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[Xenon]

Really considering the fact that the occupation started in 1967 and the first suicide bombing happened in 1991 (25 years, a whole generation grew up seeing Palestenian land grabbed by the settler and then occupied by the IDF) the only choices Palestenians have in my view is either going gently into the good night as Israel slowly expands over the whole region

From a different point of view

In keeping with their attempts to manipulate and control the Palestinian cause, the Arab states created the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) in Cairo in 1964. The goal of the PLO, according to its founding charter, was to use violence to liberate Palestine. In 1965, Fatah, the main faction of the PLO, began terrorist attacks against Israeli civilians and civilian installations.

I know I probably getting in over head here but, wtf. The one thing that really bothers me about your statements is you totally ignore the role of the surrounding Arab states role in the current state of things for Palestinians. If this conflict had just been between the two sides from the beginning things might have been much different. The Arab states are equal in blame for the current state of the Palestinians. They have continually latched onto their cause as an excuse to attack Israel for hatred, power plays, and land grabs. So why dont you throw a little blaim in the direction its deserved. Considering England and France were they main architechs in this whole mess to begin with, I find it funny that you place most of the blaim on the US. Since Israel's creation the Arab states have been trying to destroy it. At first they used war. Now the use funding and support for terror. They do this with little regaurd for the people they say they are trying to help. Same shit differnet decade. But yeah its all america's fault. whatever.

 

[Drozmight]

Israel is just a US-backed terrorist organization. Both sides of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict are equally as bad. Hamas bombs an Israeli market and Israel responds by... blowing up a damn apartment building. They then justify it by saying there may have a Hamas leader in it. Seriously... the only reason the UN hasn't listed Israel as a terrorist state is because the US veto's it every year.

 

[Azih]

I had a whole long post to respond to you Xenon, but that'll probably just confuse the issue as you have ignored my most important point in my last post (the motivation of the Israeli settler and how it won't disappear no matther how peaceful the Palestenians get), so I'll just ask you this.

How can you use what Arab states did more than two decades ago (I'm going to expand your point to the 1970s, where the last Arab/Israeli war was fought) to justify what Israeli settlers are doing now?

And if you aren't doing that, then how is what I said in my post weak?


Also a link that you should find interesting: http://www.al-bab.com/arab/docs/league/abdullah02.htm

 

[FightyF]

Is the ball really in their court? In a situation where even an obvious strategic ploy by Sharon to give up the unimportant Gaza Strip in exchange for solidifying the Israeli settler hold on the West Bank is met by howls of shocked outrage by extremist Israelis do you really think the Palestenians have any effect on the outcome? Really considering the fact that the occupation started in 1967 and the first suicide bombing happened in 1991 (25 years, a whole generation grew up seeing Palestenian land grabbed by the settler and then occupied by the IDF) the only choices Palestenians have in my view is either going gently into the good night as Israel slowly expands over the whole region (via extremist pioneers grabbing hilltops and then building settlements that become IDF protected or wealthy Israelis buying up parcels of Palestine when the Palestenian landowners becomes desperate enough to sell which then becomes IDF protected) or they can make Israelis pay for every inch of land in blood even though it happens at an extremely high cost to themselves.

Because the WORLD would support Palestinians if it weren't for terrorist acts carried by a few of them. Most of the World knows that Palestinians, sans terrorism, would be far more morally superior to Israel.

Because I think to myself of the Israeli best case scenario that right now the Palestenians give up all their weapons and turf out the terrorists in their midst (all attacks cease). I imagine the Israeli reaction and really the only thing I can concieve happening is that Israeli settlements would continue being built and would continue expanding as the settlers will continue to do what they've been doing (violence didn't change their minds, why would the lack of it?).

True, but the World, including most Americans, would not accept it. Many Israelis would not accept it either.

What really pisses me off is that our adminstration has totally missed the big picture. I think a peaceful resolution to the Isreal/Palestine conflict would be a key victory in the war on terror. Instead, we let common sense go right out the window and invade Iraq, creating a new conflict for terrorists to rally around.

