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[Fhtagn]

Wait, cheating now violates informed consent?

If you're in a committed monogamous relationship and you cheat, yes, you are withholding significant information that your partner is assuming doesn't exist when they make decisions about how to have safe sex with you, so yes, it does.

Did he abuse his power? Plenty of relationships or hook-ups have power dynamics, saying it was wrong most likely denies on them agency. There's no reports he actually gave a leg up to people he was sleeping with either, so this is just extrapolation from general industry knowledge.

Dude made two of the biggest movies of all time and you want to talk about agency like that invalidates any concerns about impropriety and the power he holds?

 

[Fhtagn]

Again, this is reductionist.

Just putting it out there, I'm taking the account of a jilted ex with a grain of salt, especially on an account where no real accusation is laid, especially not of the level being discussed in this thread: that Whedon "abused" his position of power. We don't know this.

Automatically defaulting to "abuse of power" removes the agency of people to find others with power attractive, pursue them, and WANT sexual relationships with those people.

The accusation is very clear:

He had an affair during the making of Buffy
She was worried about the way he surrounded himself with gorgeous women
He gas lights her saying it's just cuz he's always had women as friends...
Oops, years later he later confesses that he's cheated more than once.

She specifically says she's got ptsd from this relationship. That isn't just a jilted ex. Believe her or don't, but the accusations are pretty serious.

 

[Subpar Spatula]

If you're in a committed monogamous relationship and you cheat, yes, you are withholding significant information that your partner is assuming doesn't exist when they make decisions about how to have safe sex with you, so yes, it does.

I suppose that's fair if he knew he had a STI.

Dude made two of the biggest movies of all time and you want to talk about agency like that invalidates any concerns about impropriety and the power he holds?

Yes, agency matters. You're assuming at this point the people he slept with had no choice and he lorded his position over to get what he wanted. You're skewing the information available.

 

[Choppasmith]

Joss Whedon on casting Batgirl

We see you, Whedon.

Wow, this sounds so bad now. I remember this quote originally thinking he just wanted a devoted actor. While I'm sure that's still his intent, is just... What a choice of a words.

 

[Fhtagn]

I suppose that's fair if he knew he had a STI.






Yes, agency matters. You're assuming at this point the people he slept with had no choice and he lorded his position over to get what he wanted. You're skewing the information available.

I'm not saying he's a rapist, so I don't know where you're getting that impression. Power relationships are complicated.

I think Dollhouse reads like a mea culpa... I wonder if intentional?

 

[Pixieking]

Dude made two of the biggest movies of all time and you want to talk about agency like that invalidates any concerns about impropriety and the power he holds?

And yet this started when he was running Buffy. Let's not confuse the timeline here, since it's one of the clearest things in the blog post

On the set of ”Buffy," Joss decided to have his first secret affair.

Buffy was a mid-season replacement that caught the network off-guard with how successful it ended up being. Joss didn't start in a position of power, he worked his way into it.

The accusation is very clear:

He had an affair during the making of Buffy
She was worried about the way he surrounded himself with gorgeous women
He gas lights her saying it's just cuz he's always had women as friends...
Oops, years later he later confesses that he's cheated more than once.

Again, timeline is important, and this part we don't know. It could be that when he said

He always had a lot of female friends,

It was to allay his wife's concerns before he had an affair. Or it could be he gaslighted her. We just don't know, since Buffy ran for 7 years.

Yes, agency matters. You're assuming at this point the people he slept with had no choice and he lorded his position over to get what he wanted. You're skewing the information available.

Which is itself sexist, and ignores the willingness of the women involved to be "the other woman". Edit: Removing this because it could be misinterepted.

 

[Subpar Spatula]

I'm not saying he's a rapist, so I don't know where you're getting that impression. Power relationships are complicated.

I think Dollhouse reads like a mea culpa... I wonder if intentional?

Never saw Dollhouse.

You're hinting at this being way more sinister than a man cheating on his wife. That's the problem. Same with people weirded out over Batgirl: I doubt this is a grand scheme of a man who decided to make feminist friendly shows / movies to sleep with people, that's quite the dedication. It's way more likely he's a famous guy who started cheated on his wife. Why he cheated can only be answered by him but I doubt it's because he disrespects women in general.

