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[falastini]

Where did I say "inherently violent"?

Since you want to drag settlements along, tell me why was Israel invaded in 1948 when they neither occupied Gaza or the West Bank? And before there was even state, why was there several riots targeted at Jews between 1920 - 1948?

No matter how some want to skew the conflict, it's never a black and white issue.

Because when a colonial entity suddenly starts moving into your land, talking about creating their own country, where you and your families have lived for centuries, starts buying land and excluding Arabs from working on it, the natives saw the writing on the wall. Not to mention the Balfour Declaration. What was supposed to happen if not resistance?

There was violence on both sides. Israel displaced 300,000 Arabs before they proclaimed their independence in 1948.

The UN partition plan was bullshit. Jews made up the smaller population (~30%)(many of which just flooded the country because of the war) but were offered 55% of the land. Whereas the Palestinians, who made up ~70%, were given 45%. How does any of that make sense?

 

[Lil Marco]

Israel is white?

Anyone can be Jewish.

Nice fallacy.

Israel is a white state.

 

[Wag]

God damn it when will this extreme right wing government be replaced already

Which one?

 

[SomTervo]

Fuck it, at this point we might as well liquidate Palestine and let them have it, while keeping all the receipts so the rest of the world can know in the future.

 

[The Hamburglar]

Israel is white?

Anyone can be Jewish.

You mean like those black Jews from Africa white Israelis tried to say we're not real Jews. Why am I replying to this guy again ffs.

 

[Lil Marco]

You mean like those black Jews from Africa white Israelis tried to say we're not real Jews. Why am I replying to this guy again ffs.

Seriously lol.

 

[JordanN]

Nice fallacy.

Israel is a white state.

Lol, I'll remember that then despite one of their Navy commanders being ethnic chinese or how they have an entire political party for arab citizens.

So white. /s

 

[ECC]

Because when a colonial entity suddenly starts moving into your land, talking about creating their own country, where you and your families have lived for centuries, starts buying land and excluding Arabs from working on it, the natives saw the writing on the wall. Not to mention the Balfour Declaration. What was supposed to happen if not resistance?

There was violence on both sides. Israel displaced 300,000 Arabs before they proclaimed their independence in 1948.

The UN partition plan was bullshit. Jews made up the smaller population (~30%)(many of which just flooded the country because of the war) but were offered 55% of the land. Whereas the Palestinians, who made up ~70%, were given 45%. How does any of that make sense?

Not disputing your post, and definitely not disputing the feasibility of the original plan, but if you really want a "reason" for that particular percentage division it is the Negev desert. It is the southernmost "Israeli" extension in the original division plan and at this point in time, it consisted mostly of sand/rock and not too much else. In short, it was recognized that the "value" of the land depends a lot on how useful it was.

For additional clarity for those who have not studied the original maps (of the proposed partition plan): the western tranche towards the sea and the northern extension towards Syria was land that was majority owned by the Jewish people/or the Jewish agency (At the time of proposal).

 

[Cub3h]

Nice fallacy.

Israel is a white state.

Something like 900,000 Israeli jews are ethnically from Africa (Morocco, Tunisia, Algeria etc.), 700,000 from Asia (Iran, Iraq, Yemen etc.). Those people aren't "white". There's something like 100,000 black ethiopian jews. Then there's the however many that are (partially) descended from the pre-1940 jews that have always lived in the Levant.

Then there's the 1.5 million Arab Israelis, the Druze, bedouin who all aren't white either.

 

[Lil Marco]

#notallisraelis

 

[Dude Abides]

Where did I say "inherently violent"?

Since you want to drag settlements along, tell me why was Israel invaded in 1948 when they neither occupied Gaza or the West Bank? And before there was even state, why was there several riots targeted at Jews between 1920 - 1948?

No matter how some want to skew the conflict, it's never a black and white issue.

It may shock you to learn that indigenous populations tend to resist colonists.

 

[JordanN]

It may shock you to learn that indigenous populations tend to resist colonists.

In Israel's case, the Jews historically lived there before being expelled by the Romans and went into exile. I don't fault them for not wanting to return to their homeland given any opportunity they had.

