Is Mainstream Hatred Of Anime Growing?

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Step 1: Bring over JoJo's Bizarre Adventure
Step 2: Bring over Hunter X Hunter
Step 3: run censored versions at 8am
Step 4: run uncensored versions at 9pm
Step 5: run Sword Art Online at 10pm
Step 6: TOYS TOYS TOYS

Watch popularity be like 199X all over again.
 
Among gamers, I think one of the issues is that the decline in sales of JRPGs and some other genres have caused a lot of Japanese developers to pander to the Otaku crowd, introducing moe elements which have very little appeal to those genres' previous Western fan base. Japanese games have had fanservice forever (look at the bromides in Lunar Silver Star Story Complete), but it has become much more pervasive (and now features characters who look like pre-teens). When the latest Jr High clothes ripping simulator is announced for Vita, it gets blamed on anime because that is the art style.
 
For what it's worth #reclaimanimeavatars is a thing that recognizes this problem but yeah it's pretty terrible that it'd be needed in the first place.
 
CrazedProfessional said:
Step 1: Bring over JoJo's Bizarre Adventure
Step 2: Bring over Hunter X Hunter
Step 3: run censored versions at 8am
Step 4: run uncensored versions at 9pm
Step 5: run Sword Art Online at 10pm
Step 6: TOYS TOYS TOYS

Watch popularity be like 199X all over again.
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JoJo figures would be nice. Some of the ones I've seen on amazon look great
 
Aaron-Lagann said:
That's not exclusive to anime, though. I went to a comic book convention like ten years ago and met people for American comics, Star Wars and anything else that were just as obnoxious as the people you listed. People desperately want to feel like part of something even if they're not really that invested.

I really don't think that's how the mainstream views it, I think they view both as creepy basement dwelling weirdos, Star Wars has just been around a hell of a lot longer than creepy anime figures, so people are more used to it.
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I agree Star Wars / Star Trek have been around for a long time, so I think it's entered the mainstream. A more apt comparison might be Anime conventions today vs Star Trek conventions 25 years ago.

One might conclude from this in that in 25 years, anime would be more widely accepted. But I don't think so. Star Wars and Star Trek were centered about a particular set of shows or movies. Things changed (new shows, new movies, comics, etc) but it was all set in the same universe.

For example, I love cowboy bebop to the extent that I would love to go to a cowboy bebop convention. I would like to hear indepth thoughts about cowboy bebop, read literature about it, watch scenes in slow motion to analyze, etc. I might also be interested in a Gundam convention because the lore seems so expansive.

But I shudder at the thought of attending another "anime" convention. I'm glad they exist for those people who like them, but how many "SQUEEES" can one man take? The "cute" culture, when personified to extremes by individuals attracted to cute culture (both male and female), is partly what I think is being pushed back against. Because it's not something most people (myself included) can readily understand or appreciate, it comes off as anything but cute. It's to an extent that honestly I even feel embarrassed to admit that I've liked anime in the past.
 
Unlike comic books, star wars, etc, a lot of people who have never watched anime still associate it with cartoon porn, which gives it a different stigma than the former types of geekdom (which at worst are thought of as childish).
 
Things wrestling has over anime

  • Wrestling's demons are in the form of a 47 year libertarian, not the form of a 12 year old girl in tiny skirt who is actually 3000
 
Tertullian said:
Real talk: I'm watching the second season of Sword Art Online, and I think it's exemplifying a lot of the things that put the mass market off of anime, and often annoy me. Minor spoilers ahoy.
...
2. Terrible dialogue, full of non-sequiturs. There's one part where the aforementioned female lead and some extras are ambushing another group in the game, and they discover that the other group has brought along a dude with a minigun who can absolutely slaughter them. The female lead (a sniper) runs down to join her allies, and one of them says something like "we think they hired a bodyguard." She responds by saying something like "what?" in a way that suggests strongly that she has no idea what her ally is talking about.

