as the lack of choice goes... there are other options. Almost all of them are better than Bush or Kerry, even that scum of a Libertarian Badnarik. I myself will be voting for Ralph Nader or Alfred E. Neuman on November 2nd. Almost any random asshole could do the job better than the two idiots that are running.

 

[cvkpaladin]

if he is re-elected this country will be as far from a representative democracy as possibly imaginable in 2008

I would love to see Bush re-elected just to see if only to see if what you say is true, or if you are just full of shit. Now, I'm not exactly a person whose going to vote for Bush, in fact far from it, but when people make some absurd comments like the one you just spewed forth, then it makes me wonder how deep your hatred for this man runs...

 

[Zaptruder]

I myself will be voting for Ralph Nader or Alfred E. Neuman on November 2nd.

Don't do this. Even if Kerry is a relatively bad candidate by any measure... you yourself acknowledge how completely crap George Bush is as a president.

Unless you can honestly see Nader winning the election, don't 'throw away' a vote that could help oust Bush from power.

It's really not about making a stand in the voting arena at this moment in time; the people that will feel the effect of that ill decision to throw away votes will be everyone, but the bush lovers. (well they'll feel it too; but they'll have their heads jammed up way too far up bushes ass to notice).

 

[Zaptruder]

I would love to see Bush re-elected just to see if only to see if what you say is true, or if you are just full of shit. Now, I'm not exactly a person whose going to vote for Bush, in fact far from it, but when people make some absurd comments like the one you just spewed forth, then it makes me wonder how deep your hatred for this man runs...

That's just stupid and petty. Yes its an extreme... but hey, when Bush was elected as president... I doubt many democrats could've forseen how badly things would fuck up with him in power. If you said that the economy would be in the shitter, that world opinion would be against the US, that there would instability exaccerbated by him... back in 2000, then I think someone would've reacted similarly (as you have done) against such a response against Bush.

Personally I think americans should be given an executive order to shoot themselves.

The ones left alive can deal with the country better.

 

[Azih]

TPO I included you in that post because of your "Nope, don't care" one-liner response to Ryck. Of course Ryck was talking to LuckyBrand at the time, but the refusal from both you and Lucky to expand on Lucky's one liner "pissed off Democrats" reply is what sticks in the craw.

 

[LuckyBrand]

That's just stupid and petty. Yes its an extreme... but hey, when Bush was elected as president... I doubt many democrats could've forseen how badly things would fuck up with him in power. If you said that the economy would be in the shitter, that world opinion would be against the US, that there would instability exaccerbated by him... back in 2000, then I think someone would've reacted similarly (as you have done) against such a response against Bush.

Personally I think americans should be given an executive order to shoot themselves.

The ones left alive can deal with the country better.

I still dont see why you guys attribute this to Bush.... you guys do realize that the recession started at the tail end of Clinton's term, no? You guys honestly think that by having the government overspend and giving tax cuts to people; that he actually made the economy WORSE? by putting MORE money into the system and having the government spend MORE than it ever has, the economy was in the shitter BECAUSE of him??? do you realize the folly of that thougth?

 

[sprsk]

gotta love that inflation.

 

[Santo]

I still dont see why you guys attribute this to Bush.... you guys do realize that the recession started at the tail end of Clinton's term, no? You guys honestly think that by having the government overspend and giving tax cuts to people; that he actually made the economy WORSE? by putting MORE money into the system and having the government spend MORE than it ever has, the economy was in the shitter BECAUSE of him??? do you realize the folly of that thougth?

The problem with that, you see, is if you give huge tax cuts to every single person, you’re gonna get in the hole. But instead of having a plan to get out of that hole, Bush got us more and more into the hole because he was so impetuous on going into Iraq. And ever since, instead of bringing us the least bit towards breaking even, it's gotten MUCH worse.

In an interview with Reuters, (Howard) Dean said the weak dollar was hurting the U.S. economy and again criticized Bush's tax cuts, saying they would only deter foreign investors.

"This president is essentially using Argentina as his fiscal model," Dean said, referring to the South American country's economic collapse last year.

