The patched "precision controls" took away the weighty feeling. The lag was the weight (along with other things that supported the feeling of weight/momentum).
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Killzone Shadow Fall (PS4) announced, launch title [1080p/30fps]
- Thread starter shinobi602
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The patched "precision controls" took away the weighty feeling. The lag was the weight (along with other things that supported the feeling of weight/momentum).
weight is how weapon recoil and animations work not damn lag. When you shoot standard ISA rifle animation already starts before first shoot when character pull to himself weapon a bit. That is what makes Killzone weight not lag, deadzones or acceleration script.
Resistance had almost the same control set with near exact problems and their guns didn't feel heavy at all because of that.
Resistance didn't have this problem because it was 2006 when it came out. It was still PS2 shooter era where acceleration was something plain terrible in almost all shooter games often scaled lineary.
Killzone2 problem was that it was game with 2000-2006 FPS controls in world which already had perfect COD4 lagless, no deadzone and acceleration fixed controls.
BadAss2961
Member
Ever play Mirror's Edge? Notice how the character moves slower when she's carrying a gun? And even slower with a heavier gun? Yeah... weight.
Call of Duty pretty much has twitch controls. There's no weight whatsoever, which is probably the way you prefer your shooters.
I like the way CoD controls, but I also loved the way Killzone 2 controlled pre-patch once I felt it out.
And what this have to do with LAG, ACCELERATION and DEADZONE ?
Resistance has almost same control set and no gun there is heavy or has a weight like in Killzone.
Killzone "weight" came from different things:
- animation as mentioned above
- weapon lag (not control lag) where gun need to have a while to get in perfect position after twitch.
COD feel weightless because there is no weapon lag. Killzone 2 had a lot weapon lag ergo it felt like weapon was heavy.
Having problems with aiming is not "weight"
mickcenary
Member
So bloody what?
I don't care if the game has light years of lag intentionally coded in; it feels incredible and unique.
If making the controls more "precise" detracts from this "lag", then I - like so many others - don't want it.
BadAss2961
Member
CoD doesn't feel weightless, it is weightless. It has the feel of controlling a camera much more so than a person.
Fix acceleration, lag and deadzones (which they already fixed a lot with KZ3) and leave weapon lag and animations from Killzone2 (something which they changed in KZ3 for worse)
Many people don't get that totally fixed position of gun like Quake, CS or CoD4 kills weapon weight because it is not realistic. Your gun need to fallow a bit croshair and even more so when gun is bigger like in real life you can point with your eyes on something and then your gun fallow that. Killzone 2 had it already and in Killzone 3 it was reduced a lot.
Yes that is how fixed gun to camera works. It is like shooting from camera instead of gun.
Wax Free Vanilla
Member
The clue is in the shadow, it's 100% Stahl:
People think Visari was in the escape pod? lol
mickcenary
Member
Agreed!
And it is shite.
Shooters need to experiment more and start breaking genre conventions.
Rice-Eater
Member
I was interested in KZ2, but after spending so much time playing COD4 already the "weighty" KZ2 controls sent me running back to COD4 in a heartbeat. Weighty, lag, or whatever, I just hope that Shadow Fall controls don't make me feel like I'm fighting with the controls just to try and aim like I did with the KZ2 demo that I tried a long time ago which I see has been patches a long time ago already.
Liabe Brave
Member
It's unfortunate when a game (or a movie, or a book, or an album) takes an approach you can't get behind. But in art, whenever the choice comes up between pursuing an idea and pursuing an audience, I'd rather see the attempt at an idea.
I'm sorry that you didn't like KZ2, because it means there's less stuff out there for you to enjoy. But I did enjoy the game, and the controls contributed to that, not detracted from it; after the patch I turned the "high precision" mode back off because I didn't like it.
I truly believe it's best to allow multiple styles to coexist. It's more fun for everyone.
Personally i fucking can't comprehend why most of shooters didn't go for non fixed gun gun controls.
I played one mod for Half Life 2 and having your gun work different to your view is something just amazing.
I try to look for this mod and find some youtube vid. That mod gunplay was far above almost any shooter.
I played one mod for Half Life 2 and having your gun work different to your view is something just amazing.
I try to look for this mod and find some youtube vid. That mod gunplay was far above almost any shooter.
