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[Edwardo]

One of the big differences in stealth abilities is League vs Dota is the length these abilities last. Other than Evelynn, who is always stealthed unless she is either attacking something or in proximity of enemy champions/vision, each champion's invis ability only lasts a few seconds.

Wukong's Decoy lasts 1.5 seconds and Shaco's Deceive lasts 3.5 seconds.

While in dota, Bounty Hunter's Shadow Walk lasts 15-30 seconds and Clinkz Skeleton Walk lasts 20-35 seconds. A big difference in how long the ability lasts and that each time you level up the skill, it gains duration.

 

[Razzer]

One of the big differences in stealth abilities is League vs Dota is the length these abilities last. Other than Evelynn, who is always stealthed unless she is either attacking something or in proximity of enemy champions/vision, each champion's invis ability only lasts a few seconds.

Wukong's Decoy lasts 1.5 seconds and Shaco's Deceive lasts 3.5 seconds.

While in dota, Bounty Hunter's Shadow Walk lasts 15-30 seconds and Clinkz Skeleton Walk lasts 20-35 seconds. A big difference in how long the ability lasts and that each time you level up the skill, it gains duration.

And then there's Riki whose perma-invis doesn't reveal when close to enemies and can cast spells and use items without revealing himself, and isn't revealed by taking damage so you always need detection.

...I hate that guy when I'm support.

 

[TharpDaddy]

I think another big reason why people are reluctant to change between games is because they're very invested in whatever one they play. In League i've played on and off since closed beta, so i have some exclusive skins, and have unlocked every champion and rune in the book. If i switch to Dota i lose all that along with the hard work i've put in to raise myself to Gold (though that's not that great). All my knowledge of the game i've gained over the years becomes defunct and it's annoying to go from feeling empowered and knowledgeable to completely confused and frustrated in a Dota match. These games take more investment than almost any other type, and it's a double edged sword.

 

[Edwardo]

And then there's Riki whose perma-invis doesn't reveal when close to enemies and can cast spells and use items without revealing himself, and isn't revealed by taking damage so you always need detection.

...I hate that guy when I'm support.

Yea can't forget about Riki

 

[Archie]

Know what would make Riki balanced?

An unchanneled Death Ward.

 

[McBradders]

Before my friend (LiQuid! here at GAF) dragged me into MOBAs I used to be extremely intimidated at the prospect of playing one because I am really bad at RTS games and the knowledge barrier to entry and the reputation players have (that I reinforce). I really wanted to play SMNC but my intimidation kept me away (and its monetization model tbh). I kinda regret that, in retrospect.

Yeah they went with the LoL model which was incredibly shortsighted given the so very few characters they had on offer, even at the end when they stopped supporting it, but it's more twitch based gameplay certainly allowed people to just jump in and play and kinda get what was going on way better than your standard MOBA.

Dem feels

RIP in peace Megabeth

 

[Tabby]

I think another big reason why people are reluctant to change between games is because they're very invested in whatever one they play. In League i've played on and off since closed beta, so i have some exclusive skins, and have unlocked every champion and rune in the book. If i switch to Dota i lose all that along with the hard work i've put in to raise myself to Gold (though that's not that great). All my knowledge of the game i've gained over the years becomes defunct and it's annoying to go from feeling empowered and knowledgeable to completely confused and frustrated in a Dota match. These games take more investment than almost any other type, and it's a double edged sword.

Which is exactly why most of these new MOBA games will fail.
They need to give a reason for existing players to jump ship, it's not like shooter games where it's easy to just change games every week.

Some games try not to change too much while putting their own unique spin on them in hopes that it's easier for other players to transition, but when you do that everyone complains that it's a LOL clone so I don't know.
You just can't win.

 

[Edwardo]

I think i'll start playing dota again and only play SA.

 

[BeesEight]

In the discussion about speed between games, is there a great variance in League's?