It just doesn't make any sense. She already saw the guy with the minigun, who wasn't with the target group yesterday, and was obviously hired in order to turn the tables on her group. The logical response to her ally's comment would be "No shit, I saw," unless she has the short-term memory of a goldfish. It's just one small example, but anime is full of these moments in the dialogue, and I don't think bad translations are solely to blame. The dialogue is just badly written and disjointed.

There are also plenty of lines of the "explaining things that all the characters already know" and "recapping stuff that we just saw happen for no reason" variety.

...
There are definitely some anime series that I love a lot and will defend, despite having a certain undeniable weirdness to them and sharing in (or subverting) weird anime tropes: Death Note, Madoka Magicka, Gankutsuou, Steins;gate and such. But a staggering portion of series seem to share in the problems outlines above. Films seem to fare a little better, with their higher budgets. I'm working on finishing my trip through Makoto Shinkai's movies.
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Great post, touched upon a lot of topics. I think the terrible dialogue is a huge part of it as well. Anime generally feels "slow" to me. I'm not just talking about manga to anime adaptations where there's filler or DBZ "5 minutes" nonsense. Sometimes it feels characters need everything spelled out, because there's typically one "moe" or "baka" character who's so obtuse it breaks the suspension of disbelief. So the watcher gets to watch every line of dialogue twice.

And from my recollection, anime generally doesn't get the concept of "If it's what the audience expects, you don't need to air it." Maybe it's a cost cutting technique.

That being said, when anime steps away from that, it can be really enjoyable for me. I just feel like most shows can be "watch first two episodes, watch last two episodes" and you miss very little.
 
Honestly it always fascinates me that people put up the action genre whenever they talk about a return to the great days of anime.

I would say that 90% of the stuff I enjoyed from manga and anime don't feature action in a significant way.
 
strobogo said:
Things wrestling has over anime

  • Wrestling's demons are in the form of a 47 year libertarian, not the form of a 12 year old girl in tiny skirt who is actually 3000
Click to expand...

Now WWE just needs a 12 year old in a miniskirt and anime needs 47 year old libertarian demon man. That way both sides are happy!

Antiwhippy said:
Honestly it always fascinates me when people put up the action genre whenever they talk about a return to the great days of anime.

I would say that 90% of the stuff I enjoyed from manga and anime don't feature action in a significant way.
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I was heavily in the action camp my entire life, but this season has really turned my opinion around. My favorite show from this season is Monthly Girls' Nozaki-kun over Aldnoah Zero.

(Both are great and you should watch them if you haven't.)
 
Pepboy said:
And from my recollection, anime generally doesn't get the concept of "If it's what the audience expects, you don't need to air it." Maybe it's a cost cutting technique.
.
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There are still enough anime that arent like that.
The problem is, like I said, the ratio between those and the "ecchi"/"moe"/whatever shows is really low. And most of the time those anime are also more rare in an anime-season and often not that popular.
And then you have a lot of "fans" who dont want to watch an anime, because they dont like the "style" of it and would rather have a generic animestyle, than something that aims for something else.

If I recommend some anime like Kaiba or Tatami Galaxy a lot of people say "the style sucks!" by looking at some screenshots of those.
 
And this year, we'll be getting a new gundam show from Tomino.

Charles Foster Kane said:
When I see an anime character trying to be cutesy and shit, I feel like puking.
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x5+Yui+think+of+Hinata-senpai.jpg
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Chairmanchuck said:
There are still enough anime that arent like that.
The problem is, like I said, the ratio between those and the "ecchi"/"moe"/whatever shows is really low. And most of the time those anime are also more rare in an anime-season and often not that popular.
And then you have a lot of "fans" who dont want to watch an anime, because they dont like the "style" of it and would rather have a generic animestyle, than something that aims for something else.

If I recommend some anime like Kaiba or Tatami Galaxy a lot of people say "the style sucks!" by looking at some screenshots of those.
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I think that's the biggest problem here. With our tv, good shows are often held high with even generally unwatched (but great) shows getting the attention they deserve. Sure crap is popular as hell too, but that's common grounds. With anime the most popular shows are for the most part what people hate about the medium with what many consider good being less at the forefront.

