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Irish court rules life support for brain-dead pregnant mother can be ended

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Dram

Member
http://news.yahoo.com/irish-court-end-life-support-pregnant-woman-141015383.html
A brain-dead pregnant woman was taken off life support Friday after a court ruled that her 18-week-old fetus was doomed to die — a case that exposed fear and confusion among doctors over how to apply Ireland's strict ban on abortion in an age of medical innovation.

The three-judge Dublin High Court said that all artificial support for the woman should end more than three weeks after she was declared clinically dead. Her relatives gathered at a hospital in the Irish Midlands to bid farewell to the unidentified woman, who was in her late 20s and had two young children.

In their 29-page ruling, the judges accepted testimony from seven doctors who said the fetus couldn't survive for the extra two months of development needed to be delivered safely. The doctors detailed how the woman's body was becoming a lethal environment rife with infections, fungal growths, fever and high blood pressure.

The nation's Supreme Court was put on standby for an appeal, given the constitutional questions at stake. But lawyers representing the rights of the woman and of the fetus said they accepted the ruling from the country's second-highest court.

Ireland has the strictest abortion ban in Europe, a reflection of the country's heavily Roman Catholic population. But Dublin's archbishop had suggested before the decision came down that he would have no objection to removing life support.

The woman suffered irreversible brain death on Dec. 3, four days after sustaining a severe head injury in a fall. She had already been hospitalized after doctors found a cyst in her brain.

Doctors refused family pleas to turn off a half-dozen machines that regulated oxygen, blood flow, nutrition and waste collection, citing fears they could be sued for negligence or even face murder charges if they cut life-sustaining support for the fetus.


One doctor testified that he and two colleagues couldn't agree on how Ireland's constitutional ban on abortion should be applied, given the lack of explicit laws or guidelines for such cases.


Other doctors described the woman as a corpse unrecognizable from the photo by her bedside. Another noted that the body was being pumped with drugs never authorized for use on a pregnant woman and described what they were doing as experimental and, if it persisted, grotesque.

The Catholic Church questioned why secular authorities had not established clear guidelines for cases where a woman dies and doctors determine that the fetus can't survive on its own.

The judges did leave open the possibility that future cases might be handled differently if the fetus was significantly closer to delivery age, even if its deteriorating environment meant a higher risk of abnormalities.

They said Ireland's ban on abortion commits authorities to defend equally the right to life of the mother and unborn child. Because the mother is already dead in such cases, the judges found, the rights of the living fetus "must prevail over the feelings of grief and respect for a mother who is no longer living."

Irish doctors have appealed for decades for clearer guidelines on when they may terminate a pregnancy. Irish law permits this only when deemed necessary to save the woman's life. Parliament passed the law last year after a 31-year-old woman, suffering a protracted miscarriage, was refused an abortion and died of blood poisoning.

An estimated 4,000 Irishwomen travel each year for abortions in neighboring England, where the practice was legalized in 1967
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Death of Savita Halappanavar
Wiki article dealing with the death of the 31 year old mentioned in the article
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Savita_Halappanavar
 

maxcriden

Member
My goodness, that is so sad. I had no idea abortion was illegal in Ireland. It seems this will be the best decision in a really unfortunate circumstance.
 

cameron

Member
Other doctors described the woman as a corpse unrecognizable from the photo by her bedside. Another noted that the body was being pumped with drugs never authorized for use on a pregnant woman and described what they were doing as experimental and, if it persisted, grotesque.

...

Fix your shit, Ireland.
 

Anteo

Member
Parliament passed the law last year after a 31-year-old woman, suffering a protracted miscarriage, was refused an abortion and died of blood poisoning.

I.. wow..
I mean, they knew right? They knew she was gonna die..
 
Irish doctors have appealed for decades for clearer guidelines on when they may terminate a pregnancy. Irish law permits this only when deemed necessary to save the woman's life. Parliament passed the law last year after a 31-year-old woman, suffering a protracted miscarriage, was refused an abortion and died of blood poisoning.

WTF? Last year? As in 2013?

Where is the EU on this? You guys forced the end of the death penalty but can't force a state to realize a women's right to choose?
 

Faustus

Banned
As a born and breed citizen here this is a little bit of insight for others into what kind of a piss hole country this place is to live in. News like this isn't surprising when there are other equally insane cases happening every year in different sectors other than healthcare.
 

Derwind

Member
a 31-year-old woman, suffering a protracted miscarriage, was refused an abortion and died of blood poisoning.

Cut & Paste this into a 17th century medical journal and it wouldn't look out of place at all.
 
