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Is anybody watching Carnivale anymore?

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Doc Holliday

SPOILER: Columbus finds America
This season is moving so much faster than last season's. Last episode was probably one of the best eps of any show ever!!
 

SKluck

Banned
I didn't see the first season, but I tried to join in with the premiere of the second season. Usually its fairly easy to pick up on a show at season starts. Holy shit I was wrong. I got no idea what the fuck was happening. I read up a little and know the preacher guy is actually evil (demon, devil?) and the circus kid is good. But thats about it. I didn't gain anything from watching the show. So they never meet? It's just 2 seperate storylines building up to some kind of climax/battle that is going to happen sooner or later?
 
I'm a huge fan of Carnivale. Yeah, it's kinda slow and boring depends on who is writing the script. But most of the part is good and keeps you on the edge of your chair.
 

Mama Smurf

My penis is still intact.
I watch it. It's good, though I think it's blown out of all proportion by some (now Deadwood, there's a show worthy of all the praise you could give).

I actually thought it was much better the second half of last season. Or from the episode where we found out about the priest and his sister's past anyway. That was a brilliant episode.

I'm still not sure how a show can pull off such great stuff (the dream early on in the first season where the window exploded for example) and then such crap too (if you're up to date not a spoiler
the fight between the russian and Ben's dad. I was closer to laughing than actually thinking it looked cool
).

I might as well ask the question that has been playing on my mind though: (same spoiler rules as above)
Management claims to be Ben's equivalent as Henry is to the priest right? But it's a lie yeah, in reality he was just using Ben to get HS to him to find out who his equivalent this generation really is? I need to watch all the episodes through again, but that's the impression I've got.
 

Willco

Hollywood Square
Mama Smurf said:
I might as well ask the question that has been playing on my mind though: (same spoiler rules as above)
Management claims to be Ben's equivalent as Henry is to the priest right? But it's a lie yeah, in reality he was just using Ben to get HS to him to find out who his equivalent this generation really is? I need to watch all the episodes through again, but that's the impression I've got.

Yeah, Ben was used. I think he was using Ben in hopes of helping his equivalent.

SKluck said:
I didn't see the first season, but I tried to join in with the premiere of the second season. Usually its fairly easy to pick up on a show at season starts. Holy shit I was wrong. I got no idea what the fuck was happening. I read up a little and know the preacher guy is actually evil (demon, devil?) and the circus kid is good. But thats about it. I didn't gain anything from watching the show. So they never meet? It's just 2 seperate storylines building up to some kind of climax/battle that is going to happen sooner or later?

They haven't met, but as of Season 2, both are now aware of each other's existence. But, yeah, for the most part, it's two storylines building up to this climatic showdown of good versus evil.

The most important thing I've learned from Carnivale is that the slow/boring episodes have a tendency to become more important as the season goes on. You're like, "OOOooooooh!"
 

Mama Smurf

My penis is still intact.
You know, generally, I really, really hate stories with ultimate good and ultimate evil. Especially if they're so good or so evil for no reason. Very few things can pull it off for me, though it happens occasionally. So the fact that I actually like Carnivale must mean it's doing things pretty damn well.

I do have some problems with this season so far compared to last season. While I hated his character at first (knowing laughter drives me mad, it's such cliched crap: another example of Carnivale doing things so well, yet so bad), the blind guy really made the story more interesting when it became clear he was working with Management to influence Ben (his rivalry with Samson was good too). I guess he was replaced in a way by that criminal who's been tracking Ben down, though I've not found that half as interesting.

Then there's Management. After the build up and the mystery and the tension...I was a bit disappointed with the reveal. It's quite good that he's the russian (anyone else think he has a woman's voice everytime he talks?), but after Samson's talk of him to Jonesy ("You're lucky to be alive. If Management doesn't want to be seen, he won't be. He can do lots of things." Paraphrased), I guess I was hoping to be blown away after such a build up when we finally found out just who, or what, Management was.

At the least I expected
Scudder and he finally meeting and fighting to be a bit more epic than trying to strangle each other. Oh, I forgot...the lights at the Carnivale went out. OOOOOOoooo.
 

Dan

No longer boycotting the Wolfenstein franchise
I watched the first season on DVD in December and absolutely loved it, and this second season is just kicking ass as well. I understand the comments about this show being slow even less than for Lost. Everything that goes into this show is interesting and works for setting something up. Sure, the first season may have had less action and excitement, but without it this season would mean so much less. You need those introductions and development in order to have a payoff, and Carnivale has balanced it all quite well.

Neither Ben nor Brother Justin know the name of their adversary. Justin only believes he has to find and kill Scudder, and Scudder has revealed Ben's adversary to be Alexi Belyakov (Justin, aka Management's son). Ben and Justin have been seeing each other in their dreams since the very beginning of the show though.

