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Kojima in Underrated (repost by me)

shantyman

WHO DEY!?
(This was posted in the "MGS3 Bomb bomb" thread and am reposting with a few new bits)

Kojima does not get enough respect. Seriously.

People love to focus on the plot aspect of the MGS series, but he has challenged the conventions of games more than any other big time designer. Unfortunately, his love of melodrama and over the top characters overshadow his design choices.

To talk about MGS 3, there are the surface improvements, and there are many:

1. Camo Index and changing clothes
2. Concept of survival and feeding yourself
3. Close Quarters Combat
4. Performing Surgery or taking medicine
5. Stalking

These are all interesting improvements, but Kojima always takes it a step further. Everything figures into the larger gameplay at some point, or is a major part of the overall picture. For example, Camo index obviously helps you in hiding from the enemy, but it also
is important if the pain gets the hornet attractant on you. You have to change your clothes so as to not attract them.
.

Catching food lends itself to the "survival in the jungle" aspect, but also
is a major part of the endurance aspect of your battle with The End. When you are warned it will be a "grueling test of endurance" by Major Zero, he is not kidding. What other developer would have the balls to have an hour long boss battle? (at least, it took me that long). And it also does not have to take that long depending on how you try to fight the battle. In another thread someone said he used the thermal viewer to follow The End. That's what I did, but another person never tried that. The freedom in the game in many situations is more than people realize.

The final 3 things I listed are all significant additions to the gameplay. They may figure in the way I described the first two but I am not done with the game. At the least they add to the atmosphere/tone of the game. CQC enhances the fighting, which many people were not enamored with. Battles are much more fun, and the new options of holding a guard up, killing him, etc. add a lot, even if they are really just refined from what you could do in MGS2. Surgery and medicine make you think about battles; do you want to risk the major injury, or be more cautious. Although the penalty for the major injuries is pretty mild and it is easily fixed, the concept is sound, especially if you are low on medical supplies. Finally, stalking just makes the character of Snake more convincing- it is now possible to really sneak up on someone easily, as you would expect of a world class soldier.

How about the survival viewer? If you spin snake in it for a while and return to the game, he will get sick and vomit. Kojima in an interview mentioned that he did this because you could only do something like that in a game. Just a joke? No, if you are poisoned you can do it to clear the food poisoning from your system.

This trend goes all the way back to the original MGS. Remember how you had to get Meryl's codec frequency in the first game? It was printed on the back of the package. The Psycho Mantis battle is another example. Kojima has consistently thought outside of the box in terms of expanding gameplay in unconventional ways. MGS2 shows less of this, but the whole Raiden thing was of course a masterstroke of him challenging game players, although I think he overplayed his hand in that case because he underestimates the connections people had with snake. Raiden's characterization hurt things too.

Things like this make me wince when people say it is all movie and no game. It is very cinematic, yes, and the cutscenes and codec scenes are long, but there is so much more than that, and I think Kojima deserves more credit for reaching for something more, even if he fails.. If any MGS haters post in here, that's cool but please just try to make a valid argument. Also, please label spoilers!
 
I'm not sure if Kojima is underrated. MGS3 is definitely underrated though.


-SRV- said:
Kojima is very, very good, but underated? No.

SC is the new stealth king. Kojima is behind the curve.

Pandora Tommorrow sales may disagree with this statement.

500K on Xbox, 180K on PS2. 680K total.

MGS3 will surpass that easily.
 
Splinter Cell: PT sold a few hundred thousand on the PC as well. Chaos Theory looks to be a huge improvement for the series. I can't wait to play it.

I think Kojima is talented. No doubt about it. And if you honestly don't think he gets enough praise then I'm lost for words to type here. The man is just a step behind Miyamoto in regards to praise from the industry "press".
 
I don't want to turn this into another sales thread, but does someone have the figures for SC and SC:PT on all platforms. The dropoff seems pretty substantial and goes to show that perhaps SC isn't as popular as people claim it is and become a one hit wonder due to its timing of the originals release.

