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[tedtropy]

As many of us keeping up with the ongoing political circus show probably already know, in 1971 John Kerry published a book entitled 'The New Soldier', a book which is supposedly being suppressed and selling eBay and the likes for ridiculous sums of money. How true that is, I don't know or especially care, but I am curious if anyone on this forum has had the opportunity to read it. Personally, I don't think I lean to the left or right, in part because I believe common sense should take priority to taking sides and in part to the fact that I'm simply not politically educated enough to assign any kind of label to myself. Be that as it may, one particular excerpt from an interview centered on the book bothers me...

There are all kinds of atrocities, and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free fire zones. I conducted harassment and interdiction fire. I used 50 calibre machine guns, which we were granted and ordered to use, which were our only weapon against people. I took part in search and destroy missions, in the burning of villages. All of this is contrary to the laws of warfare, all of this is contrary to the Geneva Conventions and all of this is ordered as a matter of written established policy by the government of the United States from the top down. And I believe that the men who designed these, the men who designed the free fire zone, the men who ordered us, the men who signed off the air raid strike areas, I think these men, by the letter of the law, the same letter of the law that tried Lieutenant Calley, are war criminals.

-- John Kerry, on NBC's "Meet the Press" April 18, 1971

Now what I find peculiar is that, if the people above Kerry were war criminals (and I'm not saying they were or were not), wouldn't that logically make him such a criminal as well? I'd like to believe that men are ultimately responsible for their actions, and if he still CHOOSE to commit such deeds, doesn't that put him in the same group? I suppose what upsets me most is that Kerry always speaks of himself as being apart from these 'war criminals'. This post isn’t intended as some defense for Bush, please don’t take it as such, as I’ve got plenty of problems with him as well. Anyways, if I stir up some horrible hornet's nest of debate, I'm not meaning to, just want to know your honest opinions. Thanks.

 

[evil solrac v3.0]

vietnam was a bitch of a war. guys did lots ofbad things. so did the NVA and viet cong.

 

[Cooter]

You're right. By his own definition he is a war criminal.

What bothers me about Kerry and Vietnam is not the fact that he received 3 purple hearts without a day in the hospital but what he said after he got home.

Truly disgraceful IMO.

 

[Drinky Crow]

Good soldiers obey their orders, and cynical soldiers don't win wars. The war criminals are the folks giving the orders and who invade a sovereign nation on poor or false pretenses (the bugbear of "communism"; purported WMDs). They betray the necessary trust of their men and make them fight and kill not in the name of justice but in the name of a minority political agenda.

 

[capslock]

The guy was 25, he had just come back from being wounded from an unnecessary (as he saw it) war, he probably got overemotional. I think going to a war voluntarily earns you the right to bitch about it.

 

[tedtropy]

vietnam was a bitch of a war. guys did lots ofbad things. so did the NVA and viet cong.

Granted, I could never begin to understand what it was like. But there's alot of guys that spent way more time and saw/endured way more than he did. If he was so quickly corrupted, I can't help but question the kind of man he is...

 

[Drinky Crow]

My dad has a friend who got a Purple Heart when his helicopter crashed and he didn't "spend a day in the hospital"; are you going to disrespect his service as well by calling him a war criminal?

And it's disgraceful to call a crooked administration to account for a war that got the trusting and responsible servicemen of this country, as well as countless innocents in Vietnam, killed -- especially when that invasion was justified only by the spectre of a competing ideology already in the throes of its own self-destructive demise?

Vietnam and Iraq Part II make soldiers cynical, hindering their ability to serve just causes. The sort of leadership that would invade another nation and risk our soldiers' lives in the name of a minority political agenda or ungrounded ideological conflict commit the worst atrocity against their own nation: they abuse the necessary and vital faith of the soldiers that protect it for their own political expediency and paranoia. Kerry calling them out on it is possibly the most patriotic thing he could do in that situation; defending his own nation and fellow soldiers against the depradation of unenlightened and venal tyrants in the administration.

 

[heavy liquid]

Isn't it called "The New Soldier"?

