Indie devs flock to PS4 to self-publish, how The Witness became PS4 exclusive
- Thread starter bigboss370
- Start date
DiscoJer
Member
PS Mobile is an example of the game quality you get when you open things up.
I mean, I hate to pick on this guy, since he's nice enough to release tutorials. But look at the screens of his upcoming game
http://levelism.com/nekorush-update-new-screens/
Uh, yeah, a running game based around poorly drawn cats. Is there really a large market for games like this? There is certainly room for a better made running game, with a nice feature set (see Jetpack Joyride). But the basic Canabalt premise has been done over and over. Canabalt with penguins was just released last week. Now canabalt with cats.
And that's far from the worst of what has been released on it. By contrast, what good games have been released on it? Maybe a handful. Terrortown and maybe Pixel (once the update comes out) are the only really outstanding games, IMHO. Super Skull Smash Go! really could have been an excellent game, but it was only about halfway done. That's the other thing, it seems like it encourages people to flood the market with half finished games, rather than focus on quality.
I mean, I hate to pick on this guy, since he's nice enough to release tutorials. But look at the screens of his upcoming game
http://levelism.com/nekorush-update-new-screens/
Uh, yeah, a running game based around poorly drawn cats. Is there really a large market for games like this? There is certainly room for a better made running game, with a nice feature set (see Jetpack Joyride). But the basic Canabalt premise has been done over and over. Canabalt with penguins was just released last week. Now canabalt with cats.
And that's far from the worst of what has been released on it. By contrast, what good games have been released on it? Maybe a handful. Terrortown and maybe Pixel (once the update comes out) are the only really outstanding games, IMHO. Super Skull Smash Go! really could have been an excellent game, but it was only about halfway done. That's the other thing, it seems like it encourages people to flood the market with half finished games, rather than focus on quality.
Warm Machine
Member
Yes and no. With no history of sales you have no guarantee about what you could make. However, if you are one of the few game
choices for people who picked up a shiny new console chances are your tie ratio for the people who do buy the machine will be high.
And because we are on a new page ill paste this again.
http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/Thom...hs_about_Xbox_Live_Indie_Game_Development.php
choices for people who picked up a shiny new console chances are your tie ratio for the people who do buy the machine will be high.
And because we are on a new page ill paste this again.
http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/Thom...hs_about_Xbox_Live_Indie_Game_Development.php
That's a pretty nice article, it gives a good degree of insight of what you can expect. But just to throw it out there, here's a pretty good article about developing for Nintendo, and how they've changed from Wii/DS to Wii U/3DS, since I know some people still may have reservations.
lunchwithyuzo
Banned
In addition to Unity, a Havok license is included with the Wii U devkit. Also, the devkit is pretty cheap for a console launch, being under $2000. And another big plus, publishers get full price controls.
Dreamwriter
Member
The HUGE problem with XBLIG is the fact that they don't promote the service at all - I have like 6 other friends who have owned XBox 360's for years, none of them had ever heard of XBLIG as of a couple months ago when I told them about it.
If you want to get super specific, you can also control your release date and have sales whenever you want now. The original Wii dev kit apparently cost $1732 around launch.
disappeared
Banned
.,
Lupin the Third
Member
That's clearly talking about Wii devkits, not Wii U.
IHaveCandy
Banned
I suspect that Microsoft wants to relegate self-publishing to a smaller sector on Xbox because full-blown self-publishing on the Marketplace is going to cause a price-race to the bottom. Look at the App Store.
Does self-publishing include denial by Sony or can everyone just go there and release stuff? Cause then the service will be flooded with mediocre games, which is why the Xbox Live concept makes sense.
If Microsoft ends up having BC for XBLA I can imagine a lot of indie devs prefering to launch on PS4 where they don't have any competition. Then again they don't have access to 40 million gamers - and for any indie that is key. I mean what will The Witness sell if it launches on PS4? 20.000 copies? And that's me being generous here. It took a userbase of 25 million and an ad-intensive promotion to sell 200k copies of Braid.
If Microsoft ends up having BC for XBLA I can imagine a lot of indie devs prefering to launch on PS4 where they don't have any competition. Then again they don't have access to 40 million gamers - and for any indie that is key. I mean what will The Witness sell if it launches on PS4? 20.000 copies? And that's me being generous here. It took a userbase of 25 million and an ad-intensive promotion to sell 200k copies of Braid.
