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Just finished Rahxephon. I have questions. (spoilers obviously)

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I recently started watching Rahxephon specifically because people mention how much it's like NGE, and sometimes they say how it's so much better (I disagree but I'll get into that later). Having just finished the series, I have to admit that it does have an ending that gives it solid closure, unlike NGE(IMHO anyway). Still, there were some things that I and a few of my friends were wondering.

Was Reika a real person or just something Ayato made up?

There was some debate as to who Reika really was. I'll just explain what I thought first for simplicity sake.

Reika wasn't real. She was basically made up of fragmented memories of Ayato "remembering" Haruka way back when they were in middle school. Because of those mind control devices that the Mu used, the memory was changed and distorted but never really disappeared which is why Ayato thought she was real. The girl he was trying to draw was in fact a slightly altered memory of Haruka when she was younger.

A counter-theory that one of my friends suggested was that Reika was a real person and was at one time someone he desired the most but by meeting the older Haruka, he re-tuned the past so Haruka took the place of Reika. I disagree with that so like I said, this is still debated.

Who is who to Ayato. What is his family tree?

When Maya in one episode said she didn't carry Ayato, everyone assumed she wasn't his true mother(she may have actually said "I'm not your true mother", I don't quite remember). Later Quan calls Maya "sister" and I remember actually blurting out, "Oh shit, Quan is Ayato's mother" to the confusion of my friends. No one is quite clear on who is who to Ayato. Is Quan really Ayato's mother? Is Watari Ayato's father?(this may have been actually said, I don't remember). There was one point where Haruka calls Maya "aunt" IIRC. WTF is going on here?

I feel like this is something I need to diagram to really understand. :(

What/who exactly are the Mu?

Again, no one who watched it with me was exactly clear on this so this is my theory. The Mu aren't really "aliens" but aren't human either. They're from some other dimension that's parallel to our own and occasionally they get "spirited away" from their dimension and stay in ours. The head of the Foundation, that Barbem guy, was one of the first Mu to do this.

What I don't get is how a war started between Mu and Humans. Why do the Mu, through D-1s, attack human settlements? When one D-1 started attacking and seemed to be linked in some way to Hiroko, she didn't even understand that she was Mu and seemed pretty naive as to what was going on. She also didn't seem to want to attack but did so anyway. Why? Was it just something in their nature? Makoto was also referred to as a D-1 by the foundation in a few episodes, does that mean he could have attacked Humans via a D-1 or was he himself a D-1 in humanoid form?

It was the humans that created Tokyo Jupiter in that final attack against the Mu, correct?

Eh....I had more questions but I've forgotten some of them. We finished the series and talked about it last night but I guess when I fell asleep I forgot some of the things I wanted to ask.

As for comparisons between Rahxephon and NGE, I'd still give the edge to NGE if just for one major reason, the cast of characters.

The characters in NGE were complex and had their own motives. It was hard to say who was "evil" and who was "good" in NGE. You could hate a protagonist and still hope they make it through, and you could like a bad guy and not want them to die. All the characters had their hang ups, even the likable ones which IMO was very refreshing when you look at a lot of other Anime with one-dimensional characters.

Rahxephon was like a lot of other anime. Good guys were good guys and bad guys were bad guys. Characters were pretty one dimensional and even characters they attempted to expand upon to give them complexity failed miserably, Makoto in particular but also Ayato in a sense. Almost everyone associated with the Foundation was a one dimensional bad guy and just about everyone associated with Terra was good.

Ayato, like Shinji, had the raging teen angst but it seemed so artificial and wrong compared to Shinji. Though a lot of people find Shinji to be a whiney bitch, I'd defend him and say he has very good reason to be angsty. His life sucks balls, big time. In contrast, Ayato has what looks like to be a pretty good life, both in Tokyo Jupiter and out. He had a stable cast of friends in both and people who cared for him, in both worlds. He had very little reason to be angsty but he was anyway, which IHO was a lame attempt at giving him more complexity. Likewise, they dedicated a whole episode to Makoto's past in order to give him depth and yet at the end, I still didn't give a shit about him at all.

