Indie Game Awards Disqualifies Clair Obscur: Expedition 33 Due To Gen AI Usage
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Loomy
Thinks Microaggressions are Real
This is such a ridiculously dumb hill to die on.
If that's their stance on it, the award show will probably no longer exist in 1-2 years. If anything, devs are going to stop admitting to using it.
We've known since launch that Sandfall used AI placeholder assets that they replaced after launch, so this feels overly performative.
Also, this seems to be the confession they're going on. Wtf are we even doing here?
If that's their stance on it, the award show will probably no longer exist in 1-2 years. If anything, devs are going to stop admitting to using it.
We've known since launch that Sandfall used AI placeholder assets that they replaced after launch, so this feels overly performative.
Also, this seems to be the confession they're going on. Wtf are we even doing here?
Topher
Identifies as young
Topher
Identifies as young
Why did Sandfall reveal that they did use AI if their intent was to mislead to win an award? Could be as simple as the person who submitted the game for the award was mistaken.
Don't think there is anything nefarious here really. The awards folks have their rules and they followed them.
At the same time, doesn't seem like the Indie awards has the same standards for deternming if a studio is indie or not as that which has been stated here on GAF. Doesn't seem to me like there is a clear cut definition at all.
Sevyne
Member
I mean if that's what they want to do with these awards then ok. Rules are rules. Just don't expect to have any games to give awards out to soon. Even if a game doesn't have AI generated content actually in the game, every dev eventually will employ some form of AI to better their workflow. That would disqualify everyone.
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calico
Member
With the AI placeholder situation (well known months ago) and even those Meurisse comments being made ahead of time, did they deliberately wait until they had given the award before stripping it, because they knew it would be more dramatic than simply removing Exp33 from consideration beforehand?
Topher
Identifies as young
It does seem odd that they would only bring this up now.
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Sakura
Member
It's always going to be somewhat arbitrary. Is Mario indie because it is developed and self published by Nintendo?
There has to be a cutoff somewhere.
If you developed a game completely on your own what exactly is your 7m budget going to?
Loomy
Thinks Microaggressions are Real
Sounds like it.
Punished Miku
Gaslighter Pro: 16.7 Fireflops
The only reason to ever make any distinction between indie vs published is money. Literally thats it.
If you have a studio like Hello Games that had been selling No Man's Sky for $30-60 for a decade with 30 employees then the distinction vanishes. They can publish their next game by themselves and afford more resources and leeway and time than a AAA project. Same with Larian. Same with CD Projekt Red.
Of course its arbitrary. After a certain amount of money, the distinction is irrelevant. People will have to pick a number or just 100% abandon ever calling anything indie. It will be a dead word. Is Valve indie? After a certain point you have the funding of a publisher even if you never publish anything but your own stuff.
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Lightbreak
Member
Studio is 33 but they had 300 people working on different things
Sentenza
Member
It's literally an independent studio owned by its own founder and lead director.
Lightbreak
Member
An indie game is made by a low bugdet and a small team without publisher funding. Examples: Hollow Knight, Stardew Valley, Celeste, Undertale, Pipistrello and the Cursed Yoyo, Minishoot Adventures and such games.
Larian is not indie, neither is Sandall.
Mr Moose
Member
When does indie become AA?
What's Witcher 3/Cyberpunk? Hitman 3?
(Sandfall said E33 is a AA game, btw).
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Sentenza
Member
Don't look for any form of coherence in this ruling.
All this "anti-AI and pro artists" self-righteousness is entirely performative and very often advocated with the most idiotic and disingenuous arguments (not to mention a very poor understanding of what LLM even are and how they are supposed to work).
Let me be clear that I'm not an unconditional AI lover by any stretch and I would absolutely concur with anyone arguing that the so called "AI slop" is currently almost a plague on the internet (i.e. all the fake posts and video that do not openly disclose their nature as AI-generate on social media, all the automated youtube channels regurgitating hours and hours of trite shit, etc, etc).
But to hate on people who make a competent and circumstantial use of it as a productivity tool is nothing more than a myopic form of zealotry.
Topher
Identifies as young
FoxMcChief
Gold Member
This disqualification will make more headlines than the awards themselves.
Loomy
Thinks Microaggressions are Real
I'm guessing that was the point.
Wilhelm_85
Gold Member
How pathetic.
Bunch of purple-haired mask wearers, I bet.
Bunch of purple-haired mask wearers, I bet.
Sentenza
Member
The funniest shit to me is that if you listen to some of these morons arguing on twitter, the crime of using an AI-generated placeholder texture on a corner of the map is an insult against human creativity, while having, say, Bethesda generating most of their world maps with procedural terrain generation and populating it of vegetation with a middleware like Speedtree is perfectly fine, because "that's not GenAI".
It seems pretty strange to maintain that AI generated placeholders break the rule as that implies the idea is to prohibit any AI involvement whatsoever rather than protect artists from replacement. If you don't want your artists wasting time on placeholders a lack of AI would not scupper that, you'd just drop a Getty image in, or take a quick picture/screenshot or something. It's a placeholder ie not the thing itself.