My thoughts on the Management/Scudder fight:
Management wanted to die by Ben's hand. There's a reason that Justin is seeking to kill Scudder, as that gives him more power, and it seems to me to be the same as with Management and Ben. Management played with Ben in order to get him to murder Lodz, and he did the same here. Scudder however, we know that he's been trying to escape his destiny, as in being the evil Creature of Darkness that he is, so that explains why he doesn't try and stop this or do anything proactive except revealing the current generation's Creature of Darkness. Management is simply pushing Ben forward, and that final awakening of Management at the end of the last episode was surely him transferring his powers. Everything in the next episode's preview supports this.

This is absolutely my favorite show on television right now. My Sunday nights are completely owned by the latest episode. I think about the last one all week and contemplate what will come next.

Edit:
Mama Smurf said:
anyone else think he has a woman's voice everytime he talks?
That's because a woman does indeed voice him.
 

Willco

Hollywood Square
I think you missed the point:

They're both feeble, old men at that point. The fact that Management was able to jump out and attack with almost no limbs is proof, along with no red blood, of how he's just living on rage right now.

Also, I think you missed the point. Management powers the Carnivale some how, or channels energy in the same way Ben does, because when he was dying, so did the power. But when he grabbed Ben and was sucking the life out of him, the Carnivale powered back up.

They're not just strangling each other, they're sucking the LIFE out of each other.
 

Mama Smurf

My penis is still intact.
Management wanted to die by Ben's hand. There's a reason that Justin is seeking to kill Scudder, as that gives him more power, and it seems to me to be the same as with Management and Ben. Management played with Ben in order to get him to murder Lodz, and he did the same here. Scudder however, we know that he's been trying to escape his destiny, as in being the evil Creature of Darkness that he is, so that explains why he doesn't try and stop this or do anything proactive except revealing the current generation's Creature of Darkness. Management is simply pushing Ben forward, and that final awakening of Management at the end of the last episode was surely him transferring his powers. Everything in the next episode's preview supports this.

Woah there. Luckily you haven't mentioned any real details, but I'd prefer nto to know whats in previews for the next episode, I do my best to avoid them.

That would certainly make the fight better. But I'm totally confused by some of your points:

Scudder really is the bad one? So the bad one's son is the good one, and the good one's son is the bad one? I thought that was just a trick the russian was playing to get Ben on his side so he could use him. Wilco seemed to have thought so too, given his reply to my question. Are we wrong? Is there evidence to suggest that its the way you say? There could well be, I've only watched each episode once, it's quite possible I've missed/forgotten points.

As for the woman's voice...that's very strange. I'm gonna assume it's an as yet to be revealed story point, as otherwise it seems completely random.

They're both feeble, old men at that point.

Well yeah, but it seems pretty clear their powers have little to do with physical strength.

The fact that Management was able to jump out and attack with almost no limbs is proof, along with no red blood, of how he's just living on rage right now.

....proof? Holding your body together and blue blood is proof of living on rage? It's proof of both his powers and difference to normal men, sure, but that's all.

Also, I think you missed the point. Management powers the Carnivale some how, or channels energy in the same way Ben does, because when he was dying, so did the power. But when he grabbed Ben and was sucking the life out of him, the Carnivale powered back up.

That's all fine (though we can't be certain he was sucking Ben's life), I'm just saying none of this is very impressive to me. The fact that the lights mean something doesn't change that.

They're not just strangling each other, they're sucking the LIFE out of each other.

How do you know? Maybe they are, but, unless I'm forgetting something, I haven't seen anyone demonstrate that ability yet. Not directly like this anyway.
 

Dan

No longer boycotting the Wolfenstein franchise
Mama Smurf said:
Scudder really is the bad one? So the bad one's son is the good one, and the good one's son is the bad one? I thought that was just a trick the russian was playing to get Ben on his side so he could use him. Wilco seemed to have thought so too, given his reply to my question. Are we wrong? Is there evidence to suggest that its the way you say? There could well be, I've only watched each episode once, it's quite possible I've missed/forgotten points.
I fully suspect that you're wrong. Listen to the introductory thesises for both seasons. Both support my thoughts on Scudder and Management's roles. Also, the dream with all four Avatars in the diner from the first season, notice the placement of Scudder and Management in relation to Justin and Ben; Justin and Scudder on the left (left hand of God?), the other two on the right. Also, Daniel Knauf (the creator) has indicated that (not really spoilers...)
things are more literal than many believe, as opposed to elaborately designed misdirections. He applied this thought to both the notion of who is a Creature of Darkness and Creature of Light, and also to Samson's opening thesis for both seasons.
Also, on the book that Smith (the Satanist from the second season premiere) gave to Brother Justin, there was a list of names on the front cover that had been crossed off, and only Scudder's remained. One of the ones that were crossed off was Rasputin (listed just above Scudder), and if we assume the Avatars are a bloodline (which there has yet to be evidence disputing), I think it would make since for Rasputin to have been Lucious Belyakov's father, which lends credibility to the
switching the Creature of Darkness/Light every other generation.