"People are not going to invest in a country whose currency is dropping as rapidly as ours is relative to the euro, and they're not going to invest in a country that can't manage its affairs." (Howard Dean interview with Reuters, http://www.forbes.com/markets/bonds/newswire/2003/06/16/rtr1001727.html)

*Side note: the Euro is outweighing the dollar by 20% and has been for all of 2004. (http://www.xe.com/ucc/ - currency converter)

*Dollar is expected to fall even more, Bloomberg - August 9th 2004 (http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000103&sid=aP_xWCyHGkJc&refer=us)
“Traders grew more pessimistic on the dollar after government figures Friday showed employment growth eased for a fourth month in July.”

His economy tactics are sad to say the least, he has the biggest deficit ever (reached almost 400 billion with two months to go - http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/040812/federal_deficit_1.html), unemployment rates are at all time highs, the stock market is at the year’s lowest, new jobs are NOT being created fast enough (July’s 32,000 when 150,000 is needed for a healthy recovery, when over 200,000 was merely predicted). Even if you don’t blame Bush for the economy, what do you think about him constantly saying it’s improving and “getting stronger” (in which he has said for the past several years). If by getting stronger he means more people that were making $50k a year are working $8 an hour mindless jobs, barely being able to afford living, then yeah, I guess it is getting pretty strong in that there will soon be no middle class.

“We have a strong economy and it's getting stronger,” he claimed only hours after the jobless figures were released on August 6th.

This is bullshit. Consumer spending slowed during the second quarter, oil prices continue to rise, employers are leery of hiring new workers, the deficit grows, unemployment continues to dip, Iraq is an utter mess. How much more bad news do you want to be convinced we at least need someone else in office to take a stab at things?

But besides the economy, it’s funny how people overlook mis-doings of this administration. Prisoner abuse scandal, going to Iraq when there’s no WMDs, fudging the foreign policy, trying to amend the constitution for gay rights when there are much bigger concerns this administration should be worrying about. It all adds up, folks. Look at the bigger picture, do you really want this same man running the country - just like this - for four more years? I personally can not foresee a president in such a mess that Bush is/has been in for three years now.

 

[3rdman]

I still dont see why you guys attribute this to Bush.... you guys do realize that the recession started at the tail end of Clinton's term, no? You guys honestly think that by having the government overspend and giving tax cuts to people; that he actually made the economy WORSE? by putting MORE money into the system and having the government spend MORE than it ever has, the economy was in the shitter BECAUSE of him??? do you realize the folly of that thougth?

The trade defecit is at an all time high....$55.8 Billion
The Federal deficit is also at an all time high...$425 Billion
A mere 32,000 Jobs were created last. That far short of the 220,000 the Bush administration expected.
The overall income Americans reported to the government shrank for two consecutive years. Thats the first time that has happened since the modern tax system was introduced during World War II.
The unemployment rate is at 5.5% and Bush is danger of being the first president since Hoover to have a total net jobs loss since taking office.
According to a report from the US Congressional Budget Office (CBO), people who have a $1.2 million annual income benefited the most from the tax cuts and deductions passed from 2001 to 2003.

Yeah, Bush is great.

 

[VPhys]

What's the point of this thread?

Would you like me to find a Democrat who is voting for Bush?

doesn't exist.

 

[Zaptruder]

I still dont see why you guys attribute this to Bush.... you guys do realize that the recession started at the tail end of Clinton's term, no? You guys honestly think that by having the government overspend and giving tax cuts to people; that he actually made the economy WORSE? by putting MORE money into the system and having the government spend MORE than it ever has, the economy was in the shitter BECAUSE of him??? do you realize the folly of that thougth?

Firstly most of the money that goes to the people, goes to the rich.

Rich people are actually much more adept at holding onto their wealth then poor people; It's part of the reason why they're rich in the first place. So if you give X dollars to rich people, more of that money will be kept by the rich, to make them richer... which in turn doesn't stimulate economic growth; which alot of comes from the expenditure of lower and middle class.

Now. EVEN if you can say that he's stymied the worsening of the economy during this downturn (which IMO he hasn't; infact has made worse by a huge amount)...

