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Indie Game Development Discussion Thread | Of Being Professionally Poor

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razu

Member
"How are the touch controls going to work? It seems like it will require quite a few different inputs to control."


Looks like just a Virtual Joystick and then touch to control thrust to me.

Yep, that's exactly it.


First of all, it looks amazing and Mike is lovely. Great job. With that said there's only one weak point and that's the UI. It's very bland looking and not as consistent as it might be. For example:

- In the distinct screens the arrows are not aligned.
- The font sizes are a bit weird too, why the button's font is bigger than the header?
- Why show a preview of the stage then show another preview of the stage after selecting the chopper?

Why use arrows when you are on a touch screen? You are using a touchscreen after all. Can't you just show all the choppers at once and change the preview based on the selection? Think like a fighter selection screen. Same goes for the select stage. There's a reason all the other similar games show a big screen with numbered stages and the current star ratings. With your current UI it's a pain to find in which stages you are missing some stars since you have to go through every single one of them. Why not make a bingo card showing the stages and every time you complete a row/column you unlock something new?

Thanks for the feedback! The arrows being all over the place have been annoying me too.

The double preview is a technical thing. I wanted to show the 3D preview for level select, but it takes too long to load, (a fraction of a second, but still, that would kill a menu). But it is handy to see, so I show it on level load so the player can work out what to do it the level, and.. it looks cool! I then settled on a 2d screenshot for level select as players need to know what they're going to play.

I know the UI isn't perfect, but it's getting there. Also, I guarantee if I made it a 'bingo card' I'd have half my testers complaining. You just can't please everyone! The recursive level-difficulty-game star system helps with finding where you're missing stars a bit. E.g. If you don't have the game-wide Complete Star you go to the difficulty select and scroll through to see which difficulty doesn't have the Complete Star. Then you can go into that difficulty and scroll through the levels in it to find the levels you haven't completed..


I reckon we could have some great arguments about game design over a beer!! ;D

Thanks man!
 
Thanks for the feedback! The arrows being all over the place have been annoying me too.

The double preview is a technical thing. I wanted to show the 3D preview for level select, but it takes too long to load, (a fraction of a second, but still, that would kill a menu). But it is handy to see, so I show it on level load so the player can work out what to do it the level, and.. it looks cool! I then settled on a 2d screenshot for level select as players need to know what they're going to play.

I know the UI isn't perfect, but it's getting there. Also, I guarantee if I made it a 'bingo card' I'd have half my testers complaining. You just can't please everyone! The recursive level-difficulty-game star system helps with finding where you're missing stars a bit. E.g. If you don't have the game-wide Complete Star you go to the difficulty select and scroll through to see which difficulty doesn't have the Complete Star. Then you can go into that difficulty and scroll through the levels in it to find the levels you haven't completed..


I reckon we could have some great arguments about game design over a beer!! ;D

Thanks man!

I hope you found it helpful and I'm glad you took it the right way. Some people can't take some constructive criticism/opinion! When you get rich from Chopper Mike and start traveling the world let me know if you are near NorCal to go for that beer.
 

razu

Member
I hope you found it helpful and I'm glad you took it the right way. Some people can't take some constructive criticism/opinion! When you get rich from Chopper Mike and start traveling the world let me know if you are near NorCal to go for that beer.

Ha! Taking criticism is the HARDEST! I'm getting better at it, but initial reaction is still usually INFINITE FURY!! :D

Yeah, I'll let you know when I'm rolling in that cash ;)
 

Blizzard

Banned
Just a heads up for anyone interested, the global game jam (http://globalgamejam.org/) is running next Friday through Sunday, January 25-27, 2013.

I have attended for the last two years in two different locations, but this time I think I will skip it since I have a bunch of stuff I should be doing instead. However, it can be a good experience, and it was especially good when I teamed up with two friends, everyone made sure to get a decent amount of sleep in a hotel, and we actually finished a game.
 

Spierek

Member
I'm signed up. Right now I'm doing one game for January, but I might push it back one month if I make something worthwhile during this weekend's GGJ.
 