 

[Fhtagn]

And yet this started when he was running Buffy. Let's not confuse the timeline here, since it's one of the clearest things in the blog post


Buffy was a mid-season replacement that caught the network off-guard with how successful it ended up being. Joss didn't start in a position of power, he worked his way into it.



Again, timeline is important, and this part we don't know. It could be that when he said


It was to allay his wife's concerns before he had an affair. Or it could be he gaslighted her. We just don't know.



Which is itself sexist, and ignores the willingness of the women involved to be "the other woman".

Oh please don't escalate this into saying I'm being sexist for criticizing Joss for his actions. That's silly. I don't have any criticisms for the people he was cheating with, and as I said, power is complicated. My criticism is for Joss, for whom this was apparently a pattern.

Y'all know the rumors about him beyond this aren't super flattering right? This isn't entirely in a vacuum.

Edit: not even going to engage with the edit that made what I quoted an even bigger can of worms.

 

[royalan]

The accusation is very clear:

He had an affair during the making of Buffy
She was worried about the way he surrounded himself with gorgeous women
He gas lights her saying it's just cuz he's always had women as friends...
Oops, years later he later confesses that he's cheated more than once.

She specifically says she's got ptsd from this relationship. That isn't just a jilted ex. Believe her or don't, but the accusations are pretty serious.

Oh, I don't disbelieve the trauma she's going through because of her marriage to Whedon. Hell, I'm still hurt over my last relationship that ended from cheating, and we weren't together NEARLY as long as they were.

But that just makes Joss Whedon a shithead of person, which I've personally believed for years now. There's this "general moral goodness" that's being subscribed to being a feminist, and it's just not true. It's really naive, actually.

You can be a feminist, and be a flawed person. You can be a feminist and be a BAD person.

 

[Pixieking]

Oh please don't escalate this into saying I'm being sexist for criticizing Joss for his actions.

Not my intent, honestly. It's more, as you state below, this isn't in a vacuum - there's been no word that he went against a woman's consent, so, bearing in mind his relative position of power, the women he was involved in had agency.

That's silly. I don't have any criticisms for the people he was cheating with, and as I said, power is complicated. My criticism is for Joss, for whom this was apparently a pattern.

Yeah, the fact that it's a pattern is what is most concerning. At some stage he must've known he was just going to do this over and over again, so why the hell not just come clean, divorce, and then he can play the field however much he wants. Assuming this is true, the best you can say is that he is a serial adulterer.

Y'all know the rumors about him beyond this aren't super flattering right? This isn't entirely in a vacuum.

Yeah, but those are rumours. Confirmation bias (and our awareness of it) means we shouldn't take into account unfounded rumour.

Edit: not even going to engage with the edit that made what I quoted an even bigger can of worms.

I meant that only as an observation which came from a woman, nothing more. Peace yo.

 

[Fhtagn]

Oh, I don't disbelieve the trauma she's going through because of her marriage to Whedon. Hell, I'm still hurt over my last relationship that ended from cheating, and we weren't together NEARLY as long as they were.

But that just makes Joss Whedon a shithead of person, which I've personally believed for years now. There's this "general moral goodness" that's being subscribed to being a feminist, and it's just not true. It's really naive, actually.

You can be a feminist, and be a flawed person. You can be a feminist and be a BAD person.

So, yeah, as I said earlier in this thread, he can be politically, theoretically, philosophically feminist, but his actions were anything but.

I've had friends who claim to hold one position but their other words and actions made me realize they were fooling themselves... and ultimately I realized it didn't matter what they thought they believed when it was clear they not only didn't follow through in their actions, they didn't even want to hear the slightest criticism. Does saying "I'm ____" mean one is ____?

 

[Subpar Spatula]

Which is itself sexist, and ignores the willingness of the women involved to be "the other woman". Which, as my wife pointed out a couple of hours ago, makes them not very feminist, since they had no problem disrespecting Joss's wife.

How does being the the one who helps cheat make you less feminist? That just makes you an asshole.

 

[Pixieking]

So, yeah, as I said earlier in this thread, he can be politically, theoretically, philosophically feminist, but his actions were anything but.

I've had friends who claim to hold one position but their other words and actions made me realize they were fooling themselves... and ultimately I realized it didn't matter what they thought they believed when it was clear they not only didn't follow through in their actions, they didn't even want to hear the slightest criticism. Does saying "I'm ____" mean one is ____?

