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[ianp622]

Those are common traits of people, not just those with explicit religious beliefs.

Not necessarily. I'm not afraid of death even if I don't believe in an afterlife. I know that I don't really matter in the universe. I accept that I am merely a temporary arrangement of atoms that believes it has free will and a "mind". I don't have a problem with it. I'm not afraid of being alone because I create my own strength.

But even if it were common, the difference is that religious people use their religion to address these traits. Atheists just have to...

 

[MisterAnderson]

Humanity still has a long way to go. United States in particular it would seem.

 

[StoOgE]

I'll take my milk in a carton with a side of Jesus thank you.

 

[Branduil]

Not necessarily. I'm not afraid of death even if I don't believe in an afterlife. I know that I don't really matter in the universe. I accept that I am merely a temporary arrangement of atoms that believes it has free will and a "mind". I don't have a problem with it. I'm not afraid of being alone because I create my own strength.

But even if it were common, the difference is that religious people use their religion to address these traits. Atheists just have to...

Judging by GAF, I'm not sure atheists do a good job of "dealing with it." A large number of them seem to hold a latent bitterness towards "religion" to the point of irrationality.

Also, what does "create my own strength" mean?

 

[Atrus]

Thanks Mustafa Kemal and the Arabs for making Religions look bad for future Turkish generation. :|

Right... they make religions look bad. I forget, which primitive country recently needed a presidential pardon for a woman who was sentenced to death after being in jail for 1.5 year for blasphemy? An accusation that started because some people wouldn't drink from a bowl touched by those not of their religion.

 

[Joel Was Right]

Wouldnt lump it all that clean cut. Europe has quite the issue with immigration in most places

Fixed

 

[ianp622]

Judging by GAF, I'm not sure atheists do a good job of "dealing with it." A large number of them seem to hold a latent bitterness towards "religion" to the point of irrationality.

Also, what does "create my own strength" mean?

We hold a bitterness towards religion when it promotes irrational thinking, retards scientific progress and infringes on human rights. Which is common.

It means I don't appeal to unseen beings to help me through tough decisions or issues in life. I am at ease with the possibility of failure or making mistakes, and I accept the consequences of my decisions.

 

[Zapages]

Right... they make religions look bad. I forget, which primitive country recently needed a presidential pardon for a woman who was sentenced to death after being in jail for 1.5 year for blasphemy? An accusation that started because some people wouldn't drink from a bowl touched by those not of their religion.

The blame lies with the culture and lack of education not the religion!!! Please stop making religion the scape goat. :|

 

[Fuzzy]

I'll take my milk in a carton with a side of Jesus thank you.

I would love to see a version of your avatar with just the first three images then shades come down with "deal with it".

 

[Atrus]

The blame lies with the culture and lack of education not the religion!!! Please stop making religion the scape goat. :|

Hard to make a case for that when said religion inherently promotes militarism, bigotry, misogyny, and murder.

If anything, I would say that such actions are precisely the result of having people living in modernity follow an ideology created by primitive, warmongering, desert tribals based on even older mythology of similar folk.

 

[gutter_trash]

religious leaders who distort and manipulate the masses are part of the problem which makes religion negative

spin the goodness of religion anyway you want.... the religious leaders end up turning it into shit and ruined it for everyone

the worst is when populist sheep follow the words of a bad religious leader...

thank God that Canada is more secular than the US

 

[Monocle]

The blame lies with the culture and lack of education not the religion!!! Please stop making religion the scape goat. :|

Religion thrives on ignorance and misogyny, as every historically literate person is aware. It's not scapegoating, it's a statement of fact. If religious people aren't comfortable with this, they should strive to accelerate the modernization of their institutions by advocating locally, within their faith communities, for scientific advancement, improved education (including study of the major religions to promote tolerance), gay rights and equal treatment of women worldwide.

Also: Hitchens vs. Blair...talk about a clash of the titans. I've been looking forward to this debate for months.

 

[Zapages]

Historically speaking most religious people were the ones who came up with the scientific discovery.

Gregor Mendel anyone.

 

[gutter_trash]

Historically speaking most religious people were the ones who came up with the scientific discovery.

Gregor Mendel anyone.

we are in 2010

 

[Monocle]

Historically speaking most religious people were the ones who came up with the scientific discovery.

Gregor Mendel anyone.

That's because, historically speaking, religious institutions withheld education from the masses. For centuries the only feasible way to access literature if you lived in western Europe was to join a monastery. Oh, and good luck publishing your discoveries if they're found to be "heretical."

 

[Imm0rt4l]

"Religion" is not a group. It means about as much as asking "are human beings a force for good?"

That's not really a good analogy at all.