Spierek

Member
I did but I'm already wishing I hadn't. I don't really want to make 12 games under pressure that suffer in quality over say 3 that might be better in quality.
You're approaching it from the wrong side. If people can make a high quality game during 48h Ludum Dare, then a whole month is plenty enough. You just have to make small, but enjoyable and really polished games.
 

chris-013

Member
So yesterday, I tried Libgdx (JAVA) and it's very nice. There are a lot of tools like sounds, musics, scene2D, camera, etc...

BiUVWs1.png
 

AlexM

Member
You're approaching it from the wrong side. If people can make a high quality game during 48h Ludum Dare, then a whole month is plenty enough. You just have to make small, but enjoyable and really polished games.

I've done that before. Done ludum dare and the GGJ a few times, also done 48 hour jams just as a personal thing.

You have to consider the situation though. I work 2 jobs as a programmer and do game development for PSM on top of that. I really don't have time to jam out a game during the one day I have off. I'd much rather put that time into a project that I finish and polish to a degree that I feel happy with. I don't mind doing a ludum dare once or twice a year but doing it consistently and taking away from more involved projects is a form of regression at this point. There needs to be a balance struck between small projects you dont have to commit to and larger projects that you see through development.

Also when I think 48 hour game jam, really polished games is the last thing I would associate that with.
 

Spierek

Member
Alright, getting a bit of information about your situation changes that. I thought you might have more time on indie development / self coding, but with two jobs and your own projects, it might be hard.
 

GMM

Banned
Finally got my NeoGaf account verified so i can post here :)

I am working on a small iOS adventure game project right now, there has not been too much development on it, but i have so far gotten a lot of core features to work for it, so for now its only for testing game features as i make them and figuring out the graphical threshold i can accomplish with the iPad 3.

Video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2F3W5W7pmc

ioAq1uqTh2oDZ.jpg


All graphical elements used here is only for placeholder purposes.
 

Hazaro

relies on auto-aim
Chopper Mike UI update! Web demo here: http://vamflax.com/ChopperMike/ChopperMikePlay.html

You can use a controller, but I have no idea what your power button/axis will be. Using a 360 pad I have to push right on the right stick to power!! On the PC version you can configure it :D
Very unintuitive menus. I selected the basic chopper and didn't understand why I was so slow. Also picking Medium means I have to scroll between levels to pick the non locked one.

That aside the tightness of controls to get the 3 star was pretty good. I was instantly resetting and it basically demanded a near perfect run.

One thing I'd call attention to is the importance of sense of location and height. If the shadows were more distinct, or maybe some more visual aids or clues (Maybe like varying levels of dust kicking up based on the height of what you hover over) to know my exact height I could control it better.
Oh and the pickup radius feels a tiny tiny bit too small.
Got 14"00 on the Hard level after I found out I can't press Space+Up+Left at the same time. Lot of frustration wondering why I kept crashing on the last red corner block.
 

razu

Member
Very unintuitive menus. I selected the basic chopper and didn't understand why I was so slow. Also picking Medium means I have to scroll between levels to pick the non locked one.

That aside the tightness of controls to get the 3 star was pretty good. I was instantly resetting and it basically demanded a near perfect run.

One thing I'd call attention to is the importance of sense of location and height. If the shadows were more distinct, or maybe some more visual aids or clues (Maybe like varying levels of dust kicking up based on the height of what you hover over) to know my exact height I could control it better.
Oh and the pickup radius feels a tiny tiny bit too small.
Got 14"00 on the Hard level after I found out I can't press Space+Up+Left at the same time. Lot of frustration wondering why I kept crashing on the last red corner block.


Thanks man!

Yeah, I guess I should put you on the first available level when you switch difficulties. I thought about just having a demo difficulty, but wanted to show the other levels.

Height cue is on the list, maybe just scaling the size of the shadow down with height.. If not then dust may be needed.

I think you're right about the gem radius, I will boost that a little.

And yeah... keyboard input can be so frustrating, that's why I mention checking power with all diagonals in the instructions... Sucks!!

Thanks for playing! :D


@RelentlessRolento

Thanks!! :D
 

jarosh

Member
Hey guys, quick hypothetical question...

If one wanted to make an 8-bit Mega Man style game with similar mechanics, art etc., would using something like Flixel be feasible? Or is there something else that's more suited to the task? GameMaker/Studio...?
 

Ranger X

Member
Hey guys, quick hypothetical question...

