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[fixedpoint]

Wait, people support abortions for suspected/confirmed deformities? Wtf that is absolutely awful and beyond messed up.

"Taking care of Down syndrome kids is so hard, I know so many people whose lives are miserable and I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemies" that is so selfish and pathetic

I'm going to assume that you're never had a child given that it seems you're unfamiliar with the range and severity of some developmental problems.

When expectant mothers have access to health care, a number of tests are performed specifically to detect a range of issues in unborn children; most are done via ultrasound imaging, some are performed via blood tests. When there's cause for concern (parental risk factors, other evidence) more direct tests use amniocentesis or chorionic villus sampling.

I don't support this "pick and choose" type of mentality that is becoming prevalent these days. If you get pregnant and you find out late in the pregnancy that the baby has deformities/abnormalities, I believe that you should deliver the baby unless it puts the mother's life at risk.

Prevalent amongst whom? Provided the mother in question has access to health care, testing a fetus for down syndrome takes place early in a pregnancy, generally between 9 and 13 weeks.

 

[aeolist]

Isn't this mostly a symbolic gesture anyway? I haven't read the text of the bill, but the news article states an abortion will be banned "if it is sought because the fetus was diagnosed with a disability or defect such as Down syndrome." The important word here is "because." So as long as the mother is choosing an abortion because of some other reason, any reason at all (but not the race, gender or disability of the fetus), the law won't prevent it.

I don't see how this actually has substantial impact on anything. A woman wanting an abortion in Indiana just has to check the appropriate box when filling out the paperwork now. It's meaningless legislation, meant to appease pro-life constituents in Indiana.

it's still probably unconstitutional and is only the headline grabber in the bill. they also added hospital admitting requirements for all abortion doctors, among other things.

 

[Kenstar]

Like I said no one here is going to change anyone's mind..you've heard all the arguments I will come up with and I've head all yours. In my view the choice to murder is wrong. If a pregnant woman gets murdered the killer gets two counts brought against him. Why count the kid as alive in one case and just some cells in another

Why is it that if I sneak into my grandma's hospital room and pull her plug I get a murder charge but if my aunts collectively decide to pull the plug they get off scott free?!?! Fuckin double standards

 

[AbortedWalrusFetus]

Ensuring the supply of future politicians.

 

[Ashes]

Downs Syndrome sways me in a way other reasons do not. I fully understand why a person would perform an abortion, but then this means, I'm saying its okay to not have downs babies, because life is harder? it's still life though. A disabled child should have as much right to life as any other. Would I be okay where a parent find out the sex of their baby and choose to abort thereafter? I'm not. Killing a pregnancy because you're having a female is an awful thing to allow. Hence why it is illegal in the UK.

It's funny, because it is a woman's body, her body her choice right? But I don't see how it would change if I, being a guy, could get pregnant, and give birth. Are we saying the pregnancy itself is harder? Surely the choice is care afterwards?

Having said that, would I bring such a child into this world? I guess, yes. So I'm biased here. So why should some other family suffer due to my take on the issue.

 

[Vilam]

It's none of the government's business why someone wants an abortion. You shouldn't need to justify your choice to anyone.

 

[Ashes]

It's none of the government's business why someone wants an abortion. You shouldn't need to justify your choice to anyone.

Is this true in all cases?

 

[benicillin]

Is this true in all cases?

Unequivocally yes. Abortion should be between a woman and her doctor, no one else.

 

[Ashes]

Unequivocally yes. Abortion should be between a woman and her doctor, no one else.

So you're perfectly fine with female infanticide. As long as it's in the tummy, it's okay. Right? I'm not judging. Though that may be hard to deduce from the tone of the previous sentence. Just interested.

 

[boiled goose]

So you're perfectly fine with female infanticide. As long as it's in the tummy, it's okay. Right? I'm not judging. Though that may be hard to deduce from the tone of the previous sentence. Just interested.

It's not infanticide if it is a fetus.

If female fetuses are getting aborted at a higher frequency that is for society to fix.
You can't legally force a women to remain pregnant against her consent depending on the gender of the fetus.

Am I ok with more abortions occurring for female fetuses. No.
Would I then bar abortions for female fetuses? Hell No.

Being pro choice is not being pro abortion.

