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[sytadel]

"Jordan was rusty" doesn't fly when he goes 32/7/5 on 48% shooting. His performance in 1995 compares favorably to ANY of his postseason performances.
The Bulls couldn't beat a team with a dominant center. Even if they had got through to the finals, Hakeem would have eaten them alive. He wasn't rusty at all, he dropped 55 points against the knicks a month prior, not only did he lose against Shaq & Penny in 1995 he choked twice the full games are on Youtube.

MJ desperately needed Rodman's help.

Rodman's offensive rebounding won the following 1996 series, most long time Bulls fans agree.

Jordan not only shot terribly from the field, he was absolute shit in the fourth quarters too (shot 33.3% in them, and only 15.4% in the fourth quarters of the three close games). In the two close wins of the series, Rodman averaged 11 offensive rebounds/game. He was setting records, and when MJ was shooting the team out of the game with bricks (rest of the team struggled shooting wise too), it was Rodman getting all those rebounds to give Bulls the extra possessions. Bulls as a team shot much lower than Sonics in that series...why do you think they still won? They got 34 more possessions from offensive rebounds (Rodman alone had 41!) MJ's scoring could have been replaced in that series, but Rodman's historic offensive rebounding? Not so much.

Rodman should have been the MVP of that Finals. The Bulls shot much worse from the field than the Sonics in the Finals but still won. How did that happen? Simple. The Bulls got more shot opportunities from offensive rebounds basically negating many of their misses. Rodman, by himself, secured and additional 41 possessions for the Bulls with his offensive rebounding including 2 games where he tied an NBA Finals record. That's like playing H-O-R-S-E and someone giving you multiple "do overs" after you've missed.

Swap LeBron out for Jordan on the current Cavs team and they don't make playoffs. LeBron is bigger, faster, stronger, and the GOAT.

 

[Musky_Cheese]

James isn’t GOAT. James isn’t even #2

 

[lil puff]

I frankly find it hard to compare eras, and I am biased because I grew up watching MJ. If you watched back then, of course MJ had some bad games, including playoffs.

I go by style of play and I definitely prefer Jordan's smoother, finesse and high flying style over Lebrons powerhouse down the lane style. However, Lebron's turnaround fade away has gotten very good lately.

I can't really get mad at what people choose as GOAT. It's close enough to where each is a solid argument.

 

[Soleil rouge]

The Bulls had literally beaten a team with a dominant center the series prior to the Magic. They also eliminated Patrick Ewing many times.

Just because MJ wasn't complete trash doesn't mean that he was at his best. His summer workouts that off-season were well documented. He was obsessed with coming back better than ever and dismantled that same Magic team a year later.



I know you're just trolling, but there was no guarantee that the Rockets would have beaten that year's version of the Bulls either. Style matchups and the playoffs are a different animal. The Magic swept the Rockets during the regular season and made it look easy, for example. Hakeem was no match for Shaq. There's a reason why they were an enormous underdog.

 

[DasPenguin]

"Jordan was rusty" doesn't fly when he goes 32/7/5 on 48% shooting. His performance in 1995 compares favorably to ANY of his postseason performances.
The Bulls couldn't beat a team with a dominant center. Even if they had got through to the finals, Hakeem would have eaten them alive. He wasn't rusty at all, he dropped 55 points against the knicks a month prior, not only did he lose against Shaq & Penny in 1995 he choked twice the full games are on Youtube.

MJ desperately needed Rodman's help.

Rodman's offensive rebounding won the following 1996 series, most long time Bulls fans agree.

Jordan not only shot terribly from the field, he was absolute shit in the fourth quarters too (shot 33.3% in them, and only 15.4% in the fourth quarters of the three close games). In the two close wins of the series, Rodman averaged 11 offensive rebounds/game. He was setting records, and when MJ was shooting the team out of the game with bricks (rest of the team struggled shooting wise too), it was Rodman getting all those rebounds to give Bulls the extra possessions. Bulls as a team shot much lower than Sonics in that series...why do you think they still won? They got 34 more possessions from offensive rebounds (Rodman alone had 41!) MJ's scoring could have been replaced in that series, but Rodman's historic offensive rebounding? Not so much.

