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[Prospero]

So last night I started learning how to play Hearts of Iron, and I was thinking that this is probably the most hardcore game I've ever played. This game is no joke:

Hovering your cursor over just about any pixel on the screen brings up a help balloon, and if you keep the cursor there, then a second help balloon appears in order to explain what's in the first help balloon. I fully expect to take a week studying the manual and tutorial before I can begin to play.

Anyway, this made me think that we all probably have different opinions about what a "hardcore" game is, even though we all use the word and expect everyone to know what we're talking about. So what do you think makes a game hardcore? Is it:

--a steep learning curve? (Like Hearts of Iron, or Europa Universalis 2?)

--But what if the steep learning curve doesn't really contribute anything to the strategic complexity in the end? (Disgaea would be my example for this--for an SRPG it's pretty hard to learn, but once you get the ruleset, the strategy boils down to little more than simple level-grinding. It's a niche game, but is it "stritcly for the hardcore," as a lot of reviews said?)

--Or what if a game has a simple ruleset, but extreme difficulty? (Think of Super Monkey Ball 1 on Expert, or Ikaruga. You can learn how to play those in two minutes, but beating them is a different matter.)

--Or is it not the game that's necessarily hardcore, but the player? (For instance, is time-attacking Super Mario Bros. hardcore?)

--Lastly, if you had to pick the single most hardcore game you've ever played (just one, not a long list), what would it be?

 

[Bob White]

I think one of the most hardcore acts in gaming, that doesn't really get noticed, is beating someone who is REALLY good at a fighting game. Playing someone who's just outright a murderer in a fighter can be as hard as anything a dev can cook up.

 

[ge-man]

I think the examples you gave are all valid ways of characterzing what is hardcore, though I think the best way going about making a hardcore game is making an easy to learn but hard to master experince.

I can't think of just one game that I would call the most hardcore, however. I guess the most recent one for me would be F-Zero GX. The mechanics are simple, but the game makes great demands of you with diffcult track designs and suicidal AI. There's no way a person can go very far in the game without learning out boost smartly, drift, and take out competitors without setting your ownself back.

 

[Prospero]

I think the examples you gave are all valid ways of characterzing what is hardcore, though I think the best way going about making a hardcore game is making an easy to learn but hard to master experince.

That's one reason I think that Super Monkey Ball 1 is one of the best designed games this gen--it has an amazingly well thought-out learning curve that makes everyone happy. Casuals can get a lot of fun out of the beginner and possibly the advanced levels, but by the time you get to the Expert and Master levels it's absolutely punishing.

 

[Bizarro Sun Yat-sen]

--a steep learning curve? (Like Hearts of Iron, or Europa Universalis 2?)

--But what if the steep learning curve doesn't really contribute anything to the strategic complexity in the end? (Disgaea would be my example for this--for an SRPG it's pretty hard to learn, but once you get the ruleset, the strategy boils down to little more than simple level-grinding. It's a niche game, but is it "stritcly for the hardcore," as a lot of reviews said?)

--Or what if a game has a simple ruleset, but extreme difficulty? (Think of Super Monkey Ball 1 on Expert, or Ikaruga. You can learn how to play those in two minutes, but beating them is a different matter.)

All of the above. Hardcore games are those that appeal primarily to people who put more time or effort or energy or whatever into games than the average person, so being difficult, complex or time-consuming, or having a more obscure appeal (e.g. a licensed sports game is prima facie less hardcore than some abstract strategy game due to its obvious surface appeal for a mass of sports fans) all contribute to a game's hardcore quotient. Hardcore is a value-neutral term; it doesn't describe the quality or worth of a game, only the dedication of its primary audience. (MMORPGs like Everquest are obviously pretty hardcore games based simply on the enormous amounts of time many players spend on them)

 

[XS+]

I think one of the most hardcore acts in gaming, that doesn't really get noticed, is beating someone who is REALLY good at a fighting game. Playing someone who's just outright a murderer in a fighter can be as hard as anything a dev can cook up.

That's not as impressive as beating a master several times. If you really know what you're doing (not even if you're an expert or anything) it's pretty hard to go undefeated in a series of 1-on-1 matches, no matter how good the opponent is.

 

[Ranger X]

I would say "a game has a simple ruleset, but extreme difficulty"

My most hardcore game that i own is Batman And Robin on the Genesis ---- this bitch is one of the hardest games ever. What's more, i'm not the god of Contra style...

 

[Prospero]

Hardcore is a value-neutral term; it doesn't describe the quality or worth of a game, only the dedication of its primary audience.

This is often true, but is it always true? It's true that some games that I'd consider to be crap have a hardcore following. But do those hardcore gamers themselves play a crap game fully realizing it's crap, or because they think it's brilliant, but the foolish general public just doesn't "get" it?

Exhibit A--P. N. 03. A mediocre shooter with downright primitive level design and wonky controls that isn't really all that hard, but I've seen several people defended it against all comers because it was a "hardcore" time-attack shooter. And if you didn't get the meme: well, you weren't hardcore enough.

Sometimes there's a certain perceived exclusivity to hardcore status that often tricks gamers to put up with flaws in a game in order to feel a certain exclusive status. Sometimes marketers can even manage to tap into this--Disgaea (which is a good game, but which isn't hardcore in my book despite its reputation) falls into this category.

 

[MrAngryFace]

Hearts of Iron isnt Hardcore, its just a Bearded-Man Strategy Game.

 

[Prospero]

All Bearded-Man Strategy Games are hardcore by definition. This is indisputable.

Also, all Bearded-Man Flight Sims like Falcon 4.0 are hard-freakin'-core.

 

[MonkeyBoy]

i think it is the amzement of how many impossible B.S. levels you have to go through without having any passwords or level jumps so as to be kicking your system against the tv only relying on a damn game genie to allow you to do what the game is supposed to do in the first place!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! did anyone ever play spawn for super nintendo?

 

[BlackSalad]

Also, all Bearded-Man Flight Sims like Falcon 4.0 are hard-freakin'-core.

I'd have to agree with that post

someone can "make" a game hardcore, for example, trying to achieve the status of Jedi Knight on star wars galaxies.

But then in the same game they can just be some average-joe gamer

 

[Matt]

When a game is harder to play then it is to make the money required to buy the game, that’s hardcore.

 

[DCharlie]

"All Bearded-Man Strategy Games are hardcore by definition. This is indisputable.
Also, all Bearded-Man Flight Sims like Falcon 4.0 are hard-freakin'-core."

Nope, they are classed under the category "PC Dad".

 

[miyuru]

You guys have it all wrong. All you need are ninjas, pirates, and the president's daughter.

 

[MoxManiac]

Bearded-Man Strategy Games rock!