The clue is in the shadow, it's 100% Stahl:
People think Visari was in the escape pod? lol
It was definitely not Stahl. From the shadow one can clearly see the person in the capsule has peaks on the outer tips of their shoulders. Stahl does not
Dude, if you don't like how Killzone controls, go play your CoD then. Why a lot of you people think that every shooter needs to be a copy of CoD in a new paint is beyond me. This is the very reason why GG shouldn't listen to ANYBODY but themselves.
mickcenary
Member
Ha. I think he's actually on our side. I didn't think so at first either.
Dude i want this "weight" in Killzone. I don't want aiming from 01' PS2 shooter.
Here is that video. It is Half Life 2 mod called Underhell which is amazing and better than 98% shooters out there. Mind you i post it because i want to show how non fixed gun position can enrich gameplay insted of fixed position.
There is no crosshair because gun don't point into centre of camera. It looks like it is hard to shoot someone but i can assure you it us actually easier to shoot someone.
VIDEO
Killzone 3 move players know what i am talking about. It is the same principle
Always-honest
Banned
That was what i thought of straight away. The customisation options for the Move controller were AWESOME.
If you gave it a couple of days it became intuitive so fast. Much better than dual analog imo.
I don't know what you mean with the "PS2 shooter aiming", but the things you want be gone/fixed are the things that made KZ2's controls unique. Since GG effed up the controls in KZ3, I can only hope for the best in SF.
Regarding that mod, I don't think that it would be acceptable to the majority again. However, if they made something like it, I wouldn't complain.
What i find most amazing about non fixed gun position is how it is more accurate than fixed position. I can play that mod without crosshair and still pull of long shots without problems.
I think it is probably connected how our eyes need to process less image and we can focus more on targeting.
When i target someone only few pixels (enemy) are moving. With fixed gun whole screen is moving. I can better predict his movement.
I don't know what you mean with the "PS2 shooter aiming", but the things you want be gone/fixed are the things that made KZ2's controls unique. Since GG effed up the controls in KZ3, I can only hope for the best in SF.
Regarding that mod, I don't think that it would be acceptable to the majority again. However, if they made something like it, I wouldn't complain.
Almost all console FPS shooters before COD4 had terrible controls, big deadzones and effing lag everywhere. Most of the time because of deadzone you couldn't finetune your shoots.
When i move half a millimeter in post COD4 controls era i expect on screen camera to respond with almost unnoticeable move. When i do that in vanilla killzone there is no move at all. When finally controller respond after breaking almost 2 or 3 millimeters acceleration kicks in which works like a bad bitch often giving you too far or too short move because it accelerate weirdly.
And if that isn't that much problem there is control lag. A 110+ms control lag to be precise. 110ms controll lag is 0,1 second of doing nothing when you push a button or move analog stick. It may sound as little but in FPS where you target and kill someone in half a second it is very very very big problem.
I love Killzone 2 weight and i hated as you guys KZ3 inferiority but we should put a big line between responsiveness of controls and weight of guns.
Killzone 2 had weight because weapons were fallowing on screen cursor which was in KZ3 severely reduced making it more fixed. So when recoil happens in KZ2 you feel it as whole weapon moves and then at the end of it your camera position.
Seventy_X_Seven
Member
And that's one thing I really liked about Killzone 2 gun play. You couldn't quick-scope and twitch aim at everyone you see. It made people who used scopes have to take their time and slow down and encouraged the use of hip fire and running around moving yourself into position. It was different.
Phoenician_Viking
Banned
Yes. Killzone 2 was great to play both SP and MP. I did not even buy KZ3 because they codified the controls.
Seventy_X_Seven
Member
1. The ISA didn't indiscriminately kill anyone, just the soldiers. And what's so wrong about that? If they didn't then the Helghasts would get stronger and kill them and their families. Also note that the ISA you play as (Vektan ISA) are not the same ISA that took Vekta from the Helghan Administration (Earth ISA).
2. It doesn't matter if the ISA or UCA know that Visari really nuked his city, they were never trying to deceive them. They were trying to deceive their own people so they wouldn't turn their back on Visari and could use it as more fuel for their anger.
3. Visari had already evacuated all civilians from Pyrrhus before the ISA invasion began.
Liamario
Banned
Hip fire being more accurate is completely counter-intuitive. It renders ADS pointless, except when sniping.
As I've said before, this conversation wouldn't be happening if the controls weren't so alienating. I'm all for a bit of weight, but not at the sacrifice of accuracy or precision.