If one wanted to make an 8-bit Mega Man style game with similar mechanics, art etc., would using something like Flixel be feasible? Or is there something else that's more suited to the task? GameMaker/Studio...?


In my humble opinion, you go 2D you go GameMaker.
 

Blizzard

Banned
Hey guys, quick hypothetical question...

If one wanted to make an 8-bit Mega Man style game with similar mechanics, art etc., would using something like Flixel be feasible? Or is there something else that's more suited to the task? GameMaker/Studio...?
If I'm not mistaken, someone on GAF made Gunman Clive, which is a Megaman-ish game for both PC and 3DS eShop. I don't remember their name offhand, but they might be a good person to ask.
 

beril

Member
He made his own engine so I don't think that's a feasible option.

Yup, Gunman Clive uses a custom engine. It's also using 3D assets, which I don't think was really what he was looking for.

But making an own engine should always be an option. You don't really have to be that experienced to do a simple rendering engine, especially for 2D stuff, and it's a lot of fun.
 

Blizzard

Banned
Yup, Gunman Clive uses a custom engine. It's also using 3D assets, which I don't think was really what he was looking for.

But making an own engine should always be an option. You don't really have to be that experienced to do a simple rendering engine, especially for 2D stuff, and it's a lot of fun.
Ah ok. If it's someone without programming experience I would recommend GameMaker as well (Flixel might not be a BAD option). If it's someone with programming experience, it's kind of up to you whether you want to try the game engine route. It introduces many problems of its own, though it is I suppose a unique learning experience.
 

jarosh

Member
In my humble opinion, you go 2D you go GameMaker.

If I'm not mistaken, someone on GAF made Gunman Clive, which is a Megaman-ish game for both PC and 3DS eShop. I don't remember their name offhand, but they might be a good person to ask.

Yup, Gunman Clive uses a custom engine. It's also using 3D assets, which I don't think was really what he was looking for.

But making an own engine should always be an option. You don't really have to be that experienced to do a simple rendering engine, especially for 2D stuff, and it's a lot of fun.

Ah ok. If it's someone without programming experience I would recommend GameMaker as well (Flixel might not be a BAD option). If it's someone with programming experience, it's kind of up to you whether you want to try the game engine route. It introduces many problems of its own, though it is I suppose a unique learning experience.

Thanks for the input, guys. Appreciate it.

As much as I like the idea of writing my own 2D engine, I don't know if that's really doable for me. I do have some programming experience, but it's only in Visual Basic (mostly writing database applications).

As for GameMaker, I just keep hearing stories of how bug filled it is. And it seems somewhat difficult to create a product that will reliably work on most systems without a ton of issues (see Hotline Miami and Street Fighter x Mega Man, both are still full of glitches and performance issues, the former still doesn't work right with Steamworks etc.).

I know some Mega Man fan games have been made in Flash entirely, like Rokko Chan. Does Flash sound like a good idea?

I'm not afraid to do a bit of programming, to study and learn as I go, but writing my whole engine (and inevitably a level editor) from scratch feels like too much of a daunting and potentially soul crushing experience...
 

Dynamite Shikoku

Congratulations, you really deserve it!
Thanks for the input, guys. Appreciate it.

As much as I like the idea of writing my own 2D engine, I don't know if that's really doable for me. I do have some programming experience, but it's only in Visual Basic (mostly writing database applications).

As for GameMaker, I just keep hearing stories of how bug filled it is. And it seems somewhat difficult to create a product that will reliably work on most systems without a ton of issues (see Hotline Miami and Street Fighter x Mega Man, both are still full of glitches and performance issues, the former still doesn't work right with Steamworks etc.).

I know some Mega Man fan games have been made in Flash entirely, like Rokko Chan. Does Flash sound like a good idea?

I'm not afraid to do a bit of programming, to study and learn as I go, but writing my whole engine (and inevitably a level editor) from scratch feels like too much of a daunting and potentially soul crushing experience...

For what platform? Cocos2d is a good 2D engine for mobile platforms.
 

Noogy

Member
Definitely just PC for now.

I'm also in the 'do your engine if possible' camp. It's obviously more work up front, but as I continued to add and push mechanics, I appreciated knowing the ins and outs of my own engine, and iteration went faster than if I had to spend all my time researching how to hack someone else's tools.

