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[Makoto-Yuki]

The Last of Us Re-Remastered?

smells like The Last of Us Reeee-mastered

I bet druckmann is gonna go back and rework stuff to bring it up to the level of craziness that is TLOU2.

 

[arkhamguy123]

that's a "solid line up" ? lol

haha perhaps I was being a bit generous. Honestly gaming has shrunk so much to me from growing up playing video games my whole life that 6 projects a lot of which are sequels I guess is enough now for me to call it solid:/ Had this been 2000-2010 or even 2011-2019 I would call it pathetic. But now other than those six, GTA 6, and the next batman game whenever that is, don't really know what else I'm hyped for. SO many studios I used to love have either folded or gone to the dark side so.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

davidjaffe did an interview with the lead at San Diego

from what was stated in that interview, he left because he pitched "movies or tv shows made with video game assets", but was rejected by Sony.

if this is the same thing, I think there's miscommunication. The last of us remake WAS NOT A GAME. It was a retelling of the story of TLOU as an episodic TV type series using video game engine assets. The idea was to keep a consistent visual style between gaming, movies, and TV...and to bridge the timing gap between major game releases with video content that could satisfy fans on a regular basis even if it isn't strictly gaming. Interesting idea

when they say they gave the project to ND, I think they are literally talking about the live action HBO series, not a game remake

just connecting the dots here...

SlimySnake

IMHO Sony made the right move here, I'm not sure how viable the concept of "gaming engines used to make episodic video content" is. I'd rather just make a legitimate game instead

 

[BlackM1st]

Days Gone doesn't deserve a sequel. First game had a pretty damn idiotic story and probably the most anticlimactic twist/ending I witnessed in the recent years. I would preferred an Order sequel, at least story/world was interesting enough.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Days Gone doesn't deserve a sequel. First game had a pretty damn idiotic story and probably the most anticlimactic twist/ending I witnessed in the recent years. I would preferred an Order sequel, at least story/world was interesting enough.

Damn, I couldn't disagree more. It wasn't perfect, but I really enjoyed it. I think the way it ended was great. It was satisfying and not a dumb cliffhanger, but left me excited for the possibilities of where they could go next.

 

[cormack12]

The article is a bit wishy-washy. It never really gives dates beyond 2013 when all this was happening. And didn't Bluepoint eventually do the UC remastered trilogy anyway?

I think this basically cements Factions and TLOU remaster being bundled to sweeten the deal. Maybe even TLOU II as well as a collection.

 

[Bryank75]

No, they are doing at least:
-New Uncharted game
-Multiplayer (TLOU2 factions?) game
-TLOU 2 PS5 + TLOU1 remake package


Sucker Punch is working in at least 2 games.


No, they have been releasing multiple games per year during many years but recently they reduced their output to a game per year. They work in different games at the same time, they have multiple teams. Spider-Man 2 -or whatever game they release after Ratchet- will be released very likely next year.


As we now, GoWR is a 2021 game.


They have other 1st party games you didn't mention like Media Molecule, and also have a very strong 2nd party output where they release many new IPs. As an example, this year they have/had Destruction All Stars or Returnal. Sony is the publisher who releases the bigest amount of AAA new IPs every generation, and seems it won't change in the near future.

The expansion is in almost all of these studios having growth in the recent years and sheduled to continue growing. Most of them in the past did only work in a single game at the same time, now they work on multiple games at the same time. Sony also mentioned to be working on acquisitions.


The best selling fighting games, console WRPG and JRPG are PlayStation (at least console) console exclusives or they primarly sell on PlayStation. Sony dominates these markets so don't need to make their own games.

They don't need to make their own ones when they already have 3rd party exclusives like FFVIIR remake, FF16, FFXIV, Project Athia, Persona 5, Street Fighter V, Guilty Gear Strive, The King of Fighters XIV, Samurai Shodown V Special and many other ones.

Outside Xbox or Nintendo exclusives, PS4 is the platform where fighting games are played on the fighting game tournaments by default for multi games or those who are PS console exclusives. Evo has a huge audience and its very targeted audience, the fighting game community members, are people who buy many console games and tons of dlc.

I disagree... Nintendo is going to pull out of EVO and there will be nothing to take its place.