I just want to make it clear that there is a lot more to being a "good choice for indies" beyond "technically they are allowed to exist on our platform."
Not saying either the Wii U or PS4 will be bad for indies; but this news in particular doesn't seal the deal.
Dreamwriter
Member
Microsoft actually forced that to happen in XBLIG by limiting the max price to $5, and then creating a system where the games that get promoted the most are the ones that sell tons of copies regardless of price - since a $1 will sell a hell of a lot more copies than a $5 game, the chances of a $5 game being near the top of the list is very low.
I think the OUYA will be a very interesting experiment to see what happens in regards to price - it's a completely open console with no price limits, no dev-kit or subscription cost other than the $99 console, forced demos for all games, and already a ton of indies developing games for it (over 1200 dev kits are out there).
Oopsies. In any case, it's not that expensive, consider that Notion Games wants to raise $3500 on Kickstarter, and only 20% of that is going to a dev kit (beforehand, they wanted to raise $3000 on their website though, so...it's hard to say how much it actually costs).
I don't know how the policy of making a new OUYA every one or two years is going to affect the platform though. I don't know how that model works with a console format.
Warm Machine
Member
We also have to be realistic about Braid as well. I'll be first to admit it is a very clever game and very well designed, incredibly so.
However a player looking at screenshots of it is going to think it is a 2d run an jump game with a uniquely unconventional art style. Blow hit a timing sweet spot with that game. Who knows if it would have sold near as good if it debuted on PC? Being on Xbox probably helped push its unique aspect as it was unique to itself and to its platform.
Who knows how the Witness is going to be received by the general public.
I'd be happy to go to WiiU if there is a proven audience for downloadable games there.
However a player looking at screenshots of it is going to think it is a 2d run an jump game with a uniquely unconventional art style. Blow hit a timing sweet spot with that game. Who knows if it would have sold near as good if it debuted on PC? Being on Xbox probably helped push its unique aspect as it was unique to itself and to its platform.
Who knows how the Witness is going to be received by the general public.
I'd be happy to go to WiiU if there is a proven audience for downloadable games there.
Stop fooling yourself. XBLA was a legit platform before Braid came out.
Interesting. But Wii U dev kit prices are a little higher in cost.
Well, but that's precisely the "race to the bottom" problem. The only way your game gets discovered is if it hits the top of the sales chart, and the only way to get to do that is to sell cheap since you're competing with other games selling for cheap. It's certainly not unique to XBLIG - same exact problem on the iOS store, Android store etc.
iamshadowlark
Banned
Yeah, thats why things like allowing self-publishing and access to free dev-kits reaffirm that Sony has been a relatively great platform for indies to work for. Its really not news.
MS on the other hand has been getting bad press in regards to their Indie support. Which is strange, considering they started off relatively awesome with XNA.
Warm Machine
Member
All signs point to MS running a win 8 style App Store on the next Xbox. The phone, tablets, and desktops all have the same marketplace. I'm expecting it to become available on 360. It is simply ground zero for a piece of hardware to have an open digital store.
I don't expect MS to open up achievements, avatars, leaderboards, and things like that unless they do a full sponsored game like on Win 8. In effect it creates a two tiered marketplace.
How do you feel about what Nintendo is doing with the Wii U and 3DS in regards to Indie Devs right now? Have you tried to work with Nintendo before? Serious question.
I've only talked to Sony and Microsoft, but I have found Nintendo this generation to be making some interesting moves. I haven't really followed them as closely as I probably should have.
Regarding the XBIG talk, even if there are hurdles with the marketplace and some serious perception issues, I believe it helped pave the current indie landscape on consoles. I mean, I wouldn't have become a developer if it wasn't for XNA and the community that Microsoft had nurtured.
This new generation will be very interesting. It's amazing to see how far 'indie games' have come over a single console cycle. The fact that all platform holders are embracing it is very promising.
Dreamwriter
Member
Well, OUYA for one isn't planning on sorting games in their store by the number of sales or the money earned or the number of downloads, so there won't be a "top of the sales chart" encouraging the race to the bottom. And of course the fact that every game is a demo means even a $1 game won't get any sales if it isn't any good, unlike other app stores.