That was a long winded way of saying 'why not try it'?
 

jarosh

Member
I'm also in the 'do your engine if possible' camp. It's obviously more work up front, but as I continued to add and push mechanics, I appreciated knowing the ins and outs of my own engine, and iteration went faster than if I had to spend all my time researching how to hack someone else's tools.

That was a long winded way of saying 'why not try it'?

Oh hi! You made Dust (which I still haven't played, apologies!) - awesome! I did read your article on Gamasutra though, which I loved. Very insightful stuff.

I was already dead set on either using Flash or GameMaker, to be honest! Looking at Dust, I don't have anything quite as elaborate in mind, both visually or mechanically. Like I said, think of what an 8-bit Mega Man game does: it won't be much more involved than that. No particle system, no hundreds of sprites on screen, no complicated scripting (I hope).

I am totally the kind of person who'd go all out, writing their own engine and everything. I'm self-taught in almost everything I'm good at in life. Just not sure it's entirely necessary in this case...
 
Unless you're loading in a SERIOUS amount of assets, you can actually just load everything in at once from the content pipeline. I literally loaded every single asset in Sequence at startup. = D

does that include all of your audio? i know you had roughly 80 minutes of recorded dialogue in the game. i'm wondering how all of that plus art assets fit into the 360's ram (if it did i'm assuming the audio was heavily compressed?).

also, did you use XACT for sequence?
 

Feep

Banned
does that include all of your audio? i know you had roughly 80 minutes of recorded dialogue in the game. i'm wondering how all of that plus art assets fit into the 360's ram (if it did i'm assuming the audio was heavily compressed?).

also, did you use XACT for sequence?
No, I just used the SoundEffect/MediaPlayer APIs. For the XBLIG version (at the time), the game was capped at 150 MB, which expanded out to around 250 MB at runtime. The Xbox 360 has about double that in terms of RAM, so it was no problem. Everything fit at once.

It was compressed, .mp3 at around 96kbps.
 

nicoga3000

Saint Nic
Thanks for the input, guys. Appreciate it.

As much as I like the idea of writing my own 2D engine, I don't know if that's really doable for me. I do have some programming experience, but it's only in Visual Basic (mostly writing database applications).

As for GameMaker, I just keep hearing stories of how bug filled it is. And it seems somewhat difficult to create a product that will reliably work on most systems without a ton of issues (see Hotline Miami and Street Fighter x Mega Man, both are still full of glitches and performance issues, the former still doesn't work right with Steamworks etc.).

I know some Mega Man fan games have been made in Flash entirely, like Rokko Chan. Does Flash sound like a good idea?

I'm not afraid to do a bit of programming, to study and learn as I go, but writing my whole engine (and inevitably a level editor) from scratch feels like too much of a daunting and potentially soul crushing experience...

What sort of bugs are you referring to? Studio has been working great for me.
 

jarosh

Member
What sort of bugs are you referring to? Studio has been working great for me.

I've been reading the GameMaker blog and among other things they linked this story: http://moacube.com/blog/professional-developers-look-at-gamemaker/

Now, they have a lot of good things to say, but some of the bug related stuff sounds like a nightmare. Though they are talking about GameMaker and not Studio. I'm honestly a little confused as to which one I should look into anyway. Wasn't Studio supposed to replace GM8/8.1? Would you personally recommend Studio over GM? According to the OP and going by what I read in other GM communities, Studio is supposed to be faster, though supposedly even buggier than GM8...
 

nicoga3000

Saint Nic
I've been reading the GameMaker blog and among other things they linked this story: http://moacube.com/blog/professional-developers-look-at-gamemaker/

Now, they have a lot of good things to say, but some of the bug related stuff sounds like a nightmare. Though they are talking about GameMaker and not Studio. I'm honestly a little confused as to which one I should look into anyway. Wasn't Studio supposed to replace GM8/8.1? Would you personally recommend Studio over GM? According to the OP and going by what I read in other GM communities, Studio is supposed to be faster, though supposedly even buggier than GM8...

Studio started out lacking, but has since been improved to be a very strong and stable GM environment. Regarding his negatives:

Mac Version - Yes, it's bad (could be better now). If you're using a Mac, I suggest bootcamp or don't use GM.

Issues with fullscreen on Windows7 - I hadn't heard of this issue. It could be an issue, but some of the other GM folks would have to speak on it. Studio may have fixed this problem/updates since this blog was written.