As I've said before, this conversation wouldn't be happening if the controls weren't so alienating. I'm all for a bit of weight, but not at the sacrifice of accuracy or precision.
Seventy_X_Seven
Member
Hip fire as the better option up close and at mid range is only because you can use body movement better to fine tune your aim. Hip fire alone isn't more accurate, it just is accurate. And that's how it should be. I'm sick of all these shooters where I have to ADS to shoot someone 10 yards away from me. And it's not like Killzone's sights are pointless, they still have a purpose at longer ranges.
This was what made Killzone so good and what makes other shooters simply bad and unrealistic.
People in KZ2 used scope mostly for longer shots and hip fire for close to medium range. Because of recoil you couldn't spray bullets at medium distance in one place simply moving stick down at certain degree like you can in COD which imo sucks.
Wax Free Vanilla
Member
his coat has a top layer on the shoulders, when he moves his arms to a certain position it creates peaks:
it's definitely stahl, the slim build and hair rules out the big man:
I was just remembering the fun I had with KZ2's multi-player. Then I felt inspired, so I wrote an ode, a love-letter if you will, to one of the greatest multi-player games of all time.
So here goes:
I am the medic. I brave gunfire and grenades in the middle of a battlefield to save my comrade. I go where few dare to tread for the sake of one mans survival. I revive him. A friendly bullet says hello. I welcome oblivions sweet embrace knowing the VIP is alive and has escaped. The mission is won.
I am the medic.
I am the engineer. My ingenious knowledge of mechanics will prevail today. I have set up my beautiful turrets in spots that will decimate any group of enemies foolish enough to attempt to take this communications hub. My turrets start firing, my shotgun assists. One turret is damaged, I quickly repair it. My mechanical skill is unequaled; none shall deter me from my objective today.
I am the engineer.
I am the tactician. I am the leader of my squad. I have spent hours preparing for this battle. My previous time spent in battle means nothing if I do not succeed today. My strategy is in place, my men in position. I see their faces and become sad inside, knowing some of my best friends wont return from this, but I must win at any cost. I lay down a smoke grenade, signaling a drop-off point for reinforcements. My hands tremble with adrenaline. My men move, laying down fire and drawing attention away. My best saboteur plants the C4. It goes off. Their fuel depot is destroyed. My nation is victorious.
I am the tactician.
I am the saboteur. My special knowledge of infiltration has led me here: behind enemy lines. I sneak through their ranks, going unnoticed. My plan is going swimmingly. I casually walk next to the soldier guarding the back of my targets detail. My knife slips quietly between his vertebrae. Nobody notices; my disguise shifts to that of the poor fool. I ready a grenade, simple enough to take out the rest my targets security. I throw it, it goes off. Delicious, confusing execution. I sneak up to the target, ask if hes alright. He replies that he is, but I know better. I put two in his chest, one in his head. Then I double tap for confirmation. I slip out before the rest of the company knows what happened.
I am the saboteur.
I am the rifleman. Sure I may be the grunt, the expendable guy. But my numbers are great, and my training is superb. My knowledge of weaponry is unrivaled. But I am best with my trusty LMG. I lay down suppressing fire, keeping the enemy at bay, my fellow comrades take the opportunity to sneak around and secure the objective point for communications. I may not be as skilled, but I take pride in knowing that without soldiers like me, this war cannot be won.
I am the rifleman.
I am the assault class. My command calls me a loose cannon. That I am reckless. Ill take that as a compliment. My love for explosions and mass carnage borders on the insane. And I love it. Aesthetic plumes of smoke, grenades raining like champagne falling from heaven. My god, nothing is more perfect than that. My rockets are my babies; I love every one of them. My grenade launcher, I call her Debbie. I named her after that bitch of an ex I had, but whew, was she dynamite in the sack. What Im trying to say here is this: you want explosions and mass devastation, Im your guy.
I am the assault class.
I am the scout. I lie in my perch for that one special moment. All my training has led me here. I see my HVT. Hello, buddy. His security has cleared this section of the complex. I guess they didnt see little ol me. But who can blame them? My cloak is meant for this moment. He pulls out a cigarette, I let him smoke it. One last unknown vice. I hold my breath, centering my reticule in his temple. I am ready for this moment. This one moment, with this one man, one rifle, one bullet. One nation will be victorious, one nation will be lost. All my life I have waited, just for this moment. My best moment, his last. I squeeze the trigger. Redness.