In agreement of this, here, have some of Joss's words:

Action is the best way to say anything. A guy who goes around saying "I'm a feminist" usually has an agenda that is not feminist. A guy who behaves like one, who actually becomes involved in the movement, generally speaking, you can trust that. And it doesn't just apply to the action that is activist. It applies to the way they treat the women they work with and they live with and they see on the street.

How does being the the one who helps cheat make you less feminist? That just makes you an asshole.

She's working on the basis that every one of the women he slept with must've known he was married, and were still willing to disrespect the wife and their own gender. I can get her point, but also, I'm not sure I agree with it. Much as I can get the point that this makes Joss a bad feminist, but I'm not sure I agree with it either. Which is why I've mostly stayed out of that part of the discussion.

 

[IISANDERII]

fair enough.

However, I feel like criticism like this of Joss Whedon's work is primarily due to the reputation he's gotten that leads people to say that he's a good writer of female characters.

Which is an observation from the writing community and fans, not a self-paraded quality of his own.

And when "feminism" became a hot topic, he voiced support. Which seems like a relatively easy and well-meaning stance to take. Like, why wouldn't you.


But unless he has deliberately paraded himself as some really good female character writer (no, saying you're a feminist does not qualify), it seems to me that people viewing him through that particular lens is a bit unfair.

But now that people have finally gotten the ammo to, SURPRISE, unveil him as "not really a feminist", and instead an ENEMY of feminism (!!!!!plot twist!!!!!), they're attacking him from an angle that doesn't....really make sense to me.


It's all a bit backwards. It's like the majority of the pleasure of attacking him isn't you guys punishing him for cheating on his wife.....it's for the chance to label him as "not feminist". Or even better, an example of "anti-feminist"

which, in all honesty, seems like an exceedingly counterproductive thing to do, considering how he got his reputation for what he does in the first place.

....unless you are of the position that he always wrote women in a terrible light. But the people making arguments for that (at least, within this very thread) seem a bit challenged for heavy evidence. IMO. Lots of stretching and personal peeves with situations, not necessarily obvious examples of bad writing. Something that's apparently usually very easy to do with female characters in situations like these....which just brings my confusion full circle.

I just almost always found him weak overall, regardless of females, males, themes, plots, pacing or dialogue. He seemed to focus on trying to make strong female roles because he was an opportunist so he became successful. The doublethink left him with only half his capability to make good.

 

[Fhtagn]

Never saw Dollhouse.

Dollhouse is a really interesting show from a "did he mean for this subtext to exist?" angle, cuz it's about being able to force (hot) people to do whatever you want them to, for money, by brainwashing them repeatedly, and the self-insert author-geek-mastermind character is despicable and ends up hating themselves by the end.

Read as meta-self-commentary it is super grim. I wonder if it's intended or not.

 

[LordKasual]

Dude made two of the biggest movies of all time and you want to talk about agency like that invalidates any concerns about impropriety and the power he holds?

what the...

what the hell does it matter how much "power" he had if all of the sex he had was completely consensual? I could see if we are talking about some kind of sexual blackmail or employment situation, that isn't what this is. You think having alot of money forces women to want to fuck you against their will?

Oh who will save the poor, brainwashed young women from their own vaginas, they clearly have no chance against the unwavering power of the rich guy "fuck me" aura

 

[Pagusas]

You always hear about how hard it is for women to break into Hollywood, that many actresses basically have to peostitute themselves to producers/casting directors to even get a chance. Think Josh may have been one of those people really makes me re-evaluate my mental image of these guys. They aren't mustang twirling, slicked back hair, snake oil dealers, they are just manipulative assholes who pretend to be virtuous.

 

[Fhtagn]

what the...

what the hell does it matter how much "power" he had if all of the sex he had was completely consensual? I could see if we are talking about some kind of sexual blackmail or employment situation, that isn't what this is. You think having alot of money forces women to want to fuck you against their will?

Oh who will save the poor, brainwashed young women from their own vaginas, they clearly have no chance against the unwavering power of the rich guy "fuck me" aura

oh great, another person with no ability to think with nuance jumping all the way to the other extreme.

Look, let's just say I hope you're right.

 

[border]

Can the women who slept with Whedon be considered feminists? I think we can assume that they all knew he was married. He probably wore a wedding ring, and had his wife and kids (ugggh) visit the set from time to time.

 

[riotous]

oh great, another person with no ability to think with nuance jumping all the way to the other extreme.