 

[TangoAlphaLima]

it's still probably unconstitutional and is only the headline grabber in the bill. they also added hospital admitting requirements for all abortion doctors, among other things.

Yes, I assume it would be found to be unconstitutional anyway, I'm just saying that this legislation has no teeth. It can easily be circumvented by offering an alternative reason for wanting the abortion that isn't against Indiana law.

 

[Ashes]

It's not infanticide if it is a fetus.

If female fetuses are getting aborted at a higher frequency that is for society to fix.
You can't legally force a women to remain pregnant against her consent depending on the gender of the fetus.

Am I ok with more abortions occurring for female fetuses. No.
Would I then bar abortions for female fetuses? Hell No.

According to what criteria exactly? Should I change terms to female foeticide? Does that bridge the definition gap?

It's interesting that in the UK, where I am, sex selection abortions are illegal. And I've not really heard it be argued from Brits that they want the contrary. In fact more often than not, people tend to not understand why this is not the case in other countries.

Why support a practise that you yourself think immoral?

 

[Phased]

So you're perfectly fine with female infanticide. As long as it's in the tummy, it's okay. Right? I'm not judging. Though that may be hard to deduce from the tone of the previous sentence. Just interested.

You can disagree with abortion and still agree that it's a private decision between a woman and her doctor. I don't have any strong feelings towards it one way or another but since I'm not going to be the one taking care of the child, frankly it's none of my business what they choose to do.

 

[TangoAlphaLima]

It's interesting that in the UK, where I am, sex selection abortions are illegal in the UK.

How do they actually police that, though? Can't the woman just give a different reason for the abortion other than the gender of the fetus?

 

[excelsiorlef]

I don't support this "pick and choose" type of mentality that is becoming prevalent these days. If you get pregnant and you find out late in the pregnancy that the baby has deformities/abnormalities, I believe that you should deliver the baby unless it puts the mother's life at risk.

Maybe I went a little too far by saying it is selfish, but it is just not right to me.

Abortion should be legal period. For any reason at anytime no questions asked

 

[Siegcram]

According to what criteria exactly? Should I change terms to female foeticide? Does that bridge the definition gap?

It's interesting that in the UK, where I am, sex selection abortions are illegal. And I've not really heard it be argued from Brits that they want the contrary. In fact more often than not, people tend to not understand why this is not the case in other countries.

Why support a practise that you yourself think immoral?

In most countries with (mostly) unhindered access to abortion, sex selection isn't a concern.
Passing laws concerning cultural outliers isn't something that typically happens.

 

[boiled goose]

According to what criteria exactly? Should I change terms to female foeticide? Does that bridge the definition gap?

It's interesting that in the UK, where I am, sex selection abortions are illegal. And I've not really heard it be argued from Brits that they want the contrary. In fact more often than not, people tend to not understand why this is not the case in other countries.

Why support a practise that you yourself think immoral?

Abortion of a female fetus because it is female is accurate and sufficient.
Infanticide by definition requires an infant after birth.

I'm not sure I think abortion in any case is immoral. I just think it is a bad reason.
Even if it was immoral, I would think it would be more immoral for the government to force a thinking human to remain pregnant without consent.

It's a stupid law, because it is completely unenforceable. You can't read someone's mind.
"I don't want to be pregnant anymore" is completely sufficient to me.

 

[Dice//]

So you're perfectly fine with female infanticide. As long as it's in the tummy, it's okay. Right? I'm not judging. Though that may be hard to deduce from the tone of the previous sentence. Just interested.

That's a societal issue that shows how one sex is preferred to another and is another matter entirely.

 

[hydragonwarrior]

Downs Syndrome sways me in a way other reasons do not. I fully understand why a person would perform an abortion, but then this means, I'm saying its okay to not have downs babies, because life is harder? it's still life though. A disabled child should have as much right to life as any other. Would I be okay where a parent find out the sex of their baby and choose to abort thereafter? I'm not. Killing a pregnancy because you're having a female is an awful thing to allow. Hence why it is illegal in the UK.

It's funny, because it is a woman's body, her body her choice right? But I don't see how it would change if I, being a guy, could get pregnant, and give birth. Are we saying the pregnancy itself is harder? Surely the choice is care afterwards?

