Introduction to MOBAs

Head of Vengarl

Head of Vengarl

Banned
All Dota 2 and LoL skins pale in comparison to Smite's newly revealed World Cup skins for the god Xbalanque:

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Vuvuzela OP.
 
I

Imperfected

Member
Edwardo said:
There were like 12 of them at pax east. So I'd say around 70.
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I guess it depends on if you're counting Kentia Hall as being part of E3.

I actually expect the rush to develop (bizarrely) western-focused MOBAs and genre-mashups (Smite, Infinite Crisis, SMC, etc.) to taper off heavily, but be replaced either with actual eastern MOBA development or at least development of MOBAs that are correctly identifying the eastern market as their primary target.

Or maybe Microsoft will announce a Halo MOBA, apparently the baseline development costs are low enough you can get away with being sort of a go-nowhere MOBA project for four or five years before someone actually stops to ask who your game was being made for. (Seriously, what was the target market for a Dead Island MOBA...?)
 
D

DivineRage002

Member
I think this may be the best place to ask.

Do you guys consider Dota2 to have overtaken LoL as far as esports go?

According to esportsearnings.com, the top 8 biggest earners in esports are all dota 2 players, and 44 of the top 100 are dota players, as far as LoL goes, the highest on the list comes in only at the 44th spot, and only 10 managed to break into the top 100.

Furthermore, dota 2's TI beat the biggest prize pool in history of esports two years in a row, which league can't seem to tackle.

Opinions?
 
E

Einbroch

Banned
DivineRage002 said:
I think this may be the best place to ask.

Do you guys consider Dota2 to have overtaken LoL as far as esports go?

According to esportsearnings.com, the top 8 biggest earners in esports are all dota 2 players, and 44 of the top 100 are dota players, as far as LoL goes, the highest on the list comes in only at the 44th spot, and only 10 managed to break into the top 100.

Furthermore, dota 2's TI beat the biggest prize pool in history of esports two years in a row, which league can't seem to tackle.

Opinions?
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Does not count salaries and streaming. League individuals are paid ~20-30k a year (in addition to prize money, which isn't as much as Dota 2, admittedly), with five members on each team and eight teams in each region. League streamers get 30k+ viewers, most on Dota don't reach 20k.

More people watched League of Legends Worlds than watched TI3. Numbers aren't out yet, but I would guess Worlds 2013 had many times the number of viewers as TI4.

This is not an indication of quality, but rather popularity.
 
R

Randdalf

Member
DivineRage002 said:
I think this may be the best place to ask.

Do you guys consider Dota2 to have overtaken LoL as far as esports go?

According to esportsearnings.com, the top 8 biggest earners in esports are all dota 2 players, and 44 of the top 100 are dota players, as far as LoL goes, the highest on the list comes in only at the 44th spot, and only 10 managed to break into the top 100.

Furthermore, dota 2's TI beat the biggest prize pool in history of esports two years in a row, which league can't seem to tackle.

Opinions?
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I think League will be as big as Riot want it to be, because they essentially control LoL as an esport, whereas Valve take a more, not necessarily hands-off approach, but encourage the community to grow the scene. Whilst TI is still by far the biggest tournament, the prize pools in independently run Dota 2 tournaments such as Starladder, ESL One, The Summit, MLG Columbus, etc. have all increased, because Valve let them sell tickets to watch the tournaments in-game, rather than directly fund them.
 
I

iamblades

Member
Einbroch said:
Does not count salaries and streaming. League individuals are paid ~20-30k a year (in addition to prize money, which isn't as much as Dota 2, admittedly), with five members on each team and eight teams in each region. League streamers get 30k+ viewers, most on Dota don't reach 20k.

More people watched League of Legends Worlds than watched TI3. Numbers aren't out yet, but I would guess Worlds 2013 had many times the number of viewers as TI4.

This is not an indication of quality, but rather popularity.
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Well all of the bigger Dota teams also pay a salary as well, it is just paid by their teams from sponsorship revenue instead of Valve. The numbers aren't publicly known, but it was rumored a while back that Dendi gets paid a $45k base salary.

The streaming thing is just because pro dota players rarely stream compared to league players. I can count like 6 pros I have ever seen streaming multiple times, SingSing, Dendi, RTZ, EE, Bulldog and Fear. Any one of that group can easily hit 20k viewers.

The pub streaming thing also may not be a great thing for the game as a whole either. I remember a lot of controversy when I played and followed LoL about all the high profile NA pros spending all their time streaming instead of practicing for tournaments because it was more financially lucrative. This has probably changed somewhat as the prizepools have increased, but it is a potential issue.
 
G

Gully State

Member
iamblades said:
Well all of the bigger Dota teams also pay a salary as well, it is just paid by their teams from sponsorship revenue instead of Valve. The numbers aren't publicly known, but it was rumored a while back that Dendi gets paid a $45k base salary.

The streaming thing is just because pro dota players rarely stream compared to league players. I can count like 6 pros I have ever seen streaming multiple times, SingSing, Dendi, RTZ, EE, Bulldog and Fear. Any one of that group can easily hit 20k viewers.

The pub streaming thing also may not be a great thing for the game as a whole either. I remember a lot of controversy when I played and followed LoL about all the high profile NA pros spending all their time streaming instead of practicing for tournaments because it was more financially lucrative. This has probably changed somewhat as the prizepools have increased, but it is a potential issue.
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Apparently Ferrari's stream hit 130K viewers on Chinese stream sites. So Twitch doesn't tell the whole story.
 
