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[Mike Works]

What? What are you talking about Mrbob? No one is pissed they're "forced" to buy a collector's edition. They're pissed because Bioware is creating the impression they have withheld content from the regular game to put it in the LE. It creates a bad precedent, sucks for joe consumer who buys it a month down the line, etc etc. That's what sucks.

If Bioware had marketed the Limited Edition as a bonus disc that has a bonus character on it, would you be as upset?

Name one other single-platform release that had extra content in one release that was stripped from a later release (excluding censorsed stuff). You gave MK, which I didn't know about, but name another. I want to know if this really is a "common practice," because it certainly isn't for any of the games I buy.

Releasing Limited Edition's of games period isn't common practice. I have a feeling if the number of games that did what Bioware is doing equalled the number of LE console games released this generation, you'd view it as insignificant.

 

[Mrbob]

Just take a look at all the limited edition sets that have come out over the last three months. Except you are paying *more* for them in most cases. Games are called LE for a reason for the most part. What happens when they are out of retail channel? You are forced to buy the inferior regular version!

I'd be a little disgruntled too if MS/Bioware were charging $59.99 for this extra, but they aren't. They are charging the same retail price as the regular version and giving an incentive to pick up the game right away. How badly do you want this extra content? If you do buy the LE at or near launch. If you want to wait for the game to drop in price, go for it. But don't complain about missing out on extras. Bioware is a AAA company who have always created AAA games so you know Jade Empire is going to be an amazing game. So why wait when we already know this game will be great. The extra is a nice bonus for those of us going to plunk down cash right away for the game.

 

[Kobun Heat]

If Bioware had marketed the Limited Edition as a bonus disc that has a bonus character on it, would you be as upset?

It certainly wouldn't be as transparent a move.

 

[Mike Works]

It certainly wouldn't be as transparent a move.

Yeah, so lets berate them for their honesty instead of trying to decieve us.

 

[Mrbob]

*cough* Nintendo*cough*Zelda bonus disc *cough*

These are ways to entice people to BUY STUFF.

I love Super Punch Out, but the only way I can get it is with Fight Night Round 2 on GC. Conversely, I love playing games online, and the only way to do that is on Xbox or PS2 version. I don't want to buy them both so you gotta balance what you really want and go from there!

 

[Crazymoogle]

Actually, Bioware has done this with several games, notably Baldur's Gate 2 that went so far as to have a preorder bonus, and and exclusive EB only bonus, so unless you preordered from EB you got a "lesser" version.

Yeah. This is definitely nothing new, although at least BG2 looked like a winner from the start. So far I haven't seen any footage to convince me to preorder Jade Empire, let alone buy it.

 

[Nerevar]

Just take a look at all the limited edition sets that have come out over the last three months. Except you are paying *more* for them in most cases. Games are called LE for a reason for the most part. What happens when they are out of retail channel? You are forced to buy the inferior regular version!

Yes, you are paying more, but in all those "other" cases you aren't getting "extra gameplay content." The two situations aren't even remotely comparable. A t-shirt or a tin box or whatever is a physical item that requires extra cost that you are paying for (at a markup, obviously). Extra game content isn't.

How badly do you want this extra content? If you do buy the LE at or near launch. If you want to wait for the game to drop in price, go for it. But don't complain about missing out on extras.

Once again ... this has nothing to do about waiting for the price drop. How come everyone trying to defend this has to reiterate this point? Go back and read my original response to your comment on page 2. That's why I (and others) object to this content.

*cough* Nintendo*cough*Zelda bonus disc *cough*

Once again, not even comparable. That was an entirely seperate game, completely unrelated to the original one other than the fact that it was in the series. That is not content from the original WW game that was stripped out.

You (and almost everyone else defending this) seem to have missed the point. I don't mind them including "extras" to entice people to pre-order, or pay extra for an LE. but when those "extras" include game content that should be in the original game in the first place, that's when it sucks.