Having said that, would I bring such a child into this world? I guess, yes. So I'm biased here. So why should some other family suffer due to my take on the issue.

It's still far different though - you can detect down syndrome far earlier than you can the sex of a child.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

According to what criteria exactly? Should I change terms to female foeticide? Does that bridge the definition gap?

It's interesting that in the UK, where I am, sex selection abortions are illegal. And I've not really heard it be argued from Brits that they want the contrary. In fact more often than not, people tend to not understand why this is not the case in other countries.

Why support a practise that you yourself think immoral?

Well you do have to remember that sex selection abortion tends to be a cultural issue and sometimes those need to be legislated against.

Women aren't seen as equals in a number of cultures (Chinese, Indian or Pakistani, to name just a few) and as we have pretty large populations of those groups, it makes sense to legislate against them terminating pregnancies for the sake of having a male that will, in their eyes, be of more worth to them.

Not sure how or why you're comparing this to terminations for birth defects.

 

[Ashes]

How do they actually police that, though? Can't the woman just give a different reason for the abortion other than the gender of the fetus?

It is hard to police I suppose. It's still on the books so it is the law. And I don't think it's draconian law - I think, however hard it is to enforce, it is progressive.

---

 

[NimbusD]

Wait, people support abortions for suspected/confirmed deformities? Wtf that is absolutely awful and beyond messed up.

"Taking care of Down syndrome kids is so hard, I know so many people whose lives are miserable and I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemies" that is so selfish and pathetic

You're entirely welcome to have that opinion, and raise any child with a severe mental or chromosomal issues in the unfortunate event that that happens.

But wtf, imo it's "awful and beyond messed up" and "selfish and pathetic" for you or anyone else to dictate someone else's life to the degree that it could ruin their lives and prevent them from having autonomy over their own body just because you don't like it.

 

[FyreWulff]

So...they're banning abortions for those reasons...and what is stopping someone from simply saying they don't want a baby instead? This looks entirely political with no practical effect at all, just a waste of everyone's time.

It's just an attempt to get little footholds here and there into the process and set precedent.

Like the whole "partial birth abortion" bans, a term invented in 1995 by an anti-abortion corporation to make people think third-trimester fetuses were being aborted as they were being born.

 

[Ashes]

Not sure how or why you're comparing this to terminations for birth defects.

It was a tangent. I was just querying benicillin's no questions asked at all policy.

 

[boiled goose]

It is hard to police I suppose. It's still on the books so it is the law. And I don't think it's draconian law - I think, however hard it is to enforce, it is progressive.

---

No it is not progressive.

It is not hard to enforce, it is impossible to enforce.

 

[ScottSullivan]

Im really conflicted how i feel about this, im not pro life by any means, but if the baby is fetus is far enough along where it can be diagnosed with a birth defect, should it be ok to just kill it? I dunno i know it would make for a hard life for the mother and a net drain on the societys resources but it just feels wrong...

 

[aeolist]

Im really conflicted how i feel about this, im not pro life by any means, but if the baby is fetus is far enough along where it can be diagnosed with a birth defect, should it be ok to just kill it? I dunno i know it would make for a hard life for the mother and a net drain on the societys resources but it just feels wrong...

it is already illegal to abort a fetus past 20 weeks into the pregnancy in indiana, and screenings for things like downs can be done well before that. we are not talking about a child here.

 

[Ashes]

No it is not progressive.

It is not hard to enforce, it is impossible to enforce.

Why don't you think it's progressive? Gender selective abortions should be illegal. The idea that we're upholding women's rights by denying her right to exist on equal plain with her opposite gender is morally bankrupt.

It's not impossible to enforce either. Simple offering the first line of deterrence, would open up a dialogue thereby allowing guidance according to statute law. A doctor for example could not offer services openly to find out the sex of child as early as possible for the specific purpose of aborting females like as happens in India. And should a doctor be found to offer such a service, like being recorded on a secret camera or something, we can cancel their licence to practise.

 

[Eye for an Eye]

I mean I'm not a fan of abortion. I don't think anyone is, but it's a tough decision that people should be able to make.

As someone that grew up with a sibling with serious and life lasting birth defects I can tell you two things:

1. It's really, really, REALLY fucking hard to deal with.
2. None of these politicians banning abortion actually gives a shit to help families with these kids.

