Introduction to MOBAs
- Thread starter SteveWinwood
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SteveWinwood
Member
Between some people it looks like.
I also don't know why sven of all heroes started it lol.
Dreams-Visions
Member
No, not even close. Syndra, Heimer, Malzahar and Yorick are indeed the closest League has to it. But no, it's not like what Chen, Visage, Enchantress, Nature's Prophet, Naga Siren, Lone Druid and Phantom Lancer bring to Dota. Not in the slightest.
With most of the LoL characters that have "helpers", they can't be directly controlled in any meaningful way. They can't be used explicitly to tank anything (like towers) or check bushes, or be sent to another lane to farm on your behalf or keep watch. If you click on them, they don't have their own sets of abilities to micro. These are the benefits and burdens they offer. They add a level of complexity and challenge to the Dota beyond the simple autoattack damage or fodder for skillshots that they give to LoL champs.
That's all iamblades ever brings to threads like this sooner or later.
The trick to understanding Sven and his damage output is understanding cleave. If a group of League champs grouped up close enough to all be hit by Sven's cleave (I can't think of a reason or a champion that groups people into a small area like Darkseer's vacuum, so it doesn't seem realistic), he could 1-shot a but the tankiest of tanks. But that's true of both games. Sven isn't 1-shotting a Doom with a Heart and an AC. In League he wouldn't 1-shot a Renek with an Omen, Sunfire, and Warmog's either. But anyone with average armor and less than 2k hp would be in trouble. AP carry, the supports, the jungler and the ADC could get victimized.
TharpDaddy
Member
I don't think so, we're having a discussion on what would happen with a champion in a game. No negativity! It's interesting to discuss in depth mechanics and potentials.
Imperfected
Member
Yeah, jungling in League is first and foremost about being able to handle fighting jungle camps unassisted from Lv1. (I know that sounds obvious, but a lot of champions really just cannot do this and therefore are automatically disqualified.) Beyond that, there's different theories and preferences as to what makes the best jungler, but Ganking and Objective Control are what most people gravitate towards.
Turin Turambar
Member
Well, somebody play a few hours in the beta. 74 millions, in fact.
Though obviously much less than Dota / LoL.
Here, have a video that Dignitas just released
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svTR34N4MU0
TharpDaddy
Member
How does microing work in Dota? Do you have to switch your unit selection to them in order to control them (like just selecting a different unit) or can you map them to hotkeys? I can't recall ever playing a hero in Dota that i was in control of multiple units.
Pretty much. Few things you look for in LoL junglers:
1. Sustain, can you jungle without dying. Most important. With the introduction of machette/spirit items this is less of a worry nowadays.
2. Speed in clearing. People with AoE damage skills that don't run OOM quickly usually excel at this.
3. Ganking potential. You look for people with stuns, slows, gap closers, and people with invis.
4. Dueling potential. You might invade their jungle, they might invade yours. Being able to go toe-to-toe with the enemy jungler is favorable.
It's a good thought experiment and helps people understand the differences between each game.
actually they can
people routinely use annie's tibbers to tank turrets and dragon/baron, as well as zyra plants, elise spiders and such
same as checking brushes and keeping vision of an area, or zoning people
you can even juke people with lebonk clone if you're good at it.
it's also not uncommon to use tibbers to block skillshots, or place heimer turrets and zyra plants to like block a blitz hook
they even give out gold when killed so it's a good idea to deny the kills by moving like tibbers somewhere else to die so you're not giving enemies a cannon minion worht of gold for lasthitting him
it's very meaningful, you can do pretty much everything you've listed
SteveWinwood
Member
Without the crit it's still 200 damage per hit, so with the stun you need an extra hit or another nuke from the other person in the lane if you don't get a crit. Still should result in a guaranteed kill every time he uses god's strength(or you run them off the lane and take a free tower).
And remember this is basically sven's weakest point of the game, before the scaling kicks in.
^^ as someone who is fairly shit at these games half my fun is mechanics theorycrafting.
TharpDaddy
Member
I recall i used to play the guy with the pet bear in the original Dota, i would just select both he and the bear and have them attack together. My micro skills were... lacking. I assume learning to keep track of all the different units is one of the hardest learning curves in Dota.
Lone druid...man I always hated playing him. Lich too.. man I despised playing lich. Hell I hated most int characters....until seer was released.
SteveWinwood
Member
It depends on your previous experience. I know a guy who played a lot of starcraft and he naturally took to meepo, chen, brewmaster, and lone druid very quickly. It can be hard for some people if you're used to Diablo and lol or something though.
What's wrong with lich :O
Dreams-Visions
Member
These are not remotely the same, my friend. Spend any time with Dota2 and you'll see why.
