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[Angry Grimace]

Yuki encompasses the entirety of "The Japanese"? Come on, man.

No, this is a well-known issue in Japan - there have been several controversies over casting bigger-name Chinese/non-Japanese Asian actors and actresses over Japanese people in foreign films that depict Japanese people.

...or you know a Japanese-American actress play her? We do have those here...

I'm not surprised though, there's always been a Japanese sentiment that they are the superior Asians.

The problem is that they had two options because "casting a Japanese actor" was never a realistic option to make the movie with that kind of budget. The only financially feasible options were casting Scarlett and embracing the Japanese-ness of the movie and hope audiences could look past the fact that the actors aren't Japanese, or two, re-imagine the plot to not reference Japan at all. They went with the former, but the latter has a lot of obvious issues as well.

 

[Poor GRIMES]

I'm not going to entertain the opinions of native Asians on this matter when:

1. It doesn't affect them.
2. They have their own media that is representative of them.
3. We aren't as laser focused on casting certain ethnicities to roles that are "built for them."

 

[4Tran]

No, this is a well-known issue in Japan - there have been several controversies over casting bigger-name Chinese/non-Japanese Asian actors and actresses over Japanese people in foreign films that depict Japanese people.

Memoirs of a Geisha was probably the best example of this. Even better, the casting choice in that film managed to tick off both Japanese and Chinese audiences.

 

[mckmas8808]

I'm not suggesting this is a conscious thought, but consider that you're suggesting that a specific social value held by Japanese people living in Japan is less valid because in the West, we don't actually care about that value.

I honestly feel like there's a legitimate lack of respect for foreign values amongst supposedly liberal westerners. And trust me, I'm aware that it gets dicey when those values directly conflict with our own (e.g. socially-accepted misogyny), but the concept that Japanese people might be more upset about being lumped together with "asians" isn't exactly black-or-white. The argument laid out by the person in the OP is that nobody would realistically confuse Scarlett as Japanese, which is why they found it non-offensive.

And what others here (and some of those liberal westerners) are saying is that they found it offensive or just wrong to throw in a white lady to play the part. Especially doing it with the intention to "spur" sales.

There's a reason why a black American like myself would have a problem with it too. We are sick and tired of being told that certain movies can't star a black person because it doesn't sell overseas. Then they choose a white person and the movie bombs overseas and the same Hollywood execs don't hold that against white people. They just do the same thing all over again 2 years later.

 

[Stilton Disco]

This should come as no surprise to anyone other than Americans.

The rest of the world has a far more complicated, millenias long view of race and ethnicity that's far more complicated than the simple broad similarities in appearance Americans are obsessed with.

 

[lightskintwin]

The problem was calling anime/western adaptations as Whitewashing. Sure it's Western-washing but that's the point. A Hollywood studio/production company doesn't buy an Asian fictional commercial property in order to adapt it to the west only for them to cast Asians in the lead. It would defeat the purpose. That's the harsh reality, and since Hollywood is a business, why would they even take on that risk?

Not to mention if they were to cast an Asian lead, they would take their chances with Native Asian actors who are already regional, national, or international stars.

Now there could be an untapped or underserved market that Hollywood is missing out on by not casting Asian Americans in their films. However it's going to take somebody (most likely Asian American)to prove it, before Hollywood even starts considering it.

Warner Brothers is at least giving it a shot with the adaptation of Crazy Rich Asians.

 

[Zoe]

The problem was calling anime/western adaptations as Whitewashing. Sure it's Western-washing but that's the point. A Hollywood studio/production company doesn't buy an Asian fictional commercial property in order to adapt it to the west only for them to cast Asians in the lead. It would defeat the purpose. That's the harsh reality, and since Hollywood is a business, why would they even take on that risk?

Not to mention if they were to cast an Asian lead, they would take their chances with Native Asian actors who are already regional, national, or international stars.

They could have easily made it a fully Western adaptation, but they tried to have their cake and eat it too. They had no obligation to retain all of the Eastern influences but by doing so it just made the whitewashing stand out even more.

 

[antibolo]

I'm honestly surprised that a thread that uses "social justice warrior" unironically in the OP has been going on for 7 pages without being locked.

 

[SuperStiltzkin]

I'm honestly surprised that a thread that uses "social justice warrior" unironically in the OP has been going on for 7 pages without being locked.