Rodman should have been the MVP of that Finals. The Bulls shot much worse from the field than the Sonics in the Finals but still won. How did that happen? Simple. The Bulls got more shot opportunities from offensive rebounds basically negating many of their misses. Rodman, by himself, secured and additional 41 possessions for the Bulls with his offensive rebounding including 2 games where he tied an NBA Finals record. That's like playing H-O-R-S-E and someone giving you multiple "do overs" after you've missed.

Swap LeBron out for Jordan on the current Cavs team and they don't make playoffs. LeBron is bigger, faster, stronger, and the GOAT.

I know you are trolling but anyway. Jordan wasn't rusty? I guess you missed game one of that series as much as Jordan missed his legs. You know they swept the Magic next year, right? With a team that was .500 and the only addition was Dennis Rodman, who was given away because no one wanted him anymore. Also Jordan was not even close to the same player after baseball than he was before that. Baseball really changed his body and he lost a lot of the explosiveness that he used to have.

I admit, Rodman was amazing against Seattle. He was also hot garbage the next two years against the Jazz. He was so bad that Bulls were starting Kukoc, even though Toni couldn't guard a chair on a good day. Also MJ's numbers after Bulls took a 3-0 lead against the Sonics were pretty spectacular.

Once again: there has been one series in the last decade where Lebron was guarded pretty much the same way like players were guarded in the 90's. Big guy waiting in the lane, double teams on every ball screen. Your bigger, stronger (LOL on that one, by the way) Lebron had no idea what to do and was completely lost the whole series. In fact he was the third best player on his own team. In the Finals. After Chris Bosh. With a roster that was better in every way possible than any Bulls roster in the 90's.

And if Jordan played against 6 teenagers and Bogdanovic, in a league where you can drive from half court without handchecking, without double teams and you are allowed to score layup after layup, mental institutions would've had a busy time after the playoff season.

But hey, I guess being the greatest of all time means you are the best player in a Finals series one out of four games, even though your usage rate is through the roof and you have the ball in your hands all the time. Or maybe, just maybe, the league is pretty terrible outside of two teams, and filled with athletic teenagers who don't know how to play basketball.

Thanks for the insight. Maybe watch a game or two before you start topics that remind everyone of YouTube comments.

 

[SLoWMoTIoN]

What year is this

 

[DasPenguin]

[

James isn’t GOAT. James isn’t even #2

Also this. I prefer Kareem as the GOAT with MJ right behind. Body of work, being the Finals MVP at 38 years old, being the best college and high school player of all time and playing against the stiffest competition out of everyone mentioned. Kareem took down everyone from Wilt to Hakeem. Also the most unselfish NBA player ever. Dude could've scored 30 points for game for a decade longer, but took less shots so other guys could get theirs. Great FT shooter, great in the clutch, unstoppable in the post and a great passer, rebounder and shot blocker. GOAT, millenials need to stay quiet.

 

[Musky_Cheese]

Just between Bryant, James, and Jordan as overall players...

1. Jordan
2. Bryant
3. James

 

[Phoenix RISING]

I know you are trolling but anyway. Jordan wasn't rusty? I guess you missed game one of that series as much as Jordan missed his legs. You know they swept the Magic next year, right? With a team that was .500 and the only addition was Dennis Rodman, who was given away because no one wanted him anymore. Also Jordan was not even close to the same player after baseball than he was before that. Baseball really changed his body and he lost a lot of the explosiveness that he used to have.

I admit, Rodman was amazing against Seattle. He was also hot garbage the next two years against the Jazz. He was so bad that Bulls were starting Kukoc, even though Toni couldn't guard a chair on a good day. Also MJ's numbers after Bulls took a 3-0 lead against the Sonics were pretty spectacular.

Once again: there has been one series in the last decade where Lebron was guarded pretty much the same way like players were guarded in the 90's. Big guy waiting in the lane, double teams on every ball screen. Your bigger, stronger (LOL on that one, by the way) Lebron had no idea what to do and was completely lost the whole series. In fact he was the third best player on his own team. In the Finals. After Chris Bosh. With a roster that was better in every way possible than any Bulls roster in the 90's.

And if Jordan played against 6 teenagers and Bogdanovic, in a league where you can drive from half court without handchecking, without double teams and you are allowed to score layup after layup, mental institutions would've had a busy time after the playoff season.