Tibbers lasts all of about 4 tower hits and lasts only a handful of seconds. Zyra plants are turrets. They aren't going to move anywhere or do anything beyond autotattack at their spawned location. They're like Shadow Shaman Snakes. Elise Spiders can't be individually micro'd unless it's just something I never noticed before. You simply reposition Elise and the neutrals eventually just aggro to the attacking spiderlings so she can go back in and attack.
Install Dota2 and try Visage, Nature's Prophet, Phantom Lancer, Naga Siren, Doom, Meepo, Brewmaster, Enchantress or Lone Druid. Then try Shadow Shaman and Witch Doctor (whom are similar to the interactions you're pointing out with their Ultimates) and report your findings back. They are not similar in the slightest, and you'll see why. You can literally have those heroes summoned creatures on the other side of the map doing something helpful. It's a black and white difference.
Most boring character in the game.
Granted, when I started out with HoN, I only played its Lich equivalent. I can't stand to even look at that hero any more.
Boring boring boring. Again I was never a fan of int character, mostly because of the transition to support at late game.
Not to mention my ult would always have the worst luck in it's bounces.
TharpDaddy
Member
I loved Lone Druid just because i'd sit in the jungle for a while and farm until i became a monster. Also, something that always really bothers me in Dota: how do i switch focus back to my hero or focus the camera on him? I'm used to hitting space in league, but in Dota it seems to bring me to a random spot on the map. I'm definitely going to give Dota another shot in the future, though, i want to wreck face on bearman again.
Double tap a hot key to focus the camera on that unit..
Also worth noting that you can set up hot keys to map locations as well. This is handing for checking rune spots really fast at the 2 minute mark. Though it require some console arcanery and I've been to lazy to mess with it. I normally play a side lane instead of mid anyway.
SteveWinwood
Member
Just cause people don't play him as the carry he's supposed to be.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/412378076
http://dotabuff.com/matches/372945848
TheFightingFish
Member
's a big reason of why I started with Smite (which I really love), I've always been horrible with splitting my attention in RTS games, really don't like the genre at all. Third person controls are just easier for me to grasp and I'd never be able to handle multi unit micro.
TharpDaddy
Member
I've tried Smite and while i had decent fun while playing it, but it never really grips me and makes me want to log on again. I think i prefer the more top down view for moba games. I never could get into MNC and SMNC when i tried them.
not gonna bother actually trying this (already have doto installed but eh) but yea, different games, league doesn't have managing multiple dudes to that depth
but there's meaningful use of summons, specially like tibbers and morde ghosts. as elise you can't directly control spiderlings but you turn into spider form to use your spiderlings to block an incoming skillshot.
shit like that
like i've won games cos i used tibbers correctly
tibbers matters
don't turn your back on tibbers
lol
Comparing Leeg unit micro to DOTA2 unit micro is laughable.
RTZ's Naga.
The Puppey block at TI2.
Schweinehund
Member
Smite is quite healthy. No need to be on top to do well.
Besides Garen, I really like Ryze, Darius, Jax, Heimerdinger, Kog'maw, Veigar, and Vlad.
Shadow Shaman and Venomancer are about the closet we get to Heimerdinger in dota, I'd like to see someone with 2-3 different turrets that is micro heavy in dota. The only aspect I dislike about heimer is how towers target his turrets first over creeps, a simple change would make him so much more viable (no idea if he's viable now, last time I heard him being viable is when he could have like 5-6 turrets out).
Kog'maw is just a fun carry to play, his ult makes an interesting addition to the right click playstyle. He feels like the real sniper in the game, Caitlyn is a bit disappointing after having played sniper in dota.
Veigar and Ryze are pretty much how I imagine caster carries. Vlad is somewhat like this but he's more of a supplemental role than a pure carry.
Garen is like a beefier version of juggernaut who's spin scales into late game and Darius's dunking is addicting.
Xin Zhao would probably break dota if he were ported over, Akali would be a PITA if her cloud was true stealth. Too many dota heroes would break league. Prophet and Zeus are probably two alone that already do their job better than their counterparts in league (TF & Karthus). If I could choose one hero to wreck havoc in league for a week it would probably be Ursa.
Lone Druid would be pretty awesome in league, league really is lacking in the micro department. It's one thing that drew me away from league when dota 2 came out.
Besides Garen, I really like Ryze, Darius, Jax, Heimerdinger, Kog'maw, Veigar, and Vlad.
