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[AniHawk]

I'm kinda torn about this. On one hand, it shows the events leading up to the Joker becoming the Joker, and showed some pretty twisted things he did in order to break Gordon. Then again, it tried to make the Joker look like a sympathetic character.. which I don't think is necessary. Still enjoyed it overall though. Ending wasn't so bad as I thought it'd be.

The Long Halloween
This was a good murder mystery, and I was suspecting the usual people, and completely skipped over the fact that

Spoiler

Alberto's body was never found. What was with Gilda at the end burning all of Harvey's things? She thought Harvey killed those people? One of my favorite moments was Harvey flipping the coin before becoming Two-Face. Nice, eerie foreshadowing.

This was also a good murder mystery. Not all entirely original (almost the same thing as The Long Halloween). Really downplayed on

Spoiler

Robin/Dick Grayson until the end, but it worked out fine introducing Batman and Robin rather than being a book about it.

One thing I didn't like in The Long Halloween and Dark Victory was the usage of the villains. Two-Face could have easily been the bad guy in all of Dark Victory without the Joker, Mr. Freeze, Mad Hatter, and others working for him. My favorite moment from this was Julian Day being the voice in Alberto's head, and the line, "The Calendar Man is being forgotten... And that is unacceptable."

All-around, great read. Only thing I disliked about this was how much of a freakin' moron and total tool Superman was made out to be. I'm not the biggest fan of Supes, but you'd think he might be a bit smarter or something.

Took me a while to get into this, but I really liked how Peter was handled. He acted like a 15 year old. He was sarcastic, rude, easily excited, and easily upset. I think the last volume went a -tad- too fast though. Think we should have gotten to see the symbiote affect Peter's daily life more and more.

Anyway, besides Batman: Year One (I'll get it if I can find it ), what else would be some great Batman comics and Spider-Man comics? I've also heard a lot about Watchmen, so I'm thinking about picking it up, but how is Marvels?

 

[Wellington]

Hear I my thoughts on sopme of those books from other topics.

Went on to read Batman: The Long Halloween after that. Fuck, what a fantastic book. It's up there with Dark Knight Returns, and Year One for me. The murder mystery hooked me from the word go, and Batman's own internal struggle really just kept me slumped in my chair reading... and reading... and reading... what a long book. ;p Initially it was a bit touch and go. Little action, little conspiring, meeting some characters and getting more familiar with ones from Year One, after the first murder by 'Holiday' it was on from then.... It was great to see Batman as the detective. Lot's of fun, lots of action in each chapter. The best chapters though were the Mother's Day and Father's Day chapters... Never did I feel for Bruce as much as I did when he was being chased by Gordon when he believed that he was running away from the man that killed his parents (thanks to Scarecrow). The end of the Mother's Day chapter... the look on Bruce's face. Fucking powerful. Only topped by the very next chapter, possibly the strongest chapter I've ever read, not bad for a comic book. Bruce's "... I remember my father..." has been echoing in my head for several days now. Just so powerful. That page of panels was as close to perfection as humanly possible. Damn near brought a tear to my eye. Though the end of the book is kind of weird (the VERY end), it's a fucking MUST read for anyone interested in Batman, and anyone interested in comics at all. Jeph Loeb really did a great job trying to write like Frank Miller, but mixing in his own style.

Lastly I just finished Dark Victory today. While it is a pretty good read, I just don't think it ever climbed out of the shadow of The Long Halloween. It is meant to be a follow up, but the use of such similar plotlines kind of kills it for me. It was a great book, but it wasn't as much of an examination of Bruce Wayne/Batman's psyche as I've grown to like, but it's another good detective story and it does hit on some bat-issues. His isolationist philosophy is looked at pretty hard in this one. His feelings of betrayal after Harvey's transformation, and his desire to keep Gordon safe by keeping him at a distance are interesting, as is, of course, his adoption of Dick Greyson. It's cool 'cuz Bruce finally shared his humanity with someone other than Alfred. Poor Selina. ;p I'd recommend it, but only if you REALLY liked TLH, which I did.

