• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Israel 2013 Elections for the 19th Knesset |OT| - Your tax dollars at work!

Status
Not open for further replies.

dude

dude
CegsU.jpg

inuX4.png


In 21 days, it’s election time in Israel, the so called only democracy in the Middle East. This time everything seems to be even crazier than normal. Even if you have followed the last elections or somewhat familiar with Israeli politics you’ll probably still be confused over the utter chaos that is reigning these elections. Seeing as how the outcome of these elections might have quite an effect on the Middle-east, I thought we might need a thread to discuss and try and make sense of the this mess.
I’ll try and present as many parties and key people as I can while giving a little relevant history for each. I will also try and explain in general terms the Israeli election process and what everything means.

Note: I’m not bi-partial - I am affiliated with the Israeli left. I've been an activist for Peace Now, Solidarity and other radical-left groups. I was a member of the Meretz party until recently. I cannot promise a fair standing to the more right wing parties in this thread. If you’re affiliated with the Israeli right, get over it.


The System.
Israel is a parliamentary democracy with a unicameral parliament of 120 seats called the Knesset, which is the legislative power. The prime minister (PM) of Israel is the head of government in a (super) multi-party system. The government and ministers are appointed by the PM. The current Israeli government consists of no less than 28 ministers, some of which have no declared purpose (“minister without a portfolio.”) Only one time in Israeli history a party has managed to reach the 61 seats necessary to form a government on its own, so usually the government is comprised of a coalition of several parties.
Each party has a list of its members, the more votes it gets, the more people from the list get into the Knesset (in the order of the list.) In the elections, each Israeli citizen votes for a party in a secret ballot. This means you do not directly vote to the PM or members of the Knesset. Each party must meet a threshold of 2% of the votes to be allocated a seat in the Knesset.
After the elections, each party will recommend a prime minister, not necessarily from their party, to the president (currently Shimon Peres). He will then see who is the most likely to form a stable coalition and then task him or her with forming the government.
The biggest party does not necessarily win, as we’ve seen in the last election, where Kadima got the majority of the votes, but failed to form a coalition.


The Issues
These are some of the major issues that will drive these elections:

The Economy and Social Issues - Israel saw some of its biggest anti-government protests in the last two years thank to high poverty numbers, high cost of living and other social issues, despite the Israeli economy being on the rise. The population largely attribute this to neo-con economies and unfair distribution of budget. Parties from all across the spectrum are now playing the social game, with even the traditionally fiscally conservative parties like Likud trying to catch up.

The Secular-Religious Status Quo - There's a status quo in Israel regarding the religious population. This has to do with the role orthodox Judaism plays in the country (the sole authority over marriage, divorce and conversion) and the orthodox lifestyle - This includes exemption from the mandatory military service, various government aids and funding for the religious public schools. There's a heated public debate over whether the status quo should remain or broken, as many in the secular population feel they are paying for the Haredi lifestyle while they don't have to serve or work.

Iran and Security - With Israel becoming more and more established and its presence and existence less and less debatable, people look for the unlikeliest of situations to spread fear among the country’s population. The trendiest horror story right now is of a nuclear Iran wiping Israel off the map. Parties are working hard to make sure they appear militant and strong enough - This mainly translate into adding known military figures to the parties.

The Peace un-Process - And what about that pesky little issue that costs Israel its foreign image, economy and national morality known as the occupation? Now that Palestine is a state according to the UN, and Mahmoud Abbas is signaling he’s willing to make hard sacrifices, Israel is put on the spot. While the radical-right remains opposed to the idea of a Palestinian state, the center-right still stumbles over trying to woo moderates while still not losing votes to the radical-right. The left and center block have mostly decided to ignore the issue.


The Parties.
There are no less than 34 parties running in this election. For comparison, Last elections 33 parties have run, of which 12 managed to win seats in the Knesset.
I will try to explain a little about each party, where is stands, historical context etc. But because the sheer numbers, I’ll mostly only talk about the relevant ones.
Because the biggest party is not necessarily the ruling party, there’s a much bigger emphasis on “blocs” (group of parties with similar ideologies and voter base). I’ve decided to divide the parties to - Right, Center, Left, Orthodox and Arab. In many places the Orthodoxs bloc will the merged with the Right Bloc and the Arabs with the Left Bloc, and sometimes both of them with the Center, but I feel that’s largely inaccurate.

