Mama Smurf said:I might as well ask the question that has been playing on my mind though: (same spoiler rules as above)Management claims to be Ben's equivalent as Henry is to the priest right? But it's a lie yeah, in reality he was just using Ben to get HS to him to find out who his equivalent this generation really is? I need to watch all the episodes through again, but that's the impression I've got.
SKluck said:I didn't see the first season, but I tried to join in with the premiere of the second season. Usually its fairly easy to pick up on a show at season starts. Holy shit I was wrong. I got no idea what the fuck was happening. I read up a little and know the preacher guy is actually evil (demon, devil?) and the circus kid is good. But thats about it. I didn't gain anything from watching the show. So they never meet? It's just 2 seperate storylines building up to some kind of climax/battle that is going to happen sooner or later?
That's because a woman does indeed voice him.Mama Smurf said:anyone else think he has a woman's voice everytime he talks?
Management wanted to die by Ben's hand. There's a reason that Justin is seeking to kill Scudder, as that gives him more power, and it seems to me to be the same as with Management and Ben. Management played with Ben in order to get him to murder Lodz, and he did the same here. Scudder however, we know that he's been trying to escape his destiny, as in being the evil Creature of Darkness that he is, so that explains why he doesn't try and stop this or do anything proactive except revealing the current generation's Creature of Darkness. Management is simply pushing Ben forward, and that final awakening of Management at the end of the last episode was surely him transferring his powers. Everything in the next episode's preview supports this.
They're both feeble, old men at that point.
The fact that Management was able to jump out and attack with almost no limbs is proof, along with no red blood, of how he's just living on rage right now.
Also, I think you missed the point. Management powers the Carnivale some how, or channels energy in the same way Ben does, because when he was dying, so did the power. But when he grabbed Ben and was sucking the life out of him, the Carnivale powered back up.
They're not just strangling each other, they're sucking the LIFE out of each other.
I fully suspect that you're wrong. Listen to the introductory thesises for both seasons. Both support my thoughts on Scudder and Management's roles. Also, the dream with all four Avatars in the diner from the first season, notice the placement of Scudder and Management in relation to Justin and Ben; Justin and Scudder on the left (left hand of God?), the other two on the right. Also, Daniel Knauf (the creator) has indicated that (not really spoilers...)Mama Smurf said:Scudder really is the bad one? So the bad one's son is the good one, and the good one's son is the bad one? I thought that was just a trick the russian was playing to get Ben on his side so he could use him. Wilco seemed to have thought so too, given his reply to my question. Are we wrong? Is there evidence to suggest that its the way you say? There could well be, I've only watched each episode once, it's quite possible I've missed/forgotten points.
I really don't think there's anything to it. Doesn't matter who does the voice. There isn't some secret in the wings about Bart Simpson being voiced by a womanAs for the woman's voice...that's very strange. I'm gonna assume it's an as yet to be revealed story point, as otherwise it seems completely random.
Well, yes, but that's just an example. My point is mainly that I don't expect there to be anything to it. I just don't get a sense that it's of any importance. If anything it may have just been some minor misdirection with regard to Management's identity.Mama Smurf said:Yeah, but Bart's a kid. His voice hasn't broken. If they couldn't find a male character who can do a good creepy voice, they need to hire a new casting director. I mean, if she sounded like a man, I wouldn't care, but she doesn't.
I think it would make since for Rasputin to have been Lucious Belyakov's father, which lends credibility to the switching the Creature of Darkness/Light every other generation.
Evil is a concept based in relativity, and we all know how Justin/Alexsei and Iris/Irina think. I mean, Irina claims her father is evil and that he had sent people to kill them, and then a short time later Alexsei murders someone. Iris proceeds to dedicate her life to discovering Justin's destiny. Irina was visibly afraid of her father, but not of Alexsei, and that continues. Plus, why would Management want to kill his children? Because he realizes what they're meant to do, or at least Justin. It seems that Management believes he succeeded, believing the trainwreck took care of them. I would hazard to guess that it's similar to why Appolonia tried to murder herself and Sophie...android said:I do.
