Maybe its me but for what these cards cost they don't offer that much improvement. If anything it makes me appreciate what Sony and Microsoft were able to do with the home consoles. I am not saying that the gpus are garbage but there are not some super big improvement over the best console graphics especially considering the cpu aspect as well.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Is it just me but after all the tech jargon and raw power numbers these new expensive graphics cards don't really push the envelope that much?
- Thread starter FMX
- Start date
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
By god, you might be onto something here.
I'm sorry
I'm sorry
Last edited:
mansoor1980
Gold Member
focus is now on AI upscaling and frame-gen
rofif
Can’t Git Gud
all of these cards are more/less the same.... seriously.
There is such a redundancy of gpus now.
There is like 10%-20% difference between most of them. Sometimes one wins, other time other wins.
5080 is like... a bit faster than 4080.. sometimes.
5070ti is like a 4080... sometimes... other times like 4070ti super.
5070 is like 4070ti super... but sometimes like a 3080ti
9070 xt is like 9070 which are both like 5070ti... but sometimes not.
There is such a redundancy of gpus now.
There is like 10%-20% difference between most of them. Sometimes one wins, other time other wins.
5080 is like... a bit faster than 4080.. sometimes.
5070ti is like a 4080... sometimes... other times like 4070ti super.
5070 is like 4070ti super... but sometimes like a 3080ti
9070 xt is like 9070 which are both like 5070ti... but sometimes not.
SweetTooth
Gold Member
Its diminishing returns, that's why I wish Sony just prolong PS5 life into 2030 then go all in with PS6. It will make the transition more meaningful and impactful.
"Perceived" Technology progress is very slow these days unlike the 90s
"Perceived" Technology progress is very slow these days unlike the 90s
Last edited:
Gaiff
SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
The RTX 50 series is definitely garbage. The power from the RTX 40 series has only increased by around 30-40% after 2 years, so no, OP isn't wrong in that these new GPUs really aren't doing much, especially the 5090 for its $2000 price tag.
Not compared to consoles though, they're a big improvements over them (at least, the high-end), especially the base ones.
Not compared to consoles though, they're a big improvements over them (at least, the high-end), especially the base ones.
Last edited:
hououinkyouma00
Member
This. Diminishing returns is at fault.
Looking at consoles is the most clear way as you have more define generations, but you can see it with PC as well.
If you look at gen to gen improvements, they get smaller and smaller graphically (I'll use PlayStation so I don't have to use dumbass naming conventions). PS1>PS2 was huge, and PS2>PS3 was also huge especially as people transitioned to HD LCD panels. Now look at PS3>PS4 which was still a big jump where you could go wow if not quite as big as the past jumps, but with PS4>PS5 it's much smaller especially when you factor in mid-gen refreshes. PS4 games were already great looking games generally speaking so the jump could only do too much.
It's why the focus was on framerates, and why companies like Nvidia/AMD are focusing on stuff like AI, upscaling, and fake frames. You only have so far to go before differences stop being noticeable.
Mister Wolf
Member
The cards are because we don't want to play those same games at a low resolution or low framerate. That's what it's always been about for the most part. Every now and then we get a tech advancement only available to PC. Right now it's pathtracing/full raytracing. Avowed and Silent Hill 2 look better and are less noisy with Hardware Lumen. Monster Hunter Wilds is only 1080p 60fps on the best console.
Last edited:
Crayon
Member
Maybe, idk just a theory here...
Maybe the high prices are balanced out by spec on games not creeping too fast due to the limited hardware performance. If not balanced out, significantly mitigated. Little less pain. Because the best thing going as of today is $600 and in the scheme of things that is only good because the market is fucked. It's still not cheap at all. Sure, it'll crush a ps5 pro, but at the end of the day it's playing the same games. No matter how big you spend on a gpu, it's not going to avail you of new games once it passes that base ps5 level and you can do that for $200.