Look at a character like Asuka in NGE. All the stuff she says and does makes you absolutely hate her and yet, she's probably one of the most interesting characters ever developed in an anime IMO. You can hate her but at the same time you can sympathize and even root for her all at once. I never felt that for any of the characters in Rahxephon.

Now, that's not to say that I didn't like Rahxephon or that I didn't think it did some things right. I loved the character artwork in Rahxephon and prefer it over NGE. I think the only other anime that had similar character design was in Witch Hunter Robin.

I also liked the whole time/space distortion idea that separated Ayato from the rest of the world and did appreciate their attempt at making a more concise and clear final episode. Though I still have questions, I felt like I understood enough and the final episode was enough closure. With NGE, I had to watch EoE before I really felt like it was complete. I don't feel like I need to watch the Rahxephon movie, and from what I've heard, I might even avoid it.

So yeah, I enjoyed Rahxephon but I can't see it as a better series than NGE.

*edit*

Holy shit. They may in fact be my longest post ever.
 

Gorey

Member
The Shadow said:
Was Reika a real person or just something Ayato made up?
I'd agree with your analysis, which is that Reika symbolizes Haruka. That's what I came away with, anyway. The overlap and such are a result of the time/space whackiness surrounding Ayato.
Who is who to Ayato. What is his family tree?
I'm more lost than you are. Looking forward to someone explaining it.
What/who exactly are the Mu?
Even more than Ayato's lineage, this was something I never quite understood. It seems like they are competing somehow to influence the 'tuning of the world', but how? And why?

As far as Rahxephon to NGE...... Rah felt like NGE with a lower what-the-fuck quotient. And fewer aggravating characters. Nevertheless, it does't trump NGE in my mind, primarily due to the fact that NGE did it first, and succeeds in many ways because of said whacky characters.

Edit:
The Shadow said:
I also liked the whole time/space distortion idea that separated Ayato from the rest of the world and did appreciate their attempt at making a more concise and clear final episode. Though I still have questions, I felt like I understood enough and the final episode was enough closure. With NGE, I had to watch EoE before I really felt like it was complete.
Missed this the first time....very good point, I agree completely.
 
Gorey said:
I'd agree with your analysis, which is that Reika symbolizes Haruka. That's what I came away with, anyway. The overlap and such are a result of the time/space whackiness surrounding Ayato.

I'm pretty firm on my theory but there is one glaring detail that I can't shake. What was Reika doing in uniform in the later episodes?

That's the one major reason why my friend thinks they're two different people and I have to admit, it's a good reasons because I sure as hell can't explain it. Obviously the specter Reika was the Rahxephon but that doesn't explain how see seemed to be a physical presence later on.
 

Gorey

Member
I finished up Rahxephon last febuary, so my memory is rusty, but I feel like the time/space dilations were growing as the series neared the end.. If ayato is the special 'tuner', then as events progressed it seems like he might have inadvertently been influencing/bending his reality- hence a 'literal' reika appearing. What happened to the physical reika in uniform- I can't remember?
 

Fafalada

Fafracer forever
Shadow said:
A counter-theory that one of my friends suggested was that Reika was a real person and was at one time someone he desired the most but by meeting the older Haruka, he re-tuned the past so Haruka took the place of Reika. I disagree with that so like I said, this is still debated.
Your friend's theory is wrong. Reika IS Haruka (or rather, Haruka as she was at a younger age) - the recently released Rahxephon movie clears this up without any doubt (also adds some nice scenes of their actual past as teenagers).

Who is who to Ayato. What is his family tree?
This part is also better explained in the movie - namely the implication is that mulians at birth still retain red blood, which changes to blue at a later age, loosing their "human" memories in the process.
Maya apparently birthed Ayato before her blood turned blue, so she doesn't have actual memory of her motherhood, which also explains her statement about carying Ayato.

What/who exactly are the Mu?
I would really need to rewatch the series for this one - the only thing that was apparent to me is that Mu and humans are implied to have been the same race at one point. Not really sure who spawned who though.


As for comparisons to NGE, I disagree about characters being more complex (the main ones anyway), NGE chars are just a whole lot more f#ed up.
There is a rather large disparity in how effectivelly not a single character in NGE is likeable, while in Rah, pretty much everyon is likeable and I couldn't even bring myself to properly dislike any of the bad guys, as they were all portrayed as victims of circumstances and/or their own dellusions - including Barbem for that matter.