I am the scout.
So here goes:
I am the medic. I brave gunfire and grenades in the middle of a battlefield to save my comrade. I go where few dare to tread for the sake of one mans survival. I revive him. A friendly bullet says hello. I welcome oblivions sweet embrace knowing the VIP is alive and has escaped. The mission is won.
I am the medic.
I am the engineer. My ingenious knowledge of mechanics will prevail today. I have set up my beautiful turrets in spots that will decimate any group of enemies foolish enough to attempt to take this communications hub. My turrets start firing, my shotgun assists. One turret is damaged, I quickly repair it. My mechanical skill is unequaled; none shall deter me from my objective today.
I am the engineer.
I am the tactician. I am the leader of my squad. I have spent hours preparing for this battle. My previous time spent in battle means nothing if I do not succeed today. My strategy is in place, my men in position. I see their faces and become sad inside, knowing some of my best friends wont return from this, but I must win at any cost. I lay down a smoke grenade, signaling a drop-off point for reinforcements. My hands tremble with adrenaline. My men move, laying down fire and drawing attention away. My best saboteur plants the C4. It goes off. Their fuel depot is destroyed. My nation is victorious.
I am the tactician.
I am the saboteur. My special knowledge of infiltration has led me here: behind enemy lines. I sneak through their ranks, going unnoticed. My plan is going swimmingly. I casually walk next to the soldier guarding the back of my targets detail. My knife slips quietly between his vertebrae. Nobody notices; my disguise shifts to that of the poor fool. I ready a grenade, simple enough to take out the rest my targets security. I throw it, it goes off. Delicious, confusing execution. I sneak up to the target, ask if hes alright. He replies that he is, but I know better. I put two in his chest, one in his head. Then I double tap for confirmation. I slip out before the rest of the company knows what happened.
I am the saboteur.
I am the rifleman. Sure I may be the grunt, the expendable guy. But my numbers are great, and my training is superb. My knowledge of weaponry is unrivaled. But I am best with my trusty LMG. I lay down suppressing fire, keeping the enemy at bay, my fellow comrades take the opportunity to sneak around and secure the objective point for communications. I may not be as skilled, but I take pride in knowing that without soldiers like me, this war cannot be won.
I am the rifleman.
I am the assault class. My command calls me a loose cannon. That I am reckless. Ill take that as a compliment. My love for explosions and mass carnage borders on the insane. And I love it. Aesthetic plumes of smoke, grenades raining like champagne falling from heaven. My god, nothing is more perfect than that. My rockets are my babies; I love every one of them. My grenade launcher, I call her Debbie. I named her after that bitch of an ex I had, but whew, was she dynamite in the sack. What Im trying to say here is this: you want explosions and mass devastation, Im your guy.
I am the assault class.
I am the scout. I lie in my perch for that one special moment. All my training has led me here. I see my HVT. Hello, buddy. His security has cleared this section of the complex. I guess they didnt see little ol me. But who can blame them? My cloak is meant for this moment. He pulls out a cigarette, I let him smoke it. One last unknown vice. I hold my breath, centering my reticule in his temple. I am ready for this moment. This one moment, with this one man, one rifle, one bullet. One nation will be victorious, one nation will be lost. All my life I have waited, just for this moment. My best moment, his last. I squeeze the trigger. Redness.
I am the scout.
At this point they really could say it was anyone's shadow.
They could even make it out to be Radec. (which is a good thing)
Betrayer of hope
Banned
PairOfFilthySocks
Member
The problem with the aiming in KZ2 for me was not that it was weighty as all hell. It felt unique. The problem was that the game then shoved you into COD-esque battles where you're fighting dudes in tight, enclosed areas and generally called upon to have twitch-trigger reflexes. The sluggish controls weren't suited to that game at all.
Seventy_X_Seven
Member
ADS less, hip fire more. I felt it was well suited, but that's just my opinion.
velociraptor
Junior Member
Hip-firing only works at close to medium ranges. You need to use the sights for long ranges. And I like it. Not every shooter has to feature mandatory ADS to kill.
fuzzyreactor
Banned
This, there was a strategy to every encounter
A lot of the time, if an opponent was running you'd be wiser to hold your fire and either flank him or surprise him. This was a welcomed change to the mass of shooters where the best strategy is always shoot first, think later. Hip fire was also perfect in kz2, there is no reason why i need ADS in close distance. KZ2 pretty much perfected gunplay IMO, nothing else comes close.