Everyone brings up how League feels faster because of the lack of turn rates but the one thing I noticed when I switched to Dota was the actual movement of champions felt a lot slower. I haven't played League in years now, however, so do champions still feel super ponderous when moving around the map? Have there been more movement abilities added?

There was the eponymous "gap closers" but that doesn't help with a jungler who is moving from camp to camp and it feels like they're treading molasses. In comparison, there's a number of base speed enhancing effects in Dota like haste, Surge, Shapeshift and the different boots can really speed up heroes like phase, travels and unbroken tranquils.

 

[Leezard]

In the discussion about speed between games, is there a great variance in Leagues?

Everyone brings up how League feels faster because of the lack of turn rates but the one thing I noticed when I switched to Dota was the actual movement of champions felt a lot slower. I haven't played League in years now, however, so do champions still feel super ponderous when moving around the map? Have there been more movement abilities added?

There was the eponymous "gap closers" but that doesn't help with a jungler who is moving from camp to camp and it feels like they're treading molasses. In comparison, there's a number of base speed enhancing effects in Dota like haste, Surge, Shapeshift and the different boots can really speed up heroes like phase, travels and unbroken tranquils.

Last season base movement speed for all champions was increased, and the bonus you get from boots is slightly lowered. Boots of Mobility has been in the game for a long time and has a movement speed buff when out of combat just like Dota's current Tranquils.

 

[Pureauthor]

Also of late Icefrog has been chipping away at early and midgame movespeed. All boots except Boots of Travels and Tranquil Boots have had their movespeed nerfed twice over the past year or so.

 

[iamblades]

As someone who hate animation priority in general, I really don't get the complaints about turn rates in dota.

Most heroes feel completely natural when turning around, and heroes like Batrider or shadowfiend seemingly turn as fast as any league hero I've played.

The turn rate controversy is hugely overstated, as any hero with a turn rate of more than .5 turns almost instantly(ie around .15 second for a full 180), and most heroes have more than a .5 turn rate.

The benefit of having a turn rate stat is that you can have debuffs like sticky napalm that reduce turn rate that make it basically impossible to turn and run if you get stacked. Which is really where i think the complaint from people new to dota is coming from, as most of the heroes don't turn substantially slower than league heroes under normal situations, and as far as game speed goes, any drawback there is more than made up for with the sheer abundance of movement enhancing abilities.

The cast and attack animation issue seems to be a more valid complaint about Dota, but the length of those cast timers are warranted because of how powerful certain abilities can be. Also it creates an additional layer of play, because you can start casting spells and stop them mid animation to bait out defensive abilities or throw off the opponents timing for dodging the spell.

Also of late Icefrog has been chipping away at early and midgame movespeed. All boots except Boots of Travels and Tranquil Boots have had their movespeed nerfed twice over the past year or so.

But SNY and Eul's movement speed bonuses have been increased and blink dagger is now mana free.

 

[BeesEight]

Last season base movement speed for all champions was increased, and the bonus you get from boots is slightly lowered. Boots of Mobility has been in the game for a long time and has a movement speed buff when out of combat just like Dota's current Tranquils.

Oh nice! That slow movement was such a drag since you always have to go back to fountain to buy items. That's great they've made everyone move faster.

Also of late Icefrog has been chipping away at early and midgame movespeed. All boots except Boots of Travels and Tranquil Boots have had their movespeed nerfed twice over the past year or so.

By five. :\

(Well, phase, power and arcane got ten in total for the trade off of Tranquils getting +35 while broken and almost the speed of Travels when whole. I think it's less chipping away at early game movespeed and more trying to make Tranquils actual worthwhile boots without being silly for safe farming carries.)

 

[manfestival]

As a fan of dota and lol. There are things both games do better than the other. Ultimately the sense of accomplishment (FROM WINNING! lol) that I get from both titles is what keeps me playing game after game. LoL used to have turn speed back in the day. Then one day they removed it but I think it fits the meta that they are going for better and personally I think it makes dota 2 feel sluggish as a result of that. Also, I hate how huge the HUD is for dota 2. Granted the custom HUDS are really cool (I love you mana pool HUD) but it got in the way so many times when trying to learn dota again. I have become accustomed to it but I still think its cumbersome. Also, build SNY on everyone. Best strat, drink vodka win dotka.