Batman: The Killing Joke..... I am pretty mixed on this one. On the one hand it's a fantastic examination of the psychology between and behind the two arch-rivals. On the other hand that ending was just so off, in my opinion. Here we have the Joker in his most evil of roles and how does the book end? Batman and Joker laughing in the rain, and shortly thereafter the Joker is taken away in a police cruiser. Granted, the book does illustrate that there is a fine line between Batman's 'insanity' and Joker's insanity, it also shows how Joker got to that point and how he tried to turn Gordon to that point... but then that ending... I was somewhat hoping that Batman would kill him. It's definitely a great Batman story, but I can't say I hold it in as high a regard as say, Dark Knight Returns or...

I pretty much agree with ya on TLH and DV, but it seems I marked out just a bit more. DKR was very awesome indeed.

Year One is a must. DKSA is a must AVOID.

 

[Seth C]

I read Year One the other night. It's okay. Nothing spectacular.

 

[evil solrac v3.0]

I read Year One the other night. It's okay. Nothing spectacular.

for that, you shall burn in the pits of hell.

 

[AniHawk]

Year One is a must. DKSA is a must AVOID.

What's so bad about DKSA?

 

[Bowser]

What's so bad about DKSA?

Man, I've never even seen any of it besides the cover, and even I know it's horrible. Word of mouth spreads fast.

 

[Wellington]

A lot of things are, I read through about the first half of the first issue and just could not take it anymore. For one, the art is bone jarringly ugly. It's so ugly that it somehow detracts from my ability to read the book. Bright colors, horrid pencilling, no backgrounds everything you can think of that can go wrong, does.

Add to that a nonsensical story with hilariously boring characters. Admittedly, I didn't read all that far into the book, but I don't think I could stomach anymore of the shitty dialogue or forced speeches. I hate to pass judgement on shit I haven't finished (books, games, movies, you name it) but never has anything made me want to put it down faster than DKSA did.

 

[AniHawk]

A lot of things are, I read through about the first half of the first issue and just could not take it anymore. For one, the art is bone jarringly ugly. It's so ugly that it somehow detracts from my ability to read the book. Bright colors, horrid pencilling, no backgrounds everything you can think of that can go wrong, does.

Add to that a nonsensical story with hilariously boring characters. Admittedly, I didn't read all that far into the book, but I don't think I could stomach anymore of the shitty dialogue or forced speeches. I hate to pass judgement on shit I haven't finished (books, games, movies, you name it) but never has anything made me want to put it down faster than DKSA did.

Sounds like a winner.

Well, what about Marvels, have you read that?

 

[Asbel]

My two problems with DKR are:

Batman never grew up. He just grew old.. and dumb. Instead of having a contingency plan to get him out of trouble, he gets himself into trouble and gets out through luck.

Spoiler

like when robin first saves him

Protrayal of Superman through a zealous Bat-fan point of view.

Overall, I think the book had the 'cool' Batman moments, but lack the clever Batman.

So what's everyone's opinion for the best bat tpb (elseworld or not)? Long Halloween?

 

[AniHawk]

My two problems with DKR are:

Batman never grew up. He just grew old.. and dumb. Instead of having a conting\0\05{\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0im out of trouble, he gets himself into trouble and gets out through luck.

Spoiler

like when robin first saves him

Protrayal of Superman through a zealous Bat-fan point of view.

Overall, I think the book had the 'cool' Batman moments, but lack the clever Batman.

So what's everyone's opinion for the best bat tpb (elseworld or not)? Long Halloween?

tpb?

 

[BigJonsson]

I had to study DKR for school

 

[Bowser]

tpb?

tpb = trade paperback

 

[J2 Cool]

i kinda agree on Asbel's view of dark knight returns It was extremely cool and had some amazing moments but lacked Batman's cleverness

Spoiler

though the fight with the mutant in the mud kicked ass and was pretty damn clever imo

. But Batman really relies too much on straight luck and physical skill. On one hand it paints a realistic picture of an old superhero but not Batman. I prefer to believe Batman Beyond series' Batman who around 80 years old says 5 years earlier he could have taken these 3 thugs in a fight. Its just Batman at that age I'd believe would be extremely smart and each attack brilliant. I dunno, can't complain though. This was an epic and one fantastic read.