 

[border]

LE versions of recent console games have had "extras".....not in-game content that got gutted from the regular version. I think that's where most of my problem lies. I'm happy to go without soundtracks, emulated games, or "Making Of" stuff, but if the most complete version of the ACTUAL game is going to be the launch version then that's messed up. I doubt that there's anyone in this thread that can say that they haven't "discovered" a good game months or even years after it came out......and chances are that they'd be annoyed if this gem wasn't available in the most proper form (outside of a collector's market).

 

[Kobun Heat]

Yeah, so lets berate them for their honesty instead of trying to decieve us.

It's not that, it's that their honesty (or more to the point, their lack of attempt to cover up the real nature of the "bonus") makes it easier to figure out exactly what's going on.

*cough* Nintendo*cough*Zelda bonus disc *cough*

Hey everybody: I've got these apples. Can you tell me how many oranges they're worth?

 

[Mike Works]

Once again, not even comparable. That was an entirely seperate game, completely unrelated to the original one other than the fact that it was in the series. That is not content from the original WW game that was stripped out.

You (and almost everyone else defending this) seem to have missed the point. I don't mind them including "extras" to entice people to pre-order, or pay extra for an LE. but when those "extras" include game content that should be in the original game in the first place, that's when it sucks.

So taking out 1 extra playable character is terrible but not offering an exclusive never released remix of one of the most popular games of all time is okay?

 

[Nerevar]

So taking out 1 extra playable character is terrible but not offering an exclusive never released remix of one of the most popular games of all time is okay?

Yes, it is. The difference is that one of those requires that you actively remove content from the game in order to pressure people into buying a more "complete" version. The other example is that they are providing you with an extra item, in this case a remixed version of a classic game, in order to buy it. You don't lose anything from the original game by not getting the classic zelda versions. You do lose something when they change the content of the game.

 

[Mike Works]

It's not that, it's that their honesty (or more to the point, their lack of attempt to cover up the real nature of the "bonus") makes it easier to figure out exactly what's going on.

It's not that? It's exactly that. You taking that post and quoting it in the way you did cannot be construed in any other way than a negative connotation.

 

[TekunoRobby]

Hey everybody: I've got these apples. Can you tell me how many oranges they're worth?

HOLD ON LET ME RUN THE NUMBERS...

http://www.webcalc.net/calc/0284.php

 

[Kobun Heat]

It's not that? It's exactly that. You taking that post and quoting it in the way you did cannot be construed in any other way than a negative connotation.

Not really. But perhaps I've been less than comprehensive, so here are my thoughts in detail:

1. Had they included the "extra" character on a seperate disc, then only a few hard-to-please folks would be speculating that Bioware was ripping people off and could have just put the "extra" character onto the main disc. Most everyone else would believe (incorrectly, in this hypothetical scenario) that the "extra" content simply wouldn't fit on the main disc.

2. But since they're printing two seperate one-disc versions of the game -- one with the guy and one without -- it's one hundred percent clear that the character is being sliced from the normal edition in order to make the limited edition more enticing.

3. Ergo, more complaints (even though having the extra character on the same disc is technically preferable to the scenario described in 1. above).

Appendix. I only care about this in the abstract; I have no designs on buying Jade Empire. I cared slightly about Midway Arcade Treasures though which is why I posted.

 

[The Faceless Master]

after reading all these new responses i am thoroughly convinced that as a consumer, i should not and will not buy jade empire.

i won't be forced into preordering with their pressure tactics, and i won't go hunting around for the full game after release.

 

[Mike Works]

Not really. But perhaps I've been less than comprehensive, so here are my thoughts in detail:

1. Had they included the "extra" character on a seperate disc, then only a few hard-to-please folks would be speculating that Bioware was ripping people off and could have just put the "extra" character onto the main disc. Most everyone else would believe (incorrectly, in this hypothetical scenario) that the "extra" content simply wouldn't fit on the main disc.

2. But since they're printing two seperate one-disc versions of the game -- one with the guy and one without -- it's one hundred percent clear that the character is being sliced from the normal edition in order to make the limited edition more enticing.

3. Ergo, more complaints (even though having the extra character on the same disc is technically preferable to the scenario described in 1. above).