They don't have enough exclusives to really push Nintendo back in Japan and for the larger Asian market which will become more important as the years go by.

They have no character action game... a Bayonetta type game would fit in there.

 

[Makoto-Yuki]

imo most of sonys exclusive games aren't that good. Horizon Zero Dawn was fun but spiderman, god of war, ghost of tsushima, uncharted, tlou2, etc.... no.

 

[Entroyp]

Good. We get a new IP instead of a sequel to a game I don't like.

 

[LisaMariaMartin]

So out of the big boys

Naughty Dog - TLOU 1 Remake
Sucker Punch - Ghost of Tsushima 2
Bend Studio - New IP
Insomniac - Spider-Man 2
Guerilla - Horizon Forbidden West
Santa Monica - God of War Ragnarok

Solid line up except ND doing a 2013 game. Maybe another team is doing a new IP first? Also it's interesting the fate of uncharted 5 remains unknown after bend stepped away. Doubt it would be shelved after the money and time spent on it.

Looks pathetic to be honest.

 

[ethomaz]

davidjaffe did an interview with the lead at San Diego

from what was stated in that interview, he left because he pitched "movies or tv shows made with video game assets", but was rejected by Sony.

if this is the same thing, I think there's miscommunication. The last of us remake WAS NOT A GAME. It was a retelling of the story of TLOU as an episodic TV type series using video game engine assets.

when they say they gave the project to ND, I think they are literally talking about the live action HBO series, not a game remake

just connecting the dots here...

SlimySnake

The HBO series is better deal indeed.
More exposure and bigger budget to the show.

Imagine something in the success of Grames of Thromes.

 

[Spacefish]

Apart from Astro, Sony Japan didn't have any heavy hitters last gen.

The decision to deemphasise studio japan happened before gravity rush 2 even released. They chose to exclude it from their E3 conference in 2016 because it didn't fit their new image as the HBO of video games. They lost interest in the Japanese market a long time ago and this had a direct effect on japan studios funding and sales.

 

[GHG]

I've read article around 4 times. One thing i really noticed is that article doesn't refer to Jim Ryan at all. It has nothing to do with him. That was before his current role in PlayStation







These 3 guys gets it.

How much damage control does one man need to do?

 

[Hypereides]

Agreed.

Disagree. Internally they knew where they'd lose points. They may have hoped for closer to 80, but they knew the issues long before release.

If Sony were sure Bend could deliver a Days Gone closer to the 80-85 mark, they'd be fully funding it. The issue isn't critics, it's that the critics noticed what management were already fully aware of.

I disagree with killing it off. There's clearly a great game somewhere in Days Gone and a sequel may well have allowed that to shine. The reason that isn't happening isn't because of poor reviews. It's because the poor reviews are accurate.

I dunno man. The content and criticism in some of those reviews was really questionable. But, hey, if you firmly believe they're "credible" and "accurate" then good for you man.

Btw, I wasn't saying the reviews were solely responsible for rejecting a sequel pitch, but it was a factor that attributed to it.

 

[Dr. Claus]

I dunno man. The content and criticism in some of those reviews was really questionable. But, hey, if you firmly believe they're "credible" and "accurate" then good for you.

Btw, I wasn't saying the reviews were solely responsible for rejecting a sequel pitch, but it was a factor that attributed it to.

Anyone who takes modern critic reviews seriously should be ignored.

 

[Dabaus]

I cant post pictures from my phone for some reason but the shawn layden twitter likes are amazing.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Who is Shreier writing this article for? It's certainly not gamers like us with writing this laughable...

"Emphasizing big hits can also be counterproductive because sometimes games that start small can turn into massive successes. In 2020, Sony didn't put much marketing muscle behind the quirky video game creation system Dreams, by the PlayStation-owned Media Molecule in the U.K. As a result, PlayStation may have missed out on its own version of Roblox, a similar video game tool. Parent company Roblox Corp. went public earlier this year and is now valued at $45 billion."

He's writing for the parents of gamers here.

 

[SSfox]

I really don't like how sony "to say the least" that are pushing so much all in on ND, while closing and ruining projects of other studios, specially since the last ND game akaTLOU 2 was pretty mediocre and just an OK game.

 

[Dabaus]

 

[Papacheeks]

What news? That creative differences lead to people leaving? This happens all the time in media. Every day. Theres no news here. We know nothing more about the future of projects.