I think the Russian is the evil one because Iris Crowe, as a child, said her "fahsure" was a evil man. We now know for certain that Management is their father. I think these powers have been passed down from father to son for thousands of years. It's probably how Ben's grandfather and uncles died. Futhermore Scudder is a lot like his son in that they seem to fear their powers. While Management and Brother Justin (creepy hearing my name every time I watch) have embraced their darkness. A creature of good would not have told Lodz to kill Ruthie and then told Ben what happened, knowing Lodz would die. He was playing with them all.
I also don't think Management powering of the Carnivale makes him good. It just means he might be a wolf in sheeps clothing, hiding in the flock.
Not possible. Rasputin and Scudder's names appear in the book's inside cover. They have the same role. Which means Management is Scudder's opposite unless you want to try and argue that one of them is not actually an Avatar, which would just be an exercise in futility.Or it just means that Rasputin was evil, Management is evil and Justin is evil
I always thought this said that the evil one was wounded and fled. It makes more sense now. But I guess the "fled to America" part also threw me off. Because Management was from Russia, while Scudder was American. I assumed it would be the "dark one returned to America or his homeland" if it was Scudder.Dan said:Samson: On the heels of the skirmish man foolishly called The War to End All Wars, the dark one sought to elude his destiny, and live as a mortal. So he fled across the ocean to the empire called America. But by his mere presence, a cancer corrupted the spirit of the land. People were rendered mute by fools who spoke many words but said nothing... for whom oppression and cowardice were virtues... and freedom, an obscenity. And into this dark heartland, a prophet stalked his enemy. Until, dimished by his wounds, he turned to the next in the ancient line of light. And so it was that the fate of mankind came to rest on the trembling shoulders of the most reluctant of saviors...
I guess that means that Scudder and his family fought, with them dying. But why did his Grandmother try and kill him if she knew that Ben would be good like her husband and unlike her son? She would know that he will be the one to end Scudder's live, ending his generation.Dan said:Plus, why would Management want to kill his children? Because he realizes what they're meant to do, or at least Justin. It seems that Management believes he succeeded, believing the trainwreck took care of them. I would hazard to guess that it's similar to why Appolonia tried to murder herself and Sophie...
Well, according to Ben's cousins, the night Henry Scudder was born, Grandma Scudder murdered her other sons and her husband and then she gouged her own eyes out. Grandpa Scudder was also a Grand Dragon of the KKK and helped found it, which I would say points more to the whole issue of free will that all the Avatars deal with.android said:I guess that means that Scudder and his family fought, with them dying. But why did his Grandmother try and kill him if she knew that Ben would be good like her husband and unlike her son? She would know that he will be the one to end Scudder's live, ending his generation.
That's right Granny killed them. Forgot that.Dan said:Well, according to Ben's cousins, the night Henry Scudder was born, Grandma Scudder murdered her other sons and her husband and then she gouged her own eyes out. Grandpa Scudder was also a Grand Dragon of the KKK and helped found it, which I would say points more to the whole issue of free will that all the Avatars deal with.
Just saw the preview on the website. So I guess Samson doesn't stop the fightSo yeah, there are some random thoughts, avoiding influence from the preview info for the next episode and some clips from the Season Two trailer and its ads that have yet to be used.
Just saw the preview on the website. So I guess Samson doesn't stop the fight
That's definitely a safe assumption given Samson's first speech which talks of how the age of magic and wonder ends with the A-bomb test at Trinity, marking the beginning of the age of reason. It'll be interesting to see how that comes to be though, and whether that involves either Ben or Justin 'winning', or some other party, or whether they all just become irrelevant somehow.Mama Smurf said:Assuming this is a decisive generation, which makes sense given that they're focusing on these particular people, I think something needs to be different for that to be so.
That's cooled down quite a bit though. Justin's taken a liking to the maids that are rather quickly hired and fired. I don't think we've seen anything real sexual between the two since Justin was caught eyeing Iris's legs in the second or third episode of this season. I'm a bit curious to see if that causes any trouble between the two on top of everything else that's happened between them.android said:Justin and Iris are very incestous which could lead to her child.
