Introduction to MOBAs

brian! said:
he also liked to cheese baron with vlad's offering

yeah league stats are pretty linear, you buy hp for hp, armor for armor, atspd for atpsd, etc.
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Roshan, bro.

Mauling Rosh at a relatively low lvl is what Ursa is supposed to do, it's also pretty easy to stop it.
 
brian! said:
hex seems so expensive just to do that though
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Ursa as a carry scales with disables/gapclosers. His Kit gives him all the damage he needs outside of one or two items, but he is really easy to kite if he only goes for pure damage.

Blink gives him mobility, hex gives him one of the strongest singletarget disables in the game and supplies all of his mana, vlads gives him his lifesteal and ability to solo roshan in the early game.
 
SteveWinwood said:
Oh I thought there were more underlying stats that they didn't surface. So if you want health you just get a straight +hp item there is no such thing as strength into health? Interesting. And it's the same with defense right? Physical and magic resist?
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Correct there's no attributes.
 
well in this case hex still seems like a "best in slot" item vs. an item built for situational use; ursa gets a shitload of use just based on his own kit.

I was thinking about heroes that built these items, mainly for the active, in a reactive way when the stats arent necessarily great for them, not like in a core buy kind of way. besides bkb of course
 
brian! said:
well in this case hex still seems like a "best in slot" item vs. an item built for situational use; ursa gets a shitload of use just based on his own kit.

I was thinking about heroes that built these items, mainly for the active, in a reactive way when the stats arent necessarily great for them, not like in a core buy kind of way. besides bkb of course
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This will be far more common for supports. That said, a core hero getting say a Heaven's Halberd when you are getting rekt by a carry with tons of dps might be what you mean.
 
I don't know, I always felt I had more itemization choices in Dota then LoL, but I think the most diversity comes from like position 2 or 3 int heroes. Like Nature's Prophet is a hero that is all about itemization and has a lot of options available to him (Even though most people seem to just go Midas -> Shadow Blade -> Deso or the like)
 
Kongor is a pain in the ass. He makes roshan look like a wimp. I don't think there's any heroes that can solo him anymore (there isn't an ursa port).
 
brian! said:
yeah I was mostly trying to gauge the freedom of item buys in dota vs. league, but it seems like it's pretty similar
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Items in Dota are a means to achieving your end. Sure you can play to the easiest plan (complimenting your hero's stated purpose) but if you have some off the wall pocket strat or are desperate to counter something on the board, good itemization is probably going to make it possible. I'm the "bard" (i.e. jack of all trades, master of none) in my regular stack and I have to be flexible with my itemization all the time.

You lack freedom wrt items in Dota in how punishing it is if you just aimlessly build nothing. Even if the plan doesn't come to fruition, you need to have a plan when you start buying or else you're just wasting money.
 
^
This basically. I'd honestly say that apart from some heroes the stats are not why you buy a lot of items over others. You look at what your team has and doesn't have via it's skills, and try to fill gaps. You also look at what the enemy has and pick items that counter that. I mean I imagine that this is the same in league but I have no idea what items there are. In fact I'm gonna look it up what the hell.
 
It's easier to clown too. You'll rarely buy AP items on ADC even when you're trying to be clowny because scaling skills are just so important.

On the other hand, you can do goofy shit like 5 dagon and make it work through sheer team play.
 
yeah it's pretty similar in league though reactive items often have to do with an offense/defense mindset. There used to be a good amount of auras to build, but team-centric items are relegated to maybe at most 2 players. team comps often have a lot more to do with the champs chosen, with item choices being made to further the initial idea present at champ select rather than changing it on the fly in game
 
So cus I was curious I looked up Active items. Honestly it looks like there are just as many active ones in League as Dota, just perhaps a little less diverse. I read a lot of varying slow effects, lol. Oh and Debuffers. More of them than Dota, though I imagine that's cus no BKB. I didn't spot any hard stuns, but that's just a League thing in general really isn't it.
 
It depends on the hero really, But there's some leeway in the choice itself: Do I buy an assault cuirass for the armor, attack speed and -minus armor passive radius or do I buy Shiva's guard for the armor, extra intelligence so I can cast more spells and the active aoe slow ability?

For initiation, do I buy blink dagger for the quick initiates or do I go shadow blade for the extra damage and invis active that allows me to initiate also?