They are selling Playstations and PS Plus subscriptions by the literal truck load. They have content coming. They are giving smaller developers like Housemarqe bigger budgets. They are still supporting smaller devs and even larger ones with stuff like FF16.

There is nothing in this piece that signifies anything major is changing. Maybe you could deduce that they are trying to move away from AA development. Totally possible. But they have been supporting devs with PS Plus that are smaller with Stuff like Oddworld and Bugsnax. If sony is stepping away from developing AA its a strategy that many will probably not like but they are not stepping away from AA entirely.

The sky is not falling.

Did you read the article?

The team's failure highlights the complex hierarchy of video game development and in particular, Sony's conservative approach to making games for the PlayStation 5. The Japanese conglomerate owns about a dozen studios across the world as part of its PlayStation Studios label, but in recent years it has prioritized games made by its most successful developers. Studios such as Santa Monica, California-based Naughty Dog and Amsterdam-based Guerrilla Games spend tens of millions of dollars to make games with the expectation that the investments will pay off exponentially. And they usually do. Hits including 2018's God of War and 2020's The Last of Us Part II are exclusive to PlayStation consoles, helping Sony sell some 114 million of the PS4. Rival Microsoft Corp. has taken the opposite approach, relying on a wide array of studios to feed its Netflix-like subscription service, Xbox Game Pass, which allows users to pay a monthly fee for unlimited access to a variety of games.

Sony's focus on exclusive blockbusters has come at the expense of niche teams and studios within the PlayStation organization, leading to high turnover and less choice for players. Last week, Sony reorganized a development office in Japan, resulting in mass departures of people who worked on less well-known but acclaimed games such as Gravity Rush and Everybody's Golf. The company has informed developers that it no longer wants to produce smaller games that are only

successful in Japan, Bloomberg has reported.

Creativity is being watched like a hawk now, only games they deem success's seem like they are approved. Even if it;s a sequel to a financially successful game like Days Gone. Very similar to what happened to Zack Snyder's movie recently.

There's potential for a sequel, but WB doesn't want to fund it. Thats honestly been the DNA of Sony. Make a game sometimes it doesn't hit critically or commercially but there's interest there for a sequel one way or another. Days Gone sold very well for a small studio game. And for a studio who had not made a console game since PS2 days.

I really hope at this point I'm overreacting and their plan or decisions show that they were the most sound to make. Ill wait for Jaffe so chime in as I trust his insight when it comes to Sony more than Jason talking to a bunch of ex-ployee's.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

The HBO series is better deal indeed.
More exposure and bigger budget to the show.

Imagine something in the success of Grames of Thromes.

I agree.

I think if you have a big video game series you need to elevate it for the TV screen in a different way than what San Diego wanted to do.

not saying they wouldn't have been successful, but the HBO series will get so much greater exposure

I think San Diego needs to continue supporting WWS or start making actual games, I think making episodic TV content is stretching their resources too thinly

 

[Hypereides]

Anyone who takes modern critic reviews seriously should be ignored.

 

[Maxwell Jacob Friedman]

that's a "solid line up" ? lol

how is that not? All of them are going to be guaranteed bangers, also some of those teams have been split meaning working on more than one project, naughty dog is also working on a sci-fi game sources have said

 

[Dabaus]

Has a former ceo ever been so aggressive in dogging his successor? Besides like trump back in 2016?

 

[arkhamguy123]

Looks pathetic to be honest.

Naughty dogs is the most puzzling. They seemed all but locked to do some crazy awesome new IP and they go the demon souls or resident evil route for a shiny remake with all their vast resources and influence? Bizarre. As for the others. The spider man games are Arkham lite but they'll hold me over until Batman comes back. (get it together WB). Horizon 2 being cross gen is a huge hype killer. God of war im gonna wait to see if its PS5 only or not before I get super excited. And ghost of Tsushima 2 and a new ip from bend genuinely excite me even if they're probably years away.

You are right though its sad to see the industry ironically become so big yet so small. I mean compare this line up to Sony's offerings in past generations. It's lame.

 

[Maogp]

Never thought about any smaller studios helping the main one. Like everyone else, all you see for a game is the publisher and main studio. So the assumption is that one studio did it all.