The Right Bloc:

nrCGG.png

Likud Beitenu (a joint list of the Likud and Yisrael Beitenu parties) Party led by Benjamin Netanyahu.
This is the traditional conservative/right-wing party of Israel and the current ruling party. They have until now been the moderate center-right party, but have recently merged with the far more extreme Israel Beitenu Party, a far-right party led by Avigdor Lieberman who enjoyed huge popularity last elections. This has not only marked them clearly as much more to the right than their traditional rule, but has in a way also changed the very character of the party. This was made clear by the primaries, which resulted in a practically radical-right list (So much, that the Yisrael Beitenu members of the joint list now considered the moderates.)
So far, the polls are showing a clear decline for the joint list, and votes are continuing to drip (mostly farther to the right, like the Jewish Home party.)

8Htud.png

The Jewish Home-National Union Party (HaBayit HaYehudi) led by Naftali Bennett.
The modern far-right incarnation of the Mafdal (National Religious) party. The original Mafdal party split into various parties, the most notable of which were the Jewish Home party and the National Union party, who decided to again merge into a single party for this election (Save for two notable figures, Aryeh Eldad and Michael Ben-Ari, who decided to run independently.) They mostly represent the nationalistic religious sector in Israel, but are gaining more and more voters from the secular right-wing as well. Their new leader, Naftali Bennett, represents the younger of the party voter base, and is considered to be bad news for Bibi.They are gearing up to be the third or second largest party this election.
Their new model for an Israeli-Palestinian arrangement calls for the annexation of all the C areas in the west bank which is totally not apartheid. Sounds foolproof.

The Center Block:

rX8SN.png

HaAvoda (Labor) Party led by Shelly Yachimovich.
This traditional center-left... Err, I mean just center, was at one time the biggest party in Israel. Hard to believe now, when the party is at an all time low after being led by Ehud Barak who steered the party much more to the right, to the point he left the party to form his own and then quitting the race in a hilarious act of political seppuku. Since then the party has elected social-democratic Sheli Yachimovich to lead it. Noted for her fierce stance on welfare and economics issues, she’s less clear on foreign policy and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict to the point one might think there’s no conflict at all.
Recently, Yachomovich stated that calling Labor a left-wing party is a historical injustice, and gave a speech in the settlement of Ariel to appease more right-wing voters. Whether this is a pragmatic masquerade or an ideological turn for the party remains to be seen. The primaries meanwhile have resulted in clearly leftist list, populated by many new and young people (many from the protest of summer 2011.)

XmJzE.png

Yesh Atid (There’s a Future) led by Yair Lapid.
Ah, the new player in Israeli politics. Yair Lapid was a late-night and news host, journalist and general douche who now turns to politics. He’s the son of former Knesset member Tommy Lapid. As a journalist he was insanely popular in Israel, and was at one time seen as the epitome of everything Israeli. He announced his bid to run for Knesset earlier this year, and has since then said everything to try and appease everyone while not saying anything in particular either. He’s running as the savior of the middle-class (even though his fiscal stances are strictly neo-con) and as an opposition to the religious winds in the Knesset (even though he has a homophobic Rabbi as his no. 2) In objective terms, the guy is a total slimeball.

tHCwH.png

HaTanua (The Movement) led by Tzippi Livni.
Tzippi Livni, you might remember the name as the biggest opposition to Bibi four years ago. After winning the most Knesset seats she decided to do nothing but sit on her ass, which turned out not to be the best strategy, as she soon lost the primaries in Kadima, her former party, to Shaul Mofaz. After quitting and a brief period of irritating teasing, she decided to run in a new party into which she gathered every Israeli politician who ever lost an election.

9spn3.png

Kadima led by Shaul Mofaz.
If you followed the last elections, you might recall this name, or even the name of the former party leader Tzippi Livni. This centrist party was founded by former PM Ariel Sharon in 2005 with moderates both from the Likud and the Labor parties. It enjoyed some strong years as a ruling party and won the majority of the votes in the last election, only to fail to build a coalition. They were marketed as a center-left alternative to Bibi in the last election, but the huge pile of nothing they have done in the opposition since then has all but wiped out this party, with recent polls suggesting they are barely scraping the minimum votes required to enter the Knesset. Their fade from relevance has been so swift they’re only still in this thread because I started writing it a few weeks ago.