OUYA describes their system as "measuring engagement" - it sounds like they are going to be measuring how often a player starts a specific game, how long they play it per session, how often it's the first game played when the system is turned on, things like that.
lunchwithyuzo
Banned
So far sales performance has also been pretty encouraging for Indies on Wii U with examples like Frozenbyte mentioning Trine 2 DC outperforming the other console versions and Shin'en saying Nano Assault Neo is actually their fastest selling title ever. Nearly all the eShop only releases seem to have done pretty well (Tomorrow Corp's Little Inferno, Doublefine's The Cave, Wayforward's MIghty Switch Force HD, Neko's Puddle, Zen Studios' Zen Pinball 2), the lone excepton seeming to be Broken Rules' Chasing Aurora.
iamshadowlark
Banned
Yeah I learned a lot of what I know about graphics programming on XNA. It's sad they seemingly have it go by the wayside.
Dreamwriter
Member
Some folks think that XNA is going away so that Microsoft can release something new to replace it that would support games on all their platforms - XBox 720, Windows 8, Windows Phone 8, Surface.
I don't think WayForward was happy about their sales, and Frozenbyte's Trine 2 hasn't passed XBLA numbers as of these statements, but they are happy with them. For good measure, here's a couple of quotes from the Vice Prez of Frozenbyte.
Joel here - just to comment on this, Mikael probably should've said just "well". That's what he/we mean.
Anyhow I'm fairly confident in saying that Wii U will be our best console platform. Whether it's the "launch effect" or eShop's better visibility, or the general quality of the game and the great word of mouth - thanks to everybody! - or sheer luck, I don't know - but we'll take it.
- Joel, Frozenbyte team, developers of Trine 2: Director's Cut
dragonelite
Member
Yeah XNA was also my first exposure with graphics programming 2 years ago.
Sad to see it go but i hope we get something new back for it like WinRT with C++ and dx11 or in C#.
Not sure if iOS is an indie paradise either, what's with games having to be free or cost less than a dollar if they want anyone to buy the games.
Depends on the platform I believe. I may be wrong, but my understanding is that the way it works right now you still need to go through an approval process to get something on PSN even if you self publish it. On PSM though they're much more open. As long as you pay the license fee ($99/year) and follow their guidelines you can distribute the app on the PSM store.
That's not really a problem if handled correctly. Some kind of community voting would be good as well as a "what's new" showcase. Accurate ratings would definitely help. I could see someone releasing a thousand crappy "apps" but hopefully downvoting can keep them hidden.
"Free" obviously doesn't mean no revenue. Our free iOS games make way more than our paid games ever did.
iOS may not be a paradise in that it is not easy money, but then what platform is? iOS is at least a paradise in the sense it is freely accessible to all (pretty much), and as an indie you have complete control over how you create, package and sell your content (pretty much).
I wish all platforms had such open access. Sony to their credit is making big moves in that direction. If they can keep streamlining the process and sell a lot of hardware, then their platforms will start being a lot more desirable.
The Witness is a funny example of a timed-exclusive, because Blow is so honest about the systems. It's surprising really, most people are so scared of offending a publisher, let alone a first party, the never say anything even vaguely provocative.
I actually can't think of another time where we knew something was just a timed-exclusive when it was announced as exclusive.
Blow is awesome.
Although, he didn't say it will come to other systems, just that it was only going to launch on one console, so it would be a defacto timed-exclusive anyway, it may go to other systems, it may not. I wouldn't be surprised if The Witness actually doesn't go to the next Xbox.
I actually can't think of another time where we knew something was just a timed-exclusive when it was announced as exclusive.
Blow is awesome.
Although, he didn't say it will come to other systems, just that it was only going to launch on one console, so it would be a defacto timed-exclusive anyway, it may go to other systems, it may not. I wouldn't be surprised if The Witness actually doesn't go to the next Xbox.
iamshadowlark
Banned
There's certainly going to be QCing by Sony. As far as not having access to 40 million gamers, I don't there's any accurate way to estimate just how many individual PSN accounts there are. As it stands now sony reports 90million accounts, I find it hard to believe that you remove 50million plus when you factor the multiple accounts thing.
Considering Sony is actively passing MS in install-base, its really not that far-fetched to believe Sony has more consoles connected, especially when the service is free.