Didn't another case like this happen in Texas or someplace recently? Anyone know what was the outcome on it? Incredible that this horrible shit can still go on in first world countries.
 

cameron

Member
Didn't another case like this happen in Texas or someplace recently? Anyone know what was the outcome on it? Incredible that this horrible shit can still go on in first world countries.

Marlise Munoz. She was eventually taken off life support. It was a situation where the interpretation of the law or the law not being clear triumphed over compassion and human decency.
 
Forcing a dead woman's body to remain on life support because you don't want to "abort" the fetus is fucking ghoulish.

Agreed. But I think a living will is crucial for scenarios like this.

For example my wife always said if something like that happened to her and the baby *could* survive to keep her plugged up until she delivers, then let her go.
 
Ireland (which is Catholic as opposed to Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK) has always had been Pro-Life law-wise.

Abortion is illegal there so naturally you get laws where the rights of the unborn trump that of the (brain dead) mother.

Also in the UK there is no pro-choice laws set in "stone" like in Roe. They can change the law anytime they choose without having to overcome an obstacle similar to Roe.

Marlise Munoz. She was eventually taken off life support. It was a situation where the interpretation of the law or the law not being clear triumphed over compassion and human decency.

From the article: "Whether the Munoz case leads Texas to change the law remains unclear."

So nothings changed. The powers that be will just stay quiet and hope nothing changes law wise and no precedents are set.
 
Also:

An estimated 4,000 Irishwomen travel each year for abortions in neighboring England, where the practice was legalized in 1967.

Somebody speaks with a forked tongue because if the fetus had the same equal rights as the mother then transportation across state line to "murder" it would be legally prohibited - but the ISC recognizes the pragmatic reality of the "right to life" useless words.

"Anyone aiding or procuring an abortion will be liable for up to 12 years' imprisonment. The right to information and freedom to travel for an abortion are restated in the Bill."

?!?

Just exemplifies that rich women will always have the option to travel for an abortion despite restrictive abortion legislation in their countries. Like to note though that in South American countries like Brazil, unlike in Irleand, they punish women for having abortion overseas afaik so it's not like Ireland isn't being hypocritical, so much for these forked tongue Christians and general fallacy of "right to life".
 
Even if its a few hours, a few days, a few weeks? Wheres the cut off? She dies and the end for the baby inside too?

The wishes of the deceased mother (as any abortion) and family should trump that of the state.

None of the examples had a few hours or days before delivery date or was near viability*

*the point a woman cannot have an elective abortion.
 

markot

Banned
The wishes of the deceased mother (as any abortion) and family should trump that of the state.

None of the examples had a few hours or days before delivery date or was near viability*

*the point a woman cannot have an elective abortion.

Most women, and men, do not have foresight to leave their own living will, these cases generally involve accidents or sudden and quick diseases.

Who is to say? Who has more influence? The husband? What if theyre not married? What if theyre seperated? What if he is out of the picture? The family? which family?

Lets not pretend that the state has no interest in this, and that there are many uncertainties involved.

And the families wishes cannot trump the states if they are illegal.
 
If the mother dies and the fetus has a chance, let the family members decide if life support should be used. However the chance needs to also be reasonable, a week at most i guess.

Keeping a body around for almost a month to keep a fetus alive sounds like a zombie experiment.
 

devilhawk

Member
The wishes of the deceased mother (as any abortion) and family should trump that of the state.

None of the examples had a few hours or days before delivery date or was near viability*

*the point a woman cannot have an elective abortion.
18 weeks is not too far off, however. I believe they have delivered healthy babies after 21-22 weeks. As neonatal care and NNICU's improve, the viability cutoff is only going to be earlier.
 
Most women, and men, do not have foresight to leave their own living will, these cases generally involve accidents or sudden and quick diseases.

Who is to say? Who has more influence? The husband? What if theyre not married? What if theyre seperated? What if he is out of the picture? The family? which family?

Lets not pretend that the state has no interest in this, and that there are many uncertainties involved.

And the families wishes cannot trump the states if they are illegal.

Their significant other can attest to the deceased wishes stance on pro-life/choice if they don't have a living will.

Also the wishes of the family wasn't illegal in this case but the Hospitals decision to keep a deceased person on life support was though. The limits of the states "interest" where established by the judge.

18 weeks is not too far off, however. I believe they have delivered healthy babies after 21-22 weeks. As neonatal care and NNICU's improve, the viability cutoff is only going to be earlier.

You can't tell a woman they can't have an abortion because they're near the legal cut-off limit. So the same should apply in this situation.