You can't deny the huge massive hole he has put into the national budget. This means he's raped and plundered the social security; in a couple decades, when Bush will have been long out of power regardless, they'll be alot of people in dire straits because the money that was entitled to them, just won't be there.

So even if you think he does well for the country in the short term... to overlook the fact he's gouging out holes out of peoples future... to vote him in for another 4 years to let him continue the damage, instead of voting him out now, for a good chance at, at least stemming the tide of the damage, if not repairing some of it... is a huge crime; It's that kind of short sightedness that has lead to so many problems in the world, and will continue to do so, until there's a genuine cultural shift that promotes that long term thinking.

 

[Hitokage]

Any claim that Bush's tax cuts were keynesian expansionist deficit spending for the recession is bullshit. Bush's utter insistence that his tax cuts remain permanent refute it more than anything.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

doesn't exist.

Millions of Democrats voted for Bush in 2000; doubt it will be completely different now. Unless you consider a registered Democrat who votes for Bush not really a Democrat.

 

[EviLore]

i made a claim, which is true, about myself... why do i need to explain myself to a bunch of you douches.. because you say so?

This, plus your other trollish stuff in the thread. Enjoy your trip.

 

[TekunoRobby]

I'm an artist by trade (CG and traditional painting), I have a huge passion for the arts and animation, I'm of European descent, I love all cultures and try to expose myself to them as often as possible, I'm also the CEO of my own company.

I'm also Conservative and I'm voting for Bush.

 

[Drinky Crow]

You mean you're voting conservative because you're tired of know-it-all liberals relishing the fact that Bush's pseudo-conservative principles have been exposed as the selfish and hateful hypocrisy they are.

 

[TekunoRobby]

I've always been Conservative (well since I've become interested in politics). It just happens to fit my political beleifs and nothing more. I don't happen to go down a checklist whenever I vote for someone no matter the position. Be it Conservative or Liberal I try to do an honest job of listening and researching their platform. I have equal respect for both sides of the political machine and their candidates. No foaming-at-the-mouth insanities like many of the contributers here seem to portray.

Your statement is wonderfully entertaining however. God I detest the horde sometimes, makes it hard to justify any replies with such moronic banter.

 

[Drinky Crow]

So why do you think Bush fits those "conservative" principles?

 

[Zaptruder]

I've always been Conservative (well since I've become interested in politics). It just happens to fit my political beleifs and nothing more. I don't happen to go down a checklist whenever I vote for someone no matter the position. Be it Conservative or Liberal I try to do an honest job of listening and researching their platform. I have equal respect for both sides of the political machine and their candidates. No foaming-at-the-mouth insanities like many of the contributers here seem to portray.

Your statement is wonderfully entertaining however. God I detest the horde sometimes.

State what your beliefs are and state what you believe Bush has done to fufill those beliefs of yours.

 

[CrimsonSkies]

"No foaming-at-the-mouth insanities like many of the contributers here seem to portray."

Emotion fuels the engine for some.

 

[TekunoRobby]

Emotion fuels the engine for some.

I was also being vague to be respectful, both sides are responsible for it. Whether it happens on this forum or not I've seen worst-case scenarios for many political sides (not just Liberal and Conservative).

 

[Drinky Crow]

quoth I:

You mean you're voting conservative because you're tired of know-it-all liberals

quoth TekunoRobby in response:

God I detest the horde sometimes

Tee hee.

 

[TekunoRobby]

Fucking awesome, making jabs at vague quotes makes me a hardass poster!

SHIT HOW CAN I LEARN FROM YOU?

I NEED TO INCREASE MY ELO, LOL LOL.

Edit: If you got the ELO joke Drinky you rock. Rainbow Six makes me weep.

 

[Drinky Crow]

pwn3d!

 

[Manabanana]

Anyone here seen Outfoxed? I think the Fox News Network is the basis for the majority of arguments put forth by Republicans.

 

[firex]

I'm voting for Al Sharpton.