But hey, I guess being the greatest of all time means you are the best player in a Finals series one out of four games, even though your usage rate is through the roof and you have the ball in your hands all the time. Or maybe, just maybe, the league is pretty terrible outside of two teams, and filled with athletic teenagers who don't know how to play basketball.

Thanks for the insight. Maybe watch a game or two before you start topics that remind everyone of YouTube comments.

Real basketball fans don't lose focus, and understand how great the Spurs have been for almost twenty years.

 

[Nester99]

Why you bringin up old stuff?

 

[Baskin Robbins]

[


Also this. I prefer Kareem as the GOAT with MJ right behind. Body of work, being the Finals MVP at 38 years old, being the best college and high school player of all time and playing against the stiffest competition out of everyone mentioned. Kareem took down everyone from Wilt to Hakeem. Also the most unselfish NBA player ever. Dude could've scored 30 points for game for a decade longer, but took less shots so other guys could get theirs. Great FT shooter, great in the clutch, unstoppable in the post and a great passer, rebounder and shot blocker. GOAT, millenials need to stay quiet.

I got to see Kareem play when I was little. My pop took my Mom and me.
Unstoppable mother fucker, to be sure. His Skyhooks are legendary. I remember Chick Hern's commentary as a companion piece to Kareem's ball playing like two peas in a pod.
RIP Chick.

 

[Gander]

Just between Bryant, James, and Jordan as overall players...

1. Jordan
2. Bryant
3. James

This might even be too generous, Shaq's free throws sucked but he was a more dominant player.

 

[highrider]

Jordan is the best one on one offensive and defensive player ever. LeBron is the best basketball player ever.

 

[Musky_Cheese]

This might even be too generous, Shaq's free throws sucked but he was a more dominant player.

I just meant between the 3 of them.

Kobe maybe above Jordan. But James isn’t above Bryant.

 

[Scopa]

"Jordan was rusty" doesn't fly when he goes 32/7/5 on 48% shooting. His performance in 1995 compares favorably to ANY of his postseason performances.
The Bulls couldn't beat a team with a dominant center. Even if they had got through to the finals, Hakeem would have eaten them alive. He wasn't rusty at all, he dropped 55 points against the knicks a month prior, not only did he lose against Shaq & Penny in 1995 he choked twice the full games are on Youtube.

MJ desperately needed Rodman's help.

Rodman's offensive rebounding won the following 1996 series, most long time Bulls fans agree.

Jordan not only shot terribly from the field, he was absolute shit in the fourth quarters too (shot 33.3% in them, and only 15.4% in the fourth quarters of the three close games). In the two close wins of the series, Rodman averaged 11 offensive rebounds/game. He was setting records, and when MJ was shooting the team out of the game with bricks (rest of the team struggled shooting wise too), it was Rodman getting all those rebounds to give Bulls the extra possessions. Bulls as a team shot much lower than Sonics in that series...why do you think they still won? They got 34 more possessions from offensive rebounds (Rodman alone had 41!) MJ's scoring could have been replaced in that series, but Rodman's historic offensive rebounding? Not so much.

Rodman should have been the MVP of that Finals. The Bulls shot much worse from the field than the Sonics in the Finals but still won. How did that happen? Simple. The Bulls got more shot opportunities from offensive rebounds basically negating many of their misses. Rodman, by himself, secured and additional 41 possessions for the Bulls with his offensive rebounding including 2 games where he tied an NBA Finals record. That's like playing H-O-R-S-E and someone giving you multiple "do overs" after you've missed.

Swap LeBron out for Jordan on the current Cavs team and they don't make playoffs. LeBron is bigger, faster, stronger, and the GOAT.

All that wordage just for a stealth Lebron thread. Jordan is still better.

EDIT: Whilst we’re here, Penny & Shaq

They are why I still (painfully) support the Magic to this day and Penny is my favourite player of all time. His highlight reel is the shit. Was tracking to be the new Magic Johnson until Shaq left and injuries reared their ugly head. If Shaq didn’t chase the money, they would’ve been a multiple Championship combo.

 

[Hotel Security]

Considering that Jordan basically destroyed the Shaq/Penny era before it even began, then I'd say he got the last laugh. And, yes, MJ was very clearly not his usual self in 95...that was clear the second he came back.