I'm not saying 100% abort all kids with birth defects. Only that parents face a big decision and should be free to decide for themselves. It's a tremendous undertaking.

After 25 years of cleaning up blood, urine, feces, helping a grown adult with the mental capacity of a small child get dressed deal with temper tantrums, etc I wouldn't wish it on anyone and to be honest I just don't want to go through that again w/ my kid so we'd make a different choice.

I've had the same life, and twice I have chosen to terminate for it.

Many of these women are not only terminating for mental issues, there's a shit ton of physical issues going on as well. It's only forcing mothers to be a life support machine until the baby dies.

And the BS about cremating or burying the remains is absurd. Some places will do it for free based on the circumstances, but I've read some being charged $300 or more to have the remains cremated. I was charged $75. And these are all costs on top of the cost of a termination that go in the range of $5,000 or more at a clinic and much higher in a surgical/hospital setting.

 

[fixedpoint]

Why don't you think it's progressive? Gender selective abortions should be illegal. The idea that we're upholding women's rights by denying her right to exist on equal plain with her opposite gender is morally bankrupt.

It's not impossible to enforce either. Simple offering the first line of deterrence, would open up a dialogue thereby allowing guidance according to statute law. A doctor for example could not offer services openly to find out the sex of child as early as possible for the specific purpose of aborting females like as happens in India. And should a doctor be found to offer such a service, like being recorded on a secret camera or something, we can cancel their licence to practise.

That's regressive as shit. There is no way that personal medical decisions or outcomes should be subject to governmental review or sanction.

 

[Siegcram]

Why don't you think it's progressive? Gender selective abortions should be illegal. The idea that we're upholding women's rights by denying her right to exist on equal plain with her opposite gender is morally bankrupt.

It's not impossible to enforce either. Simple offering the first line of deterrence, would open up a dialogue thereby allowing guidance according to statute law. A doctor for example could not offer services openly to find out the sex of child as early as possible for the specific purpose of aborting females like as happens in India. And should a doctor be found to offer such a service, like being recorded on a secret camera or something, we can cancel their licence to practise.

I'm not sure in what world sting operations on doctors providing abortions are progressive, no matter the motive.

Cultural progression naturally eliminates the prevalence of sex selection abortion.

 

[Eye for an Eye]

Im really conflicted how i feel about this, im not pro life by any means, but if the baby is fetus is far enough along where it can be diagnosed with a birth defect, should it be ok to just kill it? I dunno i know it would make for a hard life for the mother and a net drain on the societys resources but it just feels wrong...

Well, when you come face to face with having to make a decision, then you can interject your opinion. It's no one's place to make the decision besides the parents (and really only the mother).

What if you got an incompatible with life diagnosis and your wife was just the life support machine? Would you want to see your child born with their organs outside their body? With no skull? Or without lungs because their chest cavity was too small? A heart that couldn't beat on its own? Obstructed bladder that fill the bladder and kidneys with amniotic fluid until they turn cystic? That's only a few things that can go wrong.

 

[boiled goose]

Why don't you think it's progressive? Gender selective abortions should be illegal. The idea that we're upholding women's rights by denying her right to exist on equal plain with her opposite gender is morally bankrupt.

It's not impossible to enforce either. Simple offering the first line of deterrence, would open up a dialogue thereby allowing guidance according to statute law. A doctor for example could not offer services openly to find out the sex of child as early as possible for the specific purpose of aborting females like as happens in India. And should a doctor be found to offer such a service, like being recorded on a secret camera or something, we can cancel their licence to practise.

I don't think it is "progressive" for a government to force a woman to remain pregnant, under any single fucking condition.

If a woman doesn't want to be pregnant, that is enough. Who the fuck are we to pass judgements and FORCE her to remain pregnant because we disagree with her reasons?

Forcing a woman to remain pregnant against her will is primitive, REGRESSIVE, and fucking disgusting.

 

[Ashes]

I'm not sure in what world sting operations on doctors providing abortions are progressive, no matter the motive.

Cultural progression naturally eliminates the prevalence of sex selection abortion.

This world. I was just reading up on India where it a huge problem. Gosh I didn't gage how big a problem it was.