 

[cvkpaladin]

That's just stupid and petty. Yes its an extreme... but hey, when Bush was elected as president... I doubt many democrats could've forseen how badly things would fuck up with him in power. If you said that the economy would be in the shitter, that world opinion would be against the US, that there would instability exaccerbated by him... back in 2000, then I think someone would've reacted similarly (as you have done) against such a response against Bush.

Like I said, I won't vote for Bush and I think he has done a pretty terrible job as my President. I was just saying that even if Bush does get re-elected, the world will not end, the gates to hell will not open, and life will still go on. People make it seem that if Bush gets a 2nd term, then the world will be d00med. Its these outlandish comments that really make me think if people actually believe some of the B.S. they say... I will end with, if Bush wins, late night wins.

 

[xsarien]

I'm also Conservative and I'm voting for Bush.

Going by traditional standards, Bush isn't very conservative (a bit of an understatement), I'd be interested in knowing what it is about him or his policies that you like so much.

 

[Zaptruder]

Like I said, I won't vote for Bush and I think he has done a pretty terrible job as my President. I was just saying that even if Bush does get re-elected, the world will not end, the gates to hell will not open, and life will still go on. People make it seem that if Bush gets a 2nd term, then the world will be d00med. Its these outlandish comments that really make me think if people actually believe some of the B.S. they say... I will end with, if Bush wins, late night wins.

The world won't end. But it will definetly be a worse place for alot of people. If impassioned pleas could help change that... then why not? But it tends to have the unfortunate effect of polarizing; people... just as a function of been people would rather die hard then admit wrong. Bastards. THE LOT OF YA!

 

[Willco]

I'm a registered Republican voting for Kerry.

 

[GG-Duo]

It would not surprise me to see a high number of people moving away from the US if Bush is re-elected. Bush's re-election doesn't mean that much in the short term, but I would imagine that it would probably affect the world (for the worse, imo) significantly in the long run.

But, uh, Thom Yorke will probably make some good and dark music if Bush gets re-elected.

 

[cvkpaladin]

The world won't end. But it will definetly be a worse place for alot of people. If impassioned pleas could help change that... then why not? But it tends to have the unfortunate effect of polarizing; people... just as a function of been people would rather die hard then admit wrong. Bastards. THE LOT OF YA!

This is true.

It would not surprise me to see a high number of people moving away from the US if Bush is re-elected

I remember people saying that last election as well -- one being, movie star, Alec Baldwin. I believe he still resides here in the states...

 

[Drinky Crow]

I doubt anyone will move if Bush wins again. If Nixon couldn't empty the country, Junior won't either.

 

[Cerebral Palsy]

Going by traditional standards, Bush isn't very conservative (a bit of an understatement), I'd be interested in knowing what it is about him or his policies that you like so much.

He is part of the Republican party. Hate it break it you, but the majority of people into politics are fucking sheep. They aren't voting on the person, they're voting for their party. Really, all of Bush's wrong doings aside, he is still a fucking moron. Blows my mind anyone could want a man, with what seems to be a 4th grade education, representing our country.

 

[The Promised One]

TPO I included you in that post because of your "Nope, don't care" one-liner response to Ryck. Of course Ryck was talking to LuckyBrand at the time, but the refusal from both you and Lucky to expand on Lucky's one liner "pissed off Democrats" reply is what sticks in the craw.

My response was to the initial post, as in the thread starters first post. And even if it wasn't, why should anyone have to explain themselves to you? What good would it do? NONE!

You're just as close-minded as you think everyone else is.

 

[Azih]

Dude this is a forum for discussion. Lack of response to talking points kills discussion. Which is what I am here for. I don't care whether or not somebody is explaining themselves to me but I do care when somebody doesn't respond to a point someone else has raised. (And I apologise for assuming you were talking to Ryck, but still the one liner complaint I had about your post still holds)

And where oh where did I say I thought anybody was close minded? I just didn't (and still don't) particularly agree with Lucky's description of himself as 'socially liberal'. And Lucky hasn't given me any reason to change my mind. I'm just irritated now that some people have this idea that Lucky was being lynched or something in this thread when all that was happening was discussion. YES Cerebral Palsy implied that Lucky was a retard where he shouldn't have, but Vibri and I wanted to talk about what he meant by 'socially liberal' and I for one got impatient when he didn't and hid behind the "I don't have to explain myself to you" defense.