H_Prestige
Banned
I don't know what you mean with the "PS2 shooter aiming", but the things you want be gone/fixed are the things that made KZ2's controls unique. Since GG effed up the controls in KZ3, I can only hope for the best in SF.
Regarding that mod, I don't think that it would be acceptable to the majority again. However, if they made something like it, I wouldn't complain.
Input lag isn't what made KZ2 feel "heavy". It was the recoil, slow weapon/character speed, long reload animations, high player health, and gun sway. All of those were significantly toned down in KZ3.
That was beautiful. Except assault class. Fk assault class.
fuzzyreactor
Banned
The assault class never bothered me. All classes were reasonably balanced in my opinion.
Although, I was certainly overpowered in disguise. Then I unlocked C4 and advanced my dominance over everyone in every single match. Then I lost interest because I didn't dive deep enough into the competitive scene.
Hopefully the clan and valor system makes it into Shadow Fall because once I ascend into the elite bracket I usually lose interest if I'm not constantly challenged by other elite players.
Sony is smartly including headsets with each box so that should encourage better tactics and teamwork in random matches in addition to creating a stronger competitive platform. The best thing GG could do is to create a ranking system like Halo's.
Although, I was certainly overpowered in disguise. Then I unlocked C4 and advanced my dominance over everyone in every single match. Then I lost interest because I didn't dive deep enough into the competitive scene.
Hopefully the clan and valor system makes it into Shadow Fall because once I ascend into the elite bracket I usually lose interest if I'm not constantly challenged by other elite players.
Sony is smartly including headsets with each box so that should encourage better tactics and teamwork in random matches in addition to creating a stronger competitive platform. The best thing GG could do is to create a ranking system like Halo's.
Allonym
There should be more tampons in gaming
I didn't say the ISA indiscriminately killed anyone I said they didn't hence why theu didn't resort to nuclear usage and I said Pyrrhus had been evacuated but I don't recall a time table being given. The ISA are here quote is me referencing the point that they had intended for him to escape. I understand what you are saying as Visari using the nuke to position and paint himself in a sympathetic light but the Helghast already hated the ISA so the hate simply wouldn't disappear. I feel that you're debating minor points that I didn't even assert but also missing the implications within the messages in his speech and what that may mean for future games.
Is a double really so farfetched or that Visari is in cryosleep? I mean he has faked attempts on his life before so why would that change now and not sacrifice someone else to save himself? This man has a vision and he intends to see it through. Strahl is not a person who can unite the people no matter how broken they are, evident in the infighting amongst the Helghast. Visari is that man and no antagonist except possibly his daughter could fill his void, also I'm curious why didn't you address that point and completely danced around it?
Syphon Filter
Member
I like that they are not numbered anymore[game title],i think more developers should so that after they reach 3 or 4 games. Makes it seem more fresh.
Lagspike_exe
Member
How come the beta had flawless controls then? The issue was the deadzone, not input lag.
Syphon Filter
Member
there was no flaw,i liked how it felt.
Lagspike_exe
Member
The issue was the deadzone, not input lag. It was fixed after launch.
Coulomb_Barrier
Member
KZ: SF director Steven ter Heide tweeted this a couple of hours ago, in response to whether the campaign was finished:
'@Sentry_NC has been for a couple of months. Had couple playtests already. Getting better every time'
https://twitter.com/StevenTerHeide1/status/315402649216352256
This is quite suprising and interesting for two reasons. First, this means the footage that was shown at the Meeting on the 20th was likely using old dev-kits, possibly with 2 or 4GB GDDR5.
Secondly, does this hint at an earlier than expected release for the PS4? Surely if the campaign has been finished for a full two months, six months more development time is not necessary?
'@Sentry_NC has been for a couple of months. Had couple playtests already. Getting better every time'
https://twitter.com/StevenTerHeide1/status/315402649216352256
This is quite suprising and interesting for two reasons. First, this means the footage that was shown at the Meeting on the 20th was likely using old dev-kits, possibly with 2 or 4GB GDDR5.
Secondly, does this hint at an earlier than expected release for the PS4? Surely if the campaign has been finished for a full two months, six months more development time is not necessary?
TacticalFox88
Banned
They can use that six months to polish the SP and fix any potential problems for the MP.
SniperHunter
Banned
sounds good!
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