Appendix. I only care about this in the abstract; I have no designs on buying Jade Empire. I cared slightly about Midway Arcade Treasures though which is why I posted.

See, you're adding exactly nothing to this conversation at all though. It was already long established that they're cutting it from the game and being upfront about it. You're not typing anything that hasn't been said or universally implied.

 

[Hero]

If this is going to become an industry standard then it's pretty sad that companies need to do that.

Didn't buy Street Fighter III at launch? No Akuma for you!
Didn't buy Halo 2 at launch? No Ghosts in multiplayer for you!
Didn't buy Kingdom Hearts 2 at launch? No Sephiroth for you!

Is that a good thing? I'm all about Limited Edition bonuses. Tin boxes, art cells, t-shirts, soundtracks, making of DVD, that's cool.

Some people might not have the money to buy the game right away, and other people might not know about it until later down the line, and I imagine a lot of people will get an Xbox further down the line and then get this game but be screwed out of a character.

 

[Teknopathetic]

"Didn't buy Street Fighter III at launch? No Akuma for you!
Didn't buy Halo 2 at launch? No Ghosts in multiplayer for you!
Didn't buy Kingdom Hearts 2 at launch? No Sephiroth for you!"

You do realize how piss poor that analogy is, right?

 

[Kobun Heat]

See, you're adding exactly nothing to this conversation at all though. It was already long established that they're cutting it from the game and being upfront about it. You're not typing anything that hasn't been said or universally implied.

The wry observation that Bioware could have avoided all but the slightest murmurs of discontent had they added a layer of obfuscation -- that ironically would have additionally hampered the player's experience -- was already on the record? If so, my apologies for producing nothing but echolalia.

 

[Mike Works]

Didn't buy Halo 2 at launch? No Ghosts in multiplayer for you!

Yeah that's a pretty stupid analogy.

The wry observation that Bioware could have avoided all but the slightest murmurs of discontent had they added a layer of obfuscation -- that ironically would have additionally hampered the player's experience -- was already on the record? If so, my apologies for producing nothing but echolalia.

It was, and your apology is accepted.

 

[Hero]

I would've put Master Chief instead, I suppose that would've been a better analogy.

I just think they could've done it better. Like, hey, pre-order, get a demo disc that allows you to play as the monk for a while. When you pick up the retail version of the game, you can continue playing as that character or add him to your party when you start a new game.

 

[Teknopathetic]

"I would've put Master Chief instead, I suppose that would've been a better analogy."

that would've been even worse. A better analogy is:

"Didn't buy Halo 2 at launch? No dark grey color for suits in multiplayer for you!"

 

[Hero]

"I would've put Master Chief instead, I suppose that would've been a better analogy."

that would've been even worse. A better analogy is:

"Didn't buy Halo 2 at launch? No dark grey color for suits in multiplayer for you!"

But the content they're removing from J.E. actually is a part of the gameplay. If it were a costume or whatever, it wouldn't bug me so much. Oh well. I'm not going to vocalize my opinion anymore, I was going to wait on the game anyway.

 

[Mike Works]

Comparing it to ANYTHING Halo multiplayer is stupid, because that would effect the balance of the game against other players.

An apt analogy would be taking out a snowboarder or skateboarder in Amped or Tony Hawk. He has his own moveset, but that doesn't give him a discernable advantage over the other characters.

 

[Drek]

then that creates a more content-complete product

Well, I guess thats where our opinions differ then, because I don't see DVDs that happen to include extra scenes in the movie from the original theatrical release to be by default the more complete version, unless the new content was originally removed against the creator's wishes (i.e. Bladerunner) or because of length/time restrictions (LotR). Many other movies include deleted scenes that the production team chose to remove because it didn't seem entirely relevant. This is exactly where Bioware has gotten their previous pre-order bonuses, from the enormous pile of extra content that didn't seem relevant to the game itself, but that they happened to like during development. In Baldur's Gate it was restricted to weapons, items, and NPCs, in Jade Empire it just happens to be a playable character.