And that disparity isn't limited to characters either - while both stories portray apocalyptic battle for the world, the world portrayed by NGE that people are trying to "protect" doesn't really feel worth saving most of the time, and generally feels just as depressing as the people living it.
In sharp contrast, the world of Rah outside Tokyo always has a positive feel to it, and something that actually feels worth saving from the characters perspective.

That said, I felt NGE overall story was more well thought out (ignoring the endings :p),
 
Check out this site: http://www.khantazi.org/Rec/Anime/Index.html. It goes in-depth on every volume, and even features a RahXephon timeline. Great stuff that's extremely accurate and well thought out (in my opinion, of course). If it was closer to the release of the individual DVD volumes I could wax poetic about the show myself, but at this point all of that information has faded. That link basically sums up what I got out of the show, though.
 
Gorey said:
What happened to the physical reika in uniform- I can't remember?

Nothing in particular happens to her, though she does disappear as abruptly as she appears. It's just that she's no longer a figment of Ayato's memory but rather a person that even Makoto and Mamoru could see. I just don't understand why they could see her the same way Ayato could see her, the altered childhood memory of Haruka.
 
Fafalada said:
And that disparity isn't limited to characters either - while both stories portray apocalyptic battle for the world, the world portrayed by NGE that people are trying to "protect" doesn't really feel worth saving most of the time, and generally feels just as depressing as the people living it.
In sharp contrast, the world of Rah outside Tokyo always has a positive feel to it, and something that actually feels worth saving from the characters perspective.

Though I agree with your assessment of the worlds (NGE dark and depressing/Rah happy and positive), I disagree that it makes them any more or less saving.

Despite how crappy life is in NGE, Shinji believed it was still worth living. As shitty as Shinji's life was, he still valued the small group of people he knew just enough that it swayed his decision. To me that was a real triumph and a real change for Shinji. There was a real inner battle. A genuine honest to god battle inside and it added tention because it could really go either way.

With Rahxehpon, it seemed anti-climatic because the world was so happy and positive. There was no need for Ayato's inner turmoil because life was fucking great for him. His only problem outside of Tokyo Jupiter was that he wasn't necessary anymore to Terra and I couldn't help but think, so fucking what? He didn't want to fight anyway and now he could do what he really loved, painting. There was no inner turmoil (no need for one anyway) and the final battle was essentually a no brainer. DUH! Why wouldn't he want to continue the life he's been living? There was no tention and if Ayato had done anything different, you'd think it was a total dumbass. No conflict at all IMO.

Edit:

Thanks for that link metsallica. It helps explain a lot of the backstory, stuff that was pretty fragmented in the series IMO.
 
No problem! It seems to be an issue with a lot of these types of series... Their creators go a bit too insane and jam 10,000 concepts into 23-minute episodes. What seems like a quick flash to us is extremely important backstory to them!
 

Dead

well not really...yet
Has anyone read the Rahxephon Bible? That supposedly clears up and explains many of the intricacies of the show.

I managed to get a good grasp of the show, though I watched it like 3 times in its entirety, which is made easy by how much replay value it has, right off the bat youll notice things you never saw at first...

The movie btw is worth it alone for the new scenes with Ayato and Haruka imho, although the overall structure and decision to re-use animation certainly degrades it. Its not even in the same stratosphere as EoE though theyre 2 completely different types of films.
 
I have the bible. It's nice, but it only covers the first half of the show so it basically misses out on the important revelations.
 

TheOMan

Tagged as I see fit
I finished up this series last year and really liked it...I would say that the conclusions drawn in this thread in the link are probably valid as they are mostly what we came up with as well.

The Shadow - if you haven't watched the movie yet, do yourself a favour and give it a spin. It helps tie up some loose ends (but not all of them).

I haven't watched Neon Genesis yet, but it sounds like it's worth it. I was told by somebody else that RahXephon and NGE were too similar to warrant watching both. I'm guessing this is untrue?
 