Batman: Year One meanwhile I read after DKR. Its different in its ambition but extremely well done. It really is Gordon's story just as much if not more than Batman's. Really a great story for Batman's first year though I'd love to see how Batman began to cope with bigger problems as was hinted to be starting up towards the quiet ending. Think I'll try and find Killing Joker next or Long Halloween. Both sound great.

 

[AniHawk]

i kinda agree on Asbel's view of dark knight returns It was extremely cool and had some amazing moments but lacked Batman's cleverness

Spoiler

though the fight with the mutant in the mud kicked ass and was pretty damn clever imo

. But Batman really relies too much on straight luck and physical skill. On one hand it paints a realistic picture of an old superhero but not Batman. I prefer to believe Batman Beyond series' Batman who around 80 years old says 5 years earlier he could have taken these 3 thugs in a fight. Its just Batman at that age I'd believe would be extremely smart and each attack brilliant. I dunno, can't complain though. This was an epic and one fantastic read.

Batman: Year One meanwhile I read after DKR. Its different in its ambition but extremely well done. It really is Gordon's story just as much if not more than Batman's. Really a great story for Batman's first year though I'd love to see how Batman began to cope with bigger problems as was hinted to be starting up towards the quiet ending. Think I'll try and find Killing Joker next or Long Halloween. Both sound great.

Actually, it's called The Killing Joke. Might help you out a bit when searching the stores or Amazon.

 

[nomoment]

Batman: Year One is the best Batman story, ever.

Oh yeah, and DKSA sucks. Never take comic recommendations from Matlock.

Thread closed.

 

[AniHawk]

Batman: Year One is the best Batman story, ever.

Oh yeah, and DKSA sucks. Never take comic recommendations from Matlock.

Thread closed.

No it isn't, no one ever answered me on Marvels.

 

[J2 Cool]

No it isn't, no one ever answered me on Marvels.

I actually had parts 1 and 3 out of 4 of Marvels in my garage. Dad buys and sells shit and he happened to pick up some comic books. But anyway. Can tell you from reading 1/4 of Marvels it's pretty good. The first volume really just immerses you in as a bystander to super heroes. You get that point of view. Starts a little slow as they want to "marvel" you by the slightest hint of super heroes and if you've read a bunch of graphic novels or comics you really kind of have to force yourself into the main characters shoes. The art really helps do that though as its very realistic paintings. So you can really imagine super heroes existing. It starts to get really interesting then towards the end of the first volume when the action picks up. I'd definetly recommend it. Also peaked at the 3rd volume and it begins to get to some truly awesome stuff

 

[AniHawk]

I actually had parts 1 and 3 out of 4 of Marvels in my garage. Dad buys and sells shit and he happened to pick up some comic books. But anyway. Can tell you from reading 1/4 of Marvels it's pretty good. The first volume really just immerses you in as a bystander to super heroes. You get that point of view. Starts a little slow as they want to "marvel" you by the slightest hint of super heroes and if you've read a bunch of graphic novels or comics you really kind of have to force yourself into the main characters shoes. The art really helps do that though as its very realistic paintings. So you can really imagine super heroes existing. It starts to get really interesting then towards the end of the first volume when the action picks up. I'd definetly recommend it. Also peaked at the 3rd volume and it begins to get to some truly awesome stuff

That's good. I read reviews on Amazon, but I always like to ask GAFers their opinions. From what I gather, it's similar to Kingdom Come, but of the Marvel Universe (in that it follows your average day guy as the main character- and it has art by Alex Ross).

 

[FoneBone]

Marvels is great -- Kurt Busiek is an excellent, but still underrated (or at least too overlooked) writer. It's not at all like Kingdom Come, though.

 

[FnordChan]

Marvels is great -- Kurt Busiek is an excellent, but still underrated (or at least too overlooked) writer. It's not at all like Kingdom Come, though.