I am just sharing my thoughts. Not trying to spark a fire of a lol vs dota 2 war since it seems we are on the brink.

 

[Leezard]

Oh nice! That slow movement was such a drag since you always have to go back to fountain to buy items. That's great they've made everyone move faster.

Indeed, the early game have been improved thanks to it. Just remember that in League, you never have to walk to base. You can press 'b' to recall, an 8 second channel (that breaks on damage) that teleports you back to base once the channel is complete. You still have to walk back to the lane though, unless you have the teleport summoner spell.

 

[Razzer]

As a fan of dota and lol. There are things both games do better than the other. Ultimately the sense of accomplishment (FROM WINNING! lol) that I get from both titles is what keeps me playing game after game. LoL used to have turn speed back in the day. Then one day they removed it but I think it fits the meta that they are going for better and personally I think it makes dota 2 feel sluggish as a result of that. Also, I hate how huge the HUD is for dota 2. Granted the custom HUDS are really cool (I love you mana pool HUD) but it got in the way so many times when trying to learn dota again. I have become accustomed to it but I still think its cumbersome. Also, build SNY on everyone. Best strat, drink vodka win dotka.

I am just sharing my thoughts. Not trying to spark a fire of a lol vs dota 2 war since it seems we are on the brink.

It always appears to be on the brink, but Boken Steve etc are very tongue-in-cheek. I'm pretty sure this thread has avoided most of the genuine fanboy warriors.

 

[perryfarrell]

Nicely written introduction. Nice flowchart showing the different relations between games.

Small nitpick: the original Dota is still bigger than League if you look at world-wide player numbers. Last time I checked, at least. Of course, if you have an up-to-date PC there's little reason to play the original dota still.

I'd recommend newcomers to try Dota 2 over League, mainly because of lack of micro-transactions in Dota 2. You get the whole game, with all heroes and modes and bonuses, for free.

 

[Schweinehund]

Homeguard is my favorite boot upgrade in league, it cuts down on the travel time significantly. Reinstalling league today so I can play with friends, has Darius had his rework yet?

 

[manfestival]

Nicely written introduction. Nice flowchart showing the different relations between games.

Small nitpick: the original Dota is still bigger than League if you look at world-wide player numbers. Last time I checked, at least. Of course, if you have an up-to-date PC there's little reason to play the original dota still.

I'd recommend newcomers to try Dota 2 over League, mainly because of lack of micro-transactions in Dota 2. You get the whole game, with all heroes and modes and bonuses, for free.

keys arent free bro, how am I supposed to handle by insatiable desire to open up chests in hopes of getting one random possible item? lol...

but I think the community market is the real winner of dota 2s ecosystem. You can find a good rare and sell it. Then use that money to buy more cool dota gear and etc.

 

[shiftplusone]

just to bring up this old arguing point

got back in to Infinite Crisis yesterday since everyone was unlocked for PAX

Made me realize i really fucking hate the free rotation and cycling of dudes

saw a lot of atomic wonder woman but had 5 or 6 games where at least 7-8 characters were all different

Playing a 5v5 game where 8+ players all only have free characters is the worst. "oh we have the flash/ivy/WW/nightmare batman and so do they"

 

[Schweinehund]

just to bring up this old arguing point

got back in to Infinite Crisis yesterday since everyone was unlocked for PAX

Made me realize i really fucking hate the free rotation and cycling of dudes

saw a lot of atomic wonder woman but had 5 or 6 games where at least 7-8 characters were all different

Playing a 5v5 game where 8+ players all only have free characters is the worst. "oh we have the flash/ivy/WW/nightmare batman and so do they"

Yes the Dota 2/Hon system is nice, but I don't blame upstarts that have rotating hero system, you simply can't pull the same weight valve can and open up a workshop. Hon's system is more of a response to losing playerbase due to the paywall. League has the capital now, they could setup an alternative system but they're most likely interested in profits since their acquisition by Tencent (dem 6300 ip champions ever since the acquisition). Tecncent would probably rather play it safe than spend money on implementing an alternative method. I would be interested in a $40-60 unlock all champions for life.