 

[antonz]

we are in 2010

In the modern day science progresses just fine too. I dont hear of widespread persecution in science. Narrowminded people that complain about aspects of science sure but science is hardly being held up

 

[Monocle]

In the modern day science progresses just fine too. I dont hear of widespread persecution in science. Narrowminded people that complain about aspects of science sure but science is hardly being held up

You haven't heard of the evolution/creationism controversy? You haven't heard of the religious objections to stem cell research? These aren't isolated problems. By questioning demonizing well-established theories and tremendously promising medical research, religious conservatives are attacking the scientific method itself.

 

[Simon Belmont]

Historically speaking most religious people were the ones who came up with the scientific discovery.

Gregor Mendel anyone.

For every Mendel you find, I'll find you a Galileo.

 

[antonz]

You haven't heard of the evolution/creationism controversy? You haven't heard of the religious rejections to stem cell research? These aren't isolated problems. By questioning well-established theories and tremendously promising research, religious conservatives are attacking the scientific method itself.

Ethics issues are ethics issues. By that logic no one should complain about the stuff the Nazis were trying to do since afterall it was for the betterment of mankind.

Standing by ethics concerns have led to major Stem Cell advances in regards to creating a limitless supply of stem cells that are identical to embryonic without the need of embryos.

The religious opposition has always been to embryonic research not stem cells itself.

Rejecting Evolution while downright stupid does little in the long term as far as harm. Science will always been pursued by those who care about science and those who dont will always go bah humbug.

 

[starsky]

Australia, fuck yeah!

 

[disappeared]

god who?

 

[Lard]

Don't often say it lately, but proud to be Canadian! \(^^)/

 

[rpmurphy]

You haven't heard of the evolution/creationism controversy? You haven't heard of the religious objections to stem cell research? These aren't isolated problems. By questioning well-established theories and tremendously promising medical research, religious conservatives are attacking the scientific method itself.

Aside from those two topics of biological-related research, what other fields of science are they attacking? You make it sound like it's an epidemic across all scientific fields. Animal rights activists protest against using animal testing for scientific research.

Some people have done horrific things in the name of advancing science, particularly in medical science. The pursuit of science isn't a sacred cow; people can have criticisms of the methodology.

 

[Draft]

It's pretty clear to me at this point that there are many good Religious people, but the three major western religions of Christianity, Judaism and Islam are controlled by corrupt and possibly evil organizations.

 

[Yoshiya]

Australia, fuck yeah!

Hey, the UK is still slimmer than us. This is causing me major insecurity issues right now. We need to knock off 4% immediately.

And I don't get this attempt to dissociate religion and culture. In such theocracies (ie. Iran) the two are so closely intertwined that effective distinction is impossible. No, of course it is untrue to state that all those who follow Islam are misogynistic, but it is a very decentralised religion and clearly in many cases as it exists today it is absolutely misogynistic and oppressive.

You can state your interpretation of the faith is liberal and egalitarian, but you can't outright deny what others wholeheartedly believe.

 

[Zapages]

For every Mendel you find, I'll find you a Galileo.

All I am saying there are scientists that do research and are religious. While there are scientists that are athiests or not religious. It does not make the non religious people better scientists.

As in the Holy Quran, to reach God it is through knowledge. http://www.ezsoftech.com/akram/knowledge.asp

 

[Simon Belmont]

All I am saying there are scientists that do research and are religious. While there are scientists that are athiests or not religious. It does not make the non religious people better scientists.

As in the Holy Quran, to reach God it is through knowledge. http://www.ezsoftech.com/akram/knowledge.asp

There are many, many great people out there who are religious. As organizations though, most Religions are pretty much indefensible.

 

[Gaborn]

Religion has always been a tool that allowed people to grok the world around them. I think like the abacus, or the sun dial, or many other tools it's usefulness in that capacity has faded as far as science goes, but it was a major driving force in people's lives for a good long time. Of course, the corollary of that is that it has also led to many of the WORST moments in human history. Whether you're talking about the ritual sacrifices of the Aztecs to Huitzilopochtli, or the brutality of the crusades, or the modern example of the terrorist attacks of 9/11.

I think religion has basically been a force for good for most people because for most they found a road map of how to live your life well, and generally it would be liberally peppered with concepts such as caring for the poor, kindness, love, (some religions weren't quite as interested in those concepts of course) and many other good qualities, along with a series of injunctions and prohibitions against concepts that often seem arbitrary and incoherent in modern societies. And yet, those belief systems, despite apparent structural flaws when held up against modern moral codes generally saw societies that were quite prosperous and stable in their day. I think it's becoming increasingly anachronistic but I'm not going to deny the fact that religiosity has generally done a good job in serving humanity well.