Don't forget about Boktai either. How involved was he in ZoE/ZoE 2?
 
I think he gets too much praise,there are so many better games out there that really go unnoticed,I feel his games are more of a storytelling experience than they are an actual videogame.But whatever...
 
Mrbob said:
I don't want to turn this into another sales thread, but does someone have the figures for SC and SC:PT on all platforms. The dropoff seems pretty substantial and goes to show that perhaps SC isn't as popular as people claim it is and become a one hit wonder due to its timing of the originals release.

Don't forget about Boktai either.
To be fair, MGS has seen a similar dropoff... more dramatic even actually. MGS1 was a huge killer app, MGS2 fed off the delayed PS2 launch hype. The subsequent releases (MGS2S, TTS, MGS3) have all stalled in comparison.
 
What beats me is, people are saying MGS 3 has already bombed? What a ridiculous statement, it was lost in the shadow of Halo 2 and GTA: SA's hype, which is understandable, since they're both great games, but I'm sure in December, after good word of mouth (it's been receiving undeniably positive responses and that will spread), good reviews, game of the year awards (it's already won "PSM Game of the Year"), more marketing and for those that disliked MGS 2, to get word that it is as good as the first, if not better.

290k, doesn't mean it's a bomb, not at all, it started selling on November 17, and places started selling it later, remember the not being able to find it fiasco? Also, I'm sure it didn't have many pre-orders. 290k is just a low amount for an MGS game, but that doesn't mean it can't improve, especially after the post-release buzz that's been going around. I'm just sick of people saying "OMG MGS 3 bombed!! Xbox rules all haha!!"

Let's not forget the 650k pre-orders in Japan according to Konami, and the huge advertising scheme over there, read the 1up article for that, and I'm sure Europe, will get some pretty good marketing aswell and plus with the extra bonus content, that can only be a good thing.

MGS 3 is the furthest away from a bomb IMO, people however may still think it is, truth is, MGS 3 in no way, deserves to bomb. Only Kojima/MGS haters, wish it for it that way.
 
Well we shouldn't even really delve into TTS. There are a variety of reasons why it sold poorly. Substance was an add on. It is still too early to make a final call on MGS3. It won't match MGS2 in total sales, but by the end of the day it'll outsell Pandora Tommorrow by a fair margin. And PT is available on multiple platforms including the PS2. So if SC is the new stealth king wouldn't it be outselling MGS by a fair clip?

One thing that always bugs me about a comment like, "Kojima is underrated", is that there is a whole team which makes a game and not one guy.
 
Mrbob said:
One thing that always bugs me about a comment like, "Kojima is underrated", is that there is a whole team which makes a game and not one guy.

Exactly, excellent point, it's not just Kojima, KCEJ are a very talented bunch.

BTW -- these SC vs. MGS are getting pretty boring :lol both are great stealth games but pursue the genre in a different manner, that's what seperates them from each other.

I love MGS, I enjoyed SC for the first few levels but then began to get bored.
 
SC is the new stealth king.
I don't care who's the king of what genre or sub genre, but for my money, there were very few games I've ever played that were as involving, as engrossing, and as fun as MGS3. That's all that matters at the end, IMO.

Having said that, I don't think Kojima is underrated. He is well known and well respected - a lot more than some other authors who really live in the shadow, and deserve more praise than they are getting.
 
Splinter cell is good but not as good as MGS. It does some stuff better than MGS like; camera, graphics, and shadows. But overall the story in both games (Pandora tomorrow and the original) was piss poor and very forgetful.

Both games are different as well. I wouldn't compare them.
 
Well, when I say underrated, I mean in terms of the gameplay itself. I understand he is talked up as much as any designer, but people usually talk about the story and direction and never the interesting gameplay aspects.

PS: I don't mean to give him all the credit. As a team I think KCEJ works the PS2 as good as it gets.
 