The Left Bloc:

nJ3ha.png

Meretz led by Zahava Gal-On.
This party has traditionally filled the gap to the left of Labor (though now that Labor is denouncing its leftist heritage, it is the only party describing itself as Zionist Left.) It was founded in 1992, and enjoyed high popularity in the 90’s among young voters and liberals, peaking at 12 seats. Since then, as the Israeli voter leaned more and more to the right, the party has lost it’s power until barely maintaining relevancy. They are for social-progressive economy, the immediate return to the peace talks with the Palestinians and dovish foreign relations. Also, Sarah Silverman is apparently a supporter.

Cdboj.png

Hadash (Democratic Front for Peace and Equality), led by Mohammad Barakeh.
A leftist Jewish-Arab party. They have strong ideal in terms of social issues (some even describing them as Marxists) and the peace process (they call for recognition of Palestinians Arabs as a national minority in Israel.) Their no. 3, Dov Hanin, is a very respected figure in the Israeli left and one of the most active people in the Knesset.

The Orthodox Bloc:

URAPk.png

Shas, led by Eli Yishay.
Shas is The Sephardi ultra-orthodox religious party of Israel. While they’re aligned with the right, they will usually join any government that offers them seats as long as they can promise to keep the religious status quo in terms of exemption from military service, control over their religious school system etc. They recently saw the return of Aryeh Deri, their former leader who left politics for jail after he was convicted of accepting bribes and other crimes. He rejoined his old party after his release. They also lost a key member, Haim Amsalem, who supports integrating orthodox Jews into the workforce and conscripting them into the army. Amsalem is running in his own party (see below.)

83LEV.png

Am Shalem (Whole Nation) led by Haim Amsalem.
A splinter party from Shas, which is more focused on general welfare and to further integrate the orthodox Haredim jews into the Israeli society, while still maintaining a right-wing agenda.

UswBI.png

United Torah Judaism, led by Yaakov Litzman/Moshe Gafni*
The Ashkenazi Haredi ultra-orthodox party. This party is a merger of two smaller orthodox parties. They are a curious party, as they cannot fully recognize Israel (a Jewish state can only rise after the arrival of the messiah, according to scripture) so they never serve as ministers in the government. Their only real concern is keeping the religious status quo in Israel.
*To keep all hasidic courts happy, the party rotates its leadership.

The Arab Bloc:

Zs0xE.png

Balad (National Democratic Assembly) led by Jamal Zhalka.
Usually described as a Liberal Palestinian nationalist party. The party supports the transition of Israel from a “Jewish democracy” to a social-democracy for all its citizens.

G5osq.png

United Arab List-Ta’al led by Ahmed Tibi.
This arab party consists mostly of the more religious and nationalistic arab voters. It’s actually a joint list of three parties - United Arab List, Ta’al, and the Islamic Movement.

Polls:
Qbyyc.jpg

(Taken from Haarez.com.)
oimg

(taken from +972 Magazine.)
 
The fact that they're still around when the entire region wants them dead is impressive. It somehow reminds me of the Thermopylae.
 

Dead Man

Member
Thanks, I think I spotted it and fixed it.

:)

The difficulties with forming multi party governments are one of the reasons I prefer the Australian system, with instant run off voting by region for the lower house, and a modified proportional representation system for the upper house.
 

dude

dude
Results will probably (most likely) depress me.

Well, the chances that Bibi won't be PM are low to non-existent, and the country seems to continue leaning more and more to the right with every elections, to the point the entire left has about 7 seats in the Knesset. Yes, I would say depressed is what I'll be going for as well.
 

dude

dude
Sorry for the double post, but a new poll is out today, by Walla!:
Likud - 34 MKs, Labor 18 MKs, Jewish Home 15 MKs, Shas 11 MKs, HaTnua 10 Mks, Yesh Atid 10 MKs, United Torah Judaism 6 MKs, Meretz 4 MKs, Hadash 4 MKs, United Arab List-Ta'al 4 MKs, Balad 2 MKs, Kadima 2 MKs

Looks like the Likud is continuing to lose voted to the right (Jewish Home) while the center-left bloc is growing a little stronger as well.
 

Wazzim

Banned
Holy shit at that poll, I've never seen one that depressing for the leftwing nut that is me.