 

[maharg]

I too find the claim of social liberalism confusing. I don't think the first things most people think of along those lines are seperate-but-equal rights and the preservation of religious institutions in government or being anti-abortion.

 

[The Promised One]

Dude this is a forum for discussion. Lack of response to talking points kills discussion. Which is what I am here for. I don't care whether or not somebody is explaining themselves to me but I do care when somebody doesn't respond to a point someone else has raised. (And I apologise for assuming you were talking to Ryck, but still the one liner complaint I had about your post still holds)

And where oh where did I say I thought anybody was close minded? I just didn't (and still don't) particularly agree with Lucky's description of himself as 'socially liberal'. And Lucky hasn't given me any reason to change my mind. I'm just irritated now that some people have this idea that Lucky was being lynched or something in this thread when all that was happening was discussion. YES Cerebral Palsy implied that Lucky was a retard where he shouldn't have, but Vibri and I wanted to talk about what he meant by 'socially liberal' and I for one got impatient when he didn't and hid behind the "I don't have to explain myself to you" defense.

Sorry about the close-minded statement, I was just trying to point out that all of us, have shit, and it all stinks.

I still don't see what good it would do to explain one's opinions, especially politically (and more so religiously), whether someone else makes a "point" or not. There are plenty of times that I don't bother responding to "points", simply because a particular point made makes it obvious that responding is pointless. I've learned that arguing online, 99.9% of the time, is nothing but a waste of time. So usually, I'll just state my opinion, and leave it at that.

The second I let people that I don't even know in real life, and only on a forum, have some effect on my real life, I've lost. If people on forums were actually open-minded, and willing to truthfully consider what others say, then I'd be much more vocal. Unfortunately though, after years of foruming, I've found that you're more likely to find a member of the Taliban leading a Woman's Rights convention.

 

[Cerebral Palsy]

Sorry about the close-minded statement, I was just trying to point out that all of us, have shit, and it all stinks.

I still don't see what good it would do to explain one's opinions, especially politically (and more so religiously), whether someone else makes a "point" or not. There are plenty of times that I don't bother responding to "points", simply because a particular point made makes it obvious that responding is pointless. I've learned that arguing online, 99.9% of the time, is nothing but a waste of time. So usually, I'll just state my opinion, and leave it at that.

If it is a waste of time backing up your claims/views, then it was surely a HUGE waste of time expressing them in the first place. Weak ass excuse.

The second I let people that I don't even know in real life, and only on a forum, have some effect on my real life, I've lost. If people on forums were actually open-minded, and willing to truthfully consider what others say, then I'd be much more vocal. Unfortunately though, after years of foruming, I've found that you're more likely to find a member of the Taliban leading a Woman's Rights convention.

What does explaining your stance have to do with letting someone else have an affect your life? Seriously, if you don't want to explain yourself, don't speak up in the first place.

 

[maharg]

Ok, so you feel that letting people have an effect on your life means you 'lose' (what?), yet you claim others are closed minded? Um.

 

[The Promised One]

If it is a waste of time backing up your claims/views, then it was surely a HUGE waste of time expressing them in the first place. Weak ass excuse.

What does explaining your stance have to do with letting someone else have an affect your life? Seriously, if you don't want to explain yourself, don't speak up in the first place.

Don't you just love Freedom of Speech. I know I do.

 

[Cerebral Palsy]

Don't you just love Freedom of Speech. I know I do.

What does sounding intelligent have to do with freedom of speech? Yes, even the moronic (i.e. Bush) get to say what is on their mind.

 

[Auron]

I've never voted Democrat anything, but I'm voting for Kerry this time. Bush is putting the entire country out of business.

 

[The Promised One]

What does sounding intelligent have to do with freedom of speech? Yes, even the moronic (i.e. myself) get to say what is on their mind.

Um....nevermind.

 

[Cerebral Palsy]

Um....nevermind.

Yeah, nevermind. People need to give an intelligent response, or not debate at all.