Lets take Metal Gear Solid 3 as a hypothetical example. We all know Kojima had other bosses in the works but he and his team didn't find any way that they fit particularly well in the game itself. Had Kojima included a small trail off the beaten path that one could progress down and fight said enemy, completely outside and with no relevance to the main storyline, he in no way would have delivered a more complete version of Metal Gear Solid 3 because the character had no relevance to the game as a whole.

 

[Blimblim]

One thing that may not have been mentionned before (only read page 1&3 sorry) is that the limited edition character had never been announced or shown before. So in that sense it's not like you are losing anything you thought you'd be getting in the first place anyway.
Take a look at all the videos of the game, this character has never been in the character selection screen before. All others were there since day one.

 

[Do The Mario]

People don’t fuckin stress.


Baldur’s gate 2 collectors edition came with Extra shops which were released in future patches.

People with XB live will be able to download this stuff in a few months.

Plus it’s only one character get the fuck over it, now I am off to suck Biowares huge Canadian penis.

 

[GashPrex]

I seem to remember wow collector's edition coming with an extra in-game tag along character(who does nothing) and a bunch of other stuff - and you had to pay for it.

 

[Ryudo]

I cant believe some of you, its pathetic. This is a freebie for buying the LE disc, not bioware removing a character to make a LE disc.

I fucking swear, consumers are stupid :lol

 

[shpankey]

Can't believe people are complaining about this. Just preorder the motherfucker if you want the extra shit. Otherwise you obviously didn't want it that fucking bad now did you?

 

[rastex]

I think you've all been successfully trolled for 120 replies. Be smart people, don't feed them.

 

[Catchpenny]

If Bioware shot a "Making Of Jade Empire" documentary for the limited edition, or included something like MDK/MDK2 for no additional charge, I'd be interested in preordering. See, documentaries and seperate games are actual EXTRAS.

No one is objecting to a company trying to encourage preorders and rewarding its most loyal customers. However, loyalty works both ways. If you want me to put down money for your product before any reviews are available, go the extra mile for me.

The OoT bonus disc created a lot of buzz because a notoriously stingy company was saying, "Hey, thanks for preordering. We know you hardcore Zelda fans have been curious about this Ura-Zelda for a long time, so here you go." People who don't care for that kind of stuff were able to get Wind Waker unaltered, and the more ardent Zelda fans got a nice bonus. Sure, it probably took one intern a week to make, but it's a lot better than printing "gold" discs for preorders only. Or removing character skins from the regular product.

Offering additional content to promote preorders > Removing content to promote preorders. Simple as that. This doesn't make Bioware the great Satan of videogame developers or anything, but I'm sure not preordering Jade Empire or rushing out to buy it on the first day.

 

[Do The Mario]

Offering additional content to promote preorders > Removing content to promote preorders..

What did they remove?

 

[Tellaerin]

"Didn't buy Street Fighter III at launch? No Akuma for you!
Didn't buy Halo 2 at launch? No Ghosts in multiplayer for you!
Didn't buy Kingdom Hearts 2 at launch? No Sephiroth for you!"

You do realize how piss poor that analogy is, right?

It's not piss-poor at all. It's a perfect analogy for what's going on here. The fact that you consider the version without an extra character 'complete' because 'that character was going to be cut anyway' is irrelevant. The bottom line is, one version of the game is shipping with an extra playable character and the other is not. If you want the one that has all the content, you'd better buy it at launch, or you lose out.

I wouldn't mind companies releasing a regular and premium edition like this if both were going to remain in production indefinitely. An arrangement where the SE version with the extra character would normally retail for $5 more than the 'regular' version, but people who preorder get it for the regular price as a bonus would be a lot less difficult for me to swallow. Don't get me wrong--I don't like the idea of multiple versions of the same game being released at different price points, either. I just find it more palatable than this 'preorder or you lose' campaign, because at least it guarantees that anyone who's interested can always go to their local retailer and purchase the version of the game with all the released content, even if it costs a little extra. No 'well, maybe there'll be a booster disc or Live update, but nobody knows when or if that'll happen, so you'd better rush to your local retailer and help boost our preorder numbers so we can hype first-day sales of this title' crap.