Forget Iraq, if the US came into the region to help Palestine become a democracy, and spent a quarter of what they spent in Iraq (ie. 50 billion dollars) on rebuilding Palestine, you'd see all Arabs in the region wanting US intervention in their own nations...overnight!

Everyone's eye is on the region, it's living under occupation and their people are suffering. Help these guys, and it makes Saddam's aid to suicide bombers look laughably pathetic.

 

[Xenon]

How can you use what Arab states did more than two decades ago (I'm going to expand your point to the 1970s, where the last Arab/Israeli war was fought) to justify what Israeli settlers are doing now?

I am not saying it justifies what they are doing. But it gives reasons for how events transpired. Most of the significant land grabs by Israel occurred after these conflicts and continue today under the guise of self defense. So with a history of losing ground with each conflict why would the Palestinians continue to attack? Well maybe it’s because they are not the main aggressors. Your posts give the impression that the conflict is just between Israel & Palestine which it is obviously not. You never mention the role the Arab nations play in what has transpired and what is still going on. You blame the US for blocking measures that would favor one side. Then you completely disregard the ones who caused and still fuel the conflict. I just don’t get how it’s all the US's fault.

I guess it’s just the modern thought process. As an example, let’s say that a group who lived in a bad area wanted to have the police circle their block 5 times an hour. But for some reason they were denied. So a guy gets shot and killed. The group screams out "ITS YOUR FAULT FOR NOT DOING WHAT WE ASKED! ITS YOUR FAULT HE IS DEAD!" They focus their attention on what was not done by the government instead of trying to address the reason they need the extra patrols in the first place. Why, because it is much easy to assign blame on a responsible figure. It’s not like they can protest against criminals. So they look for someone to blame who might be able to do something. By making them the bad guy it takes the focus off of them and gives them the comfort of having a tangible adversary.

The point I am trying to make is that the plight of the Palestinians is a direct result of the war between the Arab/Muslim nations and Israel which has been going on for over 50 years. I’m not holding my breath for the both sides to assess their culpability and say “Hey we were wrong and maybe we should try to work this out.”


crying baby says that all for now

 

[FightyF]

Xenon you have a good point about Arab nations using this issue for political reasons. I can go into many reasons why, but I'm tired so if people really want me to I'll do it later.

On the other hand, these same Arab states have made jestures of good will towards Israel that Israel has turned down with no good reason. Secondly, the US's support of Israel goes against what most of the World wants to see in the region. For example, as Palestinians have asked for multinational UN peacekeeping forces in Israel, something the US has turned down. That particular situation would really cool the violence to a great degree, and it has nearly nothing to do with the neighboring Arab states that often take advantage of the plight of Palestinians.

 

[RiZ III]

JERUSALEM (CNN) -- An Israeli army commander has been cleared in the killing of a 13-year-old Palestinian girl, the Israel Defense Forces said.

The man -- who was accused by his own soldiers of repeatedly shooting the girl's body to make sure she was dead -- was cleared of wrongdoing after an internal military investigation.

Israeli soldiers shot the girl at a checkpoint near Rafah, in southern Gaza on October 5.

According to the IDF, the soldiers believed at the time that she was trying to plant a bomb she was carrying in her schoolbag. h

The girl's mother insisted that she was on her way to school when she became frightened by shooting in the area and, in her panic, ran toward the soldiers.

After it was determined that the girl was shot as many as 20 times, the incident ignited a controversy in Israel.

Two soldiers in the company contacted Israel's largest newspaper, Yediot Ahrohnot, to allege that the commander continued shooting the girl while she was on the ground after she was dead.

The commander has accused the soldiers of launching a personal vendetta against him.

The investigation found that as he approached the girl, he noticed bullets striking at his side "and shot toward the ground as he moved back," rather than shooting at the girl, according to the statement.

Military police are continuing to investigate the incident, and the commander could be removed from his duties if new evidence emerges that challenges his story, the statement said.

Lt. Gen. Moshe Ya'lon, the army chief-of-staff, "accepts the company commander's version of events whereby he fired to the ground in response to fire opened in his direction," the statement said.