FoneBone beat me to it, though I wouldn't call Busiekt overlooked. Marvels is an astounding look at the early days of the Marvel Universe from the viewpoint of the man on the street. Lovely art, terrific storytelling, and - in my astoundingly humble opinion - a damn sight better than Kingdom Come. Highly recommended.

However, before you go read this, read Watchmen as soon as possible.

FnordChan

 

[FoneBone]

Yeah, I guess it's really only on this forum that I could honestly say he's overlooked. (Almost nobody seems to have read Arrowsmith or the recent Astro City miniseries). Oh, well.

 

[Diomedeskun]

DKSA compacts too much story with too many characters and repulsive art into less space than the original DKR. It also provides a cop-out for Superman, and devotes several pages that could have been better utilised to Superman and Wonderwoman frolicking. Finally, the ending is even worse than the rest of the book.

Daredevil: The Man Without Fear, also by Frank Miller, is very similar to his Batman: Year One. The book has a much more realistic feel than much of the early Daredevil. It is much closer to the Daredevil movie than the original yellow suit origin.

Alias, like everything by Brian Michael Bendis, is wonderful. The sequal series, The Pulse, started a little weak, but had a conversation between SPiderman and Ben Ulrich that is one of the strongest, most emotional moments I have ever read in comics.

The Watchmen is essential reading for anyone who has ever had any sort of interest in superheroes, especially if they have ever been disillusioned with them.

Don't be fooled by the movie. League of Extraordinary Gentlemen is one of the best pair of books I have ever read, even if Alan Moore can't keep a schedule to save his life. It requires much more knowledge of Victorian literature than the film, and it has no annoying American tacked on.

Ruse is a great take on Sherlock Holmes.

Jinx (about a bounty hunter and a con artist looking for a stash of mob money) is Bendis's best book, but Goldfish and Torso are excellent. All are highly intelligent with Bendis's great dialogue. Powers is his take on cops in a superhero world (like Alan Moore's Top 10, but more serious). Fortune and Glory and Brian Michael Bendis Sells Out are very funny books about the author and his take on life. He also wrote Ultimate Spiderman and is writing Daredevil.

I could fill a whole new thread with the manga I read, but they are rather different than American comics, so I won't mention them here.

 

[FnordChan]

Yeah, I guess it's really only on this forum that I could honestly say he's overlooked. (Almost nobody seems to have read Arrowsmith or the recent Astro City miniseries).

Holding out for the trades myself. Also, Busiek on Avengers > Bendis on Avengers.

FnordChan

 

[FoneBone]

Holding out for the trades myself.

The Arrowsmith trade has been out for a month or so, just so you know.

 

[FnordChan]

I could fill a whole new thread with the manga I read, but they are rather different than American comics, so I won't mention them here.

Comics is comics, man. Plug that manga!

Meanwhile, a reminder that anyone who liked Frank Miller's Batman should check out Frank Miller's Daredevil. Daredevil Visionaries Volume 2 introduces Elektra, Born Again breaks Daredevil and rebuilds him, and is absolutely astounding, Elektra Assassin is high weirdness with fantastic Bill Sienkiewicz artwork, and Elektra Lives Again wraps it all up. And there's more on top of that, including the aforementioned Daredevil: The Man Without Fear.

Meanwhile, don't forget Ronin, mid-80s DC work by Miller that shows him developing his modern style, or any of the Sin City volumes. Oh, and after you've read Watchmen, continue your Alan Moore 80s flashback with V for Vendetta.