Also, there's nothing more lame than a hot take "MJ wasn't that great" comment. Especially when it's VERY clear that the TC didn't actually watch this series or wasn't watching b-ball at that time. You can always tell these people since they flood their posts with half-assed after-the-fact analytics and don't provide a lick of detail about the actual games like who guarded who, what sets they were running or how the matchups worked out...it's always individual stats that you can easily pull from a website and never any analysis that you'd get from watching the actual games.

The modern NBA has shown us that you can always cherry-pick a stat to back up any nonsense point you'd like to make. Saber stats are nice for certain things but they're just abused by lazy folks who don't actually watch games but want to pretend that they do.

James isn’t GOAT. James isn’t even #2

It just comes down to everyone's latent need to say that their generation was the best one...every generation does this. We even had to deal with this nonsense when folks tried to argue that Lemieux was better than Gretzky no matter how ridiculous it sounded. Almost no one who says this watched Jordan in his prime. And, yes, I'd like to know when we collectively decided that Bron had passed Magic, Russell, and Kareem. Let's see if he can pass them up before we talk about MJ, yes?

 

[manfestival]

James is the GOAT. Jordan fanboys are blinded by nostalgia and cherry picked facts

 

[sytadel]

Bulls were beaten by Magic. Did not go to game 7. Your point seemed to be that MJ wasn't at his best and Bulls would've won if he had a full season under his belt or something. Yet he shot and scored better than during many of their championship runs. Then this took place, i.e. they increased the team's chances, adding several pieces including Rodman.
His numbers were as good as always and better then in 96-98 31.5 ppg 484 FG% 6.5 rpg 4.1 Apg 2.3 Spg 1.4 Bpg
You realize he's messed up plenty of times when he was 100% too right? I bet if Pippen doesn't close out the Knicks series in '93, the only thing we hear about from that year is how bad MJ messed up. Well that or his fans playing it off like his wrist wasn't 100% (despite declaring right before the series that it was a non issue).
Was he ''rusty'' when he scored 55 against the Knicks or 48 against the Hornets in the 1995 playoffs? MJ put up 31/6.5/4/2.5/2 on 48% in the 1995 Magic series, moved way better than he did in '96 and beyond FACTS. Even MJ has always needed one of the best (if not the best) cast in the league to win, and in '95 he didn't have it even though he had better playoff numbers in 95 than in ANY of his 2nd 3peat years. FACTS. The entire series is on youtube, watch and learn.

Jordan is supposed to be the undisputed greatest right? No excuses, him coming back should have made the Bulls an automatic lock to win the championship. (many people believed it would) His presences alone should have put them over the top that year.

Let's not forget Jordan supposedly had a legendary ''will to win'' he always willed his team to victory no matter what, remember? He didn't though he came up short, choked in a crucial situation against Nick Anderson and cost his team the game and a chance at the title.
Sorry but time off or ''rust'' is such a laughable excuse for a player like Jordan. I mean the guy is supposed to be by far and away the best ever and he couldn't win because of ''rust''? Yeah okay.....

If Mike gets 95 disregarded there are a lot of people who should get some of the things used to hate on them taken back. Wilt, West, Magic, and Bird all had years or playoffs of being less than themselves due to things out of their control. The Lakers beat the Celtics in 85 with Larry having a cracked knuckle on his shooting hand. No one says a word about this. It's a bit of a double standard. Mike is pretty much the only player who gets "Nah that doesnt count...."

"Jordan not being Jordan" isn't the reason for the Bulls' loss that year. That would be interior defense (or lack thereof) and rebounding. Grant and O'Neal beasted on the Bulls frontcourt and that was the primary reason for the Magic winning. Again he desperately needed Rodman's help in 1996.

 

[n0razi]

2011 Dirk is da real MVP

 

[caffeware]

Why did Michael retired the second time?

 

[DasPenguin]

Jordan is supposed to be the undisputed greatest right? No excuses, him coming back should have made the Bulls an automatic lock to win the championship. (many people believed it would) His presences alone should have put them over the top that year.