"Should the company commander's version prove otherwise, he will barred for any command position in the IDF."

Meanwhile, the commander has been suspended because of "failures" in his "ability to command and in his relations with his subordinates," the IDF statement said.

A decision on the commander's future in the IDF will be made within the next week, the statement said.

No justice in this world

 

[open_mouth_]

No justice in this world

Justice will be served when he meets his maker.

 

[Forsete]

No justice in this world

Im not suprised one bit by the outcome.

 

[ge-man]

It's a disgusting world that we live in.

 

[Particle Physicist]

yeah.. that is pretty fucked.

 

[Azih]

Because the WORLD would support Palestinians if it weren't for terrorist acts carried by a few of them.

Dude, the WORLD does support the Palestenians, the only exception is the Americans. And that is because of my main point, Palestenian terrorism doesn't matter one whit to the Israeli extremist settlers, terrorism could disappear and the settlements would continue to expand, hell they'd expand faster. America is the only place where settlers aren't shown as the extremist religious land grabbers that they are and so America is the only place firmly on Israel's side (diplomatically and financially). Every other place (non muslim) sees both the Israeli bastards and the Palestenian bastards.

 

[Vibri]

The investigation found that as he approached the girl, he noticed bullets striking at his side "and shot toward the ground as he moved back," rather than shooting at the girl, according to the statement.


What a bunch of horseshit. An experienced soldier notices enemy fire, so he runs back shooting into... the ground? Into the body of a 13 year old girl?

 

[bionic77]

It is pretty fucked up that Isreal didn't do anything to this scumball, but cmon did anyone really expect them to? I think most armies would act exactly the way Isreal did, to protect their soldiers.

Still, it is sad that bastard is getting away with it.

 

[Particle Physicist]

had to bump this cause::

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/10/27/israeli.arrested/index.html


they arent letting him off that easily..

"JERUSALEM (CNN) -- Israeli military police have arrested a previously-cleared army commander after additional investigation indicated he may have lied about repeatedly shooting a 13-year-old Palestinian girl."


"The military police investigation regarding the circumstances of the killing of the Palestinian girl along the Israeli-Egyptian border near Rafah on Oct. 5, 2004, has raised suspicions that the version of events given by the company commander was false. The company commander was arrested tonight (Tuesday) by the military police and is under investigation. The chief of staff views this matter gravely. Upon the conclusion and findings of the military police investigation, the chief of staff will consider further measures."

 

[Particle Physicist]

*bump*

 

[Particle Physicist]

*burp*

 

[RiZ III]

Bah, theyll let him go again.

 

[Azih]

There's nothing to say until the verdict comes quad.

 

[PS2 KID]

I found this old story that was never posted here (I don't remember seeing it).

Arabs Brutally Murder Jewish Mother and Her 4 Children

and they were even nice to film it.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=61758

Strangest thing was that the press didn't cover it. I guess it's okay when Isrealis are shot execution style.

 

[RiZ III]

Its not a big enough story. Suicide bombings, now that freaks Americans out. Woman and child getting chopped up? That kinda stuff happens all the time in the states. Now, im not justifying it in any way, Im just trying to figure out the medias psyche. Im suprised this palestinian girls death has gotten as much attention as it has in the American media considering they never really cover Palestinian deaths in much detail.

 

[Particle Physicist]

There's nothing to say until the verdict comes quad.

i know.. i just wanted to keep it in the minds of the people who care.

 

[Soul4ger]

Its not a big enough story. Suicide bombings, now that freaks Americans out. Woman and child getting chopped up? That kinda stuff happens all the time in the states. Now, im not justifying it in any way, Im just trying to figure out the medias psyche. Im suprised this palestinian girls death has gotten as much attention as it has in the American media considering they never really cover Palestinian deaths in much detail.

Hey, there aren't any suicide bombings in GTA. But there are plenty of female killing sprees.

 

[Azih]

frankly it's the fact he shot her repeatedly over and over and over that caused the case to go as far as it has... if the commander had only shot her once, this would never have been an issue at all. And that is why the situation is so insanely crazy, only the most extreme of trangressions against Palestenians by the IDF even registers. Anything less then the most horrific of acts is jussst routine.

