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[DrROBschiz]

Smash 4 is more than a good enough replacement.

Playing melee is fine and all but it time to get back on the horse gents

Yall be living in the past

 

[aeolist]

Isn't Dota kinda of an example that goes against this? They lost most of the character rights in two and had to make their own characters?

the difference for dota is that people mostly weren't playing the wc3 mod for the characters, so they were free to change a lot of cosmetic stuff as long as the mechanics were moved over intact. a lot of the new shit was basically the same with new names anyway.

 

[PSqueak]

Isn't Dota kinda of an example that goes against this? They lost most of the character rights in two and had to make their own characters?

They lost the rights to the models, but didn't most heroes have original names? i recall many wc 3 mods did that, like Enfo's (which i played a lot more than the original DoTA), for example, had original names/characters for all the heroes even if they were all the regular WC3 models.

 

[Son Of D]

The same reason people who loved Street Fighter 3 want a new Street Fighter that plays like more like it.

Comparatively, this would be like if SF4 and SF5 were not really competitive at all.

Smash 4 is competitive though. Not as competitive as Melee but a lot more than Brawl.

A better comparison would be going from Tekken Tag Tournament (Melee) to Tekken 4 (Brawl) then to Tekken 5 (Smash 4... although I'm not sure where Tekken 5 stands up to TTT).

 

[Wavebossa]

It would basically have to be a PM without nintendo characters. If its not that, "that aint melee"

 

[Toxi]

Smash 4 is more than a good enough replacement.

Playing melee is fine and all but it time to get back on the horse gents

Yall be living in the past

Why do people give a shit about this?

I guess I should stop playing Super Metroid because it's over two decades old at this point.

People should play what they like, no matter how old it is.

 

[pantsmith]

Basically any time someone tries to enter the space you get a bunch of people calling it a clone or rip-off, no matter how closely or differently it plays. Even actual entries in the series are disregarded entirely. The "competitive" community around Smash just wants to keep playing Melee forever.

It's just not worth it.

 

[dlauv]

Smash 4 is competitive though. Not as competitive as Melee but a lot more than Brawl.

A better comparison would be going from Tekken Tag Tournament (Melee) to Tekken 4 (Brawl) then to Tekken 5 (Smash 4... although I'm not sure where Tekken 5 stands up to TTT).

Brawl was pretty competitive too, but it was mostly just jank spam. Not at all ideal competition.

 

[Wavebossa]

Smash 4 is more than a good enough replacement.

Playing melee is fine and all but it time to get back on the horse gents

Yall be living in the past

Smash 4 is closer to Melee than Brawl, but no, its not a replacement.

And living in the past? Lol wtf, didn't know video games had expiration dates.

 

[DrROBschiz]

Why do people give a shit about this?

I guess I should stop playing Super Metroid because it's over two decades old at this point.

People should play what they like, no matter how old it is.

I dont but that attitude of melee loyalists is shitting on smash 4

I love melee as much as I always have and after playing hundreds (maybe thousands) of smash 4 its just as good of a sequel that we could have hoped for

 

[Wikzo]

Not really trying to replace it, but TowerFall was created out of love of Smash and other couch games.

Oh, and there's also BaraBariBall.

 

[Nanashrew]

Well, for one it's missing a lot of modern features like online play, custom control schemes, and widescreen support. It also has pretty poor character balance where only about 10 of the two dozen characters regularly compete on the highest level as well as a poor selection of viable stages.

For the record, I think that PM addresses pretty much every outstanding issue with Melee and wish that more people took it seriously, but its mod status and Nintendo's draconian copyright policies are an understandable roadblock to its success. Despite this, I think the Nintendo franchise appeal that PM keeps would far outweigh any benefit they get from trying to recreate Smash from scratch.

PM always had a limit to how far it could go being a mod due to copyright policies with or without Nintendo as a sponsor though. PM is infringement, just something the company always turned a blind eye too. I imagine it would be the same exact scenario with any other company pertaining to console mods. To battle that infringement they would need to introduce new original characters and even replace much of the Nintendo and 3rd party cast to make it more derivative, but since it's Smash and the characters are very important to it, that's a no go.

 

[User 73706]

Well, for one it's missing a lot of modern features like online play, custom control schemes, and widescreen support. It also has pretty poor character balance where only about 10 of the two dozen characters regularly compete on the highest level as well as a poor selection of viable stages.

For the record, I think that PM addresses pretty much every outstanding issue with Melee and wish that more people took it seriously, but its mod status and Nintendo's draconian copyright policies are an understandable roadblock to its success. Despite this, I think the Nintendo franchise appeal that PM keeps would far outweigh any benefit they get from trying to recreate Smash from scratch.