However, it seems there's some kind of entitlement in game making where you get put in a studio, get a studio name, a logo and you feel you're your own island and can do what you want.

Execs probably do that just to make them feel better because most places (I work in an office too), you get different functional dept likes Sales and Logistics, but there's no isolated department teams who do their own thing. Even if your product line is so big it's its own dept, the execs still call the shots. You don't get your own logo, you don't get your own office building, you are still part of the overall team.

So if some workers have to get shifted around, that's life. I do finance and I've been shifted to different depts and had different bosses too. And I even got shifted back to the old dept and boss. Sometimes you can focus on your core tasks, sometimes you got to do other shit because another dept or team needs help. That's the way it works.

I agree with you but in part, it is true that when you are part of a team you have to be part of the entire mechanism, but in this article we are talking about entire teams that are forced to help the bigger teams.
That's not necessarily a bad thing, but when the big bosses tell Bend Studio they can't do their Days Gone 2 because they have to help Naughty Dog with their next game or they have to make a different kind of game than what they have planned the fact is that the creative aspect is suppressed. What you say is true, regarding how it usually works, but you always have to be in balance between what an entire team wants and what is best for the company. In this case Sony has lost a lot of figures and professionalism. Is not good at all.
The most important part of my post is that we are talking about videogames that are a creative process before money, business and corporation.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

"Sony's not giving developers freedom..."

Also, a team of 30 employees from different studios tried to make a remake of a remake. The only thing more creative than that is a remake of a remake of a remake...

It sounds like Sony was a zoo and someone needed to put the animals back in the cages.

 

[SlimySnake]

Fewer games? Sony first party has released 5 games to date on PS5 and there are 3 more in the next 2 months. How many had been released by this stage on PS4?

Sony started last gen poorly but ended up rebounding thanks to third party studios like Supermmasive (until dawn), From Software (bloodborne), Ready At Dawn (the order). None of these studios are making exclusives for Playstation now.

So where are they going to get the games? Quantic Dream, Sony Bend and Koji Pro helped them finish the gen strong. No exclusives from them either. We might get something from bend but not for another 5 years.

There is no Team Ico. So no The Last Guardian like game either. There is no DriveClub like game either. Knack sucked but since there is no Japan Studios, no knack like game either.

This means that the following games and studios will not be making PS5 exclusives. Who has sony lined up to replace them for the next few years?

- Evolution Studios (DriveClub)
- Team Ico (The Last Guardian)
- Supermassive Games (Until Dawn)
- KojiPro (Death Stranding)
- Quantic Dream (Detroit)
- From Software (Bloodborne)
- Japan Studios (Knack)
- Sony Bend (Days Gone)

Sony's lineup for the next few years looks like this:
- Ratchet
- Horizon
- GoW
- GT7
- TLOU2 Factions

Two of them are cross gen games. And GoW is most likely cross gen too.

And thats it. Once those guys release those games over the next year or so. Thats it. They will go back and take 3-4 years to make their next game like they always do. The only problem is that Sony has killed their relationship with 3rd party studios above and have killed the first party studios leaving them overly reliant on ND, SSM, SP, Insomniac and GG.

If Horizon gets delayed, Ratchet will literally be there only big game this year. Think about it. As bad as 2014 was, at least they had Infamous and DriveClub.

 

[vpance]

Remake news is whatever. I guess some other studio will handle it. But I hope ND moves on to something else.

 

[donix2010]

With the fallout from the ending of Last of Us 2. I'm sure people will be buying the next Druckmann game.(sarcasm)

 

[supernova8]

I don't see what all the outrage is about. Sony had been a first party powerhouse for a while. And their business model is to focus on that. They make games to sell systems.

I was thinking the same. Strikes me as a non-story. Plus it's not like they have unlimited funds (there's always an opportunity cost) and just because Days Gone was profitable doesn't mean they cannot decide something else is more profitable.

Not really a hit piece either though, just the sort of thing that probably goes on in the games industry all the time but it sounds all so shocking because usually nobody covers it.

 

[Withnail]

Sony started last gen poorly but ended up rebounding thanks to third party studios like Supermmasive (until dawn), From Software (bloodborne), Ready At Dawn (the order). None of these studios are making exclusives for Playstation now.