 

[kinggroin]

There are many, many great people out there who are religious. As organizations though, most Religions are pretty much indefensible.

So religion is fine, but religious organization not so much? What's the distinction?

That's a serious question.

 

[BladeWorker]

I'd like to know how the poll was written, please. From the sounds of it, it was written as a media poll, not a thought piece.

 

[trinest]

If its used for Good its just an excuse for good deeds.

 

[Monocle]

Ethics issues are ethics issues. By that logic no one should complain about the stuff the Nazis were trying to do since afterall it was for the betterment of mankind.

You're going to have to elaborate on this for me. You can't be saying what I think you're saying.

Standing by ethics concerns have led to major Stem Cell advances in regards to creating a limitless supply of stem cells that are identical to embryonic without the need of embryos.

The religious opposition has always been to embryonic research not stem cells itself.

The ethical argument is, for the most part, obscurantist nonsense. Stem cells could revolutionize medicine. The extraordinary potential of this research to save and improve existing lives far outweighs the emotional appeals of the scientifically ignorant. If killing a "potential person" is tantamount to murder, as some argue, the majority of people reading these words have committed genocide by masturbating or using birth control. In any case, abortions are performed practically everywhere regardless of their legal status. Why let otherwise useless biological material go to waste?

Rejecting Evolution while downright stupid does little in the way of harming science.

Rejecting evolution harms science by undermining education, to the detriment of would-be scientists and future generations broadly. It also poisons the well of public opinion, making it more difficult for researchers to acquire funding for new projects and politicians to enact pro-science (and not infrequently, pro-education) legislation.

All I am saying there are scientists that do research and are religious. While there are scientists that are athiests or not religious. It does not make the non religious people better scientists.

As in the Holy Quran, to reach God it is through knowledge. http://www.ezsoftech.com/akram/knowledge.asp

You don't recognize how a predisposition to irrationality, or how subscribing to irrational propositions, could have adverse effects on a scientist?

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

Religion is for people that need others to think for them.

All I am saying there are scientists that do research and are religious. While there are scientists that are athiests or not religious. It does not make the non religious people better scientists.

As in the Holy Quran, to reach God it is through knowledge. http://www.ezsoftech.com/akram/knowledge.asp

But yet scientific progress was one of the things suppressed by Islamic leaders centuries ago which is why most Muslim countries are so backwards compared to the rest of the world.

 

[Blair]

Tony is a beast when it comes to public speaking, but he will be no match for the seasoned veteran Hitchens. Should be a good debate.

 

[gkryhewy]

Nice to see USA right up there with Saudi Arabia.

To be fair, though, if there was a poll of only the developed portions of the US, the results would probably be closer to the other advanced nations.

 

[Yoshiya]

I think it's becoming increasingly anachronistic but I'm not going to deny the fact that religiosity has generally done a good job in serving humanity well.

Having the threat of divine retribution and eternal punishment over people is a good way to promote cultural uniformity and the formation of stable power structures. As a counter force to the anarchic pursuit of individual interest I guess it can be viewed as a force for good across the ages.

Though now of course we have the bizarre mixture of the Christian far right advocating both theocratic social policy and their idea of 'personal freedom' (ie. small government, unregulated economy). Just another contradiction the 'Palinists' don't seem quite sharp enough to notice.

 

[Simon Belmont]

So religion is fine, but religious organization not so much? What's the distinction?

That's a serious question.

I didn't say religion is fine. I said good people can be religious if they can stand the cognitive dissonance of only paying attention to the good stuff in the bible. As an organization, the Vatican denies birth control (and more crucially, protection from infectious disease) to people who could use it (meanwhile it's apparenty OK for male prostitutes to use it), sheltering child abusers, opposing gay rights, yadda yadda yadda.

I'm saying someone isn't a bad person just because they're religious, but religion is inherently bad. Love the sinner, hate the sin sort of thing.

 

[FunkyMunkey]

I love these kind of topics, if only for the sight of seeing droves upon droves of sheep label other people as sheep. :lol

Also, not only bunching all of religion into one category, but being aware and okay with it, even if it goes against the scientific process(which gaf is full of psuedo-experts on apparently).

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

Tony is a beast when it comes to public speaking, but he will be no match for the seasoned veteran Hitchens. Should be a good debate.

I've always gotten the feeling Blair is a genuine sociopath due to the way he cultivated a false persona to get the general public to vote for him and how he kept at it for years afterwards (downplaying his catholicism in a traditionally protestant country until he left office). You might say all politicians do this but the ease in which Blair lies is downright creepy.