 

[PS2 KID]

frankly it's the fact he shot her repeatedly over and over and over that caused the case to go as far as it has... if the commander had only shot her once, this would never have been an issue at all. And that is why the situation is so insanely crazy, only the most extreme of trangressions against Palestenians by the IDF even registers. Anything less then the most horrific of acts is jussst routine.

Hey at least it got press. The story with the pregnant woman and her 4 children being murdered didn't even get press. I did find a source outside of Isreal for the news: Pregnant mother and her girls shot dead

Tali Hatuel, who was eight months pregnant, had been driving her Citroen along a nearly empty, palm-fringed road, when the gunmen opened fire on her car with automatic weapons. In the panic, she lost control and lurched off the road.

The two gunmen rushed towards her firing their automatic rifles, shooting through the windows at point blank range. There was no chance of escape for the 34-year-old mother or her young children Hila, 11, Hadar, nine, Roni, seven, and Merav, two.

Some of the children were still strapped to their seats when rescue workers arrived. They found the car riddled with bullets and the carpets drenched in blood. A sticker taped to the car read: "Uprooting the settlements, victory for terror."

Brutal enough for you? Here's the clincher: "Moments before the attack, a CNN television crew came under fire from the same gunmen."

Did I find this story on CNN's website? Absolutely not. I did find the shooting the shooting of the 13 year old Palestinian girl though. Makes you say hmmmm... doesn't it?

Edit: I did find a story related to it on CNN after much searching. One Result. It wasn't a big enough deal to get the headline.

 

[Azih]

And this news story is relevant to my post *how*?

 

[FightyF]

Hatuel was a Settler. Her kids shouldn't have to die for her crime, but the World doesn't shed a tear when a criminal dies.

 

[Particle Physicist]

Hatuel was a Settler. Her kids shouldn't have to die for her crime, but the World doesn't shed a tear when a criminal dies.

yet she should be punished by death for her 'crime' ? for all we know she could have moved there cause she was down on money and it was a temporary means to save some cash ... you just dont know.

your comment is sickening.

 

[luxsol]

Hatuel was a Settler. Her kids shouldn't have to die for her crime, but the World doesn't shed a tear when a criminal dies.

...

I hope none of you who say these types of things live in the US. I imagine people like this to be one of those who go to extreme measures to spread their causes. No better than those who bomb abortion clinics or the US military who fires on civilians dancing around burning US wreckage.

 

[videogamer]

...

I hope none of you who say these types of things live in the US. I imagine people like this to be one of those who go to extreme measures to spread their causes. No better than those who bomb abortion clinics or the US military who fires on civilians dancing around burning US wreckage.

He's a conservative Canadian. Anyways, being a settler in Israel isn't the necessarily the most admirable thing.

 

[effzee]

Hey at least it got press. The story with the pregnant woman and her 4 children being murdered didn't even get press. I did find a source outside of Isreal for the news: Pregnant mother and her girls shot dead



Brutal enough for you? Here's the clincher: "Moments before the attack, a CNN television crew came under fire from the same gunmen."

Did I find this story on CNN's website? Absolutely not. I did find the shooting the shooting of the 13 year old Palestinian girl though. Makes you say hmmmm... doesn't it?

Edit: I did find a story related to it on CNN after much searching. One Result. It wasn't a big enough deal to get the headline.

and ur point is? wait let me guess...that the media supports palestinians over israelis and thats the reason this incident was covered and so we shouldnt feel bad for the 13 yr old? do u know how many tragedies in that region on both sides occur continuously that never get covered? u can just as easily finds tons of stories on crimes against israelis where crimes against palestinians would be brushed aside under the category "revenge/rebuttal".

and on a whole im willing to bet more stories are reported on terrorism against israel and her people then the palestinians.

 

[luxsol]

He's a conservative Canadian. Anyways, being a settler in Israel isn't the necessarily the most admirable thing.

Of course, but does anyone deserve death because of that? Never.
They may be stupid, ignorant, or whatever, but they don't deserve death. To even agree that they do makes you no better than the extremists (woo for generalizations!).