Let's not forget Jordan supposedly had a legendary ''will to win'' he always willed his team to victory no matter what, remember? He didn't though he came up short, choked in a crucial situation against Nick Anderson and cost his team the game and a chance at the title.
Sorry but time off or ''rust'' is such a laughable excuse for a player like Jordan. I mean the guy is supposed to be by far and away the best ever and he couldn't win because of ''rust''? Yeah okay.....

If Mike gets 95 disregarded there are a lot of people who should get some of the things used to hate on them taken back. Wilt, West, Magic, and Bird all had years or playoffs of being less than themselves due to things out of their control. The Lakers beat the Celtics in 85 with Larry having a cracked knuckle on his shooting hand. No one says a word about this. It's a bit of a double standard. Mike is pretty much the only player who gets "Nah that doesnt count...."

"Jordan not being Jordan" isn't the reason for the Bulls' loss that year. That would be interior defense (or lack thereof) and rebounding. Grant and O'Neal beasted on the Bulls frontcourt and that was the primary reason for the Magic winning. Again he desperately needed Rodman's help in 1996.

Keep beating that dead horse. It ain't going to help you.

No one can take two years off, play a completely different game, come back and be the same. And Jordan wasn't. He had some good games, but he wasn't even close to the same player as before. That's why when he came back a year later, he played a completely different game. All post up, all moving without the ball. Pre-retirement Jordan was much more harder to guard. And because you are probably 15, you don't remember that the 72 win Bulls were projected to finish 3rd or 4th in the East in preseason polls. And everyone was saying that Jordan was not the same player that he used to be. And he wasn't, so he changed his game. And again because you are 15 and didn't see Jordan in his prime, you know that people called him the GOAT when he had won his first title, right? It had nothing to do with six titles. Everyone agreed after the championship that he was better than any player in the modern era. That's how much better he was pre-retirement. Of course you can find bad games from any player, but find me a 18 point series when he was in his prime or where he was the 4th or 5th best player in the series. Not gonna happen.

And you keep saying that Jordan needed the best team: 88-89 they took Pistons to six games with a 6th seeded team that had no business beating the Cavs and the Knicks. 93 they won the title even though the Knicks and Suns were both better teams. Granted Suns were unlucky that KJ wasn't himself with the knee injury. That made all the difference in the series. They still needed 40+ points per game from MJ to win. The last year Pippen missed half the season with injury and Bulls still had the best record in the East. And I know Pippen gets to be called top 50 player of all time in front of guys like Dominique, which is really insulting. Dominique was a franchise player, Scottie wasn't even close to that. He was a great defender and the perfect sidekick to MJ, but franchise player? Give me a break. Career averages of 17/6/5 don't scream franchise player. James played with Wade, I guess that wasn't enough help to beat Dallas.

Also Bulls lost zero series with home court advantage, won two Finals series as the road team and had zero three game losing streaks in eight years with Jordan on the team.

But you are right: 32/7/5 looks nice, but those numbers don't tell the whole story. But you seem to be somehow stuck with this series. I guess I'll end this silly argument by saying that 32/7/5 is still better than 18/7/7. Those are the numbers that LeBron averaged against the washed up Shawn Marion, ancient Jason Kidd and Tyson Chandler manning the paint. 18/7/7. Good for James that NBA has changed every rule, so nobody double teams stars anymore. Would be bad if the poster boy for the league got exposed again. The game is a bit harder when you don't get to walk down the lane for layups all game.

By the way: when people say "LeBron does other things than score", that has everything to do with usage rate. He brings the ball up and has it at all times. In 88-89 Doug Collins panicked when the Bulls were playing poorly, and he put Hodges in the starting lineup and made Jordan the PG of the team. He averaged a triple double the rest of the year. After they went to triple post, Jordan didn't have the ball nearly as much in his hands as he used to. Still he averaged 10+ assists vs Magic, hit more threes than Clyde against Portland and scored 40+ points per game against the Suns team that was supposed to outscore everyone. Jordan was a utility man with zero flaws in his game.

Why did Michael retired the second time?

