Incest "a fundamental right", says German Ethics Council
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AnathemicOne
Banned
I side with Germany on this, two consenting adults want to have relationship then let them, be it brother/sister, cousins, etc.
Sakura
Member
So, it's ok for a child to be born disabled and have to live that life, because their parents were disabled, and it's their right to have a child.
But it's not ok for an incestuous couple to have a kid, because the kid might be born with defects.
What the hell is the difference? The end result is the same. In the case of the incestuous couple you're worried about the child, while in the case of the disabled couple you're more worried about their right to have a kid.
I don't think it's cold. I don't think it is cruel. After all we are worried about the kid are we not?
Maintenance
Member
I'm not going to judge two consenting adults, they should be allowed do to what they want if it doesn't hurt or put others into risk (and yes, I understand the slightly higher % of birth defects). Now, parent/children I would have to think more.
Financial penalty. You know, like they do in China.
jonnyp
Member
Yup, and that's why it should not be legal.
block tower
Member
gives new meaning to family game nights. bet naked twister gets more popular.
No it comes indirectly from being related. Two related people could have nearly a ZERO chance of genetic defect/deformity while two unrelated people could have an EXTREMELY HIGH chance of genetic defect/deformity. It depends mostly on the genetics.
Genetic deformities don't occur because two people who have a lot of genes in common mate. I think you're misinterpreting a lot of the facts and using them to support arguments that they don't support.
I will agree that two relatives who mate have a higher chance of deformities than non-relatives who mate. Their relationship to each other isn't the cause of the deformities though.
ChoklitReign
Member
See, this is why I oppose B/S incest - if genetics is against it, so am I.
Incest is not causing disabilities. Disabilities are more likely to manifest if both parents have genetic defects, and with siblings, they're more likely to have the same defects so the kids will almost certainly have defects as well, but that's it. If incest should be illegal because the kids might end up being disabled, no disabled person should be allowed to have kids - incestous or not. That's also Ethics Coucil's reasoning.
Sho_Nuff82
Member
It's one of the most selfish things you can do to your potential offspring, and on a macro scale you are literally weakening the gene pool. I see no good reason to allow it on the grounds of personal freedom.
It's only a matter of time before incest and polygamy laws fall as well. The argument will be that the government has no business telling consenting adults who they can or cannot marry.
Disgusting as shit. I mean seriously. We're talking about legalizing father's sleeping with their daughters, mother's with sons, brother and sister etc. Just disgusting. Probably has to do with the fact incest is sort of being normalized/shown on a lot of shows recently too. Game of Thrones, Boardwalk Empire etc.
Disgusting as shit. I mean seriously. We're talking about legalizing father's sleeping with their daughters, mother's with sons, brother and sister etc. Just disgusting. Probably has to do with the fact incest is sort of being normalized/shown on a lot of shows recently too. Game of Thrones, Boardwalk Empire etc.
No, the parent/offspring shit can easily be considered a situation impossible to give consent in, so can easily stay illegal. No different to student/teacher relationships. As for polyamorous relationships, why shouldn't three people that love each other be able to do so?
Healthy incestuous parent will have healthy children, but healthy people usually aren't incestuous.
I just can't support it due to so many factors being a negative. Parental incest is an absolute no-no since it's a huge abuse of trust and position. Older sibling/young sibling is completely inappropriate since it could involve abuse of power as well. Same age sibling? While technically not harmful if they don't have children, I still feel there's something wrong when two siblings are wanting to have a relationship.
They also should be banned from having children due to the health risks which is the most obvious.
They also should be banned from having children due to the health risks which is the most obvious.
I'll just say my viewpoint on life in general. Everyone should be free to do whatever they want with their lives, as long as theyre not harming others.
Now it could be argued that there is potential harm in any resulting offspring but that is true for many such other cases as well as all disabled people.
Morally, I think people in incestous relationships should not have children but I don't think that it should be criminal.
Now it could be argued that there is potential harm in any resulting offspring but that is true for many such other cases as well as all disabled people.
Morally, I think people in incestous relationships should not have children but I don't think that it should be criminal.
Yeah, I can't buy that there is no potential for some weird power abuse or conditioning even in this case. From my understanding, Patrick S met his sister when she was 16 and he was 24. That's not nearly the "adults raised separately" narrative I think they'd like to portray.
I don't see very compelling arguments for incest, to be honest. This is a law that, while discriminatory, is such to so small a degree. The law limits an individual from... on average two people of half the world's population that they can have a relationship with? I'd rather the extraordinarily rare case of two adults raised 100% without any conditioning or power abuse be forced to find other partners if it means protecting those that are abused.
I feel pretty confident those rare people can find someone else to love.