Finally, a few manga plugs, if only to encourage Diomedeskun to do the same. Planetes is my current favorite, near-future hard SF about astrounauts with a lousy job. Wonderful characters, solid science backing everything up, detailed art - this comic is a wonder to behold. Lone Wolf and Cub is an epic, completely badass tale of the shogun's executioner's fall from grace and long, bloody quest for vengence. Banana Fish combines crisp artwork with gritty violence in a story about early-80s gang violence in New York City; don't let the pretty boys in love with each other keep you from checking this one out. Please Save My Earth is romantic science fiction with reincarnated aliens, psychic powers, and a lovely, mid-80s shoujo style. Phoenix is Osamu "Motherfuckin' God of Comics" Tezuka's masterwork, spanning thousands of years, from different periods of historical Japan to the far future, asking questions about the purpose each of us have on Earth. Nausicaa is beautiful, epic science-fiction by Hayao "Motherfuckin' God of Anime" Miyazaki combining a classic heroine with environmental themes and a political, apocolyptic plot. Maison Ikkoku is a wonderful romantic comedy featuring a poor college student in the early 1980s.

I could go on, but that's more than enough for the time being. All of these are in-print and should be readily available at your local bookstore.

FnordChan

 

[FnordChan]

The Arrowsmith trade has been out for a month or so, just so you know.

Woah, that completely passed me by. I'm on the case; thanks for the heads up!

FnordChan, who has to buy the Giant-Sized Bone Thing first

 

[Asbel]

Ha, I like all the links but you forgot, it's Maison Ikkoku by Rumiko "Motherfuckin' Goddess of Comics" Takahashi.

 

[Escape Goat]

Killing Joke was an absolute waste with that ending. I'm embarassed for the writer.

 

[Diomedeskun]

Very well then. Planetes is also my current favorite among manga that is currently running. It is the single most intelligent depiction of space and the near future I have seen in comics. That reminds me that I need to plug Orbiter by Warren Ellis (not manga, for anyone who can't telll by the name)

Maison Ikkoku is a wonderful romantic comedy with some very strange, yet loveable characters. It is very predictable for the middle of the series, but the end throws in some great twists.

Blade of the Immortal has my favorite art of all Manga. The complex pencil art is gorgeous. It is a samurai series with an immortal who has sworn to slay 1000 evil men. It is still only available in monthly traditional 30-40 page issues.

Lone Wolf and Cub is fantastic, but it can get so brutal that I have to wait some time between books. It has great art (especially the detailed backgrounds), a highly cinematic look, and a mix of wonderful stories about honor and betrayal that occasionally get a little repetetive. It is the only series I have ever read where I like the main character less than many men he kills, but charming Daigoro saves the series when the tone gets too dark or cynical. Frank Miller drew the first dozen or so covers, by the way.

Berserk is incredible, especially after the first two books, but it is very brutal.

The six phone-book sized Akira tomes are far better than the excellent movie. The story is much easier to follow because it is complete. The last few panals are wonderful.

My 3 favorite manga of all time are:

Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind- An epic fantasy/sci-fi that begins as an environmentalist battle, but becomes so much more. It is currently being reprinted unflopped in gorgeus large-format books that make the art much easier to appreciate and sepia-tone ink.

Sanctuary- An amazing, rough, but very idealistic political thriller with some great characters. I am stupefied that the same pen wrote this as Fist of the North Star (Sho Fumimura, aka Buronson).

Adolf -available in Hardcover. Osamu Tezuka's epic story of two boys, one Jewish, one half german half Japanese, who live through World War II. It is far more serious than Tezuka's better known work.

Others to follow.

 

[AniHawk]

DKSA compacts too much story with too many characters and repulsive art into less space than the original DKR. It also provides a cop-out for Superman, and devotes several pages that could have been better utilised to Superman and Wonderwoman frolicking. Finally, the ending is even worse than the rest of the book.

Daredevil: The Man Without Fear, also by Frank Miller, is very similar to his Batman: Year One. The book has a much more realistic feel than much of the early Daredevil. It is much closer to the Daredevil movie than the original yellow suit origin.

Alias, like everything by Brian Michael Bendis, is wonderful. The sequal series, The Pulse, started a little weak, but had a conversation between SPiderman and Ben Ulrich that is one of the strongest, most emotional moments I have ever read in comics.

The Watchmen is essential reading for anyone who has ever had any sort of interest in superheroes, especially if they have ever been disillusioned with them.