As for the woman's voice...that's very strange. I'm gonna assume it's an as yet to be revealed story point, as otherwise it seems completely random.
I really don't think there's anything to it. Doesn't matter who does the voice. There isn't some secret in the wings about Bart Simpson being voiced by a woman ;) Linda Hunt apparently just has a very good voice and she was selected to give Management a creepy unsettling voice.
 

Mama Smurf

My penis is still intact.
Yeah, but Bart's a kid. His voice hasn't broken. If they couldn't find a male character who can do a good creepy voice, they need to hire a new casting director. I mean, if she sounded like a man, I wouldn't care, but she doesn't.

You're right on the who's good and who's evil front. I listened to the openings to the seasons (not that the first one really helped either way) and the second season opener makes it extremely clear. No need to really touch the other points after that.
 

Dan

No longer boycotting the Wolfenstein franchise
Mama Smurf said:
Yeah, but Bart's a kid. His voice hasn't broken. If they couldn't find a male character who can do a good creepy voice, they need to hire a new casting director. I mean, if she sounded like a man, I wouldn't care, but she doesn't.
Well, yes, but that's just an example. My point is mainly that I don't expect there to be anything to it. I just don't get a sense that it's of any importance. If anything it may have just been some minor misdirection with regard to Management's identity.

I could be wrong, but I'm just not expecting the voice to be touched on.
 

android

Theoretical Magician
I do.
I think the Russian is the evil one because Iris Crowe, as a child, said her "fahsure" was a evil man. We now know for certain that Management is their father. I think these powers have been passed down from father to son for thousands of years. It's probably how Ben's grandfather and uncles died. Futhermore Scudder is a lot like his son in that they seem to fear their powers. While Management and Brother Justin (creepy hearing my name every time I watch :) ) have embraced their darkness. A creature of good would not have told Lodz to kill Ruthie and then told Ben what happened, knowing Lodz would die. He was playing with them all.
I also don't think Management powering of the Carnivale makes him good. It just means he might be a wolf in sheeps clothing, hiding in the flock.

I think it would make since for Rasputin to have been Lucious Belyakov's father, which lends credibility to the switching the Creature of Darkness/Light every other generation.
Or it just means that Rasputin was evil, Management is evil and Justin is evil
 

android

Theoretical Magician
Just thought of something else.
What do you guys think Samson is? Does he know what is going on? Because at the begining of the seasons, he gave his monolgues, but on a day to day basis he doesn't seem to know anything. Did they just use him for the monologue because of his acting abilities?
 

Dan

No longer boycotting the Wolfenstein franchise
android said:
I do.
I think the Russian is the evil one because Iris Crowe, as a child, said her "fahsure" was a evil man. We now know for certain that Management is their father. I think these powers have been passed down from father to son for thousands of years. It's probably how Ben's grandfather and uncles died. Futhermore Scudder is a lot like his son in that they seem to fear their powers. While Management and Brother Justin (creepy hearing my name every time I watch :) ) have embraced their darkness. A creature of good would not have told Lodz to kill Ruthie and then told Ben what happened, knowing Lodz would die. He was playing with them all.
I also don't think Management powering of the Carnivale makes him good. It just means he might be a wolf in sheeps clothing, hiding in the flock.
Evil is a concept based in relativity, and we all know how Justin/Alexsei and Iris/Irina think. I mean, Irina claims her father is evil and that he had sent people to kill them, and then a short time later Alexsei murders someone. Iris proceeds to dedicate her life to discovering Justin's destiny. Irina was visibly afraid of her father, but not of Alexsei, and that continues. Plus, why would Management want to kill his children? Because he realizes what they're meant to do, or at least Justin. It seems that Management believes he succeeded, believing the trainwreck took care of them. I would hazard to guess that it's similar to why Appolonia tried to murder herself and Sophie...

Sorry man, you can think what you want, but I guarantee I'm right. Besides, you can use the same argument to try and make Ben out to be evil, because he killed. Fact is, the Avatars all have great tension between their Biblical powers and humanity. It's been said countless times that one of the show's main themes is free will.

Samson: On the heels of the skirmish man foolishly called The War to End All Wars, the dark one sought to elude his destiny, and live as a mortal. So he fled across the ocean to the empire called America. But by his mere presence, a cancer corrupted the spirit of the land. People were rendered mute by fools who spoke many words but said nothing... for whom oppression and cowardice were virtues... and freedom, an obscenity. And into this dark heartland, a prophet stalked his enemy. Until, dimished by his wounds, he turned to the next in the ancient line of light. And so it was that the fate of mankind came to rest on the trembling shoulders of the most reluctant of saviors...

translated...
"Scudder chooses to fight his destiny"
Scudder goes as far as to hide himself away in a random town, mutilate his face for disguise, and either telepathically or through bribery have at least one person cover for him (the desk clerk, claiming Scudder ditched town).