How can you argue that it is not progressive, whilst simultaneously arguing for cultural progression as a natural solution?

Still, I will note each society is different. India, to UK, to the US.

 

[Siegcram]

How can you argue that it is not progressive, whilst simultaneously arguing for cultural progression as a natural solution?

By differentiating methods. Strengthening women's rights accelerates cultural progression. Police operations on abortion clinics and doctors do not.

 

[DontBeThatGuy]

i'm tired of these dudes trying to decide what women can do with what's going on inside their bodies.

 

[Ashes]

I don't think it is "progressive" for a government to force a woman to remain pregnant, under any single fucking condition.

If a woman doesn't want to be pregnant, that is enough. Who the fuck are we to pass judgements and FORCE her to remain pregnant because we disagree with her reasons?

Forcing a woman to remain pregnant against her will is primitive, REGRESSIVE, and fucking disgusting.

Dude, who is forcing women to stay pregnant? What about the women pressured to have a son? Aborting a child because it is a she is morally abhorrent. And in some societies you have to stamp down on the practise if it is inherent in the system. I"m guessing you come from a society where this isn't something worth taking into consideration. The levels I am talking about, are happening on a scale where you can not turn a blind eye. It isn't about abortion per say. It's basically a family, not just a woman, carrying the foetus, buring a girl before she's born, because she's a girl, and no other reason.

Also you need to calm down. I'm sorry if you are losing your cool on my behest.

 

[aeolist]

Dude, who is forcing women to stay pregnant? What about the women pressured to have a son? Aborting a child because it is a she is morally abhorrent. And in some societies you have to stamp down on the practise if it is inherent in the system. I"m guessing you come from a society where this isn't something worth taking into consideration. The levels I am talking about, are happening on a scale where you can not turn a blind eye. It isn't about abortion per say. It's basically a family, not just a woman, carrying the foetus, buring a girl before she's born, because she's a girl, and no other reason.

Also you need to calm down. I'm sorry if you are losing your cool on my behest.

if a woman comes to a doctor and asks for an abortion she should get it. women being pressured to bear sons is not an issue you can address with abortion restrictions, that's a cultural issue. if you refuse an abortion to someone who asks then you are by definition forcing them to bear the child, which leads to bad outcomes and often sees women trying to get unlicensed or self-induced abortions (obviously detrimental to her health).

edit: this argument reminds me of people who want to ban burqas. men forcing their beliefs on women doesn't fix the problem of other men forcing different beliefs on women.

 

[DontBeThatGuy]

if it's in your body, it's your decision, the fucking end.

 

[manueldelalas]

WTF people speaking about Down syndrome like it was something unbearable.

In from Chile and abortion is illegal (and we still have a much better mortality rate than the USA, being a third world country and all that). We have probably the highest Down syndrome percentage in the world.

Everyone here has at least one close relative with Down syndrome, there are great facilities and help centers for people with disabilities (most private, and we have giant events were everyone gives money to sustain them, like Teleton, which is the biggest), and let me tell you, Down syndrome kids are awesome.

The huge problem with aborting people because they have disabilities or are different is that society don't see and don't realize that they have to take care of them, and help the parents.

Obviously taking care of them is hard, but it's much harder without help.

I think this law is good news overall, let's hope you have now a higher rate of Down syndrome people so you can actually see what it's really about.

If you want to have a kid, get pregnant, then find out he or she has Down syndrome and then want to abort, I'm sorry, but I don't have any sympathy for you.

 

[gutter_trash]

insert George Carlin quote

 

[Obscura]

In order to keep their tax-exempt status, all churches that promote a pro-life agenda must now become financially responsible for all unwanted children. Seems fair.

A version of this should already be in effect. Sanity destroying that it isn't.

 

[WhereAreMahDragonz]

WTF people speaking about Down syndrome like it was something unbearable.

In from Chile and abortion is illegal (and we still have a much better mortality rate than the USA, being a third world country and all that). We have probably the highest Down syndrome percentage in the world.

Everyone here has at least one close relative with Down syndrome, there are great facilities and help centers for people with disabilities (most private, and we have giant events were everyone gives money to sustain them, like Teleton, which is the biggest), and let me tell you, Down syndrome kids are awesome.