There's always great stuff around, it's just not as well known, so the perception that it doesn't exist at all often comes up.
 
run HunterxHunter2011, akame ga kill, attack on titan, space battleship yamato 2199,
death note, legend of the galactic heros and kinos journey 24/7 and anime would be the coolest shit ever to everyone. But that would make too much sense :)
 
I'd like to think Giantbomb just rags on anime because of the rise it gets out of some people. Still a lame thing to do but whatever. I also wish they wouldn't talk about wrestling so much because it appears incredibly one-dimensional and just dull.

kurahador said:
And this year, we'll be getting a new gundam show from Tomino.
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Meh, Tomino's name being attached to a project means very little to me. He made Victory Gundam after all. He could make another Victory Gundam.
 
Anime is great. If you don't like that's fine but I feel you shouldn't shit on it just because you don't like it. Nobody forces people to watch it
 
I think the fanbase of anime is neither growing nor shrinking. Yeah Netflix and Hulu have made anime more on-demand and available to a bigger base but that is also a double-edged sword. Most of the stuff on Hulu and Netflix is that cutesy crap that turns a lot of people off, so some people might be pushed away after at least attempting to get into it.
 
The weird thing is that SF seems to be experiencing big ressurgence and anime is pretty much the only place where you can find a lot of it, at least in audiovideo format. TV budgets are still to small to properly handle the genre and anime goes around that.
 
People make equivalences all the time between Anime and any other television or media, but the truth is that the bulk of anime is more throwaway and trope-y than others and I got tired of wading through the otaku-pandering crap to find the gems as more and more got released here. The way people act even in "normal life settings" in anime (generally speaking) doesn't really ring true to life and just feels stupid.

And it's disturbing how it kind of infantilizes females. Even the stuff for women kind of limits the scopes of their lives to waiting for a cute boy to uguu at. The "strong" female characters in action anime and such ultimately serve as eye candy/male fantasy too. There's really nothing more annoying and sad to me than female otaku who adopt these personas modeled after what Japanese animators think women should be.

And I don't care about the examples that will obviously exist that don't fit this mold. I'm talking about the overall culture.
 
DSN2K said:
tell me gaf what's worse ? Anime Fans or Marvel Fans who have never read one comic.
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If you are a superhero comics fan, your taste is very limited. If you further limit it to one publisher I feel very sorry for you. Anime refers to a whole medium.
 
LaserBuddha said:
People make equivalences all the time between Anime and any other television or media, but the truth is that the bulk of anime is more throwaway and trope-y than others and I got tired of wading through the otaku-pandering crap to find the gems as more and more got released here. The way people act even in "normal life settings" in anime (generally speaking) doesn't really ring true to life and just feels stupid.

And it's kind of disturbing how it kind of infantilizes females. Even the stuff for women kind of limits the scopes of their lives to waiting for a cute boy to uguu at. The "strong" female characters in action anime and such ultimately serve as eye candy/male fantasy too. There's really nothing more annoying and sad to me than female otaku who adopt these personas modeled after what Japanese animators think women should be.

And I don't care about the examples that will obviously exist that don't fit this mold. I'm talking about the overall culture.
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That's fine, but I would still argue this is a problem with all mediums. I think the majority of all films have pandering crap. The majority of music is pandering crap. The majority of games etc. Why? Because it's what sells, and it's an established format to drive the fuck home to make $$$ (without little risk).

What I will agree with you on, is that Anime (and Otaku culture), has some pretty specific things to it that are pretty atrocious. But I just don't agree with you that somehow anime has a worse ratio of bad to good content. I see about as many great anime shows (that don't have all the stuff you said) as I do good drama/TV shows or films in a given year. It requires effort just like ANY medium, because finding the quality stuff isn't always going to be as visible (because that's not what is going to be massive/selling).
 
plasmawave said:
How can anyone say SAC is better than GITS 1995?
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I do . Because SAC bring more on the characters and the theme of GITS because they just have more time to devellop them.
Yes GITS(1995) might be more impressive on the technical detail.. but it term of immersing yourself within a world , SAC is much much better.