Also there is no evidence abortion-viability laws will march lock-step with improved life support. There have been plenty of babies who survived (albeit with health problems) a pre-viability early pregnancy and the law wasn't changed.

Abortion is illegal in Northern Ireland too

I meant religion, NI is not Catholic iirc, but you are correct it's not legal there.
 
Wow at the misscarriage bloodpoisoning death

how did noone (doctors or anyone) even just cart her to the nearest train station with a ticket to the civilized world where they wouldn't let her die?
 

Dr.Guru of Peru

played the long game
18 weeks is not too far off, however. I believe they have delivered healthy babies after 21-22 weeks. As neonatal care and NNICU's improve, the viability cutoff is only going to be earlier.
No, they haven't. 22 week old babies are not healthy. The vast majority die.

Even if they were healthy, thats still 1 month for a body to be on life support. Thats not close.
 

KPJZKC

Member
Wow at the misscarriage bloodpoisoning death

how did noone (doctors or anyone) even just cart her to the nearest train station with a ticket to the civilized world where they wouldn't let her die?

...Ireland is an island, man.

Although while abortion still wouldn't be legal in NI, it's possible the physicians may have been more open to the miscarriage abortion - so I guess you might be right :p
 

GaimeGuy

Volunteer Deputy Campaign Director, Obama for America '16
A state should never be able to use a dead person's corpse as a baby-oven. The state should have no interest in the matter other than as an arbitrator.
 

Tugatrix

Member
Parliament passed the law last year after a 31-year-old woman, suffering a protracted miscarriage, was refused an abortion and died of blood poisoning.

WTF WTF WTF

Why would they still restrict abortion in these cases? I get the Catholic heritage but damn some common sense should be taken in consideration.
 

Yen

Member
WTF WTF WTF

Why would they still restrict abortion in these cases? I get the Catholic heritage but damn some common sense should be taken in consideration.

I think Ireland might be the only country in the world where "protection of the unborn" is written into the constitution. That was amended into it in the eighties after a referendum (!!) when the church still had a massive influence. While the church no longer holds any moral authority, lobbying groups such as (the awful) Iona Institute still hold sway over cowardly politicians and the equally awful media.
 

kharma45

Member
I think Ireland might be the only country in the world where "protection of the unborn" is written into the constitution. That was amended into it in the eighties after a referendum (!!) when the church still had a massive influence. While the church no longer holds any moral authority, lobbying groups such as (the awful) Iona Institute still hold sway over cowardly politicians and the equally awful media.

Ireland, North and South, are scarily backwards when it comes to abortion laws. It'll take another generation before we see any progress.
 

monreader

Neo Member
Ireland are living 50 years in the past

Blame the catholic church. They basically ruled the country up until the 80's, and these stupid laws are still in place!

Another good one, not one pub is allowed to open on Good Friday, due to some stupid laws the catholic church brought in. This is a law dating back to 1927 and is still enforced. Quite ironic though how the church enforced these laws, but they let thousands of kids in there care to be abused!
 

NateDog

Member
I think Ireland might be the only country in the world where "protection of the unborn" is written into the constitution. That was amended into it in the eighties after a referendum (!!) when the church still had a massive influence. While the church no longer holds any moral authority, lobbying groups such as (the awful) Iona Institute still hold sway over cowardly politicians and the equally awful media.

While I agree that the church's power has waned significantly here (especially in the last 10-20 years), I disagree that it no longer holds any moral authority. Laws like this and other aspects of Irish society surely enough show that the church still holds some sway in many Irish societal matters.
 

Particle Physicist

between a quark and a baryon
http://news.yahoo.com/irish-court-end-life-support-pregnant-woman-141015383.html

Death of Savita Halappanavar
Wiki article dealing with the death of the 31 year old mentioned in the article
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Savita_Halappanavar

The woman suffered irreversible brain death on Dec. 3, four days after sustaining a severe head injury in a fall. She had already been hospitalized after doctors found a cyst in her brain.

Sound alike she suffered a severe head injury while already hospitalized. How does that happen? Talk about negligence.
 

monreader

Neo Member
While I agree that the church's power has waned significantly here (especially in the last 10-20 years), I disagree that it no longer holds any moral authority. Laws like this and other aspects of Irish society surely enough show that the church still holds some sway in many Irish societal matters.

I agree with that! Its going to be interesting seeing the support that the church will be putting behind a no vote for gay marriage in the next few months.

Another thing I don't understand is why the hell our national broadcaster still plays the angelus every day. The sooner the church has less say in this country, the better!
 
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