Shadow Shaman and Venomancer are about the closet we get to Heimerdinger in dota, I'd like to see someone with 2-3 different turrets that is micro heavy in dota. The only aspect I dislike about heimer is how towers target his turrets first over creeps, a simple change would make him so much more viable (no idea if he's viable now, last time I heard him being viable is when he could have like 5-6 turrets out).
Kog'maw is just a fun carry to play, his ult makes an interesting addition to the right click playstyle. He feels like the real sniper in the game, Caitlyn is a bit disappointing after having played sniper in dota.
Veigar and Ryze are pretty much how I imagine caster carries. Vlad is somewhat like this but he's more of a supplemental role than a pure carry.
Garen is like a beefier version of juggernaut who's spin scales into late game and Darius's dunking is addicting.
Xin Zhao would probably break dota if he were ported over, Akali would be a PITA if her cloud was true stealth. Too many dota heroes would break league. Prophet and Zeus are probably two alone that already do their job better than their counterparts in league (TF & Karthus). If I could choose one hero to wreck havoc in league for a week it would probably be Ursa.
Lone Druid would be pretty awesome in league, league really is lacking in the micro department. It's one thing that drew me away from league when dota 2 came out.
TharpDaddy
Member
Tibbers hits hard. Mid Annie is rare, but those buffs to her carry role made her into an even more terrifying burst mage at level 6. She's also insane in team fights if Tibbers is just chilling in your team.
Nothing irks me more than design tyrants. Like Austrian Economists, philosophical purity is more important than, y'know, being humble and following shit that's fun and works... even if one finds it irksome from the standpoint of one's mental spreadsheet of IMMUTABLE DESIGN LAWS.
Glarin' at you, David Kim.
Dreams-Visions
Member
Yes, it is. Particularly because unlike say...Starcraft (which I assume all of us have some amount of background in), there is a higher cost to losing your main unit in Dota2. As such, people are more prone to misclicks and other mishaps that come from the pressure of the moment. But some micro-based characters in dota are less punishing of poor micro skills than others. Visage, Lycanthorpe and Nature's Prophet are good examples. Their summoned units aren't critical to the hero's function in team fights (though they are helpful). That is, you don't need to micro their shit (but if you can secure more kills). WIth Lycan and Visage in particular, you can send them all to attack whatever your target is if you like and be fine.
If you're kinda iffy on micro (heroes that won't cost you a game if you can't micro well): Lycan, Visage, Nature's Prophet, Doom, Enchantress, Brewmaster, Broodmother
If you're comfortable with micro: Lone Druid, Chen, Meepo
Imperfected
Member
Turn your radiance off when you're trying to hide. Makes sense!
Not Visage, hah. Visage is one of the most micro intensive heroes in the game. He might have a low mciro floor but that's just when you count suboptimal play. His micro ceiling is as high as Chen's and Lone Druid's, maybe higher because his familiars have flying pathing, and so they can accomplish a lot of plays most other summons can't, including scouting trees and circling behind for ganks.
There's a new item for junglers that mimics ursa sorta (magic on hit, attack speed, life on hit, scales the more jungle creatures/champ kills you get) that's causing quite a bit of uproar right now. Imagining it on ursa is terrifying.
I always liked Jax, which is I guess why faceless void is my favorite hero in dota.
I dig the beefy melee carries with maces. Or in Jax's case a big goofy lightpole thing.
You just don't like INT heroes? Not all of them have to transition to support / be played as a support. 2 of my favorite INT heroes--Queen of Pain and Outworld Devourer--pretty much never do that. (Outworld Devourer can build a Mekanism I guess...)
Tangent: of all the awful people I've played Dota with the one I hate the most was one who let the game auto-pick a hero for him who happened to be an INT hero and they shat the bed hard and excused themselves by saying, "I don't play INT heroes." Hon you're gonna need to be able to play ~33% of the hero pool unless you're Sing Sing or something.
I feel like you underrate the importance if Visage's micro. Well placed stuns with those things can do wonders in a fight, plus they give a decent bounty if killed.
but where's ur mekanism?
TharpDaddy
Member
Towers actually used to just ignore Heimer's turrets, but it made him such an insane pusher that they had to change it. If the enemy mid left their lane for a minute, he'd be knocking on your nexus. He's a lot more viable since his recent rework, he's been played in the LCS a couple times.
Ahh, i see. I'll definitely try out one of the less micro heavy people then. Thanks for the suggestions!
never said it's the same, don't put words in my mouth
but he listed like 5 things that you couldn't do in league that just wasn't true and he said summons weren't meaningful which again isn't true
Schweinehund
Member
Yeah, I dislike the idea of playing meepo and stuff like that. But even if it were just something like lone druid in league that would be awesome. 2 Units isn't that burdensome, and both of them are tanky as hell.