So where are they going to get the games? Quantic Dream, Sony Bend and Koji Pro helped them finish the gen strong. No exclusives from them either. We might get something from bend but not for another 5 years.

There is no Team Ico. So no The Last Guardian like game either. There is no DriveClub like game either. Knack sucked but since there is no Japan Studios, no knack like game either.

This means that the following games and studios will not be making PS5 exclusives. Who has sony lined up to replace them for the next few years?

- Evolution Studios (DriveClub)
- Team Ico (The Last Guardian)
- Supermassive Games (Until Dawn)
- KojiPro (Death Stranding)
- Quantic Dream (Detroit)
- From Software (Bloodborne)
- Japan Studios (Knack)
- Sony Bend (Days Gone)

Sony's lineup for the next few years looks like this:
- Ratchet
- Horizon
- GoW
- GT7
- TLOU2 Factions

Two of them are cross gen games. And GoW is most likely cross gen too.

And thats it. Once those guys release those games over the next year or so. Thats it. They will go back and take 3-4 years to make their next game like they always do. The only problem is that Sony has killed their relationship with 3rd party studios above and have killed the first party studios leaving them overly reliant on ND, SSM, SP, Insomniac and GG.

If Horizon gets delayed, Ratchet will literally be there only big game this year. Think about it. As bad as 2014 was, at least they had Infamous and DriveClub.

Just ignoring Returnal, Sackboy, Destruction All Stars? And you don't think anything else like that will be announced, or publishing deals with the likes of Remedy, or more smaller games like Kena and Stray? OK.

 

[Entroyp]

This is so true

 

[Rien]

That series X suddenly has a lot more priority here.. will wait to see where Sony is going with all this.. Demon's remake can wait

 

[longdi]

The HBO series is better deal indeed.
More exposure and bigger budget to the show.

Imagine something in the success of Grames of Thromes.

Nah it is a crap deal.
The resources could be better used for....you know....games???

A new series or movie based on an existing IP....so what? It is just another show with names and characters tacked on to it. If it succeed, so what? We get gaming sequels....yay...
In fact, people like Druckman who heads the game IP, gets even more power...
The recent successful games/movie IP like Sonic and Pokemon, took themselves less seriously, i dont see Tlou, Gow, UC movies doing that...

besides, how does Jimbo hurst determines 'blockbuster potential'? They are simply betting the farm on existing studios and their heads....to continue making successful games....

 

[Nikana]

Did you read the article?




Creativity is being watched like a hawk now, only games they deem success's seem like they are approved. Even if it;s a sequel to a financially successful game like Days Gone. Very similar to what happened to Zack Snyder's movie recently.

There's potential for a sequel, but WB doesn't want to fund it. Thats honestly been the DNA of Sony. Make a game sometimes it doesn't hit critically or commercially but there's interest there for a sequel one way or another. Days Gone sold very well for a small studio game. And for a studio who had not made a console game since PS2 days.

I really hope at this point I'm overreacting and their plan or decisions show that they were the most sound to make. Ill wait for Jaffe so chime in as I trust his insight when it comes to Sony more than Jason talking to a bunch of ex-ployee's.

Creativity is always being watched. Do we need to go back to SSM and their cancelled project? Considering we have no idea what the pitch for Days Gone 2 consisted of there is no way to know what quality or ideas were being considered. You dont green-light projects simply because the previous one sold. It has to make sense.

This is Jason making noise about things that happen everyday in the industry.

The comparison to Snyder is not accurate in the slightest.

 

[Spacefish]

I've read article around 4 times. One thing i really noticed is that article doesn't refer to Jim Ryan at all. It has nothing to do with him. That was before his current role in PlayStation

what are you talking about? It constantly mentions Herman Hulst who was promoted to his position as head of worldwide studios by Jim Ryan in 2019 (after demoting Yoshida). This was obviously a result of them working together for many years prior as Jim Ryan oversaw the European arm of PlayStation which was their most successful market (and why he was promoted in leu of the guys who knew what they were doing). He was at the heart of every dumb decision since he gained an oversized influence in 2016.

 

[Dick Jones]

The decision to deemphasise studio japan happened before gravity rush 2 even released. They chose to exclude it from their E3 conference in 2016 because it didn't fit their new image as the HBO of video games. They lost interest in the Japanese market a long time ago and this had a direct effect on japan studios funding and sales.