The huge problem with aborting people because they have disabilities or are different is that society don't see and don't realize that they have to take care of them, and help the parents.

Obviously taking care of them is hard, but it's much harder without help.

I think this law is good news overall, let's hope you have now a higher rate of Down syndrome people so you can actually see what it's really about.

If you want to have a kid, get pregnant, then find out he or she has Down syndrome and then want to abort, I'm sorry, but I don't have any sympathy for you.

See, but the problem is that the state won't help the family with care after they've been forced to have a child that they potentially can't care for in the right way.

It's not about "seeing what Down Syndrome is all about". The problem here is that families, and more specifically, the women who are forced by law to carry the child to term, don't even have a choice in their own reproductive health.

 

[Ashes]

if a woman comes to a doctor and asks for an abortion she should get it. women being pressured to bear sons is not an issue you can address with abortion restrictions, that's a cultural issue. if you refuse an abortion to someone who asks then you are by definition forcing them to bear the child, which leads to bad outcomes and often sees women trying to get unlicensed or self-induced abortions (obviously detrimental to her health).

edit: this argument reminds me of people who want to ban burqas. men forcing their beliefs on women doesn't fix the problem of other men forcing different beliefs on women.

I see where you are coming from. I do but I think we part ways when you seek legal support for gender based abortion. For me if you want a child, you don't get to decide its sex. Just looking up the hundreds of thousands of missing girls in India, I just read online, has only affirmed my stance.

 

[Skii]

"You were born with shit genetics? Tough luck, we're going to make you pay and so will your children".

 

[Apathy]

WTF people speaking about Down syndrome like it was something unbearable.

In from Chile and abortion is illegal (and we still have a much better mortality rate than the USA, being a third world country and all that). We have probably the highest Down syndrome percentage in the world.

Everyone here has at least one close relative with Down syndrome, there are great facilities and help centers for people with disabilities (most private, and we have giant events were everyone gives money to sustain them, like Teleton, which is the biggest), and let me tell you, Down syndrome kids are awesome.

The huge problem with aborting people because they have disabilities or are different is that society don't see and don't realize that they have to take care of them, and help the parents.

Obviously taking care of them is hard, but it's much harder without help.

I think this law is good news overall, let's hope you have now a higher rate of Down syndrome people so you can actually see what it's really about.

If you want to have a kid, get pregnant, then find out he or she has Down syndrome and then want to abort, I'm sorry, but I don't have any sympathy for you.

The problem is not with the kids themselves, but the fact that in these republican governed states, the governors have reduced help that the poor can get, and like to cut social services, which makes it harder to raise a child, let alone a child with a sever mental or physical disability. They punish low income individuals simply for being a poor income individual. Hoping that there is a higher birth rate of kids with Downs syndrom is disgusting by the way. These are people you're talking about, you saying that you want more of them to have to live with a disability for their whole life. Again, it's all well and good when people that don't have any serious issues come and say things like this, because you personally don't have to deal with it day to day. Even if you had to take care of them day to day it's different than actually living with it day to day. It's like saying "people dont know what it's like to live without legs, hope more parents have kids born without legs so they can see that it's fine and their kids can survive". You want to set up a child to turn into an adult and have to live their whole life with this thing that they can never fix?

 

[Dicktatorship]

As someone who has cared for the mentally disabled, I'm pretty upset at the dehumanizing posts in here. Can you please not act like the mentally disabled are sub-human? They're every bit as human as you are (perhaps even more, judging by some of these posts) and deserve every right to live. You can make your argument without knocking them down, just so you know.

 

[Ashes]

"You were born with shit genetics? Tough luck, we're going to make you pay and so will your children".

God this is an awful spin on things. You should talk with a person with downs syndrome some time. They're not sub-human.

 

[Shaanyboi]

Wtf is going on?

 

[God Dayumm]

So you're perfectly fine with female infanticide. As long as it's in the tummy, it's okay. Right? I'm not judging. Though that may be hard to deduce from the tone of the previous sentence. Just interested.

Female infanticide happens because of sexism. The same sexism that takes from women their choice to abort. So by passing these laws they are feeding the ideas that cause female infanticide

The point is moot anyway. Fetuses are not infants nor women