I was thinking that Iris would be the one who started it up again. She completely shut down Tommy Dolan's advances. I think she sees her self as Justin's partner rather than sister. To take it even further I think it was Scudder raping Apollonia, making Ben and Sofia brother and sister. They even have the same jawlines. :lolDan said:That's cooled down quite a bit though. Justin's taken a liking to the maids that are rather quickly hired and fired. I don't think we've seen anything real sexual between the two since Justin was caught eyeing Iris's legs in the second or third episode of this season. I'm a bit curious to see if that causes any trouble between the two on top of everything else that's happened between them.
android said:I was thinking that Iris would be the one who started it up again. She completely shut down Tommy Dolan's advances. I think she sees her self as Justin's partner rather than sister. To take it even further I think it was Scudder raping Apollonia, making Ben and Sofia brother and sister. They even have the same jawlines. :lol
Well,ConfusingJazz said:Is anybody else besides me kinda wonder if SophieOr I could just be smoking crack.is brother Justin's daughter? It kinda makes sense after seeing what he did to that other maid that maybe he raped sophie's mom like 20 years ago, which made her a vegtable and gave her the gift of foresight.
This needs to be seconded, although a few HBO works have been really amazing (like Band of Brothers). The show is truly a visual treat and it only gets better really.The cinematography is probably the best I have ever seen for a TV show
Dan said:Well,Seems extremely likely. Sophie sure seems to be testing Brother Justin. He's obviously incapable, thus far, of influencing her mind as he's done many times to other people. It'll be interesting to see where their bond goes, especially with their encounter at the end. It's been a long time since Brother Justin has been seen like that. Hell, maybe not since the very first episode with Eleanor.the vision that Apollonia sent to Sophie did show the Tatooed Man raping her, with flashes of Brother Justin in the same position.
Definitely agree about Jonesy. He was the first character that really won me over. His attempts at connecting with Sophie were just really sympathetic, and he didn't have any magical abilities to add any mystery in the beginning. Right from that first episode, he was the guy I was rooting for. Plus, he's just that one guy full of heart and always trying to do the right thing, even if it doesn't always work out.Willco said:Ben is getting allies out of guys like Samson and Jonsey (a character I always felt was the true base of the show, a person the audience could relate to), both of whom are good, righteous guys who want to defend Ben now.
Yeah, now Ben's basically on a sprint, gaining support like crazy. He's got his boon and he's fully embraced his role and winning over the carnival crew. Meanwhile, Justin's world is on shaky grounds. He's getting more common supporters and getting into the political game with Templeton, but those closest to him may not be very good allies any longer.I was getting worried, because for awhile, it looked like Justin was getting all this help and Ben was getting none.
Hmm, who knows. Iris is all over the place. She's certainly a danger to Justin, but I'm not exactly sure why or for what purpose. She's still an unknown in my book. Without Justin she has no known motive, so who knows. I'm very intrigued about where her character goes. I didn't really care for her in the beginning (mostly because I preferred seeing Justin develop) but she's become such a powerful force. She's in complete control of herself, and I just really want to know more about what she's seeking. Amy Madigan is brilliant in the role, which helps, but Iris has really come into her own as well.Dan, next week's preview has Iris continuing the same kind of talk with Norman, so I'm totally confused by this recent development.
The generation thing can be confusing. We know Ben and Justin are opposites, so they're considered the same generation despite the age difference. The first dictionary definition is: All of the offspring that are at the same stage of descent from a common ancestor; so exact ages aren't the most important. One way or another the age at which the avatars were being born was skewed, so I don't think for the purposes of this show that Ben and Sophie are of the same generation. Otherwise it'd be really confusing with oppositional avataric forces being from different generations.I don't think Sofie is the next avatar. She's from the same generation as Ben. Her child on the other hand...
Willco said:Ben is getting allies out of guys like Samson and Jonsey (a character I always felt was the true base of the show, a person the audience could relate to), both of whom are good, righteous guys who want to defend Ben now.
I was getting worried, because for awhile, it looked like Justin was getting all this help and Ben was getting none.
Dan, next week's preview has Iris continuing the same kind of talk with Norman, so I'm totally confused by this recent development.
I don't think Sofie is the next avatar. She's from the same generation as Ben. Her child on the other hand...