However, that does't mean Palestinians don't also have a right to live in that land and I believe they should also have their own country whenever they're ready to come to a proper agreement.

 

[Codeblue]

Lol, I'll remember that then despite one of their Navy commanders being ethnic chinese or how they have an entire political party for arab citizens.

So white. /s

Why do you think it was policy to inject Ethiopian women with birth control?

 

[Palette Swap]

These settlements are such a fucking blight. I hate that they aren't shunned diplomatically for this bullshit. There's no reasonable or decent defense of this, like not remotely.

On top of being monstrous, they seem to run entirely opposite to the long term survival of Israel, which you would assume would be the government's goal. There's no sustainable one-state solution.

 

[The Hamburglar]

Why do you think it was policy to inject Ethiopian women with birth control?

Don't bother as you can see from my two posts he ignores everything that discredits him and starts talking about something else. He isn't even a troll.

He's even using the 2000 years ago defence lol.

 

[Illithid Dude]

Lol Israel isn't a white state it's a jewish state. Jews are separated in to two categories, sephardic and ashkenazi. Sephardic are middle eastern, ashkenazi are generally european. Sephardic jews are certainly not white.

Israel has just as much right to exist as any other post-colonial country does. Israel is a direct resault of both the Halocaust and the anti-semetic attitude the USSR and soviet block countries had. Prussia, where the majority of ashkenazi jews are from, was incredibly anti-semetic, and the jews either went to the US or Israel. If people weren't historically horrible to jews, Israel wouldn't have happened. If people were nice to jews and didn't spend thousands of years trying to eradicate them, there would be no Israel. Instead, the jews were forced to found a country for themselves. Israel also happenes to be the most modern country in the middle east, and the only democratic country in the middle east. That is certainly worth something.

There should of course be a two state solution. The beauty of democracry is that presidents come and go. Israel won't always be right wing, just as the US won't always have Trump.

 

[fireflame]

My question may look strange, but could war be ended with materialist approach?

Like, decide that the area will be handled by two states, and to make both populations happy, gift them with money or items that will improve their daily lives.

To make short, if citizens of both countries were given hi tech gifts, phones, computersconsoles,etd and a raise in monthly pay, could it help to reach a definitive peace? If quality of life reaches the level of western countries for both countries, i see no reason for them to keep fighting.
If people get more comfort by remaining peaceful they will have no incentive to fight.

 

[Chairman Yang]

My question may look strange, but could war be ended with materialist approach?

Like, decide that the area will be handled by two states, and to make both populations happy, gift them with money or items that will improve their daily lives.

To make short, if citizens of both countries were given hi tech gifts, phones, computersconsoles,etd and a raise in monthly pay, could it help to reach a definitive peace? If quality of life reaches the level of western countries for both countries, i see no reason for them to keep fighting.
If people get more comfort by remaining peaceful they will have no incentive to fight.

Your question isn't strange--the concept of pacifying angry extremists with better living conditions was tossed around a lot after 9/11.

The answer is that no, a materialist approach will do nothing. It might even exacerbate the problem. Israel is already booming economically and its citizens have a good, and improving, standard of living. As for Islamic-flavoured fanaticism, wealth seems to have done nothing to dampen the popularity of jihadism in countries like Saudi Arabia and the richer segments of the Pakistani population. I expect it would have the same impact on Palestinians.

 

[thespot84]

My question may look strange, but could war be ended with materialist approach?

Like, decide that the area will be handled by two states, and to make both populations happy, gift them with money or items that will improve their daily lives.

To make short, if citizens of both countries were given hi tech gifts, phones, computersconsoles,etd and a raise in monthly pay, could it help to reach a definitive peace? If quality of life reaches the level of western countries for both countries, i see no reason for them to keep fighting.
If people get more comfort by remaining peaceful they will have no incentive to fight.

No, the current power structure on both sides can still use land and cultural history as a way to hold on to that power, regardless of how good things get for everyone. If they concede, the land issue still exists and provides a vector for someone new to consolidate power.