Age, salary cap issues, front office issues. Pippen and his deal was up, Bulls weren't going to pay him. Pippen, Jordan and Jackson had been feuding with Krause for years. Jordan had played every game the past three years and he was old. Lockout was coming, and Rodman was terrible the last two years with the Bulls. They would've gotten rid of him anyway. Bison Dele played most of Rodman's minutes the first Jazz series, and they had to start Kukoc the next year because Rodman was so ineffective. But Dennis in his prime couldn't handle strong power forwards, so later in his career it became even harder. Barkley with Philadelphia murdered Rodman pretty much every time they faced each other.

 

[sytadel]

MJ played better in 1995 than he did in 1996, 1997 & 1998 and lost, the entire eastern conference finals series is on youtube available for all the 10 year olds out there you seem so infatuated with. He put the jersey on there isn't any excuses, he played exceptionally well, choked, and lost to Shaq & Penny. And who'd he beat in the first 3-peat... Lakers with no Kareem, Worthy was done & Magic had aids. Portland had Drexler. Suns had Barkley. When did he ever face 3 or 4 Hall of Famers on one team?

 

[Scopa]

 

[DasPenguin]

MJ played better in 1995 than he did in 1996, 1997 & 1998 and lost, the entire eastern conference finals series is on youtube available for all the 10 year olds out there you seem so infatuated with. He put the jersey on there isn't any excuses, he played exceptionally well, choked, and lost to Shaq & Penny. And who'd he beat in the first 3-peat... Lakers with no Kareem, Worthy was done & Magic had aids. Portland had Drexler. Suns had Barkley. When did he ever face 3 or 4 Hall of Famers on one team?

This basketball thing isn't for you. Maybe try baseball? it's very slow, stats are easy to follow and even if you take a nap you can still catch up. When it comes to talent level, how the game was played, advance stats etc... you have no clue. No point arguing. But you are right. He played quite well for a man who played baseball for two years. But you know who didn't play well? Exactly. Funny how you never respond to that. But James is so great. He scored nine consecutive layups against the Warriors in game three. So difficult. What a warrior. Such a great league filled with excellent defense. /s

But again, Lebron is a real warrior who doesn't mind adversity, so maybe he'll chase down his third all star team in under ten years, make a few finals and then blame every loss on his teammates. People compare him to Magic, yet Magic actually made his teammates better. Bulls were filled with journeymen that no one wanted. They made Luc Longley look good. Meanwile Kevin Love, Chris Bosh, and every midseason addition this season wonder what went wrong. But hey, all their fault as usual. Rodney Hood went from averaging 16 points per game to useless with one move. Probably his fault too.

And excuse me, who are the four hall of famers? Green and Klay aren't it, by the way. Not right now at least. 19/3/4 won't get you there. But to anwer your question: Pistons had three, and if and when Aquirre gets in that's four. Aquirre was 20/5/3 for his career and his stats took a dip after joining the Pistons, who were a guard oriented team. By the way, Portland had 4 all stars in the starting line up, plus Kersey, Robinson and Ainge. But hey, Marion and Kidd on their last legs is much much tougher. And poor James having to post up against J.J. Barea, that's just too much to ask. Put a cast on that hand like LeBron, you feel better.

 

[Musky_Cheese]

What a minute. Don’t be talking and insulting my baseball brah!!!

 

[lil puff]

Baseball?

 

[DasPenguin]

Dude I’ve loved baseball since Maddux was dominating in Atlanta. Just an easier game to follow. Give the poor kid a break, he needs some help.

 

[Musky_Cheese]

Dude I’ve loved baseball since Maddux was dominating in Atlanta. Just an easier game to follow. Give the poor kid a break, he needs some help.

Just having fun.

Bryant>James tho

 

[highrider]

To the people that rank Bryant really high, do you just ignore defense or.. Definitely would rank him above James and even Jordan as a pure scorer.

 

[lil puff]

Dude I’ve loved baseball since Maddux was dominating in Atlanta. Just an easier game to follow. Give the poor kid a break, he needs some help.

As a Mets fan. I hate you.

Kobe scored because he ignored his team, he was not a passer

 

[Musky_Cheese]

As a Mets fan. I hate you.

Kobe scored because he ignored his team, he was not a passer

Kobe scored because if he had the ball anywhere in the half court, he had a good chance of scoring. He was the best player on the planet during his time and is the best player the NBA has seen since Jordan.

I understand people don't think highly of him as a person. As a player he was a fucking monster tho.