Smash 4 covers pretty much every one of those complaints. The character balance in particular has been handled extremely well.

 

[Wavebossa]

I dont but that attitude of melee loyalists is shitting on smash 4

I love melee as much as I always have and after playing hundreds (maybe thousands) of smash 4 its just as good of a sequel that we could have hoped for

Let's not derail the thread. This isn't Smash 4 vs Melee.

The thread is about how come no one has really tried to make another melee outside PM.

And no, Smash 4 is not that much like melee.

 

[trickyhero]

Yeah PM is like a balanced melee, if only it was official. Kinda wish nintendo could pull a valve and make PM offical and sell it for like $15.

 

[Clefargle]

Special Smash in SSB4 with Fast and Heavy settings is basically the same thing but with improved hit detection and general sandbox mechanics. People that praise Melee as the be-all-end-all Smash title and that nothing's ever lived up to it since are ridiculous. I mean, if you want something that plays like Melee, play Melee.

You don't even need another mode. Custims and equip speed the pace up significantly and allow for new combo options and longer strings.

 

[Robert at Zeboyd Games]

I really liked the Naruto fighting game series that played like Smash Bros, but in 3D (Clash of Ninjas / Gekitou Ninja Taisen). 4 player free-for-all-combat and no moves are more complicated than Button+Direction. Tons of fun, but they don't make them anymore (they still make Naruto fighting games, they're just in a completely different style).

 

[Crankshaft]

Move over Smash Bros! - Onimusha Blade Warriors is coming to a PS2 near you!

 

[Toxi]

Special Smash in SSB4 with Fast and Heavy settings is basically the same thing but with improved hit detection and general sandbox mechanics.

Except the ledge grab mechanics.

And the air dodge mechanics.

And the movement mechanics.

And the hitstun mechanics.

And the rage mechanic.

And the mechanics of individual character moves like Fox's shine.

Actually, Smash 4 is not basically the same thing at all. It's a different game that plays differently and people will enjoy it differently. That's fine, but stop insisting it's the same thing as Melee just by adjusting a few knobs.

 

[DrROBschiz]

Let's not derail the thread. This isn't Smash 4 vs Melee.

The thread is about how come no one has really tried to make another melee outside PM.

And no, Smash 4 is not that much like melee.

Hmmmm

There are a couple similar games but they only exist in the indie space. Sportsfriends had one and there is a more recent 4 player one coming soon that seems very inspired by smash but I cant for the life of me remember what it was called

But yeah PM is the only game mod to attempt to capture what melee was and may be the only on unless the modders find a way to mod smash 4... sounds like a mountain of work

 

[dlauv]

Yeah PM is like a balanced melee, if only it was official. Kinda wish nintendo could pull a valve and make PM offical and sell it for like $15.

It's not.

Melee was kind of a happy mistake. The combos are organic.

PM was made by Melee fans, so the combos you get in it are pretty much intended by the devs in an attempt to emulate Melee, which ironically restrains creativity and reigns in the need for quick decision-making. They're almost dial-a-combos, which is a huge departure from what makes Melee different from the competition, besides character novelty and simplified controls.

Not saying it's bad or wouldn't be a good next step in the franchise, but it's not really the same.

 

[Karsticles]

why does it need replacing?

Online play? Better balance?

 

[Pompadour]

I think they would have more success getting the competitive community if Sakurai targeted them when designing a new game, like Capcom does with its fighters. It doesn't have to be exactly like Melee, just have enough of what they want to get more people to switch over.

 

[qko]

Rivals of Aethers?

Though I don't really know what makes something Melee instead of 4

Projectiles that stay in the environment? Not Melee at all!

Online play? Better balance?

Then you'd be gimping characters.

Needs more wavedashing and tripping and exploits and "Final Destination Fox only" mode.

/s

The Melee crowd is fickle, I don't think they themselves understand that what they want cannot be replicated and demand a new game with no changes at all. There is no reason to make a game in that case.

 

[likeGdid]

There was an attempt to make a Touhou Smash
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dMJvCkXndU

If I recall correctly they didn't get the proper permissions when trying to get crowdfunding and were forced to change its theme.

 

[ChronotriggerJM]

I don't even think it's the character recognition in smash that helps it sell, it's the craziness of it all. As far as I'm concerned anyway. I could care less about the large majority of the cast, whom I honestly think is mostly non-characters that became something simply because of the smash series.

Before Smash, who cared about Zelda as a character? Captain Falcon? Fox? Yeah you have a few of the characters that people actually played as (Samus, Link, Kirby, Mario, DK, etc etc.) But in the new games the cast is re-skins and non characters for the most part that are awesome because they're in smash, and not the other way around in my opinion.