 

[Azih]

The monk is a nice extra skin. And since the game has around two dozen fighting styles, one extra one (Monk Spade) amounts to a very nice extra and nothing more.

The best analogy is people who preordered City of Heroes got to have a 'special' power when they got in the game. NCsoft weren't unfair asses in doing that, and Bioware/MS aren't unfair asses in doing this.

 

[Nerevar]

I cant believe some of you, its pathetic. This is a freebie for buying the LE disc, not bioware removing a character to make a LE disc.

I fucking swear, consumers are stupid :lol

Right, consumers are stupid :lol. Because it certainly didn't require more effort on the part of Bioware to create a seperate release with less content than the original release in order to convince you to preorder.

I fucking swear, some boardmembers are stupid.

And to repeat: This thread =

Apparently "some" of you think this is an ok "bonus" for bioware to include. Some of us feel that, at some point, they are ripping off the consumer (whether it's me or some other joe who buys it later on down the line, it doesn't matter, because I actually care about other human beings and how corporations treat them). This isn't going to change by us constantly calling the other side stupid.

 

[Ryudo]

Right, consumers are stupid :lol. Because it certainly didn't require more effort on the part of Bioware to create a seperate release with less content than the original release in order to convince you to preorder.

I fucking swear, some boardmembers are stupid.

And to repeat: This thread =

Apparently "some" of you think this is an ok "bonus" for bioware to include. Some of us feel that, at some point, they are ripping off the consumer (whether it's me or some other joe who buys it later on down the line, it doesn't matter, because I actually care about other human beings and how corporations treat them). This isn't going to change by us constantly calling the other side stupid.

Get over it. You are nothing more than winging idiot. Bioware did not remove anything from the game, but actually added extra content for those smart enough to pre-order.

Consumers are stupid, yourself being a prime example. Lets all cry that bioware offer an incentive to pick up their software early. What right do they have to give us more for our money and reward us for paying full price for their software ? :lol

End of story, STFU and grow a brain.

 

[Nerevar]

Get over it. You are nothing more than winging idiot. Bioware did not remove anything from the game, but actually added extra content for those smart enough to pre-order.

Consumers are stupid, yourself being a prime example. Lets all cry that bioware offer an incentive to pick up their software early. What right do they have to give us more for our money and reward us for paying full price for their software ? :lol

End of story, STFU and grow a brain.

:lol

another one of the people on this forum who can only engage in intelligent discourse and reasoned debate. With such stunning arguments as "consumers are stupid, yourself being a prime example" and "STFU and grow a brain", how could I argue?

Or, I could point out that there is no logical reason to have a character be in one version of a game and not another, because both are being released at the same time and therefore the content exists. I could reiterate that it actually takes more effort for them to include a "limited edition" that has an extra character than it does to actually include that character in all games. I could point out that this whole fucking argument is tired and has been debated by people with much more class and dignity than forum bottom-dwellers who resort to idiocy as if it somehow makes their point more valid. But doing so might actually be a use of "logic" and "intelligence," and I dare not do things like that to a person who might respond with such crushing intellectual blows of "you're so dumb LOL:lol!!!"

 

[Ryudo]

:lol

another one of the people on this forum who can only engage in intelligent discourse and reasoned debate. With such stunning arguments as "consumers are stupid, yourself being a prime example" and "STFU and grow a brain", how could I argue?

Or, I could point out that there is no logical reason to have a character be in one version of a game and not another, because both are being released at the same time and therefore the content exists. I could reiterate that it actually takes more effort for them to include a "limited edition" that has an extra character than it does to actually include that character in all games. I could point out that this whole fucking argument is tired and has been debated by people with much more class and dignity than forum bottom-dwellers who resort to idiocy as if it somehow makes their point more valid. But doing so might actually be a use of "logic" and "intelligence," and I dare not do things like that to a person who might respond with such crushing intellectual blows of "you're so dumb LOL:lol!!!"

You cant argue. I am not the one complaining about getting stuff for free by pre-ordering a game :lol

Its black and white here, you are so far off the mark, heres some "logic";

1. Bioware didnt remove anything from the game that was previously announced.
2. They added a character for those who pre-order the game.