So Jim Ryan is the fault of the new Sony direction. He was also at fault for Sony Japan's fall years before he got the top job that affects it. Jim Ryan shot JFK as well.

Sony Japan tried and failed a few times last gen, Astro was the exception. They worked with 3rd parties to great success. It could be a situation where Asobi's success could lead to a more Nintendo like efforts. PS need to make more similar games to link the younger games of Nintendo to PS.

 

[carlosrox]

I'll take a TLOU remake.

Uh Days Gone sold well and had a good critical reception did it not?? Find it kinda hard to believe they wouldn't do a sequel.



Sony? More like.... Safe-ny.

 

[Stuart360]

I mean just look at the recent Days Gone PC port thread and the reaction of the community was more along the lines of "no thanks"

Bullshit, i'm looking forward to the game. Open world plus zombies is right up my alley.
It sucks if there wont be a sequel, but the game didnt review like most Sony blockbusters do, and it seems that was the the tipping point, more than sales.
Dont really see whats so wromng with this strategy to be honest. Remaking TLOU is a bit of a weird one, but AAA are expensive, and you really need to make something that you are certain will sell well.
There will be plenty of third party Indie and AA games on PS5.

 

[cireza]

I think their strategy has been pretty obvious. They want to sell consoles and exclusives, and try as much as possible to be profitable on this sole basis. Exactly like Nintendo.

Third parties are good to fill gaps, so Sony buy some temporary exclusives (with confusing communication if possible, so that people believe they are permanent), but as soon as their big games will be ready, you can be certain that communication will no longer be about third parties.

People probably can't wait replaying all PS3 games remade with "incredible graphics" for only 70$ each.

 

[sncvsrtoip]

Sony's lineup for the next few years looks like this:
- Ratchet
- Horizon
- GoW
- GT7
- TLOU2 Factions

Two of them are cross gen games. And GoW is most likely cross gen too.

and gt7 looks like crossgen tough its not ;d

 

[Represent.]

Reading this article it seems that Naughty Dog has grown exponentially.

They are 100% Rockstar sized now.

It's really a small section of Bend Studio that joined ND (they're jokingly referred to as Naughty Dog South) to make this (pointless) remake. So its not like ND cant still be working on a New IP.

I bet you Jason conveniently left that out of the article.
Frankly you're stupid if you think all of ND is working on a TLOU remake

Druckmann himself said they have multiple projects on the go.

 

[SlimySnake]

Has a former ceo ever been so aggressive in dogging his successor? Besides like trump back in 2016?

Shawn was head of Sony U.S. Andrew House held the job Jim Ryan has now.

and gt7 looks like crossgen tough its not ;d

So Horizon 2, GT7, GoW, and TLOU Factions all cross gen. All 2022 releases on PS5.

Ratchet is the only next gen on the PS5 for the first 2 and a half years.

James Sawyer Ford this isnt troubling to you?

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

Has a former ceo ever been so aggressive in dogging his successor? Besides like trump back in 2016?

Shawn Layden is obviously extremely bitter, but honestly that guy was way worse than Jim Ryan

he turned E3 into a zen garden flute fest after a brilliant few E3s under Andrew House

I was honestly concerned about the direction of Sony under Layden.

 

[Fake]

Whats up with people posting random tweets?

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Shawn Layden is obviously extremely bitter, but honestly that guy was way worse than Jim Ryan

he turned E3 into a zen garden flute fest after a brilliant few E3s under Andrew House

I was honestly concerned about the direction of Sony under Layden.

I'm not going to go over what he said at all those E3's, but out of all execs he definitely seemed the wormiest of them all. Seemed most suited for a used car lot.

 

[Sid Of Bee]

They are catering to their market. This is Sony's strength. I like how MS, Nintendo, and Sony are playing to their strengths rather than trying to compete where they falter. Sony with blockbuster cinematic exclusives, MS with BC, GamePass and PC, Nintendo with portable gaming, classic IPs, and innovative gameplay. It makes every system worth owning. Let the third parties and indies flesh out the software lineup.

 

[Dabaus]

Whats up with people posting random tweets?

These arent random tweets, this is the former CEO of sonys first party studios "liking" things on twitter. I think thats relevant to the discussion.