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[NahaNago]

The title was jail and prison. OP should have made it clearer, people in jails are mostly for petty crimes which don't deserve the treatment that OP suggested.

I'm still not understanding the difference though. You are still being locked up. The treatment should only differ on the time you serve and the location of the facility.

i believe in rehabilitative not punitive justice wherever possible

basically norway's model, taken with the understanding that certain individuals will never walk outside those bars again

That's the thing most of the folks in prison know that they shouldn't have done what they did. So the main emphasis should be punitive. The rehabilitation portion should happen when you are trying to reintroduce them back in to society.

edit: unless they crazy, then rehabilitate away.

 

[Tesseract]

but you are always trying to reintroduce them back into society

punishment types just wanna divide and conquer

no thanks

 

[BluRayHiDef]

How many people are there for the crimes you mentioned, should everyone suffer for actions of few.

p.s. hope the batman 'chin' rub wasn't too offensive


Even in prisons most people aren't for violent crimes, please check the data. If you want separate prisons for violent people then I might agree with you.

I don't think that you're getting my point. Regardless of the reason for which some inmates are in jail or prison, the high degree of physical interaction therein leads to the formation of gangs, the recruitment of new inmates into gangs, the propagation of drugs, and - of course - violence. It's the existence of these issues inside of jails or prisons that needs to be eliminated, hence my solutions.

In jails, people who are in for minor crimes or because they're awaiting trial for minor crimes are in the same space as people who are in for violent crimes or who are awaiting trial for violent crimes. Likewise for prison except everyone inside has already gone to trial and been convicted.

 

[Cyberpunkd]

I don't think that you're getting my point. Regardless of the reason for which some inmates are in jail or prison, the high degree of physical interaction therein leads to the formation of gangs, the recruitment of new inmates into gangs, the propagation of drugs, and - of course - violence. It's the existence of these issues inside of jails or prisons that needs to be eliminated, hence my solutions.

In jails, people who are in for minor crimes or because they're awaiting trial for minor crimes are in the same space as people who are in for violent crimes or who are awaiting trial for violent crimes. Likewise for prison except everyone inside has already gone to trial and been convicted.

You are then trying to treat the effect, not the cause and going about it in the wrong way:

1. There is high degree of crime and violence when inmates interact with one another
2. What can we do?
2. Solution: put them in solitary confinement

This is the correct approach:

1. There is high degree of crime and violence when inmates interact with one another
2. Why that is the case? What factors from inmates' backgrounds and the way prison system is structured contribute to the situation? How can we decrease the violence while allowing the inmates to interact with one another and maintain social links?
3. Solution A
4. Solution B
5. Solution C

You basically resigned yourself to the current situation being the default and unfixable. I'm sorry to use this analogy but it's the same as 'nothing can be done' about mass shootings in the US, says the only country where mass shootings on such a scale happen. Maybe look beyond your borders for solution?

 

[Jethalal]

I don't think that you're getting my point. Regardless of the reason for which some inmates are in jail or prison, the high degree of physical interaction therein leads to the formation of gangs, the recruitment of new inmates into gangs, the propagation of drugs, and - of course - violence. It's the existence of these issues inside of jails or prisons that needs to be eliminated, hence my solutions.

In jails, people who are in for minor crimes or because they're awaiting trial for minor crimes are in the same space as people who are in for violent crimes or who are awaiting trial for violent crimes. Likewise for prison except everyone inside has already gone to trial and been convicted.

Again I agree you are drawing the right conclusions but your solution is not right. They could add few more restrictions for people in for violent and heinous crimes and gradually decrease them. Please read my earlier posts, I have always talked about 'most cases'. Some mass murderers and serial killers will ofcourse get locked up and separated. I can support a tiered system for different crimes but solitary confinement for all will never get the desired effect as I said earlier but might aggravate some mental issues as I said earlier. There are better solutions than just simply locking people up.