"Belyakov follows Scudder to America. He is dying of his wounds (duh) and turns to the next Creature of Light, Ben, and arranges to transfer to him his power."

We know that Management arrived after Scudder already left the troupe, which would make no sense in conjunction with Samson's speech if Scudder were the Creature of Light. It's really not that tricky.

I couldn't possibly be more confident in who the last generation's Creature of Darkness and Creature of Light were. All the evidence is there.

Or it just means that Rasputin was evil, Management is evil and Justin is evil
Not possible. Rasputin and Scudder's names appear in the book's inside cover. They have the same role. Which means Management is Scudder's opposite unless you want to try and argue that one of them is not actually an Avatar, which would just be an exercise in futility.

The evidence is all there. The only way to dispute it is to try and make it all far more complicated and metaphorical (specifically Samson's intros) and Daniel Knauf has stated that this isn't the best way to approach the show.
 

android

Theoretical Magician
Dan said:
Samson: On the heels of the skirmish man foolishly called The War to End All Wars, the dark one sought to elude his destiny, and live as a mortal. So he fled across the ocean to the empire called America. But by his mere presence, a cancer corrupted the spirit of the land. People were rendered mute by fools who spoke many words but said nothing... for whom oppression and cowardice were virtues... and freedom, an obscenity. And into this dark heartland, a prophet stalked his enemy. Until, dimished by his wounds, he turned to the next in the ancient line of light. And so it was that the fate of mankind came to rest on the trembling shoulders of the most reluctant of saviors...
I always thought this said that the evil one was wounded and fled. It makes more sense now. But I guess the "fled to America" part also threw me off. Because Management was from Russia, while Scudder was American. I assumed it would be the "dark one returned to America or his homeland" if it was Scudder.

Dan said:
Plus, why would Management want to kill his children? Because he realizes what they're meant to do, or at least Justin. It seems that Management believes he succeeded, believing the trainwreck took care of them. I would hazard to guess that it's similar to why Appolonia tried to murder herself and Sophie...
I guess that means that Scudder and his family fought, with them dying. But why did his Grandmother try and kill him if she knew that Ben would be good like her husband and unlike her son? She would know that he will be the one to end Scudder's live, ending his generation.


So what do you want to bet happens tomorrow? I think Samson will step into the fray and Scudder will flee. Then Management will tell the Ben the truth, with Samson there to hear all. With Scudder on the run and harassing them, Ben will go after Brother Justin, starting the start of the confrontation we were promised.
 

Dan

No longer boycotting the Wolfenstein franchise
android said:
I guess that means that Scudder and his family fought, with them dying. But why did his Grandmother try and kill him if she knew that Ben would be good like her husband and unlike her son? She would know that he will be the one to end Scudder's live, ending his generation.
Well, according to Ben's cousins, the night Henry Scudder was born, Grandma Scudder murdered her other sons and her husband and then she gouged her own eyes out. Grandpa Scudder was also a Grand Dragon of the KKK and helped found it, which I would say points more to the whole issue of free will that all the Avatars deal with.

And... I'm not really sure. I lost my train of thought. Something's up with Grandma Scudder. She murdered everyone around her except for Henry Scudder, which raises the question of where those cousins came from... I don't know, Henry's birth sure set her off though. I'm not sure whether to think she's just plain crazy at this point or what, so I'm not real clear on how her scene with the knife should be read. One thought however, is that since she went crazy after having Henry, does that mean Ben's other uncles were born of another man?

I think the real mystery is how the roles of the two main women will pan out.

You've got Sophie, who has left the troupe. Where's she going? Let's also remember the image Sophie had of her mother being raped by the Usher of Destruction, intecut with Justin. If this was an accurate representation of the past, does that make Sophie the daughter of Justin? Or is it a complicated symbolism of either Scudder, being the previous generation's COD, raping Apollonia or a strange prediction of Justin raping Sophie, or even both? I can't remember how Sophie's 'conversation' with her mother about that image went, so that may have been partially cleared up.

Then there's the bit from the first episode where Justin screamed out at Ben when Sophie touched his hand. There's also the dream that at least Sophie had (not quite clear if Ben did too) of the two kissing during the A-bomb testing. Plus, Ben seems to have healed Sophie and removed her mother's presence from her mind during their encounter in the car, as she said "she's gone, what did you do?" Considering the fact that Apollonia tried to kill herself and her daughter and had discussions with Lodz that appeared to be about some secret regarding Sophie, I think she's going to end up playing a huge role. Something's up there and somehow she's likely involved in this by blood. The question seems to be by whose blood.