Also, that Labour party going to the center story sounds very familiar.
 

Funky Papa

FUNK-Y-PPA-4
It should be mentioned that Eli Yishay has been recorded saying "Israel belongs to the white man", just for the irony to really sink in.

Are Sephardites really that crazy in Israel? All I've ever met are pretty normal ass individuals, but for some reason each time I heard about the Israeli ones they seem cuckoo for some reason or another, and apparently they even carry a bit of fame themselves...
 

dude

dude
Yeah, he never actually said that at all. Shas don't even see themselves as "white".

They also aren't led by Yishai alone but a tri-leadership of Yishai, Deri and Attias. Otherwise good OP.

That's the most apologetic article I've ever heard. The sentiment is borderline racist either way. Shas indeed do not see themselves as white, but that doesn't stop them from being the second most racist party in Israel right now.

Are Sephardites really that crazy in Israel? All I've ever met are pretty normal ass individuals, but for some reason each time I heard about the Israeli ones they seem cuckoo for some reason or another, and apparently they even carry a bit of fame themselves...
I'm Sephardi (well, I'm not religious but you get the idea), This is a religious thing rather than a Sephardi thing, The ultra-orthodox Ashkenazi are usually just as crazy.)
 

dude

dude
He was echoing comments of illegal immigrants, not stating his own opinion.

Also Shas electioneers as being non-white, so I'm inclined to believe it.
This is the full quote:
"Most of the people coming here are Muslims who think the land doesn’t belong to us at all, to the white man.”

Yishay says the immigrants do not think the land belong to us (The White Man, which you say is the Immigrants definition, which I can accept) at all. But what's also implies is that Yishay thinks the land does belong to us, only instad of "White Man" he would have probably used "Jews". The sentiment is racist in either case.
 
This is the full quote:
"Most of the people coming here are Muslims who think the land doesn’t belong to us at all, to the white man.”

Yishay says the immigrants do not think the land belong to us (The White Man, which you say is the Immigrants definition, which I can accept) at all. But what's also implies is that Yishay thinks the land does belong to us, only instad of "White Man" he would have probably used "Jews". The sentiment is racist in either case.

That isn't the full quote.

His point was that many illegal immigrants don't actually believe white people should be there at all. He never said anything about the land belonging exclusively to white people.

You havent updated the OP about Shas leadership either.
 

dude

dude
That isn't the full quote.

His point was that many illegal immigrants don't actually believe white people should be there at all. He never said anything about the land belonging exclusively to white people.

You havent updated the OP about Shas leadership either.

I don't think anyone, even Eli Yishay, thinks the immigrants and refugees want to take over Israel or drive the Jews out. I mean, that's pretty absurd. Yishay does think the land belong exclusively to the Jewish through.

And what is particular is missing from the OP? I'm not very up to date with what's going on with Shas.
 

Mejilan

Running off of Custom Firmware
Separation of church and state is desperately needed. That, and 'Bibi ha-Melekh' needs to fucking go! I just don't understand how a man so intelligent could be so fucking backwards and destructive. Such shameful corruption and dysfunction.

Most Israelis I know are as disgusted and disappointed as me. Sadly, not enough, though...
 

yarden24

Member
Separation of church and state is desperately needed. That, and 'Bibi ha-Melekh' needs to fucking go! I just don't understand how a man so intelligent could be so fucking backwards and destructive. Such shameful corruption and dysfunction.

Most Israelis I know are as disgusted and disappointed as me. Sadly, not enough, though...

I would say most Israel's would disagree with you, as can be seen by the polls.

also, people living abroad are probably more likely to lean to the left then Israel's general populace.
 
Haaretz has a new poll

http://www.haaretz.com/news/nationa...e-ground-to-habayit-hayehudi.premium-1.491315

Well, the chances that Bibi won't be PM are low to non-existent, and the country seems to continue leaning more and more to the right with every elections, to the point the entire left has about 7 seats in the Knesset. Yes, I would say depressed is what I'll be going for as well.

I'm not israeli so I care more about the peace process than any other issue but it just depresses me to see Israel keep moving to the right and becoming more and more racist. I hope its just a phase though the demographics don't look good for that.

I don't understand the growing religiosity. The country is awesome though I love it when I visited. Really wish its politics were better.
 

dude

dude
New "Kol Israel" poll predicts 18 seats for the Jewish Home, get ready for Israel to make the full transition to South Africa!