M

mkenyon

Banned
DivineRage002 said:
Opinions?
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This is my gut instinct on the situation. Dota 2's community really generally seems to be more adult oriented. For my own anecdote, I don't know a single person above the age of 25 who is married and plays LoL. This is not a value based judgement. The only point of this is that I think there's a lot more disposable income to tap into from Dota 2 players.

Valve knows how to tap into the wallets of its players, and is far more savvy about how to turn that into marketing money for the esport.

It's like if there was an election. Candidate A has tons of money thrown at them, with TV ads, radio ads, billboards, the whole shebang. But they don't have nearly the support of Candidate B who is running a more grassroots campaign, with campaign managers that aren't as good at getting the word out through mass media.
 
S

SteveWinwood

Member
Flare said:
Yea, I don't get that either. Riot's inconsistent with their rulings.

The other teams need to realize the game's over and surrender or take advantage of the fact that the winning team is fooling around.
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yeah id agree with that completely

i just dont understand it at all
 
H

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
So, after a team calls "gg", the game continues until the throne is down? What?
 
P

Pureauthor

Member
Wait, so in Dota the random pubbers cannot GG but the pro players can tap out whenever they want.

And in LoL the pubbers can GG out at 20 minutes but the pros have to play until Throne?

... odd
 
I

iamblades

Member
ocho said:
Earnings will forever be skewed because of TI's crazy price pools. LoL is still more popular as far as I know.
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The bigger issue isn't popularity, but sustainability.

Dota and The International are highly sustainable in E-sports because it is both (highly) profitable for Valve, and they don't squash all other competitions throughout the rest of the year.

As soon as Riot decides the marketing payoff for running the LCS isn't worth the costs, the LoL pro scene will instantly dry up, regardless of how many people watch it because it isn't profitable.

Also if Dota 2 continues its 300% annual YoY playerbase growth, that popularity lead won't last much longer.

That story about fines for non-standard 'trolling' item builds is ridiculous. What kind of conformist nightmare do these people want to live in. You are supposed to be pros, take the L with dignity because it is 100% your fault, just like when a QB throws for 500 yards on a team in football. Do something to stop them if you don't like being stomped.

Also if I hear one more person talking about 'toxicity' I am going to lose my shit. If you are going to complain about something, at least make a genuine argument, none of this bland general bullshit.
 
H

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
Riot is not likely to abandon the LCS anytime soon, costs or no costs. It's a fundamental part of their marketing strategy and to stop supporting it entirely might as well be the same thing as stopping support of League. If it turns out to be a money sink, they might change up the format so it's easier to run, and invite more third-party tournaments, but they'd never close up shop on it entirely.
 
P

Pureauthor

Member
Isn't a big complaint now that Riot is focusing too much on the esports side of things, to the detriment of other stuff that needs work?
 
S

SteveWinwood

Member
Pureauthor said:
Isn't a big complaint now that Riot is focusing too much on the esports side of things, to the detriment of other stuff that needs work?
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i thought the main complaint now a days was trying to figure out what they were in fact focusing on at all

like with the amount of people working there and nothing is really happening on any front

replays have been coming for 3 years now? (riot time worse than valve time... almost) they had that other game, a card game or something, that apparently doesn't exist anymore. theres normal balancing and hero releases and the occasional cg trailer thingy. i guess there was that map rework. does all that take 1000 (yes i looked it up) people?

like what are they doing?
 
H

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
IIRC most of their employees are in customer support.
 
F

FACE

Banned
Gentle Rodriguez said:
So when will demon get fined for his MoM Radiance Treant?
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If Jimmy played LoL he'd probably have to sell everything he owns to pay the fines.

iamblades said:
Also if I hear one more person talking about 'toxicity' I am going to lose my shit. If you are going to complain about something, at least make a genuine argument, none of this bland general bullshit.
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I think Riot employees get paid extra every time they use the words "toxic(or any variation)" "burden of knowledge" and "anti-fun"
 
O

Ocho

Member
iamblades said:
The bigger issue isn't popularity, but sustainability.

Dota and The International are highly sustainable in E-sports because it is both (highly) profitable for Valve, and they don't squash all other competitions throughout the rest of the year.

As soon as Riot decides the marketing payoff for running the LCS isn't worth the costs, the LoL pro scene will instantly dry up, regardless of how many people watch it because it isn't profitable.

Also if Dota 2 continues its 300% annual YoY playerbase growth, that popularity lead won't last much longer.
Click to expand...

Haly said:
Riot is not likely to abandon the LCS anytime soon, costs or no costs. It's a fundamental part of their marketing strategy and to stop supporting it entirely might as well be the same thing as stopping support of League. If it turns out to be a money sink, they might change up the format so it's easier to run, and invite more third-party tournaments, but they'd never close up shop on it entirely.
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Basically what Haly said. They even might take the Valve approach of crowd funding, you never know.

Call me biased, but I just don't see Dota2 ever reaching LoL's popularity. The accessibility of the game is much higher than Dota2 (gameplay and spec wise), regardless of either game's quality. From anecdotal experience, people scare too easy of Dota2's complex mechanics (a valid reason).

Edit: I guess China could close the gap. Not sure how LoL fares over there.
 
E

Edwardo

Member
For all my homies.

If any of you are interested it is the final week of the EU and NA LCS. This week is a super week so every team will be playing 4 matches as opposed to the usual 2 per week. A lot of teams are battling for playoff spots, so if you've been interested in watching some League of Legends professional play, now is the time!

Watch it here!

Join in our discussions here!

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