Look, let's just say I hope you're right.

You just implied that a show about literal sex slaves is meta-commentary on Joss Whedon, and that the mastermind is a "Self insert" character, but other people are extreme?

 

[Fhtagn]

You just implied that a show about literal sex slaves is meta-commentary on Joss Whedon, and that the mastermind is a "Self insert" character, but other people are extreme?

It reads pretty clear as the way someone grappling with much lesser transgressions might hyperbolically work through their own issues; when it aired I thought it was him being critical of his own flawed powerful women tropes, the kind of idea a depressed person might do as taking inspiration from self-criticism by overplaying it to the extreme.

I certainly don't think dollhouse is a confession of being a serial rapist, that'd be a genuinely shocking revelation.

 

[Fuchsdh]

A random comment by a person in an AVClub Disqus thread sums up what I think about this vis-a-vis feminism:

A man can be a feminist and treat his wife like shit just as easily as a person can be a racist and still have a black friend. Overarching ideologies don't always apply to one-on-one relationships (and often outright contradict them), and a fifteen year marriage is going to contain aspects beyond "he claimed to be a feminist and she was a woman" because they are fully-formed people and not two concepts bumping up against each other.

When my boyfriend cheated on me, it wasn't out of a lack of respect for all men everywhere, it was out of a lack of respect for me, and even that had a lot of layers to it that we needed to work out.

If the allegations are true, it seems like more than enough to call Whedon a pretty garbage human being. And it puts him into the category of people you have to consider how you consume their work, and whether you're okay with them profiting. I'm also not sure I would have ever called his work "feminist" in that it never had that kind of ideological edge and most of his female characters fall into a pretty narrow band. But I don't think this stuff really has any bearing on feminism overall. It's a no true Scotsman fallacy all the way down.

When it comes to interpersonal relationships, it's rare that political or social ideologies mesh with the pragmatism of life.

 

[Rentahamster]

Can the women who slept with Whedon be considered feminists? I think we can assume that they all knew he was married. He probably wore a wedding ring, and had his wife and kids (ugggh) visit the set from time to time.

You'll find a variety of opinions about that matter.

There was actually a book written about the topic from a third wave feminist who was involved in an affair with a married man.

https://books.google.com/books?id=g...ce=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://www.alternet.org/story/143550/is_sleeping_with_a_married_man_sexist

 

[Vermillion]

You can identify as a feminist and also act in ways or uphold certain beliefs that some would consider anti-feminist. The dictionary definition of feminism makes it sound pretty binary and simple, but once you get into feminist scholarship and activism, it's really not. That's how you get sex-negative and sex-positivie feminists who argue that the other side isn't real feminism or at the least that it's a more damaging kind.

And in any case, someone who bases a large part of their career on their feminism is going to be under more scrutiny than a random poster on a forum. Whedon can call himself a feminist all he wants. People can decide if his brand of feminism is something they find genuine, agree with, or want to support.

This is fair and accurate.

I suppose the thing I'm getting at is - most people aren't going to get into that sort of activism. Can the layperson understand what feminism is simply, and will they identify as one? When you get into true & not true feminism, I personally think that's less likely.

 

[Vampfox]

I'm gonna take this with a grain of salt.

Joss is still my god.

He give us Buffy, and I'm glad he's directing Batgirl. Joss is the boss when it comes to writing strong female characters.

 

[LotusHD]

I'm gonna take this with a grain of salt.

Joss is still my god.

He give us Buffy, and I'm glad he's directing Batgirl. Joss is the boss when it comes to writing strong female characters.

I mean, at the very least, you'd think this thread would remind people to be wary of idolizing people, much less calling them your "god"...

 

[Chmpocalypse]

Never saw Dollhouse.

You're hinting at this being way more sinister than a man cheating on his wife. That's the problem. Same with people weirded out over Batgirl: I doubt this is a grand scheme of a man who decided to make feminist friendly shows / movies to sleep with people, that's quite the dedication. It's way more likely he's a famous guy who started cheated on his wife. Why he cheated can only be answered by him but I doubt it's because he disrespects women in general.

Cheating is disrespectful to women, specifically the one he married with the understanding that they were monogamous.

I swear, the length some people here will go to excuse cheating is ridiculous.

 

[TheRazielim]

Cheating is disrespectful to women, specifically the one he married with the understanding that they were monogamous.