Kojima is without a doubt, my favourite games designer, he deserves all the respect he can get :) I can't wait for his next project!
 
shantyman said:
(This was posted in the "MGS3 Bomb bomb" thread and am reposting with a few new bits)

Kojima does not get enough respect. Seriously.

I stopped reading right there. No offense, but that's one of the the most ridiculous things I've ever seen posted on this forum IMO. If anything he probably gets too much credit. There's simply no way that he's underrated.

Edit: I ended up reading your post and you make some good points about the improvements and how he thinks outside of the box but I still don't think the man (or the game) are underrated.
 
While alot of the ideas in MGS3 are pretty good, most of the new ones were pretty much done through a boring pause menu system, this made consistantly changing costumes, feeding, and surgery a pretty big chore at times I thought, constantly pausing during firefights to either change to a less visible costume or fix a wound (which happend pretty often) is very unintuative, and not particularly fun. I ended up ignoring alot of the pause menu systems whenever possible just becuase they became tedious by the end of the game, only using them when they were really needed.
 
SC is the new stealth king. Kojima is behind the curve.

Give me a break. SC was completly trumped by MGS3.

I've noticed, out of all the people that have beaten the game. Only a few actually complained, almost everyone else has given it the praise it deserves. Now to have that happen on GAF, the forum where everyone hates everything, is quite an accomplishment.
 
A couple of years ago I would have said Kojima is "teh game god!!!1", but now I think I find his games aren't really that fun to play in the grand scheme of things. They're definitely better than Splinter Cell, but they still hold your hand through the stealth elements compared to games like Hitman. I also like the camera system in Hitman 10000x more. You have the option of switching between first and third-person and both camera systems actually allow you to see more than 10 feet in front of you.

I do appreciate Kojima's vision when it comes to storytelling and his eye for detail. It always felt great discovering one of his easter eggs as a gamer, knowing that the developer cares enough to add these little touches, but I just find that it's really just the easter eggs and cut-scenes that kept me playing. The gameplay itself was a little too quirky and camera was too awful to completely overlook.
 
Newduck said:
While alot of the ideas in MGS3 are pretty good, most of the new ones were pretty much done through a boring pause menu system, this made consistantly changing costumes, feeding, and surgery a pretty big chore at times I thought, constantly pausing during firefights to either change to a less visible costume or fix a wound (which happend pretty often) is very unintuative, and not particularly fun. I ended up ignoring alot of the pause menu systems whenever possible just becuase they became tedious by the end of the game, only using them when they were really needed.

This is a valid criticism. I wish there was a way to switch camo more quickly, like click R3 or something.
 
I liked Metal Gear Solid and its sequel, but I didn't really care for Twin Snakes or Snake Eater. Maybe Twin Snakes was just so horrible that it turned me off from the series, but I just couldn't like Snake Eater as much.

And Boktai would be a better game if 1.) it didn't require that stupid-as-shit solar sensor and 2.) some of the later parts of the game didn't seem so "complex" or something. I can't put my finger on it, but I was constantly getting lost in Boktai, even with the map. At first, it wasn't a problem at all, but if I hadn't played the game for a while, I was TOTALLY lost later in the game. And I because I don't have time to consistently play games, this became such a major issue for me that I never completed the game. I didn't like having to relearn everything and where I was supposed to go every time I turned on the game.
 
Mrbob said:
Pandora Tommorrow sales may disagree with this statement.
EA's NHL series outsells Visual Concept's NHL2K series every single year, yet the 2K series always receives higher review scores and anyone who's played both and knows a thing about hockey can see which game is superior.
 
-SRV- said:
Kojima is very, very good, but underated? No.

SC is the new stealth king. Kojima is behind the curve.

No, it isn't. SC, while sporting nice lighting, is weighed down by inferior mechanics and plot. While the online component is a nice addition, the game itself is quite unremarkable.
 
the camera makes me hate mgs3 (i mean pull it way back or give us some control if you gonna nix the radar)

now I see why the radar was there.....
 