Even further, there's the whole sexual encounter between Sophie and Ben that culminated in a rainstorm... symbolism for fertility? As said, I think a lot of where this show goes, assuming HBO doesn't cancel it or anything, will hinge on what happens with Sophie.

Then there's Iris, who has known of Justin's powers for a long time and known that he had a higher calling. She most recently appeared in one of Justin's dreams with Ben's mask sewn into her face while she stabs Justin with the knife the Crone gave to Ben. Something is definitely going on there.

So yeah, there are some random thoughts, avoiding influence from the preview info for the next episode and some clips from the Season Two trailer and its ads that have yet to be used.
 

android

Theoretical Magician
Dan said:
Well, according to Ben's cousins, the night Henry Scudder was born, Grandma Scudder murdered her other sons and her husband and then she gouged her own eyes out. Grandpa Scudder was also a Grand Dragon of the KKK and helped found it, which I would say points more to the whole issue of free will that all the Avatars deal with.
That's right Granny killed them. Forgot that.
What if just as there was a Eve to Adam, there is a female line of Good and Evil. Apollonia and Granny in one generation, Sofie and Iris in the next, their children in the next. I think Apollonia wanted to prevent her daughter from having a child with Ben. She knew what would happen. Justin and Iris are very incestous which could lead to her child.


So yeah, there are some random thoughts, avoiding influence from the preview info for the next episode and some clips from the Season Two trailer and its ads that have yet to be used.
Just saw the preview on the website. So I guess Samson doesn't stop the fight
 

Mama Smurf

My penis is still intact.
I think Ben did see the vision Sophie definitely did, he seemed to react (like a gasp or whatever) as he does when he has them. He just said he didn't see anything because of his usual quiet act.

I think Sophie's the decisive factor here. Assuming this is a decisive generation, which makes sense given that they're focusing on these particular people, I think something needs to be different for that to be so. I think Sophie's a third influence. We have the good in Ben. The evil in Justin. But what in Sophie? She seems to have been birthed of evil if he vision was true. But, and I'm wildly speculating here, I'm going to say she's not an absolute. She can be influenced and whether she turns out more good or bad at decisive moments will decide the course of events.

We know she's vital. Her mother killed herself trying to get rid of her, the blind guys reaction, the fact that she's been told the phrase "Every prophet in her house" twice (more?) which is basically the same as "Every prophet in his house" that the four guys we know are the goods and evils saw in their dreams....and if good and evil are taken, what is she?

It could of course be some sort of scheme by evil (evil can scheme? You know what I mean) to tilt the balance with two evil prophets in one generation, only she's going fall in love with Ben and that'll sort of start balancing things.

Ah I dunno, there's nowhere near enough information yet.

Just saw the preview on the website. So I guess Samson doesn't stop the fight

Bloody...sshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! Save it one day please, we can all talk about it tomorrow.
 

Dan

No longer boycotting the Wolfenstein franchise
Mama Smurf said:
Assuming this is a decisive generation, which makes sense given that they're focusing on these particular people, I think something needs to be different for that to be so.
That's definitely a safe assumption given Samson's first speech which talks of how the age of magic and wonder ends with the A-bomb test at Trinity, marking the beginning of the age of reason. It'll be interesting to see how that comes to be though, and whether that involves either Ben or Justin 'winning', or some other party, or whether they all just become irrelevant somehow.

Sophie though, yeah, I definitely agree that she'll likely be pivotal and it could very well have to do with her free will.

There are few little mysteries remaining from the first season that could still be real significant. For instance, the fetus with the black eyes in the mysterious nonexistent baggage trailer. Knauf says that there is something to that on that episode's audio commentary, although who knows. Also, going back to the diner scene, the relationship between Scudder and Management could be more complex than we think. As the two nod heads and klink their glasses together the window pane explodes inward but the explosion only affects Justin and Ben. Neither Management or Scudder budges. Seems a bit conspiratorial eh?

android said:
Justin and Iris are very incestous which could lead to her child.
That's cooled down quite a bit though. Justin's taken a liking to the maids that are rather quickly hired and fired. I don't think we've seen anything real sexual between the two since Justin was caught eyeing Iris's legs in the second or third episode of this season. I'm a bit curious to see if that causes any trouble between the two on top of everything else that's happened between them.

I'm waiting for Lodz to reappear in a more significant role. Seems more likely now that Scudder has been found, as they traveled Europe together and Scudder gave Lodz his psychic abilities at the expense of his eyesight. Of course, Lodz wasn't aware of that little trade-off when he asked for some of Scudder's powers, and that's why he has been hunting for Scudder. Seems to me that Lodz and Management's relationship was one more of 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend'. At this point I expect that when Lodz manifests himself it'll be with a good deal of control over Ruthie's body.
 

android

Theoretical Magician
Dan said:
That's cooled down quite a bit though. Justin's taken a liking to the maids that are rather quickly hired and fired. I don't think we've seen anything real sexual between the two since Justin was caught eyeing Iris's legs in the second or third episode of this season. I'm a bit curious to see if that causes any trouble between the two on top of everything else that's happened between them.
I was thinking that Iris would be the one who started it up again. She completely shut down Tommy Dolan's advances. I think she sees her self as Justin's partner rather than sister. To take it even further I think it was Scudder raping Apollonia, making Ben and Sofia brother and sister. They even have the same jawlines. :lol
 

trilobyte

Member
Wow! Awesome episode!