In fact, $200 is pretty affordable if you just want to get your desired games running and aren't too picky. Ten years ago, a card comparable to a ps4 was closer to $100. But then again ps5 is a $100 more than ps4.
A lot of this perception of gpus rn gets skewed because there are really, really, fast ones out there. I think it leads to this belief that your pc has to absolutely bury a console to be worth building. It's just not true.
Maybe the high prices are balanced out by spec on games not creeping too fast due to the limited hardware performance. If not balanced out, significantly mitigated. Little less pain. Because the best thing going as of today is $600 and in the scheme of things that is only good because the market is fucked. It's still not cheap at all. Sure, it'll crush a ps5 pro, but at the end of the day it's playing the same games. No matter how big you spend on a gpu, it's not going to avail you of new games once it passes that base ps5 level and you can do that for $200.
In fact, $200 is pretty affordable if you just want to get your desired games running and aren't too picky. Ten years ago, a card comparable to a ps4 was closer to $100. But then again ps5 is a $100 more than ps4.
A lot of this perception of gpus rn gets skewed because there are really, really, fast ones out there. I think it leads to this belief that your pc has to absolutely bury a console to be worth building. It's just not true.
RetroGamingUK
Member
Let’s not forget the piss-poor optimisation of PC games.
PCMR in shambles.
PCMR in shambles.
Killjoy-NL
Member
That's why many prefer a €700 PS5 Pro over something like a $6000 5090.
owandeseis
Member
All these cards are supposed to deliver high FPS + great image quality at the same time.
Consoles were doing fine until 2023, but since then most of the demanding games have struggled at delivering both FPS+IQ, FF7 Rebirth, FF16, Wukong, SH2, STALKER 2, MH Wilds (even on a 5090 in this case tho), Star Wars, Avatar and a long etc so it's not really comparable.
Consoles were doing fine until 2023, but since then most of the demanding games have struggled at delivering both FPS+IQ, FF7 Rebirth, FF16, Wukong, SH2, STALKER 2, MH Wilds (even on a 5090 in this case tho), Star Wars, Avatar and a long etc so it's not really comparable.
N0S
Al Pachinko, Konami President
Wildebeest
Member
You still have to buy them to keep the dream alive because Digital Foundry said that when the real time ray tracing revolution is finally complete, we will be able to finally play games as fun as they were in 2005. Maybe in 2050 we will have a game as good as Half Life 2 if you keep buying all the 20,000 dollar nvidia cards it takes to get there.
Last edited:
rofif
Can’t Git Gud
The only problem I had was base ps5 was FSR2. That pixelated shit can go to hell.
FSR1 ? that's fine. It's just high quality upscaline like lanczos. but fsr2 always sucked hard. To the point, that I prefer 1080p with taa rather than 1080p fsr2 upscaled to 4k. yuck.
But other than that? I had 0 issues with ps5. Performance is fine, image quality is fine. Devs that struggled just suck balls.
FF16 looked amazing and played great for 30fps game. well done.
FF7 rebirth also but it's 30fps mode lacked motion blur and kinda sucked. and they fucked the performance mode.
ALAN wake 2 sucked on base ps5 and sucks on pro. They can't optimize for nothing.
So the only thing that pro needed was PSSR and it delivered it.
Last edited:
Magic Carpet
Gold Member
PC and PS6 games might look and play identical in a few years.
Edit-I think new hardware of any kind will require big bucks from a big company to secure big orders for the chips. It seems like the only way Apple gets these chips made at all is because they order millions at a time.
Edit-I think new hardware of any kind will require big bucks from a big company to secure big orders for the chips. It seems like the only way Apple gets these chips made at all is because they order millions at a time.
Last edited:
rofif
Can’t Git Gud
ps5 and pc games already to honestly. The difference is smaller than it ever was
Fess
Member
Once you start downplaying the tech jargon and raw power numbers you’ll get pushed into playing the settings menu game instead of the actual game.