Kenshin001
Member
Actually Klei games pitched MotN to MS, I don't think Sony was even considered. The fact MS slyly got Deadlight and it's 68 on Metacritic says to me The Witness's quality had little to do with it.
Official word is to use sharpDX, works fine on WinRT and allows you to access dx11 from c#. Of course it's not as streamlined as XNA.
The strangest thing about The Witness' being a timed exclusive is that MS didn't pitch Blow for it. I know he's been a vocal MS critic, but all the more reason you go after him. He has by far the highest profile indie game in development, Braid basically made the indie darling on console concept a thing. MS should have been courting him for years. He hasn't even been brought in on Durango, it's crazy.
I wonder how much the PSN performance is influenced by the massive EU delay and the Plus-release.
Miles Quaritch
Member
Live Arcade was a legitimate platform long before Braid was released. You're free to disagree, but it's disingenuous to claim it lacked legitimacy as a platform before Braid.
Did it have change the perception of Live Arcade for Indie developers? It could be argued it did, but that's an entirely different argument.
I think the early success of Geometry Wars: Retro Evolved from the outset firmly established the platform as a viable opportunity for indie consideration. In talking about that period with XBLA staff at the time, they were inundated with concept submissions at the time.
Arguably, by the time Braid came along, much had changed behind the scenes at MS and it was actually harder to get on and make money from the platform, even if this wasn't immediately obvious to indies.
Kenshin001
Member
I don't think that is all the more reason to go after him. If he's displeased with the platform cut him loose. It's not like there aren't a hundred other indie devs lining up to be on XBLA. From what I understand he was initially pretty adamant about it being PC only but Nick Suttner, to his credit, chased him and he changed his mind.
It was announced as PC, iPad and 'whatever consoles make sense when it's done', so I doubt that.
And the point is to show you're progressive, get your biggest detractor to come to your conference and tell people you've improved. Instead of Blow now being a figure for why indies should go to Sony.
Sony did it with Gabe Newell, they courted Valve, because Gabe had ripped into Sony many times. MS should have got The Witness. Braid is still the highest rated XBLA game.
I think it just gives Indie developers another outlet to release their titles on. If you can self-publish your work on the PS4 why not go for it? And as someone as noted in this thread the early drought of software on any new console can easily be remedied by store content, indie games included.
Kenshin001
Member
Originally that wasn't the case though, it was just going to be Steam and iOS. He said consoles weren't worth it.
I don't think so, he hasn't even updated it actually:
It did say 2012 at one point, but that's been there as long as the blog if I remember correctly.
But it's irrelevant. If anyone at Sony could convince him, obviously MS could too.
Visualante2
Member
I don't get Blow sometimes. He acts like he expects Microsoft to make the first move, to come to him and say "please Mr. Blow put your game on XBOX"
He still has a chip on his shoulder over Braid certification it seems. That's valid, but I think he acts like platform holders aren't busy doing other stuff. I guess I just wish he'd be more direct and just say "XBOX isn't a suitable platform for my game, and until Microsoft changes things Witness won't be on it" instead of this half assed.. oh well it'll come, but 6 months later. That'll show 'em who's boss.
Same shit with the Meatboy guys I feel. Hypocrisy between the way Sony and Nintendo responds to their games.
He still has a chip on his shoulder over Braid certification it seems. That's valid, but I think he acts like platform holders aren't busy doing other stuff. I guess I just wish he'd be more direct and just say "XBOX isn't a suitable platform for my game, and until Microsoft changes things Witness won't be on it" instead of this half assed.. oh well it'll come, but 6 months later. That'll show 'em who's boss.
Same shit with the Meatboy guys I feel. Hypocrisy between the way Sony and Nintendo responds to their games.
Miles Quaritch
Member
Braid did seem to coincide with a shift in the types of games that were considered/released on Live Arcade.
I am surprised to hear that it became harder to make money from Live Arcade around the same time. Perhaps because of the retail market picking up?
They should have. That's what a first party is meant to do. They court developers and publishers.
Visualante2
Member
Doesn't seem like a productive way to do business to me. They should be providing a framework for game creators to come to Microsoft and make games. If I make a game, it's my job to get it out there, get deals, secure platforms.
It's Blow's job to get the game on many platforms, and he is the reason why Witness isn't coming to the new XBOX (for now)- not Microsoft.