You can download the book here, by the way:

http://freekerrybook.com/

Since its publication in 1971, John Kerry's book "The New Soldier" has acquired almost legendary status. Rumors abound of political operatives scrambling to locate and suppress stray copies during Kerry's House campaign in 1972. Copies now sell on Ebay for upwards of $750!

 

[tedtropy]

The guy was 25, he had just come back from being wounded from an unnecessary (as he saw it) war, he probably got overemotional. I think going to a war voluntarily earns you the right to bitch about it.

I'm not questioning his right to complain about the war, I'm just questioning his logic when it comes to dishing out the label 'war criminal'. Again, this stems from my personal belief that men are ultimately responsible for their own actions, regardless of their orders.

 

[tedtropy]

Isn't it called "The New Soldier"?

You can download the book here, by the way:

http://freekerrybook.com/

You're absolutely right. I screwed up and named the book by the domain location where I found information concerning it - sorry about that. Thanks for the link.

 

[Cooter]

My dad has a friend who got a Purple Heart when his helicopter crashed and he didn't "spend a day in the hospital"; are you going to disrespect his service as well by calling him a war criminal?

I don't see your point. John Kerry defined what a war criminal was and then admitted he did such acts. His purple hearts have nothing to do with being a war criminal.

For the record, I don't consider him a war criminal.

About the purple heart issue. I challenge you to find any veteran living that received three purple hearts in 4 months and did not spend one day in the hospital. It is unheard of.

 

[happyfunball]

Well I'm happy to see we have a war historian on this board...thanks so much for your insightful comments Cooter. Last time I checked you don't need to lose a leg to receive a purple heart. Just read Fear and Loathing in Iraq and you will see that people get purple hearts and never spend a day in the hospital.

And for Kerry's comments when he got back, THANK GOD HE SPOKE UP!

Thank god somebody spoke up against that crazy fucking maniac in the White House at the time. I'm happy he had something to do with getting that nasty worthless war over with early. I'm sure you would say the same if you were of drafting age back then and didn't have a rich daddy to help you get out of it.

 

[capslock]

.....
About the purple heart issue. I challenge you to find any veteran living that received three purple hearts in 4 months and did not spend one day in the hospital. It is unheard of.

I guess it's just a vast 35 year old conspiracy by those left-wing loonies at the Department of Defense.

 

[xsarien]

Just read Fear and Loathing in Iraq

:: Bolts off to Google to see where he can order a book he'd drop everything to read ::

:: Comes back horribly disappointed ::

 

[happyfunball]

sorry dude...im talkin about that blog by the soldier in Iraq...althought im sure in a year or two it will be a book or somethin

 

[tedtropy]

I guess it's just a vast 35 year old conspiracy by those left-wing loonies at the Department of Defense.

While I don't doubt that Kerry did indeed receive the three purple hearts, I do find it abit odd that he obtained so many for such a short tour of duty and I don't think it's an accurate method of defining his heroism…or whatever it is he's shooting for here. To me, true heroes don't fill out the paper work for such medals their selves, nor do they make a strong point to boast of such medals...especially if the war was one they disagreed with.

 

[Killthee]

sorry dude...im talkin about that blog by the soldier in Iraq...althought im sure in a year or two it will be a book or somethin

This is it right? What happened to all the entries?

 

[capslock]

While I don't doubt that Kerry did indeed receive the three purple hearts, I do find it abit odd that he obtained so many for such a short tour of duty and I don't think it's an accurate method of defining his heroism…or whatever it is he's shooting for here. To me, true heroes don't fill out the paper work for such medals their selves, nor do they make a strong point to boast of such medals...especially if the war was one they disagreed with.

Are you seriously suggesting that he went there planning to get those medals in a short period of time so he could get out of there? It's a fucking war for God's sake, not a game of Unreal Tournament.

And if he really did plan it all out the fucker deserves another medal for having the balls to pull it off.

 

[yoshifumi]

i don't find what kerry did to be disgraceful at all. he was exercising one of what is pretty much a basic right that this country was built on. the fact that he took part in these atrocities, and was willing to admit it and admit that it was wrong deserves at least some form of respect, even if it did undermine a lot of what was going on.