This will not end without a multigenerational solution. Those currently in power do not benefit from peace, and if they acted in a pro-social/altruistic way to bring peace the issues they used to maintain power in the past would still be available for new actors looking to gain power in the future. Those issues will only disappear if many generations of leadership act in a pro-social way, essentially sowing the seeds for peace long in the future.

That or the world unilateral decides to pick a winner and the other side eventually disappears. Morally abject, but certainly more efficient.

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

Which one?

The Likud

 

[sazzy]

Israel isn't going to give up everything its already built in the West Bank. It's unfortunate but it's just not going to happen.

Google west bank settlements map.

 

[Yeah You See How You Scum]

Edit: Retracting a bit.

 

[Condom]

It's their God given right, it says so right here in the Bible.

 

[ZealousD]

Who the fuck are the people who decide to move their family to the West Bank anyway?

Do they feel any sense of guilt building their houses on the ruins of the recently evicted Palestinians?

Do they even see them as human?

The Israeli government dumps a TON of money into settlements. There are hardline conservatives out there for sure but there are also a lot of people who move to the settlements because it makes a lot of sense economically.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6L9mS9ti6o

 

[gabbo]

Lol Israel isn't a white state it's a jewish state. Jews are separated in to two categories, sephardic and ashkenazi. Sephardic are middle eastern, ashkenazi are generally european. Sephardic jews are certainly not white.

Israel has just as much right to exist as any other post-colonial country does. Israel is a direct resault of both the Halocaust and the anti-semetic attitude the USSR and soviet block countries had. Prussia, where the majority of ashkenazi jews are from, was incredibly anti-semetic, and the jews either went to the US or Israel. If people weren't historically horrible to jews, Israel wouldn't have happened. If people were nice to jews and didn't spend thousands of years trying to eradicate them, there would be no Israel. Instead, the jews were forced to found a country for themselves. Israel also happenes to be the most modern country in the middle east, and the only democratic country in the middle east. That is certainly worth something.

There should of course be a two state solution. The beauty of democracry is that presidents come and go. Israel won't always be right wing, just as the US won't always have Trump.

I don't disagree with the rest of your post, but it's not like the Jews just showed up at the Palestine border one day carrying coolers for a barbecue and decide to stay because they liked the neighbourhood so much. They had help from the Allied powers after WW2, one of whom controlled the territory at the time

 

[ZiZ]

This is disgusting. How they even have the audacity claim to be the good guys is beyond me.

 

[curiouscharles]

go FUCK yourself Israel... seriously.

so many conflicts that began before I was born, and will end long after I die.

fucking sad man.

 

[Rozart]

Disgusting.

Can someone explain to me why anyone won't do anything abt this? Is Israel just allowed to keep doing what they want w/o any repercussions?

 

[Lil Marco]

Disgusting.

Can someone explain to me why anyone won't do anything abt this? Is Israel just allowed to keep doing what they want w/o any repercussions?

The west sees israel as a strategic foothold and influence node (muh democracies, muh freedomz, muh way of life) in the middle east, so they'll keep sponsoring it and ignoring the human rights violations that happen every damn day.

Other countries are too scared to intervene.

 

[Principate]

Lol, I'll remember that then despite one of their Navy commanders being ethnic chinese or how they have an entire political party for arab citizens.

So white. /s

One fucking commander. That's your arguement?

Jesus did it not once strike you just how poor it was?.

 

[Despera]

I'm just saying they don't exist for mere cartoon reasons of "we're evil".

You're making up an argument nobody is making just for the sake of rationilizing this act.

I want to say what you're doing is extremely devious, but it's too on the nose to achieve that.

I think you're simply lost.

 

[Sunster]

Post have been edited since people disagreed with my choice of words:
If you were a soldier I somehow doubt that you would let yourself be hit by those stones either.


Original post:
If you were a soldier I somehow doubt that you would let yourself be stoned either (literally).

I also wouldn't need to kill a kid to prevent myself from being hit by a rock.

 

[Messofanego]

In Israel's case, the Jews historically lived there before being expelled by the Romans and went into exile. I don't fault them for not wanting to return to their homeland given any opportunity they had.

However, that does't mean Palestinians don't also have a right to live in that land and I believe they should also have their own country whenever they're ready to come to a proper agreement.