And saying that Japanese have "'different' (read better) idea of identity politics than Asian Americans could ever dream of" fuck off OP.

 

[Haly]

"Whitewashing isn't as bad as Chinese/Koreanwashing".

Yep, that's more or less in line with what I'd expect.

 

[lightskintwin]

They could have easily made it a fully Western adaptation, but they tried to have their cake and eat it too. They had no obligation to retain all of the Eastern influences but by doing so it just made the whitewashing stand out even more.

It's a future Sci-fi Asian country that's multicultural with a White actress playing an android with a Japanese consciousness. It all works thematically within the film.

However it's definitely tone deaf in context of racial politics of the Real World.

They were better off either not addressing it or actualy going deeper in exploring it with some social commentary.

 

[Hypron]

I'm honestly surprised that a thread that uses "social justice warrior" unironically in the OP has been going on for 7 pages without being locked.

Yep, what is this, 4chan?

 

[mckmas8808]

This should come as no surprise to anyone other than Americans.

The rest of the world has a far more complicated, millenias long view of race and ethnicity that's far more complicated than the simple broad similarities in appearance Americans are obsessed with.

So why is the default, "put a white person as the lead" okay then?

It's a future Sci-fi Asian country that's multicultural with a White actress playing an android with a Japanese consciousness. It all works thematically within the film.

However it's definitely tone deaf in context of racial politics of the Real World.

They were better off either not addressing it or actualy going deeper in exploring it with some social commentary.

OR just hire a Japanese actress to do it! I hear from people like you all the time saying that Hollywood sees it as too risky to make the lead an Asian person. Yet this movie is on track to lose $60 MILLION! How is putting another white person as the lead of a film that should have been given to an Asian actor/actress less risky?

When will Hollywood learn? Or it could just be that old racism seeping through.

 

[lightskintwin]

So why is the default, "put a white person as the lead" okay then?

Because Hollywood is predominately White and that's historically how they've cast.

 

[mckmas8808]

Because Hollywood is predominately White and that's historically how they've cast.

Yes lol......I think we know the straight answer, but clearly the OP and the poster Stilton Disco should understand why that's problematic.

 

[SolicitorPirate]

I'm pretty sure most east asians know far more about our own pretty fucked up identity politics.

We do. But it won't stop white people on GAF lecturing us about it

 

[lightskintwin]

OR just hire a Japanese actress to do it! I hear from people like you all the time saying that Hollywood sees it as too risky to make the lead an Asian person. Yet this movie is on track to lose $60 MILLION! How is putting another white person as the lead of a film that should have been given to an Asian actor/actress less risky?

When will Hollywood learn? Or it could just be that old racism seeping through.

Why would Hollywood studios/producers even buy the rights and adapt it for the West if they were going to cast a Japanese actress as lead? Might as well let Japan make their own movie.

It's because it's their money they're putting up, therefore it's up to them to determine what risks they're willing to take or not no matter how real or imagined it is. Keep it real, if you were an investor in this film, would you be more likely to greenlight this big budget film with ScarJo as lead or an unknown Asian American actress?

Hollywood will be slow to learn because it goes against what it's designed to do. The issue is systemic and the way to fix it isn't going to be at the top but at the bottom.

 

[sephi22]

SJW is a very old term that was once neutral or positive, but is now considered negative. I don't understand why some people just shut down any discussion upon hearing that term, while we've seen numerous examples of said SJWs existing, who are so passionate (to put it lightly) about their cause that they bully or inflict pain upon others. See: Hula hoop Lyft girl. The term is used often and is popular enough that we can get past this 'anyone who uses SJW unironically is a troll', though I admit it is a term thrown around and used badly by reddit/channers/alt right, another one being 'socialism'.

Having said that, being a POC, I do believe whitewashing's a pretty shitty thing to do. My race isn't glamorous enough to get leading roles in Hollywood, and our representatives aren't brave enough to ask for leading roles or raise a stink about lack of representation. I haven't watched Gits, and I would've preferred an Asian actress, but it seems the movie's script is shoddy enough to make it an in-flight movie for me at best. Also, regarding OP's use of the term SJW, I can admit that they didn't use it well. The people complaining about the whitewashing aren't SJWs. It's a pretty reasonable thing to complain about.