 

[BluRayHiDef]

You are then trying to treat the effect, not the cause and going about it in the wrong way:

1. There is high degree of crime and violence when inmates interact with one another
2. What can we do?
2. Solution: put them in solitary confinement

This is the correct approach:

1. There is high degree of crime and violence when inmates interact with one another
2. Why that is the case? What factors from inmates' backgrounds and the way prison system is structured contribute to the situation? How can we decrease the violence while allowing the inmates to interact with one another and maintain social links?
3. Solution A
4. Solution B
5. Solution C

You basically resigned yourself to the current situation being the default and unfixable.

I don't think that social work, education programs, and sentimental approaches will minimize or eliminate the issues I mentioned. I think that it's unavoidable due to the criminal subculture from which a lot of inmates in United States' jails and prisons come; such inmates are pre-programmed to engage in the activities that I've mentioned.

 

[NahaNago]

but you are always trying to reintroduce them back into society

punishment types just wanna divide and conquer

no thanks

I never said anything about not reintroducing them back into society. I just don't think a jail cell should be where you should do it.

edit: I also read up on your Norway prison style. The issue I have with it is this. You have a tiny country of less than 6 million. Versus a 328 million melting pot of cultures, upbringings, and races.

 

[CertifiedKiwi]

Accept beatings and slashings? Extortion by other inmates? Rape?

Go to 4:28.



This sort of violence needs to be eliminated.

Accept was a wrong choice of word.

Yes I agree about the need to eliminate violence but your solution is not it. There are better solutions for prison reforms as others have suggested.

 

[BluRayHiDef]

Accept was a wrong choice of word.

Yes I agree about the need to eliminate violence but your solution is not it. There are better solutions for prison reforms as others have suggested.

What alternatives would eliminate gang activity, beatings and slashings, rapes, and extortion?

 

[bender]

Incelibacy is a kind of solitary confinement when you think about it

Poor, poor teezzy

 

[MudoSkills]

I've never done such a rapid u-turn from agreeing with he premise of a thread based on the title to completely disagreeing with the opening post.

Good job.

 

[QSD]

Tangentially related but I work in psychiatry here in The Netherlands. Solitary confinement is certainly a necessary tool in some cases though it is used very reluctantly, usually only when a patient is very angry and needs to be kept away from other patients and staff until sedatives or antipsychotics start working. Whether it is inhumane is difficult to answer, people react very differently to a lack of social interaction.

 

[Amory]

That seems pretty fucked up to me. Not to mention expensive

I'm sure there's a ton of reform opportunities for US prisons that could simultaneously make them safer, reduce recidivism, and eliminate unnecessary suffering of prisoners. Reducing the number of people we send to prison in the first place, and reducing sentence times for lower level crimes, for one. And that would actually save taxpayer money.

The issue is the growing percentage of for-profit institutions, which actively want as many prisoners as possible and won't spend a dime more than they have to to get their payments from the government

 

[NahaNago]

I've never done such a rapid u-turn from agreeing with he premise of a thread based on the title to completely disagreeing with the opening post.

Good job.

but why? no answer has actually really been giving to why solitary confinement shouldn't be more of a thing. It is pretty much the grown up version of go to your room or timeout except said by the government. I'm pretty sure I couldn't socialize when I was grounded in my room.

 

[CertifiedKiwi]

What alternatives would eliminate gang activity, beatings and slashings, rapes, and extortion?

I believe there is a strong correlation between a large prison population and increasing gang activity and power. Incarceration rates in US is ridiculously high compare to other developed countries.

Looking at ways to reduce the current prison population would be a good start.eg reduce lengthy sentences for low level minor offences.

And in addition to investing in quality rehab, training, work skills and drug programs.

The focus for the US prison system needs to change from punitive to rehabilitation.

 

[MudoSkills]

but why? no answer has actually really been giving to why solitary confinement shouldn't be more of a thing. It is pretty much the grown up version of go to your room or timeout except said by the government. I'm pretty sure I couldn't socialize when I was grounded in my room.