Something like Playstation all stars could have been beyond anything in terms of character recognition, but the game didn't have any of the real silly soul that the Smash Series has, and I think that silly nature is what makes the game so entertaining. (Not to say Smash isn't ridiculously great for actual tournament style play, the controls are spot on and it's very technical).

 

[RadioJoNES64]

Ideally, the team behind Project M could launch a kickstarter and a smash-like with the fast game play of Melee with the balance and the competitively useful variety of characters of Smash 4 could exist, but as others have said the Melee fan base probably wouldn't support it.

 

[User 73706]

Honestly, I think the thing that blows my mind the most about Smash 4 that you can't really get a feel for unless you play it is the hitstun. At lower percentages you're still unaffected enough to keep fighting back and initiate pivots, but the amount that exists when you start taking enough damage gives you the ability to create actual combos and ensure KOs, whereas in Brawl it was low enough that you had a chance of surviving getting blown offscreen well into the hundreds, especially with all of the new recovery options (gliding with Meta Knight, ROB's up-special, etc.). It definitely feels more like Melee in that regard.

 

[Wavebossa]

There was an attempt to make a Touhou Smash
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dMJvCkXndU

If I recall correctly they didn't get the proper permissions when trying to get crowdfunding and were forced to change its theme.

A shame, it looks somewhat decent.

I mean the camera is pretty horrible, and the color schemes are jarring, and the character design is up to the player I guess (I have no desire to play as a maid), but other than that it looks like a good start.

 

[Wowfunhappy]

Project M? Its goal is more-or-less to replace/update Melee, no?

 

[trickyhero]

It's not.

Melee was kind of a happy mistake. The combos are organic.

PM was made by Melee fans, so the combos you get in it are pretty much intended by the devs in an attempt to emulate Melee, which ironically restrains creativity and reigns in the need for quick decision-making. They're almost dial-a-combos, which is a huge departure from what makes Melee different from the competition, besides character novelty and simplified controls.

Not saying it's bad or wouldn't be a good next step in the franchise, but it's not really the same.

I guess you can say that. I think it's cool that it's a smash made by the fans for the fans and so I guess that might happen.

 

[JCX]

Sony should've taken a good, good look at Melee before deciding to do what they did. If they picked up the Project M team maybe things would've turned out well. But they screwed up their chance.

They could turn it around with a sequel, that's what Nintendo did between 64 and Melee. Sony should just make a shameless melee clone to steal that base away.

 

[Alchemy]

The question isn't about replacing Smash as a four play couch party game, but about trying to make a modern competitive fighting game with competitive Melee style game mechanics. Stuff like TowerFall isn't anywhere close to being that.

Competitive Melee is a decent draw in terms of viewership on Twitch, so I do wonder why no one really takes a stab about trying to steal its thunder. While the community is pretty dedicated, if a game actually made a serious (and well executed) attempt at making a Melee style competitive game but on modern consoles I could see it gaining a good amount of traction in the FGC. Project M is cool, but the community is going to be forever limited by the fact that it is a mod of a console game. Really needs a stand alone version to succeed.

And while Smash 4 is a good game, it isn't the same thing as Melee. Just they're both Smash games doesn't mean 4 somehow replaces Melee.

 

[collige]

Smash 4 covers pretty much every one of those complaints. The character balance in particular has been handled extremely well.

Except for the fact that Smash 4 is totally different from Melee. This thread is about replacements for SSBM and at this point I think it's pretty clear that Smah 4 won't be that game.

PM always had a limit to how far it could go being a mod due to copyright policies with or without Nintendo as a sponsor though. PM is infringement, just something the company always turned a blind eye too. I imagine it would be the same exact scenario with any other company pertaining to console mods. To battle that infringement they would need to introduce new original characters and even replace much of the Nintendo and 3rd party cast to make it more derivative, but since it's Smash and the characters are very important to it, that's a no go.

That was pretty much my point. PM is held back by being a mod, but I would guess that it's still more popular than whatever their original effort could be. For what it's worth though, I remember reading that it would be possible to create a 100% legal version of PM, that didn't include any copyrighted assets, but you'd have to lose out on a lot of the newer features and eye candy. The dream for me is that the PM team (or pros in general) get consulted for Smash 5 or that Nintendo releases an HD remaster for Melee with quality of life updates, but unfortunately neither of those are gonna happen.

 

[Floridian]

Developers tried all right.

 

[Wavebossa]

Project M?

Reread OP, I think he/she means a standalone game possibly outside of the Nintendo brand

 

[Fudgepuppy]

Project M?