 

[SteveWinwood]

Small nitpick: the original Dota is still bigger than League if you look at world-wide player numbers. Last time I checked, at least. Of course, if you have an up-to-date PC there's little reason to play the original dota still.

Yeah I know. It's just not terribly relevant unless you like to play number games (which I do I guess) as it's all computer cafes running toasters in the middle of nowhere china.

From almost two years ago: http://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/10i3sx/so_you_thought_dota2_was_getting_large/

1. (a) Dota 1 Client: 5 billion. (1 year)

2. League of Legends: 1 billion. (lifetime)

3. Dota 2: 43 million.

I did technically say that "from the data we have"

DotA is strong in China.

 

[Edwardo]

Is there still development for dota 1?

 

[Archie]

LoL took over China. Tencent's marketing muscle

Spoiler

and anti Dota FUD

and Valve time were the main factors.

It also doesn't help that Valve got the Chinese equivalent of Atlus to publish the game over there.

 

[Sibylus]

some more comics (just posting 1 sample image):
riven meets rylai
http://abload.de/img/crossover_when_riven_6kx83.jpg
source: http://phsueh.deviantart.com/art/Crossover-When-Riven-meets-Rylai-Part-5-426106664
dire circumstances
http://abload.de/img/ubl3xie4yay3.jpg
http://fruitscs.com/9.html

Kinda annoyed at this Davion whitewash. Cartoonerman, y u do this.

 

[Schweinehund]

Is there still development for dota 1?

Yeah icefraud updates it with every dota 2 patch. Its getting harder though because the scripting language WC3Editor uses is limited. I'm hoping he drops support for it so it can reduce his workload and allow for more interesting mechanics in dota 2.

Lately he's been updating dota 2 before dota, last year it was always dota 1 would recieve the patch a week or two in advance.

 

[SteveWinwood]

Is there still development for dota 1?

Yep. It's kept at parity with dota 2.

Used to be that it would be patched and then we'd wait a week for it to be ported over into the Dota 2 client. But now it looks like it comes to Dota 2 first and then gets released in Dota 1 in a somewhat buggy state as icefrog has started to do stuff outside the wc3 engine (bloodseeker can now go over the movement cap for example).

It's still well supported with bug fixes for weeks after. And icefrog has said he'll keep updating dota 1.

 

[Edwardo]

Yeah icefraud updates it with every dota 2 patch. Its getting harder though because the scripting language WC3Editor uses is limited. I'm hoping he drops support for it so it can reduce his workload and allow for more interesting mechanics in dota 2.

Lately he's been updating dota 2 before dota, last year it was always dota 1 would recieve the patch a week or two in advance.

Yep. It's kept at parity with dota 2.

Used to be that it would be patched and then we'd wait a week for it to be ported over into the Dota 2 client. But now it looks like it comes to Dota 2 first and then gets released in Dota 1 in a somewhat buggy state as icefrog has started to do stuff outside the wc3 engine (bloodseeker can now go over the movement cap for example).

It's still well supported with bug fixes for weeks after. And icefrog has said he'll keep updating dota 1.

Oh wow that's pretty cool. I didn't know he was doing both.

 

[SteveWinwood]

LoL took over China. Tencent's marketing muscle

Spoiler

and anti Dota FUD

and Valve time were the main factors.

It also doesn't help that Valve got the Chinese equivalent of Atlus to publish the game over there.

Only nerdy kids like perfect worlds releases?

 

[Leezard]

Homeguard is my favorite boot upgrade in league, it cuts down on the travel time significantly. Reinstalling league today so I can play with friends, has Darius had his rework yet?