Sprite loading issues in GM8.1 - I seem to remember this being addressed in the past year, so this point [I think] is moot.

Awkward dev schedule - Studio is available and 8.1 has been updated, but I think Studio will be the flagship from here on out. The older versions will likely not receive the updates that Studio will be receiving.

Built-in editors are bad - The sprite editor is not that great, but I would never suggest anyone do assets inside a game editor anyways. The level editor isn't terrible, but it's not incredible, either.

Lack of portability - Studio says hi.

Teamwork on GM is hard - He even addresses the fact that Studio fixes this.

Uncertain future - I could argue this, but I won't. GM is (and has been for MANY years) a very viable and blossoming environment for amateur and indie developers. Studio brings a LOT to the table, and the author of that blog knew that going into this. With the iOS and Android export, Studio has put itself on a new level.

My opinion? If you decide to go with GM, go with Studio. If you decide to go with another environment, no harm no foul. :)
 

jarosh

Member
Studio started out lacking, but has since been improved to be a very strong and stable GM environment. Regarding his negatives:

Mac Version - Yes, it's bad (could be better now). If you're using a Mac, I suggest bootcamp or don't use GM.

Issues with fullscreen on Windows7 - I hadn't heard of this issue. It could be an issue, but some of the other GM folks would have to speak on it. Studio may have fixed this problem/updates since this blog was written.

Sprite loading issues in GM8.1 - I seem to remember this being addressed in the past year, so this point [I think] is moot.

Awkward dev schedule - Studio is available and 8.1 has been updated, but I think Studio will be the flagship from here on out. The older versions will likely not receive the updates that Studio will be receiving.

Built-in editors are bad - The sprite editor is not that great, but I would never suggest anyone do assets inside a game editor anyways. The level editor isn't terrible, but it's not incredible, either.

Lack of portability - Studio says hi.

Teamwork on GM is hard - He even addresses the fact that Studio fixes this.

Uncertain future - I could argue this, but I won't. GM is (and has been for MANY years) a very viable and blossoming environment for amateur and indie developers. Studio brings a LOT to the table, and the author of that blog knew that going into this. With the iOS and Android export, Studio has put itself on a new level.

My opinion? If you decide to go with GM, go with Studio. If you decide to go with another environment, no harm no foul. :)

Awesome! Thanks so much for the advice! I will definitely give Studio a shot then.
 

Ranger X

Member
As for GameMaker, I just keep hearing stories of how bug filled it is. And it seems somewhat difficult to create a product that will reliably work on most systems without a ton of issues (see Hotline Miami and Street Fighter x Mega Man, both are still full of glitches and performance issues, the former still doesn't work right with Steamworks etc.).

GameMaker 8.1 is very stable and bug free. Studio version is more bugged but nothing out of the ordinary (Unreal is a festival of bugs and no one cry). The problem with GameMaker is that many people ditched it as a practice tool and that its not a serious program. Its the sad reputation this program is having. However now its not the same anymore. GameMaker is extremely viable, accessible and outputs on all important platforms (outside home consoles). The GML language is also easy to learn and let's you do all of what you need for your 2D games. If the whole thing performs bad, it will be more on you than on GameMaker really.
 

jarosh

Member
GameMaker 8.1 is very stable and bug free. Studio version is more bugged but nothing out of the ordinary (Unreal is a festival of bugs and no one cry). The problem with GameMaker is that many people ditched it as a practice tool and that its not a serious program. Its the sad reputation this program is having. However now its not the same anymore. GameMaker is extremely viable, accessible and outputs on all important platforms (outside home consoles). The GML language is also easy to learn and let's you do all of what you need for your 2D games. If the whole thing performs bad, it will be more on you than on GameMaker really.

That kind of thing is a sad reality in a lot of other fields as well. I'm not too worried about its reputation, I've had a successful career in an entirely different field with tools most did not consider "professional". As long as I get the results I want, I really don't care. ;)
 

Blizzard

Banned
I thought Studio was supposed to have some problems or bugs compared to 8.1, but it sounds like those may have been ironed out?

Also I think Studio has Steam workshop integration, so it's potentially easy to share free stuff with people.
 