I wonder if riot has long term plans for league, like porting to a new engine in the next few years. League is great now because it runs on lower specs, but dat adobe air client has to go.
I wonder if riot has long term plans for league, like porting to a new engine in the next few years. League is great now because it runs on lower specs, but dat adobe air client has to go.
Obsidian Destroyer was one of the few ints I liked and liked a lot. I always hated Queen of Pain. Only other ints I liked was Seer and Invoker.
Oh and I have a soft spot for Enchantress.
Imperfected
Member
The main meaningful summon in League is Shaco's Hallucination.
But only scumbags play Shaco.
But only scumbags play Shaco.
Same to you, I said the comparison is laughable, because they are so widely different animals.
Because you were underestimating the degree of control he was hinting at. I'm sure there are all kinds of plays summons in League can make, but they are about as substantial as Emerald Warden's hawk, and not true multi-unit control like in DOTA2.
He's a ton of fun, especially if your opponents set you up to stomp with some thoughtless picks.
Also has S-tier so bad it's funny grimdark responses, which I always appreciate.
Ooo dat Naga. The best rat.
Dreams-Visions
Member
I think he's just inexperienced in Dota. There's no other reason for it to even be a point of "debate" anymore than the sky being blue. Tibbers in Dota is basically the Lone Druid Bear with a Radiance. Sort of.
...except in Dota, the bear lasts all game long (until the enemy kills it), can be equipped with items, and can be sent to jungle for you or push a lane across the map then recalled back to you at any time.
But yes, if Annie had access to Tibbers from level 1 and if he stayed alive until the enemy killed him, League would have a micro-based character like Dota. But it doesn't, nor does it have anything remotely similar in functionality. Not yet, anyway. Hopefully it does one day because it really opens up play and ways to outplay opponents.
man. I remember this one game...
http://dotabuff.com/matches/140855549
...the final ult was...let's just say I did a lot of damage.
Schweinehund
Member
That must have been what caused the mega nerf to him because he was pretty crazy when I started out. I think mordekaiser was just ported in and ryze was like 3 shotting people by maxing the bouncing ball first.
Probably one of the best kill lines in dota
Strength heroes are best heroes in dota 2 for beginners I think. All that extra health makes it pretty hard to lose team fights or die a lot, especially when not a lot of items are involved.
Visage and Jakiro are about the closest thing you can get to a tanky int hero, about the only two I actually like for int supports. Ogre is too but he's melee.
Just compare tibbers tanking a few turret shots, to naga farming multiple jungle camps at once with radiance, or Natures prophet blocking multiple jungle camps with his treants, Visage assisting in a gank with familiars while he is across map, Morphling replicate. shenanigans. To even try to compare them is almost too funny.
i was just replying to what i was told, the only reason i'm underestimating is that i was given a shitty example. like most of what he said can be done by tibbers, with the big exception of having his own set of abilities, which is not a small thing but u know i wasn't really given an example of what these abilities are either.
like seriously if you tell me to install doto and play half a dozen doto heroes, like what do you expect
One of the things I disliked most about League was the prohibitions on summons. Coming from an RTS/Dota background, it felt like I was fighting against the engine to get my summons to do what I want. Now, sometimes, subverting the developer's intentions leads to great game mechanics (Smash's Ice Climbers), but when I see Zilean talking about all this 'burden of knowledge' and 'reliability' crap, then look at how summons behave vs. how players actually want them to behave, well it's a kind of hypocrisy I find offputting.
DOTA2 has many many weird behaviors and interactions that can stump a novice player, but never let it be said that the game actively sabotaged you from playing optimally, especially with all the mechanics customization that now exist.
DOTA2 has many many weird behaviors and interactions that can stump a novice player, but never let it be said that the game actively sabotaged you from playing optimally, especially with all the mechanics customization that now exist.
Imperfected
Member
You can manually control Shaco's Hallucination, Annie's Tibbers, Mordekaiser's Children of the Grave ghost, and (if I remember right) Yorick's Omen of Death Ghoul. You can also control LeBlanc's Mirror Image, but it's a non-damaging clone like ye olde Blademaster ones, so it's not as important.
These units can be individually ordered to move to areas or attack targets while the respective champion is moving elsewhere or doing something else. They control the same as the respective champion (except in Tibbers' case because there is no Tibbers champions, but he controls the same as a melee champion would, anyway).
The only one of these that's ever used as a "fire and forget" type of spell is Omen of Death, and that's just because the ghoul generated by it usually isn't the actual reason you're casting the spell. Playing any of the other champions does in fact rely on being able to control their summoned unit effectively, which is probably why most people don't actually play Shaco or Morde.