PM is only "easily available" in America and is also not allowed on any bigger tournaments where Nintendo might be present (Apex for an example), because of this, it's not an ideal game to focus on.

 

[InfiniteCombo]

Someone should please explain this to me. Why is the Melee community so opposed to change?

My only experience comes from the Capcom side of things. Sure, they had Super Turbo. And they still have Super Turbo. That game is very popular, and continues to be so over 20 years after its initial release, bugs/glitches/imbalances and all. But that didn't prevent the community from playing Third Strike, or Capcom vs SNK 2, or any of the Street Fighter IV iterations, in a seriously competitive manner as well.

As a matter of fact, I like what the Capcom FGC does: they move on to a new competitive game, and feature that new game as the main event. However, they still keep the strategic and emotional ties to Super Turbo by featuring Super Turbo as a side tournament, so that Super Turbo fans get what they want. But they're not, I guess, stuck on Super Turbo like the Smash community seems to be stuck on Melee.

The SNK community seems to follow in the same manner. Sure, KoF 98 and 2k2 are darlings of the community, but people playing in tournaments in the year 2015 seem to be focused on XIII.

I'm not cognizant of the attitudes/preferences of the Smash community, which is why I'm asking the question.

 

[Pappasman]

In really don't get why so many people gripe about the community that plays melee. There is no other game like it, its sequels removed much of the depth and complexity, and its meta is never completely locked.

Its not that the Melee community "doesn't want to try new things". Its that none of the new things has ever been on its level or above. Why would you move to a new game if you don't like it as much? "Moving on" is such a random BS argument.

Idk why people keep talking about exploits. There are no exploits or gltiches in playing melee at a high level.

Well, for one it's missing a lot of modern features like online play, custom control schemes, and widescreen support. It also has pretty poor character balance where only about 10 of the two dozen characters regularly compete on the highest level as well as a poor selection of viable stages.

If you think that's bad balance you must not have much experience with fighting games. I actually think Melee has one of the better/more interesting balances of all the FGs I've played. Sure Fox and Falco are the best, but they also get punished extremely hard by most characters in the cast. Also having about 11 or 12 tournament viable characters out of 24 is a pretty great ratio, especially for a game that's been out for 14 years.

Special Smash in SSB4 with Fast and Heavy settings is basically the same thing but with improved hit detection and general sandbox mechanics. People that praise Melee as the be-all-end-all Smash title and that nothing's ever lived up to it since are ridiculous. I mean, if you want something that plays like Melee, play Melee.

lmao

 

[Chastten]

The only way to do that is by taking Melee, upressing it to 1080p and sell it as a new game.

Any kind of change and people will immediatly disregard it as 'not as good as melee'

 

[pizzacat]

Brawlhalla tried to do something there but the game looks like literal shit

 

[Wavebossa]

Ideally, the team behind Project M could launch a kickstarter and a smash-like with the fast game play of Melee with the balance and the competitively useful variety of characters of Smash 4 could exist, but as others have said the Melee fan base probably wouldn't support it.

Based on what? People assume that the melee fan base only plays Melee. They are fighting game fans and quite a few play other games as well.

 

[herod]

Did I miss someone solving the Internet latency problem that subsequent titles have had to work around?

 

[Wavebossa]

Someone should please explain this to me. Why is the Melee community so opposed to change?

My only experience comes from the Capcom side of things. Sure, they had Super Turbo. And they still have Super Turbo. That game is very popular, and continues to be so over 20 years after its initial release, bugs/glitches/imbalances and all. But that didn't prevent the community from playing Third Strike, or Capcom vs SNK 2, or any of the Street Fighter IV iterations, in a seriously competitive manner as well.

As a matter of fact, I like what the Capcom FGC does: they move on to a new competitive game, and feature that new game as the main event. However, they still keep the strategic and emotional ties to Super Turbo by featuring Super Turbo as a side tournament, so that Super Turbo fans get what they want. But they're not, I guess, stuck on Super Turbo like the Smash community seems to be stuck on Melee.

The SNK community seems to follow in the same manner. Sure, KoF 98 and 2k2 are darlings of the community, but people playing in tournaments in the year 2015 seem to be focused on XIII.

I'm not cognizant of the attitudes/preferences of the Smash community, which is why I'm asking the question.

You should go play melee, and then go try to find another game that plays like melee. Then your question will be answered.

-I still play MKWii because no other Mario Karts play like it
-My little brothers still play Double Dash because no other mario karts play like it
-I still play Yoshi Island because no other games play like it (yoshi story is farrr too slow)

etc etc etc

 

[Nanashrew]

You should go play melee, and then go try to find another game that plays like melee. Then your question will be answered.