Nay, Darius is still the same.

 

[Archie]

Maybe!

I was trying to articulate that Tencent is like the Chinese equivalent of EA and Perfect World is a much smaller company.

My inner Fatlus is showing.

 

[Razzer]

Does anyone in Riot have that same legendary reputation with the League community, or do you mostly think of them as the whole company?

 

[Granadier]

Does anyone in Riot have that same legendary reputation with the League community, or do you mostly think of them as the whole company?

Spoiler

Pendragon

 

[SteveWinwood]

Does anyone in Riot have that same legendary reputation with the League community, or do you mostly think of them as the whole company?

Pendragon!

 

[Archie]

Does anyone in Riot have that same legendary reputation with the League community, or do you mostly think of them as the whole company?

Pendragon and Morello.

 

[Razzer]

I meant in a good way

 

[kasane]

I still remember when pendragon put up ads for lol.

Douchey move

I meant in a good way

Maybe guinsoo then since he had a hand in dota

 

[Edwardo]

Pendragon and Morello.

Heroes among us

 

[Granadier]

Pendragon and Morello.

.

 

[SteveWinwood]

I still remember when pendragon put up ads for lol.

Douchey move


Maybe guinsoo then since he had a hand in dota

Guinsoo is back at riot redesigning some champ.

Everyone thought he left for a while there.

 

[Sigismundo]

My inner Fatlus is showing.

So it's entirely your fault PAL doesn't have SMT4, then?

 

[kasane]

Guinsoo is back at riot redesigning some champ.

Everyone thought he left for a while there.

Why did he leave? Isnt he the lead dev.

 

[Leezard]

Pendragon mostly has a reputation among Dota players though, League players don't care about him.

Morello is the well known guy, though not for that comment that was posted. He is known more for his dislike of dedicated healers (which he was completely right to do) and nerfing Irelia. Morello's design has shaped much of League.

You don't see a single person hogging all the positive spotlight though.

Phreak is known as a fun goofy guy.

 

[SteveWinwood]

Why did he leave? Isnt he the lead dev.

I dunno, he went and backpacked Europe for a year or something.

These are kids in their early 20s they have no clue what the fuck they wanna do with their life.

 

[Granadier]

I dunno, he went a backpacked Europe for a year or something.

These are kids in their early 20s they have no clue what the fuck they wanna do with their life.

Yet they already have more money then the pope and believe they are gods.

Spoiler

i kid

 

[Razzer]

Pendragon mostly has a reputation among Dota players though, League players don't care about him.

Morello is the well known guy, though more for his hatred for dedicated healers (which he was completely right to do) and nerfing Irelia.

You don't see a single person hogging all the positive spotlight though.

So as you are a League player you could give me a proper answer? There must be someone who has a reputation for being especially good at balancing.

 

[Leezard]

So as you are a League player you could give me a proper answer? There must be someone who has a reputation for being especially good at balancing.

Despite Morello being known for nerfing stuff, his design decisions are great and have moved League to a much better place. He is not the one doing the balance though, the live balance team does the direct balancing and none of them are any "faces" for the company, so to speak. From what I gather, Morello is the face of the design/balance team, he is the one that takes all the blame when people don't like some change, and he makes some more high-level design decisions. It's not on the same level of Icefrog being the single guy balancing Dota though, it's way more of a team effort there.

 

[Pureauthor]

So as you are a League player you could give me a proper answer? There must be someone who has a reputation for being especially good at balancing.

I don't think LoL has a single dev who people attribute all the balance changes to. People equate Dota 2 balance with Icefrog regardless of what his testers/suggestion-givers/Valve contribute. From what I see balance in LoL is considered a departmental/team effort.

 

[zkylon]

Pendragon mostly has a reputation among Dota players though, League players don't care about him.

yea

who's that dude

is he a friend of jatt's

 

[Pureauthor]

yea

who's that dude

is he a friend of jatt's

Are you joking or do you really want to know?