I recall saying earlier that MGS 3 would be heavily criticized because of it's camera, looks like I was right.

Kojima decided to go with that camera because the previous two MGS games used that camera scheme, and he didn't want to stray too far, because it's a trilogy. The next Metal Gear will probably use a different camera scheme.
 
I feel that Metal Gear Solid 3 is my personal game of the year!!!
Everything feels right besides the camera which I got used to.
Splinter cell was over hyped from the jump, I am gonna buy PT for the xbox live play that is supposed to be so great. (Isn't this game 20 dollars by now?)
I think the one thing splinter cell really does right is the camera, I remember when i bought splinter cell when it first came out the hype made me excited not to mention the ace visuals.
However shooting a sentry point blank in the face with a pistol and not seeing instant death or even blood got to me. How could I forget sam fisher sounds like he is 65!
Very bad balancing issues, very good lighting affects. At the oil rig I just stopped playing and never went back.

Please tell me Pandora's Tommarow is much better in single player as well.
 
I think he's overrated. The thing is, he's the lead designer, and without a good talented team, he wont be doing miracles., good story or not. I feel that a lot of so called innovations by big console developpers are pretty much gimmicks recently, Shiggy included. I really doubt that Shiggy stays late at the office to go thru pages of debug data.

Having to eat in a videogame so you dont lose health? Sorry, I dont think it adds fun to my gameplay experience at all. I just dont care, I see it a very Sims-ish idea. I rented MG3 a few days ago for a week, and well, I was not impressed at all by what i've seen. Some neat scenes from a video-game perspective, but the camera was absolute fucking crap. I really dont care if the main developper has trouble coping with different camera views, I pay for the game, and I want something decent.

The whole stealth thing in the Metal Gear games is terrible, and its no contest for the Hitman series, the Thief games or Splinter Cell. In the splinter cell games, it really felt like you had to sneak, i felt it was much more realistic.

The story in Metal Gear has some interesting roots in reality, but the relationships between the characters are so fucking intolerable. In the MG3 when you start talking to the Boss, and Snake nearly starts crying and that whole "i taught you everything i knew"."WHY DID YOU ABANDON MEEEEE" "I HAD BECAUSE I'M A SOLDIER!!!", i completly skipped thru that saturday morning FoxBox cartoon trash. It's not interesting at all, and It's so over the fucking top that it feels like a parody. Everything someone has some sort of bad trip about "what being a soldier is about" I just suddenly fast forward. I have no interests in this tripe at all and its preventing me to playing. Put character developpement if its actually good, but dont bother me with anime-grade trash.

Kojima makes some interesting stories, but I think he should really drop the whole metal gear franchise and start working on something new, because he milked it to death

Or just make Snatcher II :D
 
Snatcher 2? While I'd probably disagree with your post (I'm in Europe), I agree that he should make another Snatcher, or perhaps return to the cyber punk genre. I think he's been wanting to do that aswell.
 
Naked Shuriken said:
I think he's overrated. The thing is, he's the lead designer, and without a good talented team, he wont be doing miracles., good story or not. I feel that a lot of so called innovations by big console developpers are pretty much gimmicks recently, Shiggy included. I really doubt that Shiggy stays late at the office to go thru pages of debug data.

Having to eat in a videogame so you dont lose health? Sorry, I dont think it adds fun to my gameplay experience at all. I just dont care, I see it a very Sims-ish idea. I rented MG3 a few days ago for a week, and well, I was not impressed at all by what i've seen. Some neat scenes from a video-game perspective, but the camera was absolute fucking crap. I really dont care if the main developper has trouble coping with different camera views, I pay for the game, and I want something decent.

The whole stealth thing in the Metal Gear games is terrible, and its no contest for the Hitman series, the Thief games or Splinter Cell. In the splinter cell games, it really felt like you had to sneak, i felt it was much more realistic.