Enough doom and gloom though, in the same poll Meretz has 7 seats, so here's an uplifting photo:
okTrd.jpg
 
Holy shit at that poll, I've never seen one that depressing for the leftwing nut that is me.

Also, that Labour party going to the center story sounds very familiar.

Well the left/right is very hard to define I think in Israel.

I mean the Likud is solidly in power but you don't see them trying to repeal Israelicare (or whatever their socialistic healthcare system is called).


I guess it is all how the Palestinian policy is dealt with and now the Orthodox are handled.
 

Mejilan

Running off of Custom Firmware
I would say most Israel's would disagree with you, as can be seen by the polls.

also, people living abroad are probably more likely to lean to the left then Israel's general populace.

Clearly. (And sadly).
'Most Israelis I know' is a disappointingly insignificant subset of 'most Israelis.'

Politics and reason rarely coincide.
I spent almost five years living there after I graduated from high school here in the States, only to get the fuck out of Dodge.

Can't believe it has been 12 years since I bailed...
But even almost entirely as a bystander, I can (and do) feel saddened by the ongoing radicalization I see.
 

dude

dude
Well the left/right is very hard to define I think in Israel.

I mean the Likud is solidly in power but you don't see them trying to repeal Israelicare (or whatever their socialistic healthcare system is called).


I guess it is all how the Palestinian policy is dealt with and now the Orthodox are handled.

Well, the Likud is also fiscally conservative, and it has been continuing on the path of almost total privatization in Israel to the point almost the entire economy is run by a handful of tycoons. I guess this is not as interesting to people outside of Israel though.

Still spreading your filth eh.

I guess? I sarcastically implied that if Israel continues on its current path it cannot survive, how is that "filth"?
 
I don't understand the growing religiosity. The country is awesome though I love it when I visited. Really wish its politics were better.
I don't think it is really a growing religiosity. I think that much of it is just hard-nosed pragmatism. The big wall has brought relative security. Things are now peaceful than they were in previous decades. So they just stick with what is working. But I'm not so sure it is a good idea . . . it could blow up eventually unless they resolve issues. They may go too far down the Apartheid path.

And I think there could be some anti-religious back-lash if the amount of benefits to the people that don't work but instead just collect benefits and study the Torah keeps growing.
 

dude

dude
So, I have a question for the Israelis/Ex-Israelis of NeoGAF - Have you heard of #Eretz Hadasha Party (site in Hebrew) and/or the Da'am Workers Party? Both are very interesting parties with low chances of getting into the Knesset (but both are seeing a lot of positive buzz lately around the web.) I am really leaning towards voting Da'am, but even though I have no problem voting for small parties, I still kind of feel like it's a wasted vote.
 

Chichikov

Member
So, I have a question for the Israelis/Ex-Israelis of NeoGAF - Have you heard of #Eretz Hadasha Party (site in Hebrew)
I find it very hard to trust someone like Eldad Yaniv, but damn, I hope he get into the Knesset for the lulz (what else can you hope for from that election?).

I knew some people who were in that party back in the days, they're good people who I agree with a whole lot, and I respect the shit out of Asma Agbarieh.
 

dude

dude
I find it very hard to trust someone like Eldad Yaniv, but damn, I hope he get into the Knesset for the lulz (what else can you hope for from that election?).
My thoughts exactly, if he can do what he says he will, it will in the very least be an amusing four years...

I knew some people who were in that party back in the days, they're good people who I agree with a whole lot, and I respect the shit out of Asma Agbarieh.
Yeah, more and more people I know are leaving Hadash for Da'am and many of my friends have become full-time activists there. The question is if anyone outside of Tel Aviv even knows they exist. Also, my girlfriend (who's Palestinian) tell me they are not very liked in the Arab sector because they appear as giving up their Palestinian identity. This casts even further doubt on whether they can gather enough votes.
 

dude

dude
Bug enough news for a bump: Tzipi Livni of HaTnua offered on live TV to the Shelly Yachimovich and Yair Lapid to work together and form bloc to block Bibi (refuse to sit with Bibi in the government and reach agreements to help establish a center-left government.) Yachimovich sent a text messege to Livni during the broadcast to agree. Lapid hasn't responded yet.