Also, rip Boken.
 
brian! said:
dota question
so in league people usually get items that are good in a lot of ways for their champs and there are a lot less utility items a la hex or euls; a lot of situational buying has to do with timing of items and thinking do I need mr or armor

but in dota, say a euls or hex would be mighty good for your team. however you are not an int hero so you aren't like making the most of the stats. do you still get one of these items if you arent using their attributes as well as you could?

like when I was playing dota 1 I would never get a euls or hex on naix, I'd usually follow the same build (at the time armlet was really good, bkb was still good even though he had magic immunity built in, you know mostly strength shit)
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Depends on the situation and your team comp vs theirs.

In general if you can get to a Scythe of Vyse it almost always will pay for itself, but a close item (Orchid) has a longer silence, is cheaper, gives attack speed/mana regen, and a magic nuke. Heroes who pick this up are Storm Spirit / WR / Clinkz (Agi hero) who use it to gank/nuke people or support in fights.
As others mentioned building an INT hex item on someone like Ursa is beneficial because of the movement slow allows him to dump his damage from skills.

Usually you'll build within your hero, or support items if you are support. Disables are for everyone.

TharpDaddy said:
Dota folks, what do you think about Riot's LCS format? Would it be something you would be interested in Valve going for?
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Drkirby said:
To be honest, I feel its both a really good idea and also the most likely thing to cause LoL to lose their #1 eSport spot. Its pretty nice to have teams on a salary and playing regular games on a constant schedule, but making teams have exclusivity clauses with Riot killed all third party tournaments.

For Dota, there is a very large and healthy tournament scene going on. You have several organizations trying different formats and prize pools, all trying to attract both players and viewer. Valve giving tournaments money from ticket sales helps run a bunch of amateur leagues which is important in the long term, and there are tournaments the run the full scope of "These people have played like 2 dozen games and are drunk" to "Best NA VS Best of China Right here Right now in Ukraine", and several of them will do things like "And now to pit this up and coming Team vs the winners of the International, good luck boys!" Having the yearly international also encourage teams to try and be the best if only to win that once a year super huge prize (And these days, there is enough smaller cup that as long as you can place in enough you can make a decent living)

I just really think Dota has the heather tournament scene because right now its more organic and actually supported by the community, where League's is basically 'to big to fail' and the only contest around. I think the best move would be for Riot to let teams compete in other organizer's events while keeping their current LCS.

Enough. But I think RNG is likely for the best as a spectator sport, so it becomes a bit of knowing how to react to unforeseen circumstances instead of just perfect play.
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It has it's pros and cons.
A dedicated salary means more teams can compete at a high level (fantastic)
It shuts down a lot of smaller tournaments (very bad, but also a lot of these are not run well / viewed at all)
A lot of hype surrounding matches just goes into a long tournament season instead of multiple large events (bad)

I can load up Dota right now and check the tournaments in the client, their calendars, see what is live, see prize pool and regions, buy a tournament ticket, etc.
No one comes close to Valve on this and should be the gold standard. It also enables the community to be allowed to run it's own supported tournaments and completely sustain them own it's own which I think is just about all you can ask for.

(Contributed = amount of $ from ticket % commission from buyers to the prize pool)
Some notable examples are for the DC Captains Draft (24 random hero pool) that was $20,000 and became $40,000 from ticket sales. All VODs are free on Youtube / Twitch so you don't have to pay if you don't want, but tournaments usually have a free item / set / courier / wards and you support the cause.

In the in game replay you can select the camera control by person and broadcaster team (~7 slots of 4 people each).
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Hazaro said:
Depends on the situation and your team comp vs theirs.

In general if you can get to a Scythe of Vyse it almost always will pay for itself, but a close item (Orchid) has a longer silence, is cheaper, gives attack speed/mana regen, and a magic nuke. Heroes who pick this up are Storm Spirit / WR / Clinkz (Agi hero) who use it to gank/nuke people or support in fights.
As others mentioned building an INT hex item on someone like Ursa is beneficial because of the movement slow allows him to dump his damage from skills.
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oh yeah, I was just trying to figure out if there was bkb status situational buys, im surprised clinkz gets it though, though he does get a lot of damage from his ult and orbz (this was the case in dota 1, I don't know if they changed his kit)

ok the most cursory google search has shown that he has the same kit, except with the important difference that windwalk is now skeleton walk
 
brian! said:
oh yeah, I was just trying to figure out if there was bkb status situational buys, im surprised clinkz gets it though
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Clinkz' modus operandi is to run around the map, find an isolated target and quickly murder it before it gets to run or fight. Orchid Silences and Amplifies damage, which synergizes with his need to quickly murder an opponent before it can react.