 

[lightskintwin]

Yes lol......I think we know the straight answer, but clearly the OP and the poster Stilton Disco should understand why that's problematic.

Hollywood doesn't view lack of Asian Americans in their films as problematic. Clearly Asian American/Western producers and directors don't either. Which IMO is the bigger problem and where real change can start.

 

[AnathemicOne]

I'm so confused, is the OP trolling or being sarcastic? Regardless, it's getting tiring having asian americans being the new hot take on GAF every other week here on OT.

 

[4Tran]

I'm so confused, is the OP trolling or being sarcastic? Regardless, it's getting tiring having asian americans being the new hot take on GAF every other week here on OT.

The usage of "Social Justice Warrior" is a dead giveaway.

 

[The Artisan]

I'm so confused, is the OP trolling or being sarcastic? Regardless, it's getting tiring having asian americans being the new hot take on GAF every other week here on OT.

it's been a hot topic lately with the likes of iron fist and ghost in the shell.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

No, this is a well-known issue in Japan - there have been several controversies over casting bigger-name Chinese/non-Japanese Asian actors and actresses over Japanese people in foreign films that depict Japanese people.



The problem is that they had two options because "casting a Japanese actor" was never a realistic option to make the movie with that kind of budget. The only financially feasible options were casting Scarlett and embracing the Japanese-ness of the movie and hope audiences could look past the fact that the actors aren't Japanese, or two, re-imagine the plot to not reference Japan at all. They went with the former, but the latter has a lot of obvious issues as well.

White unknowns get cast all the time. You're never going to get breakout Asian-American stars if they're never cast. If feasibility was the concern they would have gotten a lead that cost a lot less than ScarJo and come up with a better screenplay

 

[GuitarAtomik]

The problem was calling anime/western adaptations as Whitewashing. Sure it's Western-washing but that's the point. A Hollywood studio/production company doesn't buy an Asian fictional commercial property in order to adapt it to the west only for them to cast Asians in the lead. It would defeat the purpose. That's the harsh reality, and since Hollywood is a business, why would they even take on that risk?

Not to mention if they were to cast an Asian lead, they would take their chances with Native Asian actors who are already regional, national, or international stars.

Now there could be an untapped or underserved market that Hollywood is missing out on by not casting Asian Americans in their films. However it's going to take somebody (most likely Asian American)to prove it, before Hollywood even starts considering it.

Warner Brothers is at least giving it a shot with the adaptation of Crazy Rich Asians.

No, I think "white washing" is on point. That is unless you can point out a rash of minority roles predominantly being given to other minorities. True "western-washing" already has a word which is "westernization" and, though related, isn't really the same thing. Or more specifically, it encompasses more than changing ethnicities.

 

[lightskintwin]

No, I think "white washing" is on point. That is unless you can point out a rash of minority roles predominantly being given to other minorities. True "western-washing" already has a word which is "westernization" and, though related, isn't really the same thing. Or more specifically, it encompasses more than changing ethnicities.

There's a big difference beteeen casting Mickey Rooney or John Wayne as an actual Asian than casting ScarJo as an android in an American adaptation of a Japanese fictional commercial property that Hollywood bought the rights from a Japanese company with the intent to do just that.

I already see plenty of articles calling Death Note white washing. I think misusing that term does't help.

 

[Zoe]

There's a big difference beteeen casting Mickey Rooney or John Wayne as an actual Asian than casting ScarJo as an android in an American adaptation of a Japanese fictional commercial property that Hollywood bought the rights from a Japanese company with the intent to do just that.

I already see plenty of articles calling Death Note white washing. I think misusing that term does't help.

The former is yellow-face, not whitewashing.

 

[GuitarAtomik]

There's a big difference beteeen casting Mickey Rooney or John Wayne as an actual Asian than casting ScarJo as an android in an American adaptation of a Japanese fictional commercial property that Hollywood bought the rights from a Japanese company with the intent to do just that.

We have a specific name for that too which is "yellowface". Again, directly related issue but that's generally not what people mean by "white washing" today and it most definitely is still a pretty clear and accurate term.

I already see plenty of articles calling Death Note white washing. I think misusing that term does't help.

I can totally agree with you that that's a misuse of the term and likely being thrown out there because it's a particularly sensitive subject right now. From all accounts, Death Note is a westernization of the anime.

 

[lightskintwin]

The former is yellow-face, not whitewashing.