So it's Palestinians halting peace agreements and not coming to Israel all polite about this, no part of the blame goes to Israel?

 

[Pusherman]

Israel has just as much right to exist as any other post-colonial country does.

Israel isn't post-colonial at all, it's a modern day colony. That's why it doesn't have a right to exist, at least not in its current ethnoreligious form. Just like how Apartheid South Africa didn't have a right to exist.

If people weren't historically horrible to jews, Israel wouldn't have happened.

Antisemitism certainly wasn't and isn't unique to Europe but the truth of the matter is that Israel wouldn't have happened if Europeans weren't historically horrible to the Jews. So why is Israel a continuation of European horribleness (colonisation) instead of a reparation by Europe for their Jewish minority community?

Israel also happenes to be the most modern country in the middle east, and the only democratic country in the middle east. That is certainly worth something.

Nah, that isn't worth anything at all. Israel is not a pure secular democracy because of its status as a Jewish state. It also enforces Apartheid and occupation, has fought multiple destructive wars against the Palestinian people and forced them to live in an open-air prison. Plus, it, of course, has its fair share of systemic racism and discrimination towards it non-Jewish, and especially Arab, citizens.

There should of course be a two state solution.

Nobody on either side has ever seriously believed in a two-state solution. There is no viable two-state solution. Palestinians and the wider Arab world are never going to accept a European colony on their soil and Israel will never allow a functioning, thriving and therefore threatening Palestine as neighbour. As long as people keep believing in the two-state solution the slow eradication of Palestine as a state, and perhaps even as a people, is going to continue.

 

[sazzy]

Israel isn't going to give up everything its already built in the West Bank. It's unfortunate but it's just not going to happen.

Google west bank settlements map.

Figured I'd post it:

 

[Breads]

Lol Israel isn't a white state it's a jewish state. Jews are separated in to two categories, sephardic and ashkenazi. Sephardic are middle eastern, ashkenazi are generally european. Sephardic jews are certainly not white.

Israel has just as much right to exist as any other post-colonial country does. Israel is a direct resault of both the Halocaust and the anti-semetic attitude the USSR and soviet block countries had. Prussia, where the majority of ashkenazi jews are from, was incredibly anti-semetic, and the jews either went to the US or Israel. If people weren't historically horrible to jews, Israel wouldn't have happened. If people were nice to jews and didn't spend thousands of years trying to eradicate them, there would be no Israel. Instead, the jews were forced to found a country for themselves. Israel also happenes to be the most modern country in the middle east, and the only democratic country in the middle east. That is certainly worth something.

There should of course be a two state solution. The beauty of democracry is that presidents come and go. Israel won't always be right wing, just as the US won't always have Trump.

Israel has the right to this land because they are jews!

This is what you're saying and it's fucking dumb.

This is oppression. This is an invasion.

 

[Leopold]

You mean like those black Jews from Africa white Israelis tried to say we're not real Jews. Why am I replying to this guy again ffs.

Those who were brought by the Israeli Air Force airplanes?

 

[eizarus]

Scum contuing to be scum.

If anyone's interested, Miko Peled (grandson of one of the signatories of the Israeli Indpedence Declaration, Avraham Katsnelson) gives an amazing view of the issue from the perspective of an elite upper class Israeli who's against the apartheid and of the indoctrination that goes on in Israel. His books called The General's Son: Journey of an Israeli in Palestine.

There's a few talks by him on YouTube but this one covers the themes of his books: https://youtu.be/TOaxAckFCuQ

 

[Yeah You See How You Scum]

Edit: Whoops, meant to edit an existing post. Sorry, I'm new. Sorry.

 

[Pusherman]

Scum contuing to be scum.

If anyone's interested, Miko Peled (grandson of one of the signatories of the Israeli Indpedence Declaration, Avraham Katsnelson) gives an amazing view of the issue from the perspective of an elite upper class Israeli who's against the apartheid and of the indoctrination that goes on in Israel. His books called The General's Son: Journey of an Israeli in Palestine.