I love these kind of topics, if only for the sight of seeing droves upon droves of sheep label other people as sheep. :lol

Also, not only bunching all of religion into one category, but being aware and okay with it, even if it goes against the scientific process(which gaf is full of psuedo-experts on apparently).

So you're judging entire groups of people for being too judgmental?

 

[Monocle]

I love these kind of topics, if only for the sight of seeing droves upon droves of sheep label other people as sheep. :lol

Also, not only bunching all of religion into one category, but being aware and okay with it, even if it goes against the scientific process(which gaf is full of psuedo-experts on apparently).

 

[Gaborn]

Having the threat of divine retribution and eternal punishment over people is a good way to promote cultural uniformity and the formation of stable power structures. As a counter force to the anarchic pursuit of individual interest I guess it can be viewed as a force for good across the ages.

Though now of course we have the bizarre mixture of the Christian far right advocating both theocratic social policy and their idea of 'personal freedom' (ie. small government, unregulated economy). Just another contradiction the 'Palinists' don't seem quite sharp enough to notice.

I think this is more or less right, historically religion was a good thing, currently it's (at least, the version espoused by some) doing a lot less good. I think in general though that's because religiosity and power have often mixed very poorly. Religion, it seems to me, does better when it's a personal device of the people of an area, rather than a theocratic government, or even a particularly religious government.

Look at imperial Japan for example, or Kim Jong Il today in North (sorry, "Best") Korea. In each case their population is brainwashed constantly with the glory and deification of the leadership, that can be considered analogous to the divinely inspired rule of kings as well as the power of Popes to call for Crusades, and in the name of each terrible things have happened.

 

[FunkyMunkey]

Exactly my point.

So you're judging entire groups of people for being too judgmental?

Not really, just citing that those who mindlessly bash all of religion in comedic, one-liners, do so just as such, mindlessly. Just as those who lump any large and widely varying group of people into one category for the sake of belittling.

And it's ironic, because many times for those who oversimplify the entirety of religion for "analytical" thought, they go against the meaning of scientific method(gaf bloodstream). Omitting a hefty portion of 'population' in data set and focusing on extremes, just to come up with a quick/easy conclusion regarding the entire population, is nonsensical.

The person who said this poll is too broad nailed it. It needs specification. I'm excited to watch that debate, though. I hope it's not too lengthy.

 

[Yoshiya]

Look at imperial Japan for example, or Kim Jong Il today in North (sorry, "Best") Korea. In each case their population is brainwashed constantly with the glory and deification of the leadership, that can be considered analogous to the divinely inspired rule of kings as well as the power of Popes to call for Crusades, and in the name of each terrible things have happened.

Indeed. Religion originally concentrated power in an intangible force; one outside our own lives. It is when religion is manipulated to concentrate that power in a real, living person we have the greatest issues, be it national cases of Stockholm syndrome like North Korea or the institutionally corrupt Vatican. 'Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely'. When fighting the evils of religion, these must be the targets, not the largely innocuous sphere of personal belief.

That said, of course, governments have a responsibility to provide adequate education to fight ignorance and bigotry. In this respect I doubt anyone would dispute the United States has utterly failed.

 

[Billen]

Sweden 19

I represent Sweden, and we approve this message.

 

[Dimmuxx]

What happened in Sweden?

We are pretty awesome and are hopefully representing the future.

 

[Zapages]

Religion is for people that need others to think for them.


But yet scientific progress was one of the things suppressed by Islamic leaders centuries ago which is why most Muslim countries are so backwards compared to the rest of the world.

:lol :lol :lol

While Europe was in its Middle Ages. Muslims were going their Golden Age and science and inventions were being expanded upon and were miles ahead of Europe. I guess history books just teach from Western prospective. :|

The current state of Muslims can be attributed, the Mongol Invasion. Later, it was due to colonialism and the rise of Wahabism in middle east, and horrible economic strategies that pushed Islamic scientific work back.

 

[Dies Iræ]

If you turn the poll upside down and rename it "list of countries by standard of living" it completely retains its validity.

 

[BocoDragon]

:lol :lol :lol

While Europe was in its Middle Ages. Muslims were going their Golden Age and science and inventions were being expanded upon and were miles ahead of Europe. I guess history books just teach from Western prospective. :|

The current state of Muslims can be attributed, the Mongol Invasion. Later, it was due to colonialism and the rise of Wahabism in middle east, and horrible economic strategies that pushed Islamic scientific work back.

I will vouch for you on this.

The European renaissance and enlightenment probably wouldn't have happened without the knowledge brought back from the Muslim world during the crusades.

 

[tomjenkins]

Religion can be a force of good, but organized religion is almost never a force of good.