Ben has found his power and calling. That scene with the mother was awesome. Sophie being the new maid was a complete surprise!

The way I see it, there are generations of good and evil that must fight eachother. Going all the way back to Jesus' time. Notice how they are all stabbing each other's torso's with knives? Maybe that has something to do with the fact that Jesus died by a Roman stabbing him in the torso w/ a spear. The tree could represent the cross maybe?
 
Yeah, it was a really good episode tonight. I didn't think they would be able to top last week's, but this one was at least as good or maybe better.

My friends and I accidently came up with a concept for some reason during this episode and we couldn't stop working on it. Prepare yourselves. Carnivale: Tarot Kart Racing, it should be for all platforms. Seriously, they haven't whored out their license yet. Besides, no one's tackled card-based kart racing yet. I got dibs on Lodz, he's the shit. Although I imagine Brother Justin will have some infernal turbo boost and Ben will be able to siphon other people's speed to add to his own.
 

Dan

No longer boycotting the Wolfenstein franchise
I'll spoiler this stuff since not everyone may have watched tonight's episode.

First off, booyah! I'm certainly right about Ben and Management and I predicted Sophie's destination correctly.

How great was Stroud killing Bonnie and Clyde? Then he turns and caps the gas station attendant. Heh, he's had some great scenes.

Iris is stonecold hardcore. She didn't even budge during Justin's episode in the beginning. Norman sure became active there too. Does Justin have some control over him or what?

I wonder what Smith's "unfinished business" with Scudder is...

Interesting that Ben could take Stroud's perspective, like with the masks, and affect him, either intentionally or unintentionally...

All the stuff with Jonesy and Libby, haha. That'll be some fun stuff.

Samson's discovery and understanding of Ben's powers was really great, with his healing at the ferris wheel and the return of the baggage trailer. I guess the fetus had to do with Management...

I really hope this gets picked up for at least one more season. Seems like everything I really dig on TV finds itself in some form of danger. Arrested Development, The Wire, this...
 

Willco

Hollywood Square
Last night's episode was awesome.

Stroud capping the gas guy was hilariously evil.

And I'm pretty sure Sophie is going to become important.

For sure, last night put an emphasis on both individuals collecting followers and going into some kind of collision course.

android said:
I was thinking that Iris would be the one who started it up again. She completely shut down Tommy Dolan's advances. I think she sees her self as Justin's partner rather than sister. To take it even further I think it was Scudder raping Apollonia, making Ben and Sofia brother and sister. They even have the same jawlines. :lol

Yeah, I agree and I think this is some kind of loophole if they ever wanted to continue the series because Sophie's child would be born of sin.
 
I just skimmed most of this thread because I haven't seen last night's episode yet, and didn't want to spoil anything. But I wanted to throw in another vote from someone else who's watching the show and loving it. The first season was great, but this season is where the shit finally is going down! This and Lost are my favorite dramatic shows on TV right now, by far.
 

android

Theoretical Magician
"We got pie." :lol Damn Stroud is one evil son of a bitch. No....Sofie... No. So how many more episodes this season. Two or Three? I guess it will end as Deadwood starts up again. And was that a World War Two plane Gabriel was craving or the Gee Bee racer? If it was the Gee Bee then it is okay (it existed then), but if not then maybe he can see the future, maybe at the expense of his mental capacity.
 

Particle Physicist

between a quark and a baryon
just want to jump in and say this is the only tv show that i watch..... its awesome indeed. indeed its awesome. man.. the ending of the last episode really caught be by surprise.
 

Dan

No longer boycotting the Wolfenstein franchise
Dan Knauf has confirmed how much of the plot he has planned out. Spoilers in the realm of season numbers and how to look at them (nothing directly plot related):
he's got six seasons sketched out in total, sort of as three three pairs of seasons.

Hopefully he's allowed to complete the story in the manner he most wants.
 

Willco

Hollywood Square
I think ultimately Ben is going to somehow change the whole generational system. He seems pretty stubborn to point out his own individuality and he seems to lend himself to humanity rather than some "higher priority".
 

Dan

No longer boycotting the Wolfenstein franchise
Yeha, Ben's pretty much the opposite of Brother Justin, who is declaring himself the most important part of his followers' faith.
 

trilobyte

Member
w00t! Starts in an hour :) Can't wait!