 

[happyfunball]

"I do find it abit odd that he obtained so many for such a short tour of duty "

Man, guys got shot and killed their first day on patrol there. To be hit 3 times on an open boat in Vietnam, with both shores full of cover, sounds very plausible to me. Who the hell are we to question how bad it was over there?

 

[happyfunball]

Damn....that sucks....it looks like they made him take it down

 

[evil solrac v3.0]

While I don't doubt that Kerry did indeed receive the three purple hearts, I do find it abit odd that he obtained so many for such a short tour of duty and I don't think it's an accurate method of defining his heroism…or whatever it is he's shooting for here. To me, true heroes don't fill out the paper work for such medals their selves, nor do they make a strong point to boast of such medals...especially if the war was one they disagreed with.

there's nothing odd about it. vietnam was an intense war. some guys got wounded within days of beiing in country. some got killed in a month or less. why is it so odd thata swift boat guy got it three times in four months of combat? some guys got more than three purple hearts? why is this so hard to understand? ther's no conspiracy. kerry didnt wake up one morning and say "i'm gonna go to vietnam, try to win some medals. and not get killed. come back home and join a veteran's movement against the war (which was in the thousands already) it's not rocket science.
and lots of soldiesr are proud of what they accomplish.
edit: what happened to that soldiers's blog? it got taken down? damn the patriots!!!

 

[heavy liquid]

Fuck. Why is it un-American to disagree with a war? At least Kerry went to it.

Not only that, but he co-founded Vietnam Veterans of America in 1978 which has a done a shitload of good for Vietnam vets and their familes.

What did Bush and Cheney do, again?

 

[ShadowRed]

"2.) A man shot one of his friends with a rocket which didn't explode on impact, but instead bounced off of his arm and detonated when it hit the ground. His arm was virtually ripped off. They wounded the man who fired the rocket found him and then beat him to death."



FUCKING A was this an Iraqi or US soldier who shot his friend?

 

[tedtropy]

I wasn't alive during the Vitenam era, but I know that our present war is a needless one, as much as I can only imagine Vitenam is from my knowledge of the words from those there. I'm not defending either war. Part of me just suspects that Kerry had a political agenda working when he enlisted to fight in Vietnam, much as he was working one when he left to protest it. It's not exactly unheard of. Nobility is a rare thing in politics, and I find Kerry to be no exception. Why I'm annoyed by something so common, I'm not sure, but I figured I'd vent it via a thread...

 

[tedtropy]

Fuck. Why is it un-American to disagree with a war? At least Kerry went to it.

Not only that, but he co-founded Vietnam Veterans of America in 1978 which has a done a shitload of good for Vietnam vets and their familes.

What did Bush and Cheney do, again?

Who said it was Un-American? I certainly don't recall using those words. When did I say the present Administration was any better? I'm not battling for sides, I'm just questioning one man's logic...

 

[capslock]

I wasn't alive during the Vitenam era, but I know that our present war is a needless one, as much as I can only imagine Vitenam is from my knowledge of the words from those there. I'm not defending either war. Part of me just suspects that Kerry had a political agenda working when he enlisted to fight in Vietnam, much as he was working one when he left to protest it. It's not exactly unheard of. Nobility is a rare thing in politics, and I find Kerry to be no exception. Why I'm annoyed by something so common, I'm not sure, but I figured I'd vent it via a thread...

Please respond to my previous post.

 

[tedtropy]

Are you seriously suggesting that he went there planning to get those medals in a short period of time so he could get out of there? It's a fucking war for God's sake, not a game of Unreal Tournament.

And if he really did plan it all out the fucker deserves another medal for having the balls to pull it off.

At any point did I imply he went there implicitly to work away with Purple Hearts? No. Do I think he was working a political agenda in his mind upon joining the war? Certainly, much as he was afterwards. I think some people hold this man too highly, but I don't disrespect their right to do so. The man's a politician before he's a Saint.