Jocchan

Ὁ μεμβερος -ου
Thanks for the input, guys. Appreciate it.

As much as I like the idea of writing my own 2D engine, I don't know if that's really doable for me. I do have some programming experience, but it's only in Visual Basic (mostly writing database applications).

As for GameMaker, I just keep hearing stories of how bug filled it is. And it seems somewhat difficult to create a product that will reliably work on most systems without a ton of issues (see Hotline Miami and Street Fighter x Mega Man, both are still full of glitches and performance issues, the former still doesn't work right with Steamworks etc.).

I know some Mega Man fan games have been made in Flash entirely, like Rokko Chan. Does Flash sound like a good idea?

I'm not afraid to do a bit of programming, to study and learn as I go, but writing my whole engine (and inevitably a level editor) from scratch feels like too much of a daunting and potentially soul crushing experience...
When Dudebro was switched to a 2D sidescroller, Mega Man was one of the main inspirations, and we went with XNA (custom made engine using Farseer Physics Engine).

Someone made a classic Mega Man engine for XNA in case you're interested: https://github.com/Tesserex/C--MegaMan-Engine
No idea how complete it is, but going by the videos on YouTube it seems quite decent: http://www.youtube.com/user/Tesserex?feature=watch
 

Ranger X

Member
I thought Studio was supposed to have some problems or bugs compared to 8.1, but it sounds like those may have been ironed out?

Also I think Studio has Steam workshop integration, so it's potentially easy to share free stuff with people.

There are not as many bug as people are vocal on the net about it...
 

Noogy

Member
No, I just used the SoundEffect/MediaPlayer APIs. For the XBLIG version (at the time), the game was capped at 150 MB, which expanded out to around 250 MB at runtime. The Xbox 360 has about double that in terms of RAM, so it was no problem. Everything fit at once.

It was compressed, .mp3 at around 96kbps.

Interesting. Up until the month I shipped, I had all my voice over playing through the SoundEffect/MediaPlayer API as well, but there was something weird about how all those wav files (1700+) were being enumerated, and at the very last minute I had to run it all through XACT.

I'm not sure which is easier to work with... with XACT it's more work to create libraries and load them into memory, but you get those nice XACT post-processing effects. Mediaplayer gives you more control over the audio playback and it's trivial loading and playing a file. I guess they both have advantages.
 

bumpkin

Member
Hmm... I hope that there's some truth to the rumor about Nintendo removing the physical office space restriction for applying to be an eShop developer. That would certainly open the door for a lot of not-yet-established indie devs.
 
Issues with fullscreen on Windows7 - I hadn't heard of this issue. It could be an issue, but some of the other GM folks would have to speak on it. Studio may have fixed this problem/updates since this blog was written.

As far as I can tell, this is fixed. There's a checkbox in the project settings that lets you pick between interpolation or nearest-neighbor scaling.

The problem with GameMaker is that many people ditched it as a practice tool and that its not a serious program. Its the sad reputation this program is having.

Yeah, the reputation thing is funny -- there have recently been several well-known, commercial indie games based on Game Maker that most people don't even recognize as Game Maker.
 

AlexM

Member
Hmm... I hope that there's some truth to the rumor about Nintendo removing the physical office space restriction for applying to be an eShop developer. That would certainly open the door for a lot of not-yet-established indie devs.

I didnt even know that exists. I guess your bedroom doesnt count? :D
 

Feep

Banned
Interesting. Up until the month I shipped, I had all my voice over playing through the SoundEffect/MediaPlayer API as well, but there was something weird about how all those wav files (1700+) were being enumerated, and at the very last minute I had to run it all through XACT.

I'm not sure which is easier to work with... with XACT it's more work to create libraries and load them into memory, but you get those nice XACT post-processing effects. Mediaplayer gives you more control over the audio playback and it's trivial loading and playing a file. I guess they both have advantages.
At least for songs, I actually needed the MediaPlayer API, which exposes a variable "PlayPosition", which I used to sync up the music to my arrows. I tried just starting a timer concurrently with starting the song, but it never gave precise results.

I actually packed all the voiceover files into Nick Gravelyn's "EasyPak" format...otherwise, it was taking something like 90 seconds to load everything in. There were about 1300 voiceover lines total in Sequence. Seemed to work okay, though I would have gone to XACT if I'd needed it.
 
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