Hail mary, do you understand yet ? Want me to spell it out again ?

 

[Nerevar]

Its black and white here, you are so far off the mark, heres some "logic";

1. Bioware didnt remove anything from the game that was previously announced.
2. They added a character for those who pre-order the game.

Your missing the point entirely. Bioware didn't announce the character OR the fighting style, but they've created it in the first place. They decided to add it into the special edition ... but why not also add it to the regular version? What is preventing them? The only reason to not add it to the regular edition is to boost the pre-order totals. You're looking at it entirely from the marketing perspective. They want you to think you get an extra character for pre-ordering. But, from my perspective, this is content that apparently is good enough to make the final cut into the regular game - therefore it should be in every version of the regular game. Adding it for the sole reason of boosting pre-orders is "good for the company" but "bad for consumers," and I'm generally opposed to anything that is bad for consumers. Your parroted repetition of marketing rhetoric just demonstrates you don't understand exactly why bioware is doing it, or you don't care when a company takes the interests of the consumer for granted.

Edit: And I'm not going to respond to this anymore. See any one of the numerous other posts in this thread to counterpoint any idiotic response that might be made. This topic has been debated to death, and I've had to post the dead horse pic twice. Both sides have made their stances known, and us sitting here calling eachother idiots isn't going to change the fact that we both feel the other person is an ignorant moron.

 

[Ryudo]

and us sitting here calling eachother idiots isn't going to change the fact that we both feel the other person is an ignorant moron.

I like your style !

 

[IJoel]

For some reason this reminds me of the "sparks" thread.

 

[LukeSmith]

Character will be downloadable content and/or on demo disc.

 

[Scott]

Its black and white here, you are so far off the mark, heres some "logic";

1. Bioware didnt remove anything from the game that was previously announced.
2. They added a character for those who pre-order the game.

Yay for misinformation!

From Bioware's forums:

Chris Priestly
Quality Assurance

People were asking what happened to Monk Zeng and now we can say. He was kept back as the Pre-order character and his cool Monk Spade weapon will be going with him.

Now you know.

It's a character that was present before (note the "People were asking what happened to Monk Zeng..."), and then went missing from the more recent builds of the game. Also, as you can see from the quote, he was "kept back" for the pre-order bonus.

Case closed.


Anyway, if anything, I just find the bonus "odd." When I think of Limited Edition content, I don't think "an extra character" or... any small gameplay addition really. But that seems to be something Bioware has been doing for awhile (I just found that out yesterday, actually ), and odd or not, it's really not something to be too surprised about. Or get all up-in-arms about. I mean, really.

That said, is the character even worth pre-ordering for? I don't personally think so. The "Making Of..." disc, on the other hand...

 

[Volt]

Exactly, I'd pre-order it just for the "Making of.." disc ! Huge fan of Bioware's ever since the original Baldur's Gate, so I wouldn't mind having a look behind the scenes in their development studios. And as for the extra character and other "bonus" content for the people who pre-order. Well I guess it's not really a very clever move (at least with Baldur's Gate 2 the "gameplay bonuses" weren't all that dramatic : some extra items and NPCs to chat to), actually going out of their way to first create a character, then removing it from the game, and then later adding it again just so they can slap "Limited Edition Pre-Order Version" on the box.

Nevertheless, I haven't played a bad Bioware game before, and I'm pretty sure I'll be pre-ordering Jade Empire as well. I'm pretty sure that people who are more sceptical about the game's quality (i.e. don't wanna rush out and pre-order before the reviews are in), will get a chance to download the extra content as well later on...

 

[Sysgen]

JE is already on the EB bestsellers coming soon list, 2 months before release, so this got someones attention.

Xenosaga II PS2
PSP Starter Bundle PSP
SW: Knights Old II PC
Jade Empire LE XBX

 

[Mr_Furious]

I'm confident the LE will also be available at larger chains that don't have a substantial pre-order program. Stores like Target, Best Buy, and Fry's will probably receive them as well.

 

[Shouta]

Pretty lame move on Bioware's part. They shouldn't have made it so transparent as Kobun points out.