I think the last episode will be when Justin kills Scudder and gets his own "boon" IE Scudder's knowledge...much like what happened to Ben when he killed Belyakov
 

Willco

Hollywood Square
Wow, some stuff went down this episode! Questions aplenty:

Sofie is the omega? So what, she can end the whole cycle?
... Is Justin's sister good or evil, because she seems awfully evil!
 
Well, I love this show. The cinematography is probably the best I have ever seen for a TV show, and this chase down the Lincoln highway to california has really got me hooked.

Is anybody else besides me kinda wonder if Sophie
is brother Justin's daughter? It kinda makes sense after seeing what he did to that other maid that maybe he raped sophie's mom like 20 years ago, which made her a vegtable and gave her the gift of foresight.
Or I could just be smoking crack.
 

Dan

No longer boycotting the Wolfenstein franchise
ConfusingJazz said:
Is anybody else besides me kinda wonder if Sophie
is brother Justin's daughter? It kinda makes sense after seeing what he did to that other maid that maybe he raped sophie's mom like 20 years ago, which made her a vegtable and gave her the gift of foresight.
Or I could just be smoking crack.
Well,
the vision that Apollonia sent to Sophie did show the Tatooed Man raping her, with flashes of Brother Justin in the same position.
Seems extremely likely. Sophie sure seems to be testing Brother Justin. He's obviously incapable, thus far, of influencing her mind as he's done many times to other people. It'll be interesting to see where their bond goes, especially with their encounter at the end. It's been a long time since Brother Justin has been seen like that. Hell, maybe not since the very first episode with Eleanor.

On that note,
RIP Eleanor. I really liked her character from what we saw and her she gets beaten to death with a paddle.

Hard to say what side, if any, Iris is playing on. I missed the preview for the upcoming episodes or whatever was shown, but it's pretty unclear whether she's just messing with Norman or has serious interests in taking Justin down at some point, and if that's the case, for what purpose? She's spent her life propping him up, so does she just want to supplant him? Sure doesn't seem like she disagrees with his methods, except for when they're used on her.

Great episode though, the stuff with Jonesy was superb. Ben's influence is sure reaching around the carnival at this point. His supernatural touch has affected quite a few people now, and he's not even attempting at hiding his skill now. I wonder if someone will clue in Ruthie any time soon, before she goes absolutely insane from being periodically possessed by Lodz and seeing dead people.
The cinematography is probably the best I have ever seen for a TV show
This needs to be seconded, although a few HBO works have been really amazing (like Band of Brothers). The show is truly a visual treat and it only gets better really.
 
Dan said:
Well,
the vision that Apollonia sent to Sophie did show the Tatooed Man raping her, with flashes of Brother Justin in the same position.
Seems extremely likely. Sophie sure seems to be testing Brother Justin. He's obviously incapable, thus far, of influencing her mind as he's done many times to other people. It'll be interesting to see where their bond goes, especially with their encounter at the end. It's been a long time since Brother Justin has been seen like that. Hell, maybe not since the very first episode with Eleanor.

Yeah, and
thats another reason that I think Sophie is the Justin's daughter. She has just as strong will as she does, and she is also slated to be the next avatar as well, but I guess I will see how this plays out.
 

Willco

Hollywood Square
Ben is getting allies out of guys like Samson and Jonsey (a character I always felt was the true base of the show, a person the audience could relate to), both of whom are good, righteous guys who want to defend Ben now.

I was getting worried, because for awhile, it looked like Justin was getting all this help and Ben was getting none.

Dan, next week's preview has Iris continuing the same kind of talk with Norman, so I'm totally confused by this recent development.

I don't think Sofie is the next avatar. She's from the same generation as Ben. Her child on the other hand...
 

Dan

No longer boycotting the Wolfenstein franchise
Willco said:
Ben is getting allies out of guys like Samson and Jonsey (a character I always felt was the true base of the show, a person the audience could relate to), both of whom are good, righteous guys who want to defend Ben now.
Definitely agree about Jonesy. He was the first character that really won me over. His attempts at connecting with Sophie were just really sympathetic, and he didn't have any magical abilities to add any mystery in the beginning. Right from that first episode, he was the guy I was rooting for. Plus, he's just that one guy full of heart and always trying to do the right thing, even if it doesn't always work out.

I was getting worried, because for awhile, it looked like Justin was getting all this help and Ben was getting none.
Yeah, now Ben's basically on a sprint, gaining support like crazy. He's got his boon and he's fully embraced his role and winning over the carnival crew. Meanwhile, Justin's world is on shaky grounds. He's getting more common supporters and getting into the political game with Templeton, but those closest to him may not be very good allies any longer.