Gustav said:
My wife hates it because it's "about rape".
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Tell your wife to stop watching hentai , or watch them with your wife ( your choice )

CrazedProfessional said:
Step 1: Bring over JoJo's Bizarre Adventure
Step 2: Bring over Hunter X Hunter
Step 3: run censored versions at 8am
Step 4: run uncensored versions at 9pm
Step 5: run Sword Art Online at 10pm
Step 6: TOYS TOYS TOYS

Watch popularity be like 199X all over again.
Click to expand...

Exactly what's is happenning in FRANCE ( and manga and anime popularity is high )
 
AdrianWerner said:
What's more, when anime exploded in popularity in the West we suddenly got to experience cream of the crop from over decade of the medium. Now we're watching season by season
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This really makes sense. I hadn't thought of it like that. It's not fair to compare the best output from 10-20 years vs. the entire output from just a couple years or seasons. There really was a ton of garbage back then that most people have forgotten about over time.

On top of that, individual series tend to run for fewer episodes now, with one 12-13 episode season being more typical than before and I think there are more series running concurrently nowadays (I haven't done the math though), so there's a lot of churning going on. It's a lot easier to find something you wanted to see when you don't have to dig through all of that to keep up. I tend to watch more series after they've finished than when they're currently running because of that.
 
Azula said:
That's fine, but I would still argue this is a problem with all mediums. I think the majority of all films have pandering crap. The majority of music is pandering crap. The majority of games etc. Why? Because it's what sells, and it's an established format to drive the fuck home to make $$$ (without little risk).

What I will agree with you on, is that Anime (and Otaku culture), has some pretty specific things to it that are pretty atrocious. But I just don't agree with you that somehow anime has a worse ratio of bad to good. I see about as many great anime shows (that don't have all the stuff you said) as I do good drama/TV shows or films in a given year.
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I find that these disagreements about the overall quality hinge on your standards of quality or what kinds of tropes you enjoy or tolerate. I agree that it's a problem in all mediums (CSI? NCIS? Real Housewives?) but I just think it's disproportional in anime.

It would be fine if the most fundamental anime tropes weren't all obnoxious and juvenile. I don't want to write off another culture and I don't intend to, but even the cerebral or "deep" anime is like "babby's first philosophy" compared to western cerebral television and film. There are a few exceptions of course. When someone challenges me and says that its no worse in anime than anywhere else, and that I have a double standard, I an steadfast in disagreeing with that.

The anime boom caused a shift from bringing over only the most exciting and notable and high production value anime, to bringing over the "everyday" stuff that is trending in Japan. At the same time, there was a positive aspect in that it was no longer just the Manga Entertainment type of releases and hit more genres. But the floodgates were open for crap city. Things got translated simply because they were a big hit in Japan (which is what otaku were paying attention to), but that popularity in no way related to quality or originality. It satisfied the people who randomly shout Japanese phrases in public because it steeped them in more of the pop culture they adored, but everyone else is like "what the fuck do I do with this?".

Finally, anime was and still is too comfortable with the sexualization of children. I know that's simply a reflection of an aspect of their culture, but it's off-putting. A lot of the stuff supposedly free of that pedophilic subtext only seems to be free of it in comparison to other anime.
 
Shengar said:
I blame crap LNs continous adaptation while the good stuffs keep rotting.
I'm still bitter that there wouldn't be Baccano S2 or Spice and Wolf S3 ;___;
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Cheer Up , at least we had log horizon recently.

And i say this as someone who love the previous work of the guy ( maou maoyu yuusha ) even when the anime was kinda disapointing.

We also had Chaika last season.

GOOD LN are still being made in anime.
 
Tertullian said:
Real talk: I'm watching the second season of Sword Art Online, and I think it's exemplifying a lot of the things that put the mass market off of anime, and often annoy me. Minor spoilers ahoy.