On the surface they're similar but if you really take the time to get into each story the differences are apparent. Make sure you pick up the platinum-edition DVDs as they're exponentially better than the original release.
 

duckroll

Member
Ok I think I can clear this up. I pretty clear about just about anything in RahXephon that you can be clear about, and I have all the artbooks and the Complete Guide (which has more info than the Bible by far, it's mostly text and analysis).

First I need to make something clear. RahXephon TV != RahXephon movie. The movie cannot "clear up" anything in the series because they're two completely different plots with similar footage. This is expressed very clearly by the director and writers. The RahXephon movie is an alternate view on the themes set up in the TV series but the characters largely play very different roles. So we have to be clear about this, different, not the same. Ok? :)

Ok who is Reika. Mishima Reika does not exist. But Ixtli does. The Ixtli is the soul of the RahXephon and manifests itself to all potential Ollins in the form that they want to see most. Ixtli exists only in the TV series and not in the movie version. The person Ayato wanted to see most was Mishima Haruka, but because of the memory modifications he cannot remember her name properly and hence remembered it as Mishima Reika. At no point does Ixtli herself use the name, and when she does manifest herself to Makoto later in the series, she refers to herself as Lt. Haruka. :)

Who is Ayato. TV Version: Ayato is a male clone of Quon. Itsuki is also a male clone of Quon and Ayato's twin brother. Think of it as Solid and Liquid Snake and Big Boss. Quon is a potential Ollin and offered herself to Barbem for experiments in exchange that her younger sister Maya can live a normal life. Because they are clones of Quon, both are also potential Ollins, but Itsuki never reached his potential unlike Ayato, hence he is the inferior clone. Maya and Watari were Ayato's foster parents as in the ones who brought him up. Only Maya is related to him by blood because he is her elder sister's clone. Movie Version: Ayato is the child of Maya and an unnamed Kamina, because Maya was a potential Ollin in the movie version, by giving birth to a child she passed the ability on to him and lost it herself. Ayato is not a clone in the movie.

What is MU? MU is another dimension that runs on a seperate timeline from our world. They have advance technology far beyond what we have even dreamed of. Barbem was a MU scientist who first attempted to harness the RahXephon system in the MU world to experiment on time/space tuning, but since the RahXephon itself is a sentient creature more like a god than a robot, something went wrong and Barbem was banished from MU. He uses the technology he knows and uses it as overtechnology on Earth, quickly rising in the industrial sector and building power and money for himself to await the day where he can use RahXephon in our world to re-create MU here. He lives on century after century by transferring his mind into various cloned bodies.

Hope that clears stuff up, if you have any other questions I'll try and answer it if there's a "real" answer to it.
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
I dunno, but I thought that Reika being a manifestation/personification of the RahXephon was rather obvious.
 
Hitokage said:
I dunno, but I thought that Reika being a manifestation/personification of the RahXephon was rather obvious.

It is. I'm not sure why that needs to be explained.

Edit:

Unless people are reading too literally in what I said. No of course Reika isn't just some imaginary friend. Her image was based on a memory though.
 

Culex

Banned
RahXephon is my favorite anime of all time, much more than Neon Genesis Evangelion was.

It was a lot more emotional in all aspects, and I felt much more emotionaly attatched to the characters than in any other series. Ayato seems to be the perfect character.

This is the only show that has ever brought tears to my eyes. Episode 19 is the cu de grais of emotions.

When Ayato unkowningly kills Asahina, only to come back to the hotel room and find out how much she loved him is one of the most powerful moments in anime I've ever witnessed. I couldn't have seen it coming.
 
TheOMan said:
I haven't watched Neon Genesis yet, but it sounds like it's worth it. I was told by somebody else that RahXephon and NGE were too similar to warrant watching both. I'm guessing this is untrue?

There are fundamental similarities between the two series. Angsty teen in a giant mech, secret organization pulling the strings, weird alien-like beings causing havoc in weird looking vehicles, "love conquers all" type of message in the end, etc, etc. When I was talking about Rahxephon with my friends last night after we watched it, I couldn't stop referring the Rahxephon as Eva and the D-1 units as angels. It was accidental but funny at the same time.