Hex does almost the same thing but has a worse buildup and is far more expensive.
 
orchid was the weapon of choice in dota 1 yeah
I'm surprised all these assassins are getting hex, does pa, riki, etc. get it as well?
 
brian! said:
orchid was the weapon of choice in dota 1 yeah
I'm surprised all these assassins are getting hex, does pa, riki, etc. get it as well?
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Riki gets Diffusal typically. PA varies but I like a quick basher myself. She's my fave hero, if you have balls of steel you get basher before BKB or lifesteal and go ham. Getting it after those two is generally smarter though.
 
brian! said:
orchid was the weapon of choice in dota 1 yeah
I'm surprised all these assassins are getting hex, does pa, riki, etc. get it as well?
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No, those heroes need items to scale in damage.

the reason Ursa and Clinkz can viably get a CC item is because they scale through skills rather than items. Ursa gets plenty of damage through fury swipes, and Clinkz has death pact. These heroes are played as counters to hard carries, so they are built to take down one hero instantly before his teammate can react to back him up. Hex is useful for this playstyle because it makes it less likely that they will be able to escape.

It doesn't matter if the item doesn't scale their dps efficiently, because if it goes late game and the enemy carry gets farmed they failed their role. Basically any hard carry would crush a clinkz or and ursa in a 6 slot vs 6 slot battle not matter how much damage those heroes build, so they have to build to keep the carry from getting that farmed.

Storm spirit and WR are int heroes, so hex is a no brainer for them.
 
dota 2 builds seem to be the exact same builds as dota 1, and situational buys seems largely similar to league where you go "core->situational"

for some reason I was thinking about teams with like maybe 3-4 hexes, but I probably just misinterpreted the original statement
 
Well it is the same game after all, what's good in Dota 1 will still be good in Dota 2. That said, I hear reports of very different item choices whenever someone speaks of playing in Dota 1. Though that maybe is because all the good players from your time moved to Dota 2 by now. (Or League etc but somewhere).
 
Woah over 50 pages already.

I've been playing moba's since the whole shebang started as a mod for warcraft:RoC. I even played against Eul haha.

Most humilliating, my skills are poor. I just happen to enoy the game.

Anyways, my 2 cents is that dota 2 is the most polished, HoN gets very creative with heroes (which also means failed experiments as much as amazing designs) and that LoL is boring.

Your mileage may vary, etc etc.
 
brian! said:
dota 2 builds seem to be the exact same builds as dota 1, and situational buys seems largely similar to league where you go "core->situational"

for some reason I was thinking about teams with like maybe 3-4 hexes, but I probably just misinterpreted the original statement
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Just have to think of it like this:

Hex is an anti carry item that is useful when the enemy has a high impact carry that you need to shut down but your heroes don't have enough disable through skills alone.

If you have a lion/shadow shaman/bane/etc you are much less likely to build a hex on a situational hero because you have plenty of disable as it is.

If you somehow ended up with a team that has no disables and your enemy has an antimage, you are going to need a hex, and if the carry hero can farm it fastest, then that's what happens even if it is not the ideal item for that hero. Most carries can't really get away with this, Ursa and Clinkz are pretty unique in this situation, so it is usually the mid that gets the hex. a QoP/Storm/Puck/OD can get a hex in not much more time than a free farm safe lane carry without it gimping their item progression.

The 4 and 5 role heroes will almost never have enough farm for a hex, so games with 3-4 hexes are exceedingly rare.
 
Razzer said:
Well it is the same game after all, what's good in Dota 1 will still be good in Dota 2. That said, I hear reports of very different item choices whenever someone speaks of playing in Dota 1. Though that maybe is because all the good players from your time moved to Dota 2 by now. (Or League etc but somewhere).
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i mean the game was still very fotm style at the time, so I'm totally interested in the state of the game. this interest manifests in me assaulting the thread with questions tho

at the time bloodstone was really strong but kinda on the downswing, the fotm champs in pub games were things that could use armlet well and things like banshee, undying, lycan. I didn't really watch the pro scene that much, but as far as I remember the bat, dark seer, windrunner, and the wombo champs (puck, enigma, u kno) were pretty highly valued, so I'm definitely interested in how the meta has evolved

iamblades said:
Just have to think of it like this:

Hex is an anti carry item that is useful when the enemy has a high impact carry that you need to shut down but your heroes don't have enough disable through skills alone.