With the Likud growing weaker and weaker closer to the elections, this might actually work (unless the Jewish Home get enough votes to block it.) Not necessarily work in the sense of blocking Bibi from being the PM, but it'll block him for achieving a strong coalition.
 
Bug enough news for a bump: Tzipi Livni of HaTnua offered on live TV to the Shelly Yachimovich and Yair Lapid to work together and form bloc to block Bibi (refuse to sit with Bibi in the government and reach agreements to help establish a center-left government.) Yachimovich sent a text messege to Livni during the broadcast to agree. Lapid hasn't responded yet.

With the Likud growing weaker and weaker closer to the elections, this might actually work (unless the Jewish Home get enough votes to block it.) Not necessarily work in the sense of blocking Bibi from being the PM, but it'll block him for achieving a strong coalition.

Please let this be true. Who are the other parties those people are head of? I have an opportunity to go to israel for an internship next year but really don't want to go if bibi is still gonna be PM. Not that I agree with all the lefts positions but I do more so than Bibi who I hate.

Could something like this encourage center left voters who might have felt like bibi was inevitable to vote. Also wouldn't, even if bibi wins make his coalition pretty weak and susceptible to an early election. Also would it make a strike on iran less likely (he'd be weaker)?
 

dude

dude
Please let this be true. Who are the other parties those people are head of? I have an opportunity to go to israel for an internship next year but really don't want to go if bibi is still gonna be PM. Not that I agree with all the lefts positions but I do more so than Bibi who I hate.

Could something like this encourage center left voters who might have felt like bibi was inevitable to vote. Also wouldn't, even if bibi wins make his coalition pretty weak and susceptible to an early election. Also would it make a strike on iran less likely (he'd be weaker)?

The three parties are HaTnua, Labor and Yesh Atid, all the center block basically, but Meretz and Hadash has already praised the idea (Meretz has a shot of getting into the coalition, Hadash... Less so, but I guess weirder things have happened.) And yes, there are about 18 seats of undecided voters according to polls (most of which are considered to be center-left) and I think this move might make a lot of them vote to strengthen the bloc.

If they fail to gather the votes to block the right-wing and Orthodox bloc, they can work together as an active opposition and, yeah, make Bibi fear for his seat at every turn.
 

dude

dude
Three days to the elections. Some recent updates:
The attempts of the center-left parties to bloc Netanyahu failed, as they could not reach an agreement. Lapid stated they should all join Bibi's government to establish a moderate center-right government.

Likud continues to dip in the polls, going as low as 32 seats. Yisrael Beitenu leader Avigdor Lieberman said the merger of the two parties will probably end after the election - Likud might be as weak as 20 seats.

Meretz is growing stronger, doubling it's current seats to 6 (or even 7 in some polls.)

Yesh Atid is also growing slightly stronger to 12 seats.

Labor still can't break the 17 seats barrier in the polls.

#EretzHadasha is quoting some internet polls, saying they are at 3 seats. (they do seem to enjoy some momentum, they have huge ads all over one of the most popular sites in Israel.)

Da'am are said to be scraping the votes thershold to get into the Knesset thanks to young Arab voters, but their chances of getting into the Knesset are still low.

Basically, I have no idea what's going on.
 
Wow. The spread among so many different parties is amazing. I'm jealous. It sucks having to choose between marginally competent and crazy.
 

dude

dude
Wow. The spread among so many different parties is amazing. I'm jealous. It sucks having to choose between marginally competent and crazy.

Well, it's almost the same here, only we have about 3-4 crazy parties, a couple of incompetent parties, and about 3 parties with no ideology at all.
 

Kad5

Member
Likud party is probably going to win. The only thing i'm wondering is that when they win is Netanyahu going to decide to send airstrikes on Iran?
 

dude

dude
Likud party is probably going to win. The only thing i'm wondering is that when they win is Netanyahu going to decide to send airstrikes on Iran?
Thats the funny thing, no one even cares about Iran over here anymore. I mean, no one talked about Iran in like a month. It was so obviously a spin it's painful now.

So no, that's probably not going to happen. Unless people will get to the streets again, then Bibi might get nervous.
 

Chichikov

Member
Thats the funny thing, no one even cares about Iran over here anymore. I mean, no one talked about Iran in like a month. It was so obviously a spin it's painful now.
Good thing no one spent 11 billion shekels on that bullshit.
Oh wait...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom