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[mightynine]

I don't understand how, if she is in such a state, a court could conclude her wishes about being in such a state. It doesn't make sense.

And if she can swallow water and jello on her own, isn't it against the law that they withold her nourishment.

Oli, Oli, Oli.

Think about this for a second. The woman who claimed this, to the best of my knowledge, NEVER testified in court. She testified in an affidavit. If these claims were true, we would be hearing from PLENTY of people besides just one or two nurses. But this is not the only nurse that has ever taken care of Terri.

It's not against the law in this case because many patients every day decide to end their lives through lack of food and water. Of course, they're able to vocalize this. In Terri's case...well, that's not the case. But that's why her husband brought the question to court in the first place. And it has been decided she would not want to be kept alive in this manner. And, this is THE ONLY LEGAL WAY to carry out her demands.

If it had been determined that she would want to be kept alive, and a feeding tube was being kept from her, then we'd be talking about laws being broken.

And all this "she responds to her parents" talk? I talked to someone who saw people in this condition for years and he says chances are, it's a reflexive reaction to someone blocking the light.

 

[Drinky Crow]

Because countless doctors from a variety of significant medical institutions have said she's in PVS.

Because this story has been covered for over 10 years, and only NOW are such stories magickally garnering any attention, at about the same time Tom DeLay and his vanguard of propaganda ministers go on a panicked offensive.

Because these stories are frequently contradictory with the evidence at hand and available to the courts, if not in contradiction with themselves.

You're being emotionally manipulated and forced to choose a side. You're a victim of Tom DeLay and the modern Republican party's disregard for your basic capacity for reason. Congratulations!

People can be bought. If the nurse in question is a Christian, she can be convinced to lie through peer pressure of if she's told it's for a greater good. Hell, people can selectively advertise false memories and convince themselves that they've witnessed things that never occurred if they have enough internal and external pressure, and there's no doubt that the Fundamentalists are applying as much as they can get. Her stories don't corroborate at all with testimonials and evidence from the other caregivers, and your willingness to accept her testimonial against reams of better evidence -- evidence that the largely conservative courts have accepted -- is proof that you aren't being remotely rational about the situation. Your church has told you what good Christians believe, and you'll make sure you're only exposed to the supporting "arguments", such as they are. If the parade of unrelated hack doctors and theologians disguised as medical professionals isn't proof enough that they can muster an army of the proactively deluded, then you're nothing more than another tool yourself. KING SOLOMON AM CRYING.

 

[olimario]

Oli, Oli, Oli.

Think about this for a second. The woman who claimed this, to the best of my knowledge, NEVER testified in court. She testified in an affidavit. If these claims were true, we would be hearing from PLENTY of people besides just one or two nurses. But this is not the only nurse that has ever taken care of Terri.

It's not against the law in this case because many patients every day decide to end their lives through lack of food and water. Of course, they're able to vocalize this. In Terri's case...well, that's not the case. But that's why her husband brought the question to court in the first place. And it has been decided she would not want to be kept alive in this manner. And, this is THE ONLY LEGAL WAY to carry out her demands.

If it had been determined that she would want to be kept alive, and a feeding tube was being kept from her, then we'd be talking about laws being broken.

HOW do you conclude that, though? Trust the husband when her parents seem to think otherwise. It seems out of the question that a court could determine beyond the shadow of a doubt that her wishes are being upheld when she can't express her wishes and when there is no living will.

 

[human5892]

I've heard a case of a girl with half a brain who functions normally. The other half of her head is full of liquid.

That doesn't matter. None of these anecdotal "BUT THIS ONE PERSON WHO I HEARD ABOUT" stories matter. In this instance, the woman in question is brain dead. It's been certified over and over again by medical professionals. The tube re-insert is being denied over and over again largely because of this. Case lose total, some Republicans am cry.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

You're a victim of Tom DeLay and the modern Republican party's disregard for your basic capacity for reason.

Pull Oli's feeding tube!

 

[darscot]

I hate that I've been sucked into this story but call me a sucker.

Anyone that is doubting her husband is clueless! The man has been fighting for his wife for 15 years and for what? If he was a scumbag he would have just walked. What possible motivation does he have to put up with this. The only explanation is love. He deeply loved this women. If he was a scumbag he would have cleaned out the settlement years ago and been living on beach while she rots in a hospital bed.

Her parents are the ones that need to take a look in the mirror who are they doing this for her or them?

 

[Cerebral Palsy]

HOW do you conclude that, though? Trust the husband when her parents seem to think otherwise. It seems out of the question that a court could determine beyond the shadow of a doubt that her wishes are being upheld when she can't express her wishes and when there is no living will.

Well, when...

A) You don't have a living will

&

B) You are in a state where you can't voice your wishes

You have kind fo thrown your choice in the matter out the window, and left it to your legal guardian. Don't like it? Get a will written up.

 

[human5892]

I hate that I've been sucked into this story but call me a sucker.

Anyone that is doubting her husband is clueless! The man has been fighting for his wife for 15 years and for what? If he was a scumbag he would have just walked. What possible motivation does he have to put up with this. The only explanation is love. He deeply loved this women. If he was a scumbag he would have cleaned out the settlement years ago and been living on beach while she rots in a hospital bed.

Her parents are the ones that need to take a look in the mirror who are they doing this for her or them?

Plus, even if her husband is a BAD MAN, it doesn't change the fact that he is her guardian by law. It doesn't change the fact that Terry Schiavo will never, ever, ever "come out" of her "coma".

That people are resorting to character attacks on Michael just confirms their lack of reasonable, rational evidence to support their point of view.

 

[xsarien]

HOW do you conclude that, though? Trust the husband when her parents seem to think otherwise. It seems out of the question that a court could determine beyond the shadow of a doubt that her wishes are being upheld when she can't express her wishes and when there is no living will.

That aside, the law dictates that the husband's word comes before the parents' word. You also have to figure into the equation that it's highly unlikely that anyone would ever say, or put in writing, "If I'm ever in a vegetative state, just keep me going, really, I think it'd be cool!"

Use some logic, Oli. You're doing nothing but dabbling in hypotheticals and emotions.

 

[Drinky Crow]

On top of that, they don't even have credible character attacks -- just GOSSIP and SPECULATION. Good Christians all!

 

[mightynine]

HOW do you conclude that, though? Trust the husband when her parents seem to think otherwise.

Because you know why? I have yet to be given a true reason to doubt the husband. Money? It's gone to her care, and it's gone. When money's been thrown at him to leave, he didn't.

I can't find ONE reason why the husband should not be taken on his word here. Cue the response: "Well, he's an adulterer!" My response: "Was he when the court battle began? And if he wasn't, what other reason should I not trust him? Because he had a mullet?"

Attacking this guy, when that's not the issue, is not an argument. But if you want to go ahead and throw assumptions around, what if Terri told her parents her wishes, but they refuse to heed them? Who's the bad guy now?

And you want to throw something else out, when is a fun nugget to chew on, but I can't really back it up, I was told that the parents encouraged Michael to start dating again, in the hopes that he would divorce Terri to go with someone else. Like I said, I can't back this up, but it's a fun thing to chew on.

 

[olimario]

Stem cells will never do anything for her?
No future medical breakthrough will ever do anything for her?

I say at least try to feed her something. If she can swallow on her own then let her parents feed her. Witholding food from somebody who can eat on their own IS illegal. It's starvation.

 

[theo]

Stem cells will never do anything for her?
No future medical breakthrough will ever do anything for her?

I say at least try to feed her something. If she can swallow on her own then let her parents feed her. Witholding food from somebody who can eat on their own IS illegal. It's starvation.

SHES BRAIN DEAD

and you people are the ones trying to stop stem cell research anyway

hypocrites!

 

[Drinky Crow]

Is it starvation if she can't feel it, and has absolutely no consciousness or sentience?

 

[xsarien]

Stem cells will never do anything for her?
No future medical breakthrough will ever do anything for her?

Thanks to Bush stifling stem cell research, it probably won't do anything for her within her lifetime. Then again, I'm not sure how far along we'd be anyway if that kind of research wasn't slowed. There are huge parts of her brain missing, Oli. Replaced with spinal fluid.

She ain't coming back, her parents - and the right-to-lifers are in denial about that.

Is it starvation if she can't feel it, and has absolutely no consciousness or sentience?

Technically, yes. But it ceases to be cruel.

 

[mightynine]

So we keep her alive for 20 years, and stem cells do nothing for her? "Well, let's keep her alive because we might have a medical advancement in another 20 years!"

How come some people just can't let go?

Hope is one thing. Knowing when to let go is another.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

I say at least try to feed her something. If she can swallow on her own then let her parents feed her. Witholding food from somebody who can eat on their own IS illegal. It's starvation.

its not about what her parents want. Obviously this man is very passionate about following through with her wishes, which is what every court that has seen this case has found, that she didn't want to live this way.

and if she can swallow and eat on her own, Dr. Olimario, why is there a tube in her stomach that feeds her?

 

[theo]

they should freeze her next to ted williams and walt disney :lol

 

[olimario]

Is it starvation if she can't feel it, and has absolutely no consciousness or sentience?

Yes! Her body shuts down due to lack of nourishment. Feeling or not, it's starvation.
And I'm for Stem Cell research.
Something COULD be done in her lifetime. It's stupid to say NOTHING will EVER be done.
I heard the story, and not through word of mouth, of a girl with half a brain and nothing but fluid in the other half of her head. A girl who functions normally. It doesn't seem to me like fluid has anything to do with her being brain dead.

 

[Drinky Crow]

It's not rational any more. It's just a banner for Fundamentalists to crusade under; to announce and declaim what they value, and to take up the metaphorical sword in the name of their rather hostile interpretation of God's will.

If Terry Schiavo was an Iraqi, would they care?

 

[Drinky Crow]

oli, so why do you discount the testimonies of countless medical professionals and the wisdom of the courts in favor of an anecdote and the testimony of one nurse?

 

[xsarien]

Yes! Her body shuts down due to lack of nourishment. Feeling or not, it's starvation.
And I'm for Stem Cell research.
Something COULD be done in her lifetime. It's stupid to say NOTHING will EVER be done.
I heard the story, and not through word of mouth, of a girl with half a brain and nothing but fluid in the other half of her head. A girl who functions normally. It doesn't seem to me like fluid has anything to do with her being brain dead.

If the parts of the brain that control conscious thought are liquid, that's something else entirely.

 

[tedtropy]

So we keep her alive for 20 years, and stem cells do nothing for her? "Well, let's keep her alive because we might have a medical advancement in another 20 years!"

How come some people just can't let go?

Hope is one thing. Knowing when to let go is another.

I agree her situation is pretty hopeless, but I think you'd do well to put yourself in her parent's situation. This is their daughter, and in their mind, she's still alive somewhere in that decaying brain of hers. For this to happen is to lose all hope for them. While that may be what's best in the long run, who is anyone else to decide that...

 

[Drinky Crow]

It's been 15 years. If they haven't lost hope by now, they probably have an agenda.

 

[human5892]

I heard the story, and not through word of mouth, of a girl with half a brain and nothing but fluid in the other half of her head. A girl who functions normally. It doesn't seem to me like fluid has anything to do with her being brain dead.

IRRELEVANT!

It doesn't matter what anything seems like to you! Are you really trying to argue with the opinion of certified doctors trained in their field because this one girl you heard about is okay and ergo Terry Schiavo might be?

Jesus, man. Know when you're beaten. The only way Terry Schiavo is coming back in the future is as a cyborg with a rebuilt brain.

 

[olimario]

oli, so why do you discount the testimonies of countless medical professionals and the wisdom of the courts in favor of an anecdote and the testimony of one nurse?

I'm holding out hope that something could be done for her. And I really fail to believe all the first hand stories and completely false. I don't see what good it does for those people to lie.

 

[Drinky Crow]

Who says they're lying? People often believe they've seen things that didn't actually occur, or retroactively edit their memories to convince themselves that something occurred because of internal or external pressure.

The point is: you're deliberately discounting the knowledge of medical professionals who have observed and monitored her for FIFTEEN YEARS just because their judgment contradicts your beliefs.

 

[xsarien]

I'm holding out hope that something could be done for her. And I really fail to believe all the first hand stories and completely false. I don't see what good it does for those people to lie.

You of all people should know an attention whore when you see one, Oli. They want to get on TV, they want to preach their agenda to the world, and yes, they'd lie, exaggerate, and claim to have seen or cared for Terri if it meant getting into the spotlight; to become part of the story.

 

[darscot]

I agree her situation is pretty hopeless, but I think you'd do well to put yourself in her parent's situation. This is their daughter, and in their mind, she's still alive somewhere in that decaying brain of hers. For this to happen is to lose all hope for them. While that may be what's best in the long run, who is anyone else to decide that...

Please common sense has to prevail. If I decided it was best for my child to lock him in his room untill he was 18would that make it ok. Keeping this women in this state is pointless. Any possiblity that she may be aware just makes it all the more cruel.

 

[Azih]

I heard the story, and not through word of mouth...

Fuck you just broke MY brain. I can feel it turning to liquid as I type this.

 

[Archaix]

Yes! Her body shuts down due to lack of nourishment. Feeling or not, it's starvation.
And I'm for Stem Cell research.
Something COULD be done in her lifetime. It's stupid to say NOTHING will EVER be done.
I heard the story, and not through word of mouth, of a girl with half a brain and nothing but fluid in the other half of her head. A girl who functions normally. It doesn't seem to me like fluid has anything to do with her being brain dead.