And yet it's also been called White washing.

It appears any American/Western adaptation of Japanese anime/manga from now on is now whitewashing if it doesn't at least have an Asian lead.

 

[GuitarAtomik]

The former is yellow-face, not whitewashing.

And yet it's also been called White washing.

It appears any American/Western adaptation of Japanese anime/manga from now on is now whitewashing if it doesn't at least have an Asian lead.

Yellowface generally is/was whitewashing, but that's because it was generally used to put a white actor in a role that should have been played by an Asian actor, for the purposes of adding "star power". White washing in general is literally the same practice, just without pretending the actor is Asian. You can do yellowface without it being whitewashing (usual for tasteless comedy). That's why they're related, but specific issues and why there's a specific term for it.

 

[lightskintwin]

Yellowface generally is/was whitewashing, but that's because it was generally used to put a white actor in a role that should have been played by an Asian actor, for the purposes of adding "star power". White washing in general is literally the same practice, just without pretending the actor is Asian. You can do yellowface without it being whitewashing (usual for tasteless comedy). That's why they're related, but specific issues and why there's a specific term for it.

However surely adapting it covers it even if it obnoxiously deraults to White.

 

[GuitarAtomik]

However surely adapting it covers it even if it obnoxiously deraults to White.

Not sure I understand what you mean. Covers what? Do you mean adapting it automatically covers as whitewashing?

 

[lightskintwin]

Not sure I understand what you mean. Covers what? Do you mean adapting it automatically covers as whitewashing?

Covers it from not being whitewashing.

 

[kswiston]

Not sure I understand what you mean. Covers what? Do you mean adapting it automatically covers as whitewashing?

I think it depends on the nature of the adaptation.

If they completely change the setting and context, as they did with The Departed, it's not white-washing. They took the general premise and plot of the Hong Kong original, and completely adapted it to be about Irish Bostonians and the mob.

If they keep the original Asian setting and characters, but then cast a bunch of white actors to be the originally Asian leads, I think that you can make the argument for white-washing, despite it being an adaptation.

 

[lupinko]

I am trying to think what would have happened if they'd have cast a Chinese or Korean actress like what was done with Memoirs of a Geisha. Would it be no different to the castings of George Lazenby or Pierce Brosnan as Bond?

They've cast Rain to play Japanese characters and Cary Hiroyuki Tagawa has played numerous non-Japanese other East Asian roles. If said actress has the star power then it would have been no different.

Ken Watanabe actually said the same when the Memoirs of a Geisha thing happened.

And no, Rinko Kikuchi is never going to happen.

 

[GuitarAtomik]

Covers it from not being whitewashing.

Ah yes. A fully westernized adaptation can usual sidestep the whitewashing issue. No one knocks The Departed for not having Asian leads. The issue comes when a lot of the culturally specific elements are borrowed or still used (ie the Neo Tokyo setting) but the acting parts still go to white actors. This is one of the issues people throw out there for Death Note since they're still using the Kira moniker (which is a bad phonetic translation from Japanese for Killer), but I think it's too early to knock it for that without seeing the context in the movie.

I think it depends on the nature of the adaptation.

If they completely change the setting and context, as they did with The Departed, it's not white-washing. They took the general premise and plot of the Hong Kong original, and completely adapted it to be about Irish Bostonians and the mob.

If they keep the original Asian setting and characters, but then cast a bunch of white actors to be the originally Asian leads, I think that you can make the argument for white-washing, despite it being an adaptation.

Yeah basically this.

 

[Boss Doggie]

I think it depends on the nature of the adaptation.

If they completely change the setting and context, as they did with The Departed, it's not white-washing. They took the general premise and plot of the Hong Kong original, and completely adapted it to be about Irish Bostonians and the mob.

If they keep the original Asian setting and characters, but then cast a bunch of white actors to be the originally Asian leads, I think that you can make the argument for white-washing, despite it being an adaptation.

this seriously

I mean, are people seriously saying a plot about a mystery is told from different perspectives via different witnesses, or a plot of seven skilled warriors training a village to fend for themselves, is whitewashing

 

[lightskintwin]

Ah yes. A fully westernized adaptation can usual sidestep the whitewashing issue. No one knocks The Departed for not having Asian leads. The issue comes when a lot of the culturally specific elements are borrowed or still used (ie the Neo Tokyo setting) but the acting parts still go to white actors. This is one of the issues people throw out there for Death Note since they're still using the Kira moniker (which is a bad phonetic translation from Japanese for Killer), but I think it's too early to knock it for that without seeing the context in the movie.