 

[evil solrac v3.0]

it's impossible to plan to go to A WAR YOU OPPOSE. in the hopes of getting medals so you can later on criticize it. are you gona say the same thing about the iraq veterans against the war? cause that group has alrady sprung up. it's a small group right now. 40 menbers only. but they already marched on sunday befor the RNC.

 

[xsarien]

Do you realize what level of masochism is involved to go to war and intentionally get three purple hearts and two stars just so he can wave them around in a future political career? That's pretty damned sick (well, the accusation is.)

 

[tedtropy]

Do you realize what level of masochism is involved to go to war and intentionally get three purple hearts and two stars just so he can wave them around in a future political career? That's pretty damned sick (well, the accusation is.)

And again what I said is being taken out of context. Perhaps I'm not being clear or something - I think he signed up for Vietnam so he could have some war credentials behind him, regardless of the specifics that happened while he was there. I personally feel that he was planning ahead for his political career. I could very well be wrong, but it's just an opinion. I'm not trying to sway anybody else's opinion here, just curious on feedback on the matter and I appreciate the views.

 

[tedtropy]

Again you don't think that is a bit crazy? He could have died very easily.

Politicians do crazy things? Have you listened to our President speak? Yeah, I do think a person's capable of that...

 

[heavy liquid]

Who said it was Un-American? I certainly don't recall using those words. When did I say the present Administration was any better? I'm not battling for sides, I'm just questioning one man's logic...

I wasn't saying you or anyone else in this thread said that. I'm referring to the 'either you're with us, or against us' (America) mentality of the Iraq war. As it's been said a million times, being against the war doens't mean you're against our troops.

 

[firex]

Politicians do crazy things? Have you listened to our President speak? Yeah, I do think a person's capable of that...

So your reasoning for all this is "hey, people do crazy things!" If that's the case you're making, it's good to know, so rational individuals can ignore it.

Where's your proof? Where's the reasoning?

 

[tedtropy]

I wasn't saying you or anyone else in this thread said that. I'm referring to the 'either you're with us, or against us' (America) mentality of the Iraq war. As it's been said a million times, being against the war doens't mean you're against our troops.

To me, the American thing to do would be to speak your mind on the matter regardless of trend. Yeah, there is too much of a "us and them" mentality going on in US today - we're severely divided amongst parties at present and I find that to be pretty dangerous...

 

[tedtropy]

So your reasoning for all this is "hey, people do crazy things!" If that's the case you're making, it's good to know, so rational individuals can ignore it.

Where's your proof? Where's the reasoning?

My response to a question about a post is not the original post itself. I think the man has an agenda, as most politicians do, I suppose his 'craziness' is open to interpretation. My reasoning would be highly motivated by how much Kerry is relying on his war background in his campaign...

 

[evil solrac v3.0]

And again what I said is being taken out of context. Perhaps I'm not being clear or something - I think he signed up for Vietnam so he could have some war credentials behind him, regardless of the specifics that happened while he was there. I personally feel that he was planning ahead for his political career. I could very well be wrong, but it's just an opinion. I'm not trying to sway anybody else's opinion here, just curious on feedback on the matter and I appreciate the views.

he signed up in the navy in 1965. he wasnt planning, he volunteered. he wasnt thinking about no damn politics. some people acuse him of that sure, but it's not the case at all or else he wouldnt have spent 24 months overseas. there easier FAR easier ways to get into politics.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

I don't see your point. John Kerry defined what a war criminal was and then admitted he did such acts.

He said he took parts in atrocious acts as part of his regularly ordered duty, that he later learned were against the legally accepted rule of war. Where should more of the blame go?

Similarly, you don't often hear bitching about how the current soldiers are awful for presenting misleading evidence and choosing to invade a country; they're following orders from above.

 

[Drinky Crow]

If you get wounded, why NOT apply for a Purple Heart? All Kerry had to think "eh, it's a medal, might help my job prospects being decorated, I'll just fill out this form." It's not like you hafta petition to get one, or perform some incredible bureaucratic effort.

 

[tedtropy]

he signed up in the navy in 1965. he wasnt planning, he volunteered. he wasnt thinking about no damn politics. some people acuse him of that sure, but it's not the case at all or else he wouldnt have spent 24 months overseas. there easier FAR easier ways to get into politics.