Incest is disgusting to me. But I also have no issue with two consenting adults being in love. It's their choice. The only issue I have, is the problems that arise with incestuous breeding. Which is why I think laws should exist to prevent that (I do think we have a responsibility in that regard). That said, not everyone wants kids. So....
EDIT: I don't mean parental incest. I'm talking about grown adults having that relationship. But yeah, incest usually doesn't just randomly happen when people are adults. It seems to be a complex thing that can happen within a family at various ages. And yeah, it's worrisome how it can be a form of abuse.
EDIT: I don't mean parental incest. I'm talking about grown adults having that relationship. But yeah, incest usually doesn't just randomly happen when people are adults. It seems to be a complex thing that can happen within a family at various ages. And yeah, it's worrisome how it can be a form of abuse.
Cousins, I can deal with. Siblings, ugh that's so wrong but whatever, what adults do with their lives is their business.
But mother/father with their fucking children? No. No way should that ever be seen as okay.
How the hell can you raise a child, your freaking baby and decide you're going to pursue a relationship with them? That's so gross. And I have no doubt that the parent would have had to influence their child to think this is okay. It's evil and should be illegal.
The other cases, they should be legal. Cousins and as gross as it is to me, siblings, at least stand the chance of being more innocent, unlike parents who think it's okay to convince their kids to engage with them in sexual relations. Fucking gross.
But mother/father with their fucking children? No. No way should that ever be seen as okay.
How the hell can you raise a child, your freaking baby and decide you're going to pursue a relationship with them? That's so gross. And I have no doubt that the parent would have had to influence their child to think this is okay. It's evil and should be illegal.
The other cases, they should be legal. Cousins and as gross as it is to me, siblings, at least stand the chance of being more innocent, unlike parents who think it's okay to convince their kids to engage with them in sexual relations. Fucking gross.
Murder. She Wrote
Member
Parents and children is a definite no, even if everyone involved is adult. The problem with siblings, and incest in general, is that it doesn't typically start with two consenting adults. It starts at a young age or during puberty and there's always one who wants it more. See the problem?
Yeah agreed. Plus the parent/child relationship is a situation where abuse and manipulation can take place, given the roles within the family (the power roles). I personally have no issue with Sibling if it was a mutual thing, and not born out of abuse (again, where one sibling uses their position within the family).
I personally think it's gross. But as long as they are consenting adults, then let them do what they want to do.
My only issue is the breeding aspect of it.
Yeah definitely the problem, well said. If siblings just happened to get to adult hood, and fall in love, okay. If two siblings mutually fell in love...er okay. But you are right that often this relationship is born out of abuse or manipulation of power roles. So yeahhhhh.
Hoya Destroyer
Member
Yeah, I agree with this. I find the whole thing disgusting, but I dont think people should be fined or do prison time for it.
I know lots of foreign cultures where marrying your cousin is extremely common. Its still gross though :/
-Plasma Reus-
Service guarantees member status
I suppose disabled individuals wouldn't be allowed to reproduce as well according to some of the arguments we are making here.
People seem rather obsessed with the whole gene pool thing. Homosexuality, actually reduces the gene pool, but people have nonetheless the right to be homosexual if they have been born that way. None of us should be judging what happens between two consenting adults.
People seem rather obsessed with the whole gene pool thing. Homosexuality, actually reduces the gene pool, but people have nonetheless the right to be homosexual if they have been born that way. None of us should be judging what happens between two consenting adults.
I think insect is kind of gross honestly but if cousins or even brother and sister want to have a relationship, I don't have an issue with that though I don't think they should be allowed to have children. That's just too much of a health risk to allow that to happen.
I do have an issue with a parent having a relationship with their child though. I just find it to be very selfish and so manipulative that I think it should be illegal for a parent to have any kind of sexual relationship with their child.
I do have an issue with a parent having a relationship with their child though. I just find it to be very selfish and so manipulative that I think it should be illegal for a parent to have any kind of sexual relationship with their child.
But the reason it's illegal is NOT that they have a higher chance to produce disabled offspring. The law specifies that vaginal intercourse (and only vaginal intercourse!) is illegal, children aren't even mentioned. The reason is because people think it's icky, with or without children. I'm nor even sure people knew of generics when the law was created, it's really old.
No, I will never take a stand against that because it would affect many not related couples as well, some people carry genetic defects that while not affecting themselves have the chance of up to 50% to produce a disabled child. We explicitely allow those people to procreate and make it their choice if they want to take the risk, the argument that incest should be banned because of a higher chance to have disabled children evaporates at that point because if that was a problem it should be illegal all the time and not just when society doesn't approve of the parent's relationship.
How do you know that, what if the mother has a condition that would lead to probably disabled children with another partner too?
It's not even true that two siblings with no genetic predispositions will have a greater risk of having disabled children. The reason incest couples have a higher risk is because an existing genetic predisposition is more likely to show up in the other sibling as well, of there's none then the chance is the same.