If you have a lion/shadow shaman/bane/etc you are much less likely to build a hex on a situational hero because you have plenty of disable as it is.

If you somehow ended up with a team that has no disables and your enemy has an antimage, you are going to need a hex, and if the carry hero can farm it fastest, then that's what happens even if it is not the ideal item for that hero. Most carries can't really get away with this, Ursa and Clinkz are pretty unique in this situation, so it is usually the mid that gets the hex. a QoP/Storm/Puck/OD can get a hex in not much more time than a free farm safe lane carry without it gimping their item progression.
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yeah that makes sense. I carried that thinking to league for a little while, but it doesn't really apply in the same way, so I think I'm getting closer to the difference. For example, there are not a lot of situations where you build a cc giving item because your team lacks it in their kit; you won't buy a rylai's scepter (which gives slow upon magic damage) or bilgewater cutlass (which gives a targeted slow) to make up for a team lack, though you might get it for a lack in your own kit.

there are support items that came out this season which change that a little, though the main consideration is still laning: an item that gives aoe speed boost, an item that's a mini nuke with an aoe slow, and an item that gives a shield that explodes. but the main thing in league is that almost all of the situational active buys can be predetermined in champ select based on team comp, rather than reactive in game
 
Been playing some Smite recently and it's pretty decent, I mainly stick to Arena, Joust and Assault modes playing the Dota mode just feels too strange for me with the 3rd person camera angle.

Tried playing some League again and I really miss the in-game guides from Dota, picking a Champion and having no idea what to skill or the runes/masteries I should have is something I thought Riot would have done more about (unless I missed something). Though my biggest issue with League has to be the region locking, it would be fine if all the Champions were unlocked but having to buy stuff twice because I want to play NA/EU is just ridiculous.
 
Ikuu said:
Been playing some Smite recently and it's pretty decent, I mainly stick to Arena, Joust and Assault modes playing the Dota mode just feels too strange for me with the 3rd person camera angle.

Tried playing some League again and I really miss the in-game guides from Dota, picking a Champion and having no idea what to skill or the runes/masteries I should have is something I thought Riot would have done more about (unless I missed something). Though my biggest issue with League has to be the region locking, it would be fine if all the Champions were unlocked but having to buy stuff twice because I want to play NA/EU is just ridiculous.
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I know it's not exactly what you want, but SoloMid and LoLKing generally have good guides these days.

If you want to keep playing League people in LoLGAF (or here) or in the NeoGAF chat rooms on each server are generally really nice and up for helping people getting started with League.

Separate regions isn't good, but there are so many people per server that having unified servers and accounts would be a complete nightmare at this stage. They've already had to split EU into two main servers (although almost everyone uses EUW) and other, smaller regional servers like Russia, Turkey etc.

I would eventually like to see it so that I can log in to each server with the same account, but I dunno how realistic that is.

oh, also when you're starting out might be an idea to use item sets. You can set up item sets from within the client for specific champions and maps. So if you see a guide you like you could set up an item set for that champ and use it in game. Sorta hamfisted but they're pretty handy considering recommended items in the game will only get you so far.

-----------------------------------

as an aside, like honestly why can't I scale my HUD in Dota 2? it's so unwieldy.
 
So... Which champs should I give a try in LoL if I like playing these Dota 2 heroes:

Witch Doctor, Windrunner, Troll Warlord, Pugna, Razor, Mirana, Death Prophet, Templar Assassin and Keeper of the Light?

Are there equivalents for (most or any) of them? I mostly play Annie in LoL, but I suck so much playing her.
 
Reila said:
So... Which champs should I give a try in LoL if I like playing these Dota 2 heroes:

Witch Doctor, Windrunner, Troll Warlord, Pugna, Razor, Mirana, Death Prophet, Templar Assassin and Keeper of the Light?

Are there equivalents for (most or any) of them? I mostly play Annie in LoL, but I suck so much playing her.
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Teemo, Badger Teemo, Cottontail Teemo, Super Teemo, Astronaut Teemo, Happy Elf Teemo, Recon Teemo, Panda Teemo, and Teemo.
 
Granadier said:
Teemo, Badger Teemo, Cottontail Teemo, Super Teemo, Astronaut Teemo, Happy Elf Teemo, Recon Teemo, Panda Teemo, and Teemo.
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don't listen to his lies.


man I wish I could have Windrunner in League.

She would have the most broken kit for an ADC in the game. Max attack speed ult and 100% dodge :lol
 
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