Sooooo... say I'm a developer working on an Unreal game. How does that thing with the extension that lets you map the memory of third-party blueprints work again? I dunno, is that even a thing? I'll Google it... aaaand the AI-generated result is exactly what I'm looking for. Great. Presumably AI has now officially been used to develop the game and it can no longer win this highly prestigious award?!
How many levels of indirection apply? Unbeknownst to me my local bus company uses AI to generate its routes including the one that gets me to work in the morning... AI has now contributed to the development of my game and no awards for us!
I feel like the non-ridiculous version of the rule would be restricted to AI-generated assets that feature in the final product. You could argue over even that, given where the industry seems to be headed, but at least it would make some kind of sense.
Sooooo... say I'm a developer working on an Unreal game. How does that thing with the extension that lets you map the memory of third-party blueprints work again? I dunno, is that even a thing? I'll Google it... aaaand the AI-generated result is exactly what I'm looking for. Great. Presumably AI has now officially been used to develop the game and it can no longer win this highly prestigious award?!
How many levels of indirection apply? Unbeknownst to me my local bus company uses AI to generate its routes including the one that gets me to work in the morning... AI has now contributed to the development of my game and no awards for us!
I feel like the non-ridiculous version of the rule would be restricted to AI-generated assets that feature in the final product. You could argue over even that, given where the industry seems to be headed, but at least it would make some kind of sense.
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Unknown Soldier
Member
ChorizoPicozo
Member
HRK69
Member
They're indie devs. By definition.
You can dislike that all you want, but it remains a fact.
Saying it isn't true over and over doesn't change the definition.
And before it comes up: budget is irrelevant.
Defentition: An indie developer is a studio that operates independently of major publishers.
It's about ownership and creative control, not budget, team size, engine, or sales.
A game doesn't stop being indie just because it's successful.
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HRK69
Member
No, money is not "literally" the only distinction. Control is.
Ownership, publishing rights, and creative authority are the reason the term exists
You're arguing that success should retroactively erase independence. Yes, the line is arbitrary if you redefine indie as "financially constrained". But that's your redefinition, not the standard one
Valve isn't a paradox, Larian isn't a paradox, and Hello Games isn't either. Theyre 100% independent studios that became successful.
Success doesn't turn you into a publisher any more than profit turns a freelancer into a corporation.
If you want to abandon the word because it stops matching your vibes at scale, fine, but that doesn't mean the distinction was "always about money."
Unknown Soldier
Member
PixelatedBeast
Member
Theres no defending this. They used AI on top of UE5 premade assets. At what point did they actually do any "developing" besides recording voice actors and programing game logic?
poodaddy
Member
poppabk
Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
And probably second guessing if they should say anything about using ChatGPT to punch up some of their text.
Indie is about control. Baldur's Gate 3 and Clair Obscur are both indie games where independent studios developed and funded the games through various sources (assets, liability, equity).
That's how businesses are run. The amount of secured funding or team size is irrelevant to being independent.
That's how businesses are run. The amount of secured funding or team size is irrelevant to being independent.
StreetsofBeige
Member
If anything, if AI helped a studio make a GOTY kind of game with few people and cheap budget, they should an award for efficiency.
They would in any other business. If a company (or department at a company) did something great like they'd get recognition for a job well done.
Only in media do you get weirdos saying making a great product efficiently and cost effective is bad. And to boost the studio even got formed at the worst time.... during COVID! And they figured out how to make a solid game when everyone was scared shitless and WFH.
They would in any other business. If a company (or department at a company) did something great like they'd get recognition for a job well done.
Only in media do you get weirdos saying making a great product efficiently and cost effective is bad. And to boost the studio even got formed at the worst time.... during COVID! And they figured out how to make a solid game when everyone was scared shitless and WFH.
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xenosys
Member
It was published by Kepler Interactive. Therefore it's not an Indie title.
Baldur's Gate was developed and published by Larian.
Topher
Identifies as young
Madjaba
Member
Still GOTY though
Yeah they just pushed a button and BAM one of the best JRPG from the last 10 years has been madeTheres no defending this. They used AI on top of UE5 premade assets. At what point did they actually do any "developing" besides recording voice actors and programing game logic?
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Dirk Benedict
Gold Member
Providing marketing and distribution services doesn't disqualify it from being independently developed. Kepler itself was formed as a partnership of several indie studios to do this very thing for other indies.
Sloclap is an indie developer whose first indie title, Absolver, was published by Devolver Digital and whose second indie title, Sifu, was co-published by Kepler.
Aressa
You can't die before your death
This sudden hate for the game is just weird. It feels less like criticism and more like backlash because it got popular. It's a turn-based RPG, a niche genre by definition. If that's not your taste that's fine but calling it bad makes no sense.
That's like playing a realistic F1 sim and hating it because it isn't arcade racing.
That's like playing a realistic F1 sim and hating it because it isn't arcade racing.
calico
Member
Is the distinction between a major and non-major publisher arbitrary?
ToneyJ
Member
Dos that make valve games indie games?