Even so, there's enough differences to make it worthwhile. I didn't feel like I was watching the same anime over again. Though the core skeletal structure is the same, subplots and characters are much different. It's kind of apparent they're inspired by NGE though in a lot of ways.

I kinda wished I watched Rahxephon before NGE. I think NGE is a superior anime and I think I would have enjoyed Rahxephon more if I had watched it first. I still found it a good series though, but I know a lot of my criticism wouldn't even exist if I didn't have another similar series to compare like NGE.
 

Dead

well not really...yet
I think its kind of unfair to label Rahxephon as entirely an Eva ripoff. After all they definately both share the same influences, ie early sunrise mecha shows and the like, hell thats the background that Rahxephons director Yutaka Izubuchi came from if I recall correctly. They both share common inspiration, yeah the eva influence is there, but hey, just a little thought.
 
Culex you must not watch much anime cause episode 19 was typical Anime cliche i saw that shit coming a mile away.
I didnt like the last episode much it seemed like a cop out.
 

Culex

Banned
Also worth noting is the production value of Eva noticably drops after around episode 20. I think Gainax ran into financing problems or something. RahXephon's is top notch throughout.
 

Dead

well not really...yet
Culex said:
Also worth noting is the production value of Eva noticably drops after around episode 20. I think Gainax ran into financing problems or something. RahXephon's is top notch throughout.
I think theire budget was slashed after some rumblings with sponsors on what happened on a prior episode IIRC
 

Culex

Banned
Kabuki Waq said:
Culex you must not watch much anime cause episode 19 was typical Anime cliche i saw that shit coming a mile away.
I didnt like the last episode much it seemed like a cop out.

I watch plenty of anime, and I bet I watch more than you. I've been importing anime since 1994.
 
Kabuki Waq said:
Culex you must not watch much anime cause episode 19 was typical Anime cliche i saw that shit coming a mile away.

Yeah, pretty much.

Heh, my friend actually said something like, "Well, she's going to die." when it was becoming apparent that they were getting close. I think it was that montage when they showed them watching TV together.

Culex said:
I watch plenty of anime, and I bet I watch more than you. I've been importing anime since 1994.

Despite your experience, you're not picking up on too-frequently used formulas to get people attached to particular characters. I haven't been watching anime all that long and I saw that coming a mile away.
 
Yea she had death written all over her.

I sort of found Raxephon to be cold and uninvolving in some parts it was still decent but it definately relied on cliched Angst. There were even some Tenchi bits that dragged it down.
 

Culex

Banned
The Shadow said:
Yeah, pretty much.

Heh, my friend actually said something like, "Well, she's going to die." when it was becoming apparent that they were getting close. I think it was that montage when they showed them watching TV together.



Despite your experience, you're not picking up on too-frequently used formulas to get people attached to particular characters. I haven't been watching anime all that long and I saw that coming a mile away.

That's nice and good for you, no need to make a blanket statement that I don't pick up plot aspects.

It's been 2 years since I've seen RahXephon, I remember being surprised that she died in the way that she did.
 
Kabuki Waq said:
Yea she had death written all over her.

I sort of found Raxephon to be cold and uninvolving in some parts it was still decent but it definately relied on cliched Angst. There were even some Tenchi bits that dragged it down.

That was pretty much my major complain in my first post. Ayato's angst seemed so artificial and misplaced. In a very strange sense, I thought Ayato was more of a whiner and bitch than NGE's Shinji, mainly because his angst seemed out of place, whereas Shinji had reason to be distant and cold.

I really truly think that if they made the characters just a little more complex, thought them out a little more, it would have been comparable to NGE. As it is, the characters seemed so one-dimensional and lifeless. Megumi in particular got on my nerves because she ended up being the typical "younger sister" character that had a crush on "older brother".

It falls short because they relied too heavily on established character types instead of really designing their own.
 
Shadow you should Check out DUAL! Its nice change of pace when it comes to mech shows. I also enjoyed Blue gender as well. Do not watch the butchered Cartoon network version.

Gasaraki is a really neat show as well possibly the most detailed mechs ever.
 

atomsk

Party Pooper
The Shadow said:
I feel like this is something I need to diagram to really understand. :(

the booklet that came with the movie+box has such a diagram.

my scanner is on the fritz though =(
 
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