There's a few talks by him on YouTube but this one covers the themes of his books: https://youtu.be/TOaxAckFCuQ

Damn, hadn't heard of this man before but he's great. It breaks my heart that the people who understand the only real and just way forward seem so few and far between.

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

Nobody in power is interested in actually ending the conflict in the region.

 

[eizarus]

Damn, hadn't heard of this man before but he's great. It breaks my heart that the people who understand the only real and just way forward seem so few and far between.

Ikr. The guy is excellent. His family has been closely tied to the upper class including former leaders, and he doesn't shy away from discussing that in relation to the Israel Palestine conflict.

 

[diabl0]

Disgusting pieces of shit.

This

 

[GuessWho]

Disgusting.

Can someone explain to me why anyone won't do anything abt this? Is Israel just allowed to keep doing what they want w/o any repercussions?

It would be/is hypocrisy 101, because the rest of the world does/has done the same thing. But hey,the only country that is in the wrong is Israel.

 

[Septic360]

It would be/is hypocrisy 101, because the rest of the world does/has done the same thing. But hey,the only country that is in the wrong is Israel.

LOL! How dare you not allow Israel to be an apartheid state everyone!

 

[Chairman Yang]

Forgive me if I'm asking a dumb question here; I'm hoping that the answers will help me grasp the situation better. My understanding is that, in the past, the Palestinians have rejected some reasonable-ish settlements. What if (under a new, less right-wing government, obviously), Israel were to unilaterally declare a Palestinian state? Let's say the terms of this new state were, again, internationally accepted as something close to reasonable.

Wouldn't it then be irrelevant if the current Palestinian leadership agrees with it or not? I'd imagine a substantial segment of the population would embrace that new state, and the rest would be left behind. I'd also think this new state would be generally hostile to Israel, but if the relationship was a state-to-state one, rather than an occupier/occupied one, could that improve things?

Again, I know this is probably a stupid notion that has been dismissed for very good reasons, but I'm interesting in understanding those specific reasons.

 

[Chichikov]

It would be/is hypocrisy 101, because the rest of the world does/has done the same thing. But hey,the only country that is in the wrong is Israel.

There aren't a whole lot of democracies who holds millions of people without basic human rights for over half a century.

No one ever said Israel is the only country who committed atrocities against ethnic minorities/local population, the issue is that they are still doing it and that they don't accept responsibility for it (in fact, its official position is that they've done nothing wrong).

 

[bwakh]

In Israel's case, the Jews historically lived there before being expelled by the Romans and went into exile. I don't fault them for not wanting to return to their homeland given any opportunity they had.

However, that does't mean Palestinians don't also have a right to live in that land and I believe they should also have their own country whenever they're ready to come to a proper agreement.

Wow.

 

[Chichikov]

Forgive me if I'm asking a dumb question here; I'm hoping that the answers will help me grasp the situation better. My understanding is that, in the past, the Palestinians have rejected some reasonable-ish settlements. What if (under a new, less right-wing government, obviously), Israel were to unilaterally declare a Palestinian state? Let's say the terms of this new state were, again, internationally accepted as something close to reasonable.

Wouldn't it then be irrelevant if the current Palestinian leadership agrees with it or not? I'd imagine a substantial segment of the population would embrace that new state, and the rest would be left behind. I'd also think this new state would be generally hostile to Israel, but if the relationship was a state-to-state one, rather than an occupier/occupied one, could that improve things?

Again, I know this is probably a stupid notion that has been dismissed for very good reasons, but I'm interesting in understanding those specific reasons.

I have no idea what are reasonable settlements, but the Palestinians don't think any settlements are acceptable, and I don't really blame them. The west bank and gaza are already tiny, divided and half landlocked country, the settlement were specifically designed to prevent a palestinian state and as such they cut whatever little land they have in ways that will make their would be country even less workable.
This is all academic anyway as the local Israeli government will never offer anything of worth to the Palestinians, at most they'll get some bantustans like enclaves.

 

[kmag]

Those who were brought by the Israeli Air Force airplanes?

The ones who were 'inoculated' with contraceptives by the state without their knowledge or consent? What a lovely inclusive society. It's a bastion of light and hope in the region don't you know.