It's been said before (likely many times in the thread, but I slipped into a comatose state in the middle of it...either that or I just smashed my face into the monitor and woke up later, but the fact that I woke up proves that Schiavo can recover too! If I go to sleep and can't feel anything, then when I wake up, it's just like being brain dead!), but the brain isn't very simple. You can function with various injuries to your brain. You can function with the brain being split in two, it's been done as TREATMENT for epileptic patients, but Schiavo cannot function. It doesn't work like that. You can't take one story, which may not hav

 

[mightynine]

Something COULD be done in her lifetime.

And I COULD win the lottery tomorrow. But I can't give you any factual reason to point to for you to believe that.

You have to back up that claim, Oli. And in a court, if you can't back that up with some sort of fact, you're going to be shut down.

I don't like this anymore than you, but I respect the court and I respect the law. A courtroom should not rule by emotions only. Sure you can emotional, but get emotional over the facts. And if your argument is not successful (especially after numerous appeals), then that's it.

And Oli? Most of the people involved now (especially the politicans, ALL of them, on both sides) have an agenda. And right now, some of them are deciding that the law shouldn't get in the way of the "right decision". And that scares me. It should you to. Because the next time this happens, it might not be for YOUR "right decision."

 

[tedtropy]

IRRELEVANT!

It doesn't matter what anything seems like to you! Are you really trying to argue with the opinion of certified doctors trained in their field because this one girl you heard about is okay and ergo Terry Schiavo might be?

Jesus, man. Know when you're beaten. The only way Terry Schiavo is coming back in the future is as a cyborg with a rebuilt brain.

Boy there's a scary thought - a cyborg Schiavo reeking havoc on a society that kept her comatose body plugged in for 15 years or so.

 

[tedtropy]

Please common sense has to prevail. If I decided it was best for my child to lock him in his room untill he was 18would that make it ok. Keeping this women in this state is pointless. Any possiblity that she may be aware just makes it all the more cruel.

Hey, I agree, but that's not my daughter laying there and I don't think anyone can pretend to know how they'd react in such a situation. We can preach our moral judgements all we want, but rarely are we tested in a manner like this...

 

[human5892]

Boy there's a scary thought - a cyborg Schiavo reeking havoc on a society that kept her comatose body plugged in for 15 years or so.

:lol

That really calls for a Terminator-Schiavo Photoshop, but the workstation I'm on today doesn't have it. Damn.

 

[impirius]

Want a thorough, unbiased, and rational analysis of Schiavo's condition? Read the report filed by her Guardian ad Litem in December of 2003. Wolfson seems compassionate and humble, and the way he dealt with the case on Countdown last night should make the blowhards on both sides feel ashamed.

Here's the conclusion.

The GAL concludes from the medical records and consultations with medical experts that the scope and weight of the medical information within the file concerning Theresa Schiavo consists of competent, well documented information that she is in a persistent vegetative state with no likelihood of improvement, and that the neurological and speech pathology evidence in the file support the contention that she cannot take oral nutrition or hydration and cannot consciously interact with her environment. The GAL concludes that the trier of fact and the evidence that served as the basis for the decisions regarding Theresa Schiavo were firmly grounded within Florida statutory and case law, which clearly and unequivocally provide for the removal of artificial nutrition in cases of persistent vegetative states, where there is no advance directive, through substituted/proxy judgment of the guardian and/or the court as guardian, and with the use of evidence regarding the medical condition and the intent of the parties that was deemed, by the trier of fact to be clear and convincing.

 

[darscot]

Hey, I agree, but that's not my daughter laying there and I don't think anyone can pretend to know how they'd react in such a situation. We can preach our moral judgements all we want, but rarely are we tested in a manner like this...

Agreed, and I damn well hope I never have to. I firmly belive if it was my wife, son or daughter I would have put a pillow over there face years ago.

 

[mrmyth]

oli, so why do you discount the testimonies of countless medical professionals and the wisdom of the courts in favor of an anecdote and the testimony of one nurse?

Cause he's a douche.



And regarding stem cells, even if we could grow her another brain, it wouldn't help. 'Terry' is GONE. The part of her brain that held consciousness and memory is GONE. Even if we could grow another brain in her head all we'd be doing is saddling an infant with a full-grown body that's been bedridden for 15 years. It wouldn't be Terry, because Terry is GONE.

 

[fse]

here is something i found...

 

[rc213]

Just saw on ABC7 that the Florida judge has denied Jeb Bush/Florida Department of Children and Families request for custody of Terri Schiavo.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

Just saw on ABC7 that the Florida judge has denied Jeb Bush/Florida Department of Children and Families request for custody of Terri Schiavo.