I swear, the length some people here will go to excuse cheating is ridiculous.

Cheating is disrespectful to men as well.

In any case, if he preached monogamy privately or publicly, then that's hypocritical indeed. But if he had progressive views on relationships, why not?

Only scandalous part of this is if she boned actresses and other people whom he had essentially a employer-employee relationship with, although without knowing details, it's difficult to how much power he really had.

 

[War Peaceman]

Cheating is disrespectful to women, specifically the one he married with the understanding that they were monogamous.

I swear, the length some people here will go to excuse cheating is ridiculous.

Cheating is disrespectful to people, but it isn't disrespectful to women as a collective. If he was gay and cheated on his husband it wouldn't be anti-men.

That isn't to say cheating isn't terrible and it doesn't mean that he is a feminist, just that he is lacking in personal ethics.

 

[Rentahamster]

But if he had progressive views on relationships, why not?

Having "progressive" views on relationships doesn't mean that he has a free pass to cheat on his wife. Especially if she didn't consent to it.

They weren't in a mutually agreed upon open relationship.

 

[shawnbuddy]

This thread is disappointing because too many people are using a definition of feminism I thought only existed in the fevered minds of GamerGaters. That is "a person that pretends they are perfect because they are feminist, and automatically is not a feminist if I can find any flaws."

 

[Kumquat]

For reals though. Ghandi is one of the greatest peaceful figures of our time and he was known as a womanizer to the nth degree.

Also not sure how you get PTSD because someone cheats on you. Like what?

 

[ShyMel]

For reals though. Ghandi is one of the greatest peaceful figures of our time and he was known as a womanizer to the nth degree.

Also not sure how you get PTSD because someone cheats on you. Like what?

I would imagine that having your spouse cheat on you with multiple women over more than a decade while people think he's such a great guy would cause mental issues. Just going by the symptoms on this list, I see many that could arise.

 

[Earthpainting]

This thread is disappointing because too many people are using a definition of feminism I thought only existed in the fevered minds of GamerGaters. That is "a person that pretends they are perfect because they are feminist, and automatically is not a feminist if I can find any flaws."

I don't think it's fair to dismiss the criticism as a purity test. The main points that cast doubt on him being a proper feminist is that he was gaslighting his wife under the guise of feminism, and his alleged affairs follow the pattern of a very typical patriarchal power dynamic in the industry. The quotes of disease and conquest don't exactly help his case either. He can contribute to the feminist cause, as he has done in the past, and he can still consider himself a feminist, but the story certainly would mark him as an unreliable ally. Iammeiam kind of summarised its repercussions well for me.

Where it kind of falls apart is when he claims he's not doing a thing specifically because he's a feminist, and then he is, in fact, doing that thing. He's not sleeping with all these attractive women he has power over, he's just a feminist! Except, oops, he is, and there's the description of the societal push "conquer and acquire" women sexually in explaining what was really going on, and it reads a lot less feminist.

I don't think he proactively wants to take rights away from women, but Whedon as Feminist Icon pops up a lot whenever something in his work seems unfortunate and problematic. And maybe what his ex wrote is a lie, or maybe there's some quotes she left out, but the entire power imbalance in the industry, the casting couch concept, and his being super aware that the women he suddenly had access to were available because of his position of power seems like something that should have given him pause. But instead of being a deterrent, he cites the power imbalance and the availability of women because of it as a primary motivating factor.

So for me the whole thing is largely in the shift in how Whedon's work is discussed; no more "Joss is a feminist!" passes. If his handling of a female character seems dated or a little ridiculous, he no longer gets spotted a few points because Avowed Feminist. It's not about cutting off access to his work--taken in context Buffy remains important for its time, although we've progressed since then--so much as just making it speak for itself.

 

[captainnapalm]

This is kind of awful. Whedon's wife doesn't seem very concerned about trashing him in front of his kids. My parents had a shitty divorce but both somehow had the class to not do that. It's pretty much divorce 101.

I won't comment on the feminism aspect, as I don't think men should ever call themselves feminists. And Whedon has now learned multiple times how it's not a good idea to try and ingratiate yourself with that crowd. They will turn on you in an instant. Cheating has nothing to do with feminism anyway, as it's something everyone does.

 

[dan2026]

Christ, Whedon is getting a lot of defence here.
At the very least it sounds like he was an unfaithful scumbag.