Dan, next week's preview has Iris continuing the same kind of talk with Norman, so I'm totally confused by this recent development.
Hmm, who knows. Iris is all over the place. She's certainly a danger to Justin, but I'm not exactly sure why or for what purpose. She's still an unknown in my book. Without Justin she has no known motive, so who knows. I'm very intrigued about where her character goes. I didn't really care for her in the beginning (mostly because I preferred seeing Justin develop) but she's become such a powerful force. She's in complete control of herself, and I just really want to know more about what she's seeking. Amy Madigan is brilliant in the role, which helps, but Iris has really come into her own as well.

I don't think Sofie is the next avatar. She's from the same generation as Ben. Her child on the other hand...
The generation thing can be confusing. We know Ben and Justin are opposites, so they're considered the same generation despite the age difference. The first dictionary definition is: All of the offspring that are at the same stage of descent from a common ancestor; so exact ages aren't the most important. One way or another the age at which the avatars were being born was skewed, so I don't think for the purposes of this show that Ben and Sophie are of the same generation. Otherwise it'd be really confusing with oppositional avataric forces being from different generations.
 
Willco said:
Ben is getting allies out of guys like Samson and Jonsey (a character I always felt was the true base of the show, a person the audience could relate to), both of whom are good, righteous guys who want to defend Ben now.

I was getting worried, because for awhile, it looked like Justin was getting all this help and Ben was getting none.

Dan, next week's preview has Iris continuing the same kind of talk with Norman, so I'm totally confused by this recent development.

I don't think Sofie is the next avatar. She's from the same generation as Ben. Her child on the other hand...

No shes not.

Management (avatar) -> Justin (treeman) -> Sophie (avatar)
Scutter (Treeman) -> Ben (avatar) -> ?

The thing is, what happens if Ben got Sophie pregnant, Sophie's opposite would be her own kid, therefore she would be the omega. Either that or scutter nailed sophie's mom, and ben did his own sister, which is a beautiful image...
 

Killthee

helped a brotha out on multiple separate occasions!
WOW

I'm fucking speechless after watching tonights episode!!! That was definetly the best episode so far.
 

Willco

Hollywood Square
So the TRUTH is OUT.

Sophie is Brother J's son! Iris wants to take down Justin! Hot lesbian sex! omg!

End game in two hours. Woo!
 

BuddyC

Member
So, two more episodes left until the end of the show, or the end of the season? Yes, I realize how foolish of a question that seems in relation to current events, but there's still a chance of a third season, maybe. Just seems to be ending far too soon :(

edit: Just saw Dan's post about the number of seasons Knauf has sketched out. Whoa.
 

Dan

No longer boycotting the Wolfenstein franchise
Ditto. Holy fucking shit! That episode was badass!

Justin is Sophie's father: confirmed! Iris watched while Justin raped Apollonia, wow.

Justin calls out Iris and Norman and laughs at their plotting. That dinner table scene was intense as hell. There was just so much tension on so many levels from all the fucked up relationships in that room.

Scudder unleashed the beast! Wowsers, that was a really great finish for him. Very nice to see him go absolutely crazy on Smith. Then he gets punked from behind by Brother Justin in an amazing surprise.

To think that people thought shit had hit the fan before, damn, this show is racing now! Next Sunday is way too far away.
 

trilobyte

Member
After such an amazing episode, it's sad to realize that this may be the last and final season

But these last episodes have been a rush! Amazing amazing stuff.

maybe this isn't the end? Maybe Ben and Justin are the beginning of the story...

There's just so many unanswered questions about the lineage and the purposes of the Children of Light and Dark.
 

Brian Fellows

Pete Carroll Owns Me
That was one badass episode.

Michael J. Anderson(Samson) deserves some recognition (or you know like an award nomination or something too since I dont think the emmy's have a "coolest midget" category) for being the best damn acting midget I've ever seen. I mean midgets normally give me the creeps but Samson is one of my favorite characters in any of HBOs shows. Which are filled with great characters all-around.

**EDIT**
When we were looking down the road from Scudder's POV from the truck I was really expecting Brother Justin to show up in the middle of the road. So to see him pop up from behind got me GOOD[/spoiler.]
 

Dan

No longer boycotting the Wolfenstein franchise
Okay, here's what Daniel Knauf has stated about the entire story, possible spoilers about whether the show has a future:
He has plans for six seasons, grouped as three "books" of two seasons each.

My comments about that:
I don't have a fucking clue about what that could mean. I really can't forsee where the show could go if (well, this much is guaranteed now basically) Ben and Justin meet. Sophie carries on the mantle, and goes ballistic when Ben murders her father and spiritual savior? I just don't know. I have to wonder if Knauf is just throwing fans off the trail or what. Four more seasons seems like a hell of a lot with the way the story is progressing. The only other thing I can think of is if Lodz somehow comes back and gets involved, which seems likely on some level after this episode. I don't know what he could do though, he was just a normal guy that received psychic powers from Scudder in exchange for his vision.
 
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