As far as I understand the argument, solitary confinement is seen as an extreme but necessary measure for certain inmates/as a deterrent for certain behaviour - but like all systems, is open to abuse (excessive use, people being placed in for extended periods). Fairly well documented that it takes a mental toll - it's why it's almost always a feature of torture technique.

If you agree it's inhumane to isolate people, why would your solution be to make sure everyone is more isolated more of the time.

 

[NahaNago]

As far as I understand the argument, solitary confinement is seen as an extreme but necessary measure for certain inmates/as a deterrent for certain behaviour - but like all systems, is open to abuse (excessive use, people being placed in for extended periods). Fairly well documented that it takes a mental toll - it's why it's almost always a feature of torture technique.

If you agree it's inhumane to isolate people, why would your solution be to make sure everyone is more isolated more of the time.

The issue though is what is considered isolation. If you can see and talk to your fellow prisoner on your right and left to a certain extent is that still considered isolation?


edit: are you trying to tell me that I've done harder time during my childhood than most criminals? lol

 

[MudoSkills]

The issue though is what is considered isolation. If you can see and talk to your fellow prisoner on your right and left to a certain extent is that still considered isolation?


edit: are you trying to tell me that I've done harder time during my childhood than most criminals? lol

It's not comete isolation but would be likely to drive you a bit nuts.

The whole concept in the OP seems to be about excessive control/depersonalisation which is all psychologically damaging.

 

[NahaNago]

It's not comete isolation but would be likely to drive you a bit nuts.

The whole concept in the OP seems to be about excessive control/depersonalisation which is all psychologically damaging.

Being in jail is psychologically damaging. Controlled environment is pretty much the focus though. You are trying to create an environment that is safe but at the same time doesn't influence inmates to become more rotten by excessive interactions with the other inmates. Isn't excessive control the main reason for the prison anyways so that inmates can't do what they want. .

I've been grounded for a week to my room with only the bathroom being my only escape from my room, stuck reading only books, eating in my room, and limited convo with the family. If I as a child can handle that why can't a full grown adult.

 

[Draef the Badger]

Rehabilitation is the goal of jail. To take criminals, make them serve their punishment and then rejoin society as capable, functional adults. If it doesn't do that at a high enough rate, then it has utterly failed.

 

[Slings and Arrows]

Solitary confinement is the most inhumane and evil thing you can do to another human being. You may as well kill them, because long-term solitary means they're never coming back to society.

A Lobotomy would be more humane. Or, like mentioned above, just bring back corporal punishment. I would take 10 lashes over 1 month in solitary.

 

[NahaNago]

Rehabilitation is the goal of jail. To take criminals, make them serve their punishment and then rejoin society as capable, functional adults. If it doesn't do that at a high enough rate, then it has utterly failed.

Where is the rehabilitation? all you mentioned was them serving the punishment and then rejoining society.

 

[NahaNago]

Rehabilitation is the goal of jail. To take criminals, make them serve their punishment and then rejoin society as capable, functional adults. If it doesn't do that at a high enough rate, then it has utterly failed.

Plus jail has been around for like forever and I seriously doubt folks were using it as a rehabilitation tool.

whoops double post.

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

Solitary confinement in prison would make costs go up without necessarily reforming the prisoner. People want a sterile answer but prison is dirty and cruel, on its face. Is the purpose of prison to reform a prisoner or to prevent them from interacting with other people?

It's a bit of both, but the answer to the OP's question depends on where you slide that scale. You can be as compassionate as a saint but prison is still prison.

Who are we supposed to be humane to, the prisoner or the victim, or both? Again, a bit of both but it depends on where you slide that scale. What if the most humane thing is execution? Some people aren't willing to entertain that notion, but it is at the end of some of these logical trains of thought.

 

[NahaNago]

eh, I've had this convo with my more empathetic coworkers before and I've been deemed cold blooded in my decision making. I think the use of the word solitary is throwing folks off. Even I think being stuck in solitary for an extended amount of time is disturbing, and with that said I'm out.