I got cheap and settled with a 4080 Super in the living room, I wish I didn’t because 16GB VRAM isn’t enough and frame generation, while good, is often needed and with that comes latency and visual problems.
I got cheap and settled with a 4080 Super in the living room, I wish I didn’t because 16GB VRAM isn’t enough and frame generation, while good, is often needed and with that comes latency and visual problems.
Magic Carpet
Gold Member
I'm near the end of Indy Jones and the Great Circle and I still go into the settings menu to change things around.
MiguelItUp
Member
Yuuuup, this generation was never meant to be more than raytracing this, and raytracing that, basically. Well, and frame generation.
I really look forward to the next generation that actually ooo's and ahh's us. I really, really, REALLY miss that feeling. Be it graphics, game engines, physics, or all the above.
Gaiff
SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
You’ll be saying the exact same thing when next gen rolls around.
MiguelItUp
Member
Honestly, I'm not pessimistic at all about it, I just want good games, so if I get that, I'll be happy, lmao. I came to terms with that feeling being long gone a long time ago.
analog_future
Resident Crybaby
Fess
Member
I finished it at the year end. I read somewhere that they’ve patched in DLSS4 now. Is it any better regarding vram usage?
Tbh I would’ve upgraded to a 5090 if it was possible to buy them at msrp in a store, but the scalpers has ruined everything so I’m learning to accept to use the settings menu. It’s okay, just a bit annoying considering the money spent.
It depends on what you are looking for. You aren't going to see the leaps of yesteryears. All hardware is pretty similar these days. I am not looking at better graphics, but frame rates. I am running 4k at 60 to 120 fps on new games with ray tracing on my 5090. I am in love. It is so smooth. The next big leap needs to come from animation and how the characters interact with the environment. Graphics are so good, but at times the animations can diminish the quality of the graphics.
Danny Dudekisser
I paid good money for this Dynex!
rofif
Can’t Git Gud
yep.
I hope they will ignore new xbox console next year and don't release ps6 until like 2028 or so.
Elog
Member
You are right. In. my book there are three forces that coincide.
1) Diminishing returns on computational power (it is exponentially less impressive to the eye)
2) Fairly dramatic cost increase in silicon manufacturing
3) More and more focus on graphical assets on the game development side with standard engine development environments (=less optimised coding than before)
In total that equals fairly mediocre gains and expensive cards.
1) Diminishing returns on computational power (it is exponentially less impressive to the eye)
2) Fairly dramatic cost increase in silicon manufacturing
3) More and more focus on graphical assets on the game development side with standard engine development environments (=less optimised coding than before)
In total that equals fairly mediocre gains and expensive cards.
Loomy
Thinks Microaggressions are Real
The reason you're getting those numbers is because compromises have been made elsewhere. Like in environmental interactions/physics, etc.
Magic Carpet
Gold Member
Nope, Not at all. I have a RTX 4070 and had to set the memory to it's lowest. But with the new DLSS4 I could run full raytracing in most areas except for these jungle boat ride area's. I had to turn on frame gen to get it to 60fps with all bells and whistles.
Probably. I'd take lesser graphics and better physics, especially to keep the frame rates high.
TGO
Hype Train conductor. Works harder than it steams.
Developers mastered the art of baked lighting and reflections in the previous generation and now they trying to achieve the same but in dynamic real time whilst also giving in to gamers demand for 60fps or higher framerates
The jump is there but it's being dragged down by those goalposts.
Silent Hill 2 does look like a generational jump over the PS4 games.
but everything is being bogged down to keep Raytraying, and GI & 60fps as a standard.
This is why some Last Gen games looks fantastic still, it not diminishing returns, they are made differently and the new method and targets need a lot of power to achieve a similar effect.
Add in Upscaling which is required to achieve that with those real time effects and high framerates and you a grainer version of last but in real dynamic everything instead.
Nextgen should be a more noticeable jump.