I still play MKWii because no other Mario Karts play like it
My little brothers still play Double Dash because no other mario karts play like it
I still play Yoshi Island because no other games play like it (yoshi story is farrr too slow)

etc etc etc

Pretty much this. I love Double Dash and still enjoy it cause there's nothing like it.

 

[User 73706]

Except the ledge grab mechanics.

And the air dodge mechanics.

And the movement mechanics.

And the hitstun mechanics.

And the rage mechanic.

And the mechanics of individual character moves like Fox's shine.

Actually, Smash 4 is not basically the same thing at all. It's a different game that plays differently and people will enjoy it differently. That's fine, but stop insisting it's the same thing as Melee just by adjusting a few knobs.

What I don't understand with Melee stans is why everyone keeps asking for "Melee but better," but then when deliberate changes performed thanks to massive amounts of statistics and experience are added in to refine the game, there's such a vehement dismissal of them. Smash 4 feels - to me, at least - like the game that Sakurai's actually been trying to make for the past fifteen years. Similarly to Pokemon, Smash seems to be operating on a cycle of "define and refine" with every title: obviously SSB laid the groundwork for Nintendo characters beating eachother up and laid out mechanics with the various special moves, while Melee was more about expanding the roster, attempting to flesh out the mechanics thanks to the improvements in hardware, etc. Brawl was a pretty big deviation from Melee and attempted to "ground" the concepts of certain characters even if they already had a different identity outside of Smash Bros.: see Bowser remaining more of a kaiju juggernaut than a weird, English-fluent kingpin dad like he is in the actual Mario games, Ganondorf remaining a bulkier clone of Captain Falcon despite having a much larger array of games to pull movesets from, and so on. We see another entry in the series, SSB4, coming in to refine those concepts without completely redefining who those characters are in-universe: Ganondorf has some changes made to him (improved hitbox on downtilt, always winning with Flame Choke suicides, removing the ability to thunderstomp) but is still discernibly Brawl Ganondorf. That being said, the changes are enough to make him feasibly effective as a fighter, and while his movement options aren't perfect, he doesn't feel outright bolted down to the stage like he did in Brawl.

Melee seems to share a lot of common ground with games like Halo 2 in that it featured quite a bit of early installment weirdness but still had a modicum of design elements that would go on to define the series, some very unintentional sandbox elements that were popularized despite being glitches, and so on. What the fans want doesn't always correlate to what the developer intended, and it shouldn't have to be. Smash 4 overall seems like something both the general Smash community and Sakurai were highly satisfied with, and I can't blame them. If you want each of those mechanics you listed working in a modern game, the Melee community has already made leaps and bounds to make it possible to get running in a competitive, tournament-style environment. I just don't see why it's hard for Melee purists to see why Sakurai isn't making the new iterations Melee 2: Melee Harder; it had several issues that he wasn't happy with so he moved on, made some mistakes with Brawl and even Smash 4 (albeit to a much lesser degree), and developed something he was more pleased with.

 

[ChronotriggerJM]

You should go play melee, and then go try to find another game that plays like melee. Then your question will be answered.

-I still play MKWii because no other Mario Karts play like it
-My little brothers still play Double Dash because no other mario karts play like it
-I still play Yoshi Island because no other games play like it (yoshi story is farrr too slow)

etc etc etc

I imagine it would be an absurd amount of work, but I'd love if they included a "melee mode" option, like the games with the "turbo mode" would do. Where it could just use the same characters with the old physics handling. Obviously I'm oversimplifying, but something like that could be really awesome lol.

 

[mrlion]

Melee is like CS1.6 ... no matter what updates, revamps, or sequels come, it's not 1.6 so it doesn't matter.

Well I wouldn't compare it to that because everyone moved to CS GO eventually.

 

[stargateheaven]

Playstation All-Stars kind of tried...it was an OK effort?

Their problem was they were called a "smash clone" and then when the game wasn't a smash clone people complained.
it was a lose-lose situation.

i assume the same for every other company trying to copy it.

 

[Pappasman]

What I don't understand with Melee stans is why everyone keeps asking for "Melee but better, .......... I just don't see why it's hard for Melee purists to see why Sakurai isn't making the new iterations Melee 2: Melee Harder; it had several issues that he wasn't happy with so he moved on, made some mistakes with Brawl and even Smash 4 (albeit to a much lesser degree), and developed something he was more pleased with.

Nobody is really doing this anymore though. At this point pretty much everyone has realized that its not going to happen. I haven't seen a desire for Melee 2: Melee Harder in a long time. I think most people at this point just want to keep playing the game they like with other people who like it too.