BTW, incest couples also have a higher chance to pass on positive traits for the same reason, they're more likely to show up in both parents.
But according to wikipedia "In 2004, Patrick Stübing voluntarily underwent a vasectomy.[4]", so the argument about potential children doesn't even apply to them anymore, they took care of that. If they want to fuck, let them fuck, they're not hurting anyone.
So you say handycapped (from birth) people shouldnt be allowed to have children?
I still need to know: If Doom_Bringer was sleeping on the balcony, and his sister was sleeping on the couch, who was sleeping in the bedroom?
Sometimes, I'm not even sure how to proccess such bizzare conversations on GAF. Did he really get banned for that? He seemed to clarify further down -- bah, whatever. I dont need to know the exact reasoning behind a ban.
BladeoftheImmortal
Member
i think we can all agree there's not enough porn on this issue to come to a conclusive agreement.
Jedeye Sniv
Banned
I don't think the act itself should be illegal, but I do not think siblings should be able to have kids under any circumstances, it's just too risky.
Hmm really good points. I agree that a lot of the stigma around incest is about it being "gross". The idea of inter-relationships within direct blood related family is what really grosses people. And a lot of these laws seem to be based on that vs. for the greater good w/ genes etc.
I've already outlined why I personally think it's gross (I. I admit that it's a bias in that, I've been raised in a culture that finds it gross. Naturally, I can't help but think it's gross. II. I have issues about the complex relationship/roles within a family unit, and how incest can be apart of abuse and or, someone abusing their family role during puberty, and that impacting someone's psyche).
So I still find the idea of it very problematic. But in terms of two consenting adults, I see nothing wrong with it per se (even if I personally find it weird).
I would however like to say, many people (even today) are raised on the idea that homosexuality is disgusting. In fact, even people that support gay rights, can often say they find the idea of homosexual sex to be "gross"...because they were raised on the idea it's gross. It's ingrained. I sometimes wonder if the same logic can be applied to incest.
When I ask myself, why exactly it's gross...I can't really come up with a logical answer. On the surface, it's..well it's because it's your family. Family shouldn't be romantic. But I dunno, is that a valid argument? (When it's two consenting adults that are in love?) I guess I'll go back to what I said before, that I personally think a lot of incest is born from abuse. And because of the nature of family relationships, I personally do not see how it's really compatible (or appropriate in most cases).
But in terms of thinking it's icky and gross as you put it (even in a case where it's 100% mutual)..I really have no answer to that. And I admit, apart of my reaction to this is based purely on being raised on the idea it's gross. Obviously in the past, incest was not a big deal on a society level. It wasn't always looked down upon as it was today. There are reasons that people have moved on beyond incest (for good reasons). Still kind of interesting to see how society shifts, and the kind of reasoning we have for certain views.
Escape Goat
Member
Most of european royalty was incestuous back around ww1. Married their cousins without issue.
I tend to agree that conseting adults can do whatever they want. I don't see the point of sending silblings to prison because they sleep with each other. That costs a whole lot and does very little to protect society.
If there's sexual abuse involved quite a few laws cover that already.
There's still issue with having children. But forbidding people to have children is murky in it's own right.
If there's sexual abuse involved quite a few laws cover that already.
There's still issue with having children. But forbidding people to have children is murky in it's own right.
So would you be in favour of forced abortion if the woman accidentally got pregnant?
Indeed. With incest there's at least scientific genetic arguments against, but polygamy? That's nobodys business but theirs. Your personal morality is not the moral compass for anybody else, and you have no business trying to force others to abide by them.
I think it's gross too, it's nothing I'd ever consider. At the same time I believe that me or the society at large considering things gross should not be a reason to outlaw them. If the involved parties are consenting and not endangering others or violating other people's rights they shouldn't be punished.
But cousin marriage wasn't and still isn't considered incest in many parts of the world, which shows that the whole incest thing is a little bit arbitrary, in some places two cousins together is considered incest and illegal, some think it's weird but okay, others that marrying a cousin is a perfect match.
Whatever the ethical or moral position on this, incest should be illegal because of the increased risk of genetic defects in offspring. It's been known for a long while that inbreeding has this effect, so I don't see any reason why people should be permitted to deliberately inflict this on any potential children they might have.
Agreed. I guess I just question how logical the reaction is. If there was an incesteous relationship not born out of abuse and was mutual, why is that gross? Why does it make me cringe? Shouldn't incest be gross based on context? ie. It being abuse etc. I just wonder why it's gross by default. But it is to me. I just wonder how much that reaction is based on cultural upbringing. If that makes sense. I can logically explain why I think it's problematic and how that itself plays into me finding it gross. But outside that, two consenting adults being in love isn't that gross?
Well the gene factor also plays in. I know you are more so talking about the law. Was just kind of expanding off your post.
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