Load'er up!

 

[GLoK]

Man, reading Oli's posts reminds me of those little windup toys you got as a kid. Just bumbles around blindly until it hits a wall, then it backs up, turns and bumbles around some more. The angle changes, but it's guaranteed the thing will hit another wall in a few seconds.

What are you missing here Oli? How many times does it need to be reitterated that the doctors and nurses who testified in court said that she was in a vegetative state, that portions of her brain that hold memory and cognitive thought are liquid? What are you hoping for here, that in the next 40 years we'll develop a coffee filter to pour the liquid through that'll filter out the thoughts and memories to be implanted in a new brain?

No anecdotal stories about a girl with a head full of liquid, or some nurse, are going to change those testimonies. Where were all these people for the last 15 years? Why is it now, after so many years of it being accepted that she's in a vegetative state, have all these people SUDDENLY come forward to say that there's evidence to the contrary?

Why only now? Let's think about what's changed since this became a national spot light, and the previous 15 years. That's right.. the only thing that's changed is the spot light. And with every spotlight comes every panderer, every preacher, ever agenda carrying freak.

Get over it, Terri is dead. Her body lives on.

 

[brooklyngooner]

There's a good article today's NYT online (not sure about print) about the supposed "renowned" neurologist that Jeb will use to try to reinsert the tube, William Cheshire. It makes for hilarious reading. Like so many other aspects and actions of this administration, it would all be comic if it weren't so fucking dangerous.

 

[mightynine]

There's a good article today's NYT online (not sure about print) about the supposed "renowned" neurologist that Jeb will use to try to reinsert the tube, William Cheshire. It makes for hilarious reading. Like so many other aspects and actions of this administration, it would all be comic if it weren't so fucking dangerous.

It's an interesting read, no doubt. (Though those who are Hannitized would discount it simply because it's from the NYT.)

I wouldn't be the least surprised if there's been numerous doctors brought in by the family to try to find someone who would diagnose in their favor, and since he's the one, boom, hello "renowned" doctor.

I like how he says that some people can judge too quickly that somone is in PVS:

In an article last year in Physician magazine, published by the evangelical group Focus on the Family, Dr. Cheshire, 44, said doctors are too quick to declare that a patient is in a persistent vegetative state.

"I'm not sure the diagnosis is used consistently," he told Physician. "I am sometimes asked if a patient is in P.V.S., but it's only been a few days. By definition, you have to wait at least a month."

Well, I think it's been more than a month here, eh?

Furthermore:

Yesterday, in an affidavit supporting a petition by the Florida Department of Children and Families in the case, Dr. Cheshire said it was more likely that Ms. Schiavo was in a "minimally conscious state."

"Although Terri did not demonstrate during our 90-minute visit compelling evidence of verbalization, conscious awareness or volitional behavior," he wrote, "yet the visitor has the distinct sense of the presence of a living human being who seems at some level to be aware of some things around her."

So, a new diagnosis based on a 90 minute visit? No surprise the court decided that's not going to trump the hours of research already put into this.

Fox says the parents are going back to federal court. God bless 'em, they're going to keep fighting until she stops breathing.

 

[mrmyth]

Fox says the parents are going back to federal court. God bless 'em, they're going to keep fighting until she stops breathing.

They'll be suing for wrongful death even after she dies. They've tied their whole existence to this thing.

 

[DarienA]

What 7 years of this... infriggin credible.

 

[brooklyngooner]

I enjoyed these tidbits:

Mr. Bush called Dr. Cheshire a "renowned neurologist," but he is not widely known in the neurology or bioethics fields. Asked about him, Dr. Arthur Caplan, director of the Center for Bioethics at the University of Pennsylvania, replied, "Who?"


Dr. Ronald Cranford, a neurologist and medical ethicist at the University of Minnesota Medical School who has examined Ms. Schiavo on behalf of the Florida courts and declared her to be irredeemably brain-damaged, said, "I have no idea who this Cheshire is," and added: "He has to be bogus, a pro-life fanatic. You'll not find any credible neurologist or neurosurgeon to get involved at this point and say she's not vegetative."

 

[Lucky Forward]

Maybe Dr. Cheshire got his credentials the same place as that "journalist" who would give Bush the softball questions at his press conferences.

 

[Pimpwerx]

Maybe Dr. Cheshire got his credentials the same place as that "journalist" who would give Bush the softball questions at his press conferences.

Male Escort Academy? PEACE.

 

[maharg]