 

[BluRayHiDef]

Solitary confinement in prison would make costs go up without necessarily reforming the prisoner. People want a sterile answer but prison is dirty and cruel, on its face. Is the purpose of prison to reform a prisoner or to prevent them from interacting with other people?

It's a bit of both, but the answer to the OP's question depends on where you slide that scale. You can be as compassionate as a saint but prison is still prison.

Who are we supposed to be humane to, the prisoner or the victim, or both? Again, a bit of both but it depends on where you slide that scale. What if the most humane thing is execution? Some people aren't willing to entertain that notion, but it is at the end of some of these logical trains of thought.

Whether or not the purpose of jail and prison is to reform inmates or prevent them from interacting with other people is not the basis of my ideas. The same logic applies to whether or not inmates are deserving of compassion.

The basis of my ideas is the most literal and rudimentary purpose of jail and prison: involuntary confinement to prevent defendants awaiting trial from fleeing or committing further criminal acts in case they're guilty and punishment for criminal behavior of which they've been convicted - and nothing else. This entails eliminating other forms of punishment, namely abuse from other inmates, and the only way to do so is to isolate inmates to an extreme degree.

Penalization is to be carried out by the state - not by fellow inmates. A jail or prison in which inmates can prey on one another is one over which the state does not have complete control, which is unacceptable.

 

[Woo-Fu]

All prison is inhumane, otherwise it isn't prison. You're stripping people of their basic rights and putting them in cages. A gold cage is still a cage. If we're taking away all those rights, why do we live them the right to otherwise humane treatment? Doesn't make any sense to me.

I think the real question is this: Is prison solely to protect the rest of society from the inmates or is it also supposed to be punishment for those crimes and incentive to clean up their act and a deterrent against committing crimes in the first place?

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

Whether or not the purpose of jail and prison is to reform inmates or prevent them from interacting with other people is not the basis of my ideas. The same logic applies to whether or not inmates are deserving of compassion.

The basis of my ideas is the most literal and rudimentary purpose of jail and prison: involuntary confinement to prevent defendants awaiting trial from fleeing or committing further criminal acts if they're guilty and punishment for criminal behavior - and nothing else. This entails eliminating other forms of punishment, namely abuse from other inmates, and the only way to do so is to isolate prisoners to an extreme degree.

Penalization is to be carried out by the state - not by fellow inmates. A jail or prison in which inmates can prey on one another is one over which the state does not have complete control, which is unacceptable.

Solitary confinement is itself a punishment against the prisoner, above and beyond removing them from society and placing them in a separate living space.

I think the ideal for any grievance would be for the two parties to resolve between themselves without involving the government or the court. Everyone buries the hatchet and everyone lives in peaceful bliss. The only reason why we have courts and prisons in the first place is because citizens do not live in peaceful bliss. They act out against one another and will never willingly make amends for the things they do unless it is imposed upon them.

The main reason why we entertain the concept of "humane prison treatment" at all is because of religious sentiments. From a naturalistic standpoint, the prisoner is a disfunctional organ of the society and must be quarantined with the other infections to prevent further damage and spreading into the healthy tissue. There is no regard for the infection, only for the healthy tissue. This is how criminals have been treated and viewed for most of human history, in almost all human cultures. It is only relatively recently that we have considered the rights and condition of the prisoner as something worth caring about.

Solitary confinement might protect them from potential gang violence, but let's just take it a step further: confine all prisoners along hallways, shackled to the walls, unable to reach one another. That solves the problem of solitary confinement destroying their psyche, but also solves the problem of prisoners attacking one another.

What do you think?

Most modern countries inherited their prison mentality from the slave trade. We learned the logistics of herding and trapping other humans because we've been doing it for 1000s of years.

 

[Mitsuda Maniac]

It's 2021, can't have people paying for their crimes no more.