Don't be fooled by the movie. League of Extraordinary Gentlemen is one of the best pair of books I have ever read, even if Alan Moore can't keep a schedule to save his life. It requires much more knowledge of Victorian literature than the film, and it has no annoying American tacked on.

Ruse is a great take on Sherlock Holmes.

Jinx (about a bounty hunter and a con artist looking for a stash of mob money) is Bendis's best book, but Goldfish and Torso are excellent. All are highly intelligent with Bendis's great dialogue. Powers is his take on cops in a superhero world (like Alan Moore's Top 10, but more serious). Fortune and Glory and Brian Michael Bendis Sells Out are very funny books about the author and his take on life. He also wrote Ultimate Spiderman and is writing Daredevil.

I could fill a whole new thread with the manga I read, but they are rather different than American comics, so I won't mention them here.

Thanks for the recommendations!

And FoneBone, you reminded me of that series. I should pick up the One Volume Collection since it's 1300 pages for $27.

 

[Diomedeskun]

All of Bone in one volume? Sold!

3x3 Eyes has returned once more (a new book comes out next week). I always look forward to more supernatural adventures of Pai and Yakumo through Japan and China.

Ghost in the Shell is a great book that is the basis for the even better Stand Alone Complex anime series. It has a much stronger police feel than the movies. Ghost in the Shell 2: Man-Machine Interface has nice art and CG, but it is almost all CG and the story is extremely convoluted, even for a Masamune Shirow series. I couldn't stand it. It also has little to do with the original.

Great Teacher Onizuka rules. It started like a silly Stand and Deliver, but now has much deeper characters and some great stories.

Kodocha, or Kodomo no Omacha, is a great manga about middle school kids dealing with serious problems and a great amount of humor.

I have also been reading a great deal of Chinese comics lately:

The Legendary Couple- based on the sequel to the Legend of the Condor Heroes novel, it tells the story of a young couple that is split apart due to a misunderstanding and wander the martial arts world for some time.

Heaven Sword Dragon Sabre -Sequel to The Legendary Couple, unfortunately it is further along and contains some spoilers. The story deals with a mighty young man who leads the Ming against invading Mongols and helps found the empire.

Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon- Based on the novels that led to the movie, but the movie was a loose adaptation of book 4, while this version starts partway into book 2 (i believe) out of 5.

Weapon of the Gods- One of the few Chinese comics released in the US that is not based on a novel, so the pacing seems less rushed and no details seem to be left out. The story is good, and the characters are fun Chinese action sterotypes.

The Four Constable- Yet another novel adaptation. It has what may be the best art of any Chinese comics I have read. The story is about 4 young men trained to secretly defend the empire and mete out justice to the wicked.


Oh, I also need to plug Usagi Yojimbo. The comics deal with both traditional samurai stories and daily life in Japan, only all the people are anthropomorphic animals. It is much better than Miyamoto Usagi's appearances on TMNT cartoons led me to believe.

 

[FnordChan]

Ha, I like all the links but you forgot, it's Maison Ikkoku by Rumiko "Motherfuckin' Goddess of Comics" Takahashi.

No, you're thinking of Moto "Motherfuckin' Goddess of Comics" Hagio. ^_^

Meanwhile, I wholeheartedly second the Adolf recommendation, though I should point out for the wary that, in addition to very nice hardback editions (got 'em myself), there are regular paperback editions also available. Of course, if you're going to buy Tezuka in hardback you really can't go wrong with Vertical's beautiful editions of Buddha.

I can't let Diomedeskun one-up me with the comics recommendations, so I'll be back shortly with my favorite independent American comics.

Meanwhile, we should just put together the official Gaming-Age Guide To Comic Books.

FnordChan

 

[FoneBone]

And FoneBone, you reminded me of that series. I should pick up the One Volume Collection since it's 1300 pages for $27.

Unfortunately, Amazon still has yet to ship it, though I think they will in the next few weeks.

 

[Asbel]

No, you're thinking of Moto "Motherfuckin' Goddess of Comics" Hagio. ^_^

Oh, you're right. This is the first time I've heard of her though. :/