Now, I loved and still love Sword Art Online's first 14 episodes. They form a coherent whole where the stakes are clear in every moment and the world feels real. But I hate everything after that. Here's some stuff that I find off-putting:

1. Fanservice. This new season takes place in a virtual reality video game which is grimmer and has a much more muted color palette than those featured in the previous story arcs. That could be an interesting choice. All the extras you see in the background wear pseudo-realistic combat gear, including the women.

The new female lead, though, does not. She wears shorts so short that they don't even cover her butt crack, and otherwise wildly impractical clothing. The "camera" loves to linger over her and emphasize this fact. The very first time we see her in-game character, there is a long shot that lovingly focuses on your attention on the outline of her genitalia clearly visible through her clothing, and then slowly pans up to the aforementioned butt crack.

This isn't some absurdly ecchi anime. This is Sword Art Online, one of the more mainstream offerings of the past few years. This is just one typical, representative example.

There are definitely some anime series that I love a lot and will defend, despite having a certain undeniable weirdness to them and sharing in (or subverting) weird anime tropes: Death Note, Madoka Magicka, Gankutsuou, Steins;gate and such. But a staggering portion of series seem to share in the problems outlines above. Films seem to fare a little better, with their higher budgets. I'm working on finishing my trip through Makoto Shinkai's movies.
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I agree that there's a growing numbers of shows that are adding needless fanservice.

I think stuff like Ikkitousen pushed the envelope ("We can get away with that?), but Queen's Blade in 2009 seems to have opened the floodgates.

That said, the most popular stuff - going by Crunchyroll's current list - still tends to be the same stuff anime has always put forward.

Sword Art Online - action fanservice
Naruto Shippuden - Shonen
One Piece - Shonen
Hunter x Hunter - Shonen
Fairy Tail - Shonen fanservice-lite
Irregular at Magic High School - Action
Aldnoah Zero - Sad Giant Robots
Haikyu - Shonen Sports
RWBY - What? The show by the Haloid dude from Rooster Teeth? Had no clue it was that popular.
Akame ga Kill! - Action fanservice
Ace of the Diamond - Shonen Sports
JoJo's Bizarre Adventure - JoJo's Bizarre Adventure
Rail Wars - Comedy fanservice
Baby Steps - Shonen Sports
Free - Lady fanservice sports!
Attack on Titan - Action

Still lots of useless fanservice - that's why i stopped watching Sword Art Online - but not as bad as it could be. There are a ton of ecchi and moe-heavy shows, but most of them don't really breakout in popularity. Shonen action still outperforms most of it.
 
LaserBuddha said:
I find that these disagreements about the overall quality hinge on your standards of quality or what kinds of tropes you enjoy or tolerate.
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Couldn't I say the same thing back to you? That your view that overall anime has more bad content then good depends entirely on your own subjective standards of quality?

Anyways, I agree with a lot of what your post says actually. And 99% of the tropes you've mentioned I do not like (despise), and yet I seem to find 10-15 shows a year that do not have them, and that I find high quality (granted I admit that is 100% subjective, you are right).

Guess we can't come to an agreement, is what it is. Although I do agree with you about the tropes that are specific to Anime/Otaku culture (which I did say was true in my post, that there are certain atrocious elements specific to this medium)...I still don't agree that the ratio of good to bad is any different than other mediums. But I can accept that we just don't agree here and move on.
 
I love anime but when 90% of the stuff that comes out is awful stuff, it's easy to get cynical. But that 10% is so fantastic it's easily worth diving in.
 
Azula said:
I still don't agree that the ratio of good to bad is any different than other mediums. But I can accept that we just don't agree here and move on.
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Maybe the ratio isnt that different, but I think the viewership might be different. The popular ones, at least in the west, are often one of the "same shit different color" ones.

I mean you can also see it in the series that get scanlated e.g.
You have like 100 Yaoi-chapters each day besides Shounen and series that are aimed for a more mature audience, that never get scanlated (or bought from a publisher).
While here in Germany you get about 10-15 new Yaoi-Manga from a publisher, you get maybe 1-2 titles aimed at a more mature audience.
 
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