But the outrage for ScarJo happened immediately once the casting was announced without any details of the adaptation. Didn't the Dragonball movie adaptation fully westernize itself? If so, why is it constantly used as an exmample of whitewashing?

 

[broncobuster]

I think it depends on the nature of the adaptation.

If they completely change the setting and context, as they did with The Departed, it's not white-washing. They took the general premise and plot of the Hong Kong original, and completely adapted it to be about Irish Bostonians and the mob.

If they keep the original Asian setting and characters, but then cast a bunch of white actors to be the originally Asian leads, I think that you can make the argument for white-washing, despite it being an adaptation.

Basically. Going from Seven Samurai to The Magnificent Seven or Unforgiven to Yurusarezaru Mono, it's adapting a story for a different setting. That's fine.

 

[Zoe]

But the outrage for ScarJo happened immediately once the casting was announced without any details of the adaptation. Didn't the Dragonball movie adaptation fully westernize itself? If so, why is it constantly used as an exmample of whitewashing?

White dude named Goku has a Korean grandfather.

 

[lightskintwin]

White dude named Goku has a Korean grandfather.

Really? It's been a long ass time sinnce I watched thet terrible ass movie and has been erased from my memory. I think fully westernizing it is the way to go. However these examples are primarily brought up not because they didn't fully westernize it, but because they didn't cast Asian, preferably Asian American, leads. Which I beleive is the real problem, the lack of opportunities and overall Asian American representation in American films.

 

[GuitarAtomik]

But the outrage for ScarJo happened immediately once the casting was announced without any details of the adaptation. Didn't the Dragonball movie adaptation fully westernize itself? If so, why is it constantly used as an exmample of whitewashing?

I mean it was a little premature at just the casting announcement, but I think we all figured how they were going to handle it. I honestly can't remember enough about DB:E to comment on it. I remember it still had a lot of Asian influence to it though.

 

[LionPride]

Having a white boy play someone named Goku was probably not a good sign. Like, they ain't even change his name and they kept his uncle Asian. What white person is named Goku? Brayden sure, Arya, Chad, sure. But Goku???

 

[kswiston]

Having a white boy play someone named Goku was probably not a good sign. Like, they ain't even change his name and they kept his uncle Asian. What white person is named Goku? Brayden sure, Arya, Chad, sure. But Goku???

You should know that there are at least a few Weeaboo parents out there naming their kids Goku:

https://www.thelocal.es/20150803/baby-becomes-first-person-in-spain-named-goku-dragon-ball-z

I guess it's not as bad as Batman bin Suparman

 

[jack_package_200]

You should know that there are at least a few Weeaboo parents out there naming their kids Goku:

https://www.thelocal.es/20150803/baby-becomes-first-person-in-spain-named-goku-dragon-ball-z

That kid is gonna get bullied so hard.

 

[lightskintwin]

Having a white boy play someone named Goku was probably not a good sign. Like, they ain't even change his name and they kept his uncle Asian. What white person is named Goku? Brayden sure, Arya, Chad, sure. But Goku???

I think it's because the name is so iconic to the series. Y'know people would've made fun of it if they renamed him to Gordan or Gary. LOL

 

[Valkerionseven]

Meh honestly... given how little mass awareness there is for Ghost in the Shell outside its already gained fan base (get over it anime gaf its the truth.) I fully get the $$$ reasons for casting the most bankable women at the moment as the lead. As for why people in the west are outraged but people in Japan -shrug- once again I don't think many care what race the lead is of an anime. Memories of a Geisha did the same thing, they wanted an asian cast, hired the most bankable asians at the moment. Could they have gotten popular Japanese actors, yeah, but once again $$$. People probably felt more willing to call that out because its a real thing that is actually part of the culture compared to a futuristic story about cyborgs. Everyone would question scarjo as a geisha, no one cares if shes a robot.

If Akira, or insert whatever other anime movie does get made by Hollywood in the same way I'd expect the same tepid not really that interested reaction from Japan as well.

I admit to thinking there is no way this movie could have been successful given its source material and the type of people handling it.