In top of that...the talent isn't there anymore in most studios.
K KellyNole
Then you got your wish, but lesser graphics and no physics are the price you pay for your framerates.
Physics are costly and would be the first thing to cut to achieve higher framerates.
The jump is there but it's being dragged down by those goalposts.
Silent Hill 2 does look like a generational jump over the PS4 games.
but everything is being bogged down to keep Raytraying, and GI & 60fps as a standard.
This is why some Last Gen games looks fantastic still, it not diminishing returns, they are made differently and the new method and targets need a lot of power to achieve a similar effect.
Add in Upscaling which is required to achieve that with those real time effects and high framerates and you a grainer version of last but in real dynamic everything instead.
Nextgen should be a more noticeable jump.
In top of that...the talent isn't there anymore in most studios.
K KellyNole
Then you got your wish, but lesser graphics and no physics are the price you pay for your framerates.
Physics are costly and would be the first thing to cut to achieve higher framerates.
Last edited:
March Climber
Member
Same point, different thread. Very few games today come remotely close to this:
You shouldn't expect to see anything near it on a regular basis until the next console cycle sets the baseline.
You shouldn't expect to see anything near it on a regular basis until the next console cycle sets the baseline.
Boss Mog
Member
Yet there's plenty of clowns defending nVidia and framegen. While DLSS and FSR are acceptable uses for AI, framegen and particularly the new multi-framegen is not. It's garbage and nVidia are garbage for using it when they talk about the performance of the 50 series GPUs. Real gamers mostly reject streaming due to visual artifacts and high latency so there's no reason they would accept those same issues due to framegen, especially when they are far worse.
it's actually not focus on video games at all. rack mount GPUs for AI farms are the new mining rigs and that's where nvidia put all the GDDR7. that's why you can't buy a 5090 to play dumb ass video games.
ZehDon
Member
It just comes down to ease and cost of implementation. You can throw RTX5090 hardware at a developer, but it doesn't detract from the the sheer cost it takes to produce an engine, development pipeline, and assets that can actually use all of that fancy tech. At the end of the day, if developers can't use it, it doesn't matter - which is why the XSX's on paper power advantage never seems to matter.
Dacvak
No one shall be brought before our LORD David Bowie without the true and secret knowledge of the Photoshop. For in that time, so shall He appear.
Graphical improvements are logarithmic. The closer we get to realistic, lifelike visuals, the harder it becomes to make improvements.
We’re gonna be sitting in the uncanny valley for YEARS, if not another decade or so. (Unless we drastically alter the way we render graphics, like moving towards a realtime generative AI model or something.)
We’re gonna be sitting in the uncanny valley for YEARS, if not another decade or so. (Unless we drastically alter the way we render graphics, like moving towards a realtime generative AI model or something.)
Itchy Tickles
Member
You can have the most powerful and expensive GPU or console in the world, but it won't mean anything if devs either can't or just refuse to optimise their games. Consoles always have busted games, just like PC, but PC GPUs can somewhat brutefotce performance all while letting the devs off the hook. We are paying a premium, in part, to cover the talent or skill (or lack of) of the devs / port team etc
We have started seeing games eg MH Wilds, seemingly NEED a graphical extra meant for the end user as a necessity for the game to run at a basic frame rate. All the while still breaking if you move the damn camera. Plus it looks ugly and old, so that adds extra insult to things.
Prices / performance is also tied to nVidia being so far ahead and so rich, they are getting too comfortable promising the world, selling higher, but generally providing less. It's billionaires being the scum the are.
We have started seeing games eg MH Wilds, seemingly NEED a graphical extra meant for the end user as a necessity for the game to run at a basic frame rate. All the while still breaking if you move the damn camera. Plus it looks ugly and old, so that adds extra insult to things.
Prices / performance is also tied to nVidia being so far ahead and so rich, they are getting too comfortable promising the world, selling higher, but generally providing less. It's billionaires being the scum the are.