I don't know that any of us knows what he's thinking when he joined, we can just theorize. Just as everything I said is my personal one. I do think there's plenty of people that join wars for selfish purposes, as there are people that start them for selfish purposes. Perhaps Kerry's intentions were joining were completely noble, I just personally doubt that.

 

[evil solrac v3.0]

My response to a question about a post is not the original post itself. I think the man has an agenda, as most politicians do, I suppose his 'craziness' is open to interpretation. My reasoning would be highly motivated by how much Kerry is relying on his war background in his campaign...

he's realying on his war on background because he is saying that he knows about war and he would do a better job than bush who blindly led us into an unneeded war. in other words, he's got expirience and bush doesnt.

 

[Drinky Crow]

I just can't believe that some folks can't recognize that war atrocities are the blame of the LEADERSHIP, not the soldiers. The best soldiers are weapons: they fire when someone pulls the trigger. As I stated, cynical soldiers protect no-one, and cynical civilians protect everyone.

Call our leaders to account for abusing the good faith of the military; don't blame the soldiers for doing their job. Soldiers used properly and given a just cause will police their own effectively enough.

 

[evil solrac v3.0]

If you get wounded, why NOT apply for a Purple Heart? All Kerry had to think "eh, it's a medal, might help my job prospects being decorated, I'll just fill out this form." It's not like you hafta petition to get one, or perform some incredible bureaucratic effort.

your superior usually writes youup for the medal.

 

[evil solrac v3.0]

I don't know that any of us knows what he's thinking when he joined, we can just theorize. Just as everything I said is my personal one. I do think there's plenty of people that join wars for selfish purposes, as there are people that start them for selfish purposes. Perhaps Kerry's intentions were joining were completely noble, I just personally doubt that.

WHY DO YOU DOUBT THAT?

 

[tedtropy]

WHY DO YOU DOUBT THAT?

Perhaps because of my cynical nature towards politics in general, but when Kerry's "big guns" in this battle is basically his war record (and his participation in a totally different war does not instantly qualify him to be a better leader at a different one) I just can't help but suspect that he had alterior motivation while there.

 

[evil solrac v3.0]

Perhaps because of my cynical nature towards politics in general, but when Kerry's "big guns" in this battle is basically his war record (and his participation in a totally different war does not instantly qualify him to be a better leader at a different one) I just can't help but suspect that he had alterior motivation while there.

WHY? that doesnt make sense. what has he given you or said that makes you think "he's a snake" yu're right. maybe him being in a war doesnt qualify him to lead now. but it might make him a more thoughtful and smarter commander in chief than the cowboy in the white house now.

 

[tedtropy]

WHY? that doesnt make sense. what has he given you or said that makes you think "he's a snake" yu're right. maybe him being in a war doesnt qualify him to lead now. but it might make him a more thoughtful and smarter commander in chief than the cowboy in the white house now.

The fact this his Vietnam record is very much the focal point of his campaign makes me think his tour there was more than him just doing service to his country. I don't know, maybe I can't articulate my reasons well enough, but it just comes across as subversive to me...

 

[Drinky Crow]

Or maybe, just MAYBE, the Bush Administration has emphasized the "war" on terror to ridiculous extremes, and it MAKES SENSE that a WARRIOR should emphasize his experience?

If Kerry touting his wartime experience makes you suspicious, how does Bush mock-landing a jet on a carrier make you feel?

 

[evil solrac v3.0]

many ex-soldiers tat have run for president have used their record. eisenhower, grant, roosevelt, bob dole. it's there to tell the people that they can make the right decisions concerning the military. it's specially important during this time because in my eyes, bush hasnt used our troops well at all.

 

[tedtropy]

Or maybe, just MAYBE, the Bush Administration has emphasized the "war" on terror to ridiculous extremes, and it MAKES SENSE that a WARRIOR should emphasize his experience?

If Kerry touting his wartime experience makes you suspicious, how does Bush mock-landing a jet on a carrier make you feel?

Jaded. Like most of the crap politicians pull, irregardless of their party...