 

[videogamer]

Of course, but does anyone deserve death because of that? Never.
They may be stupid, ignorant, or whatever, but they don't deserve death. To even agree that they do makes you no better than the extremists (woo for generalizations!).

I don't know whether this is directed at me or him, but I don't agree with death anywhere. Not even the death penalty. Still working on being a vegetarian though.

 

[luxsol]

I don't know whether this is directed at me or him, but I don't agree with death anywhere. Not even the death penalty. Still working on being a vegetarian though.

No, it wasn't directed at you.

And have fun with denying yourself. =P

 

[FightyF]

yet she should be punished by death for her 'crime' ?

No, I don't believe in the death penalty. But when one does die, the World isn't going to be outraged.

for all we know she could have moved there cause she was down on money and it was a temporary means to save some cash ... you just dont know.

Yes, we do know! She was on her way to protest against Sharon's plan to pull out. Obviously, she is in full support of what these Settlers are doing.

your comment is sickening.

Why? It's the truth, and as it was pointed out before, there was little Worldwide reaction to what happened, and I've explained why. I don't see how you find this explanation sickening.

I hope none of you who say these types of things live in the US. I imagine people like this to be one of those who go to extreme measures to spread their causes. No better than those who bomb abortion clinics or the US military who fires on civilians dancing around burning US wreckage.

Huh? What are you talking about? Learn to read buddy.

 

[luxsol]

Hatuel was a Settler. Her kids shouldn't have to die for her crime, but the World doesn't shed a tear when a criminal dies.

Learn to read... that you're saying that her kids shouldn't die for her crimes yet she does? That's basically agreeing that she deserved to die because of her "crimes"... which means you've also labeled her as a criminal thus should be punished. Whether or not her punishment fit her crime... you seem pretty apathetic to it by stating that the "world doesn't shed a tear." What a great indirect way of saying she got what was coming to her.

 

[FightyF]

Learn to read... that you're saying that her kids shouldn't die for her crimes yet she does?

I never said that. I never implied it either, I kinda left it up in the air I guess. But as I clarified I don't believe in the death penalty.

which means you've also labeled her as a criminal thus should be punished.

I labelled her a criminal because she is one, but I never specified what type of punishement would be appropriate, or if there should be one at all. Personally I think a deadline should be given to them to evacuate. UN peacekeepers can come in and help them pack up and leave, or pay Palestinians to compensate them for the land they've taken, that is, if the Palestinians wish to sell the land rather than have it back.

Whether or not her punishment fit her crime... you seem pretty apathetic to it by stating that the "world doesn't shed a tear."

I apologize for making my initial statement so brief, but I thought that the message would be apparent within the context it was made. You are trying to read so much out of a small statement. PS2 KID is basically wondering why there wasn't much outrage or attention to her death. I gave a simple explanation. The only part of my comment that was actually my own opinion was regarding the kids.

Upon re-reading my statement, I can see that it's incomplete, but at the same time I think you are jumping to conclusions and putting words into my mouth. You aren't twisting my words, but rather putting them in there. Perhaps my statement wasn't fully fleshed out and that caused confusion, that's an error on my part. But I take offense when people put words into my mouth, and so I hope you understand why I'm snapping back.

 

[luxsol]

Of course, we're all pretty sensitive to what others say when they appear to oppose our values or wrongly restate them.

Just wanted some clarification on your reasoning for the nonexception. Thanks.

 

[Chopin Trusty Balls]

Fight for Freedom werent you the one complaining when a Terrorist and his Family got killed in car by a Rocket?

And compared to your Post in Van Gogh thread,talk about double standards.

 

[FightyF]

Fight for Freedom werent you the one complaining when a Terrorist and his Family got killed in car by a Rocket?

Haha, wtf?

And compared to your Post in Van Gogh thread,talk about double standards.

That has to do with hate speech. This one has to do with a Settler being murdered. How can you compare the two, and arrive to such a conclusion?

Oh...hehe, just read who wrote the post...Fleming. ROFL