The story in Metal Gear has some interesting roots in reality, but the relationships between the characters are so fucking intolerable. In the MG3 when you start talking to the Boss, and Snake nearly starts crying and that whole "i taught you everything i knew"."WHY DID YOU ABANDON MEEEEE" "I HAD BECAUSE I'M A SOLDIER!!!", i completly skipped thru that saturday morning FoxBox cartoon trash. It's not interesting at all, and It's so over the fucking top that it feels like a parody. Everything someone has some sort of bad trip about "what being a soldier is about" I just suddenly fast forward. I have no interests in this tripe at all and its preventing me to playing. Put character developpement if its actually good, but dont bother me with anime-grade trash.

Kojima makes some interesting stories, but I think he should really drop the whole metal gear franchise and start working on something new, because he milked it to death

Or just make Snatcher II :D

Fair enough, but you spent over half this post complaining about the story when I made it clear that was not the aspect of the game(s) I was referring to.
 
Mike Works said:
EA's NHL series outsells Visual Concept's NHL2K series every single year, yet the 2K series always receives higher review scores and anyone who's played both and knows a thing about hockey can see which game is superior.

Yeah, and? You totally missed the point of my post. The reason I brought up the sales is that Splinter Cell sold 1.5 million on Xbox and almost 800K on PS2. Pandora Tommorrow has sold just over 500K on Xbox and 180K on PS2. So if Splinter Cell is the new king of stealth why are its sequels sales so subpar compared to original? PT even has the bonus of having one of the best multiplayer additons added to a game which saved its single player mode from getting crushed in reviews.
 
Well, most KCEJ games that Kojima isn't involved in are mediocre to crap, so I guess he does deserve a lot of credit for MGS, Boktai and ZOE.
 
kojima underrated? no. I like the MGS series' gameplay, but beyond that, man, a lot of his games are gimmicky as hell when they're fun, or they just plain suck. and before MGS3, I would have said thief was the better stealth series (as they were much more focused on all the aspects of stealth, while MGS games can be played through on alert except on the highest difficulties) and it may even still be better just for pure stealth (although MGS3's gameplay rocks and finally makes the experience much better as a stealth game). Kojima also can't write a plot for shit and should let someone else do the stories for his games, because they're so ludicrously bad and yet so story driven. he isn't necessarily an innovator either, but his games have a lot of polish to them, more than most other console developers.
 
I don't think Mr. Kojima iz underrated. He was voted as the most influential developer (in Japan atleast) according to a recent poll conducted by Famitsu. It's amazing how much has change in the world of gaming. MGS2 was THE reason many people bought a PS2, but times change, and well...
 
I think he's great, but I think he's over the head of a lot of people who play his games :P
 
Wasnt he named as one of the most likely people to shape the future, or something like that, by TIME? :lol :lol

MGS is by far my favorite series, but i wouldnt call him underated
 
Overrated to me. Most of the additions mentioned in the first post are just a bunch of qwirky ideas. Cool when playing around, but nothing too exciting. Cure system/survival viewer were very unnecessary, and actually made things more tedious as you hop in and out of that menu constantly when injured. Camo was so obvious and simple to use that it actually becomes a drag to use it. Obviously if I'm sneaking around at night I should use black camo, do I really have to go into a menu to do this? Stalking just made it easier to sneak if you suck using analogue sticks, just like the crouch pose in Splinter Cell. The food idea seems important at first, but it really isn't. Just introduces a collection idea like the dog tags for replay value.

Not to say MG3 was bad or anything. The forest setting and elimination of radar changed things up nicely. But the rest is just a bunch of little ideas, some work and some don't. Unfortunately with a camera system that is hopefully never ever seen again in a MGS title
 
Mrbob said:
I'm not sure if Kojima is underrated. MGS3 is definitely underrated though.

Pandora Tommorrow sales may disagree with this statement.

500K on Xbox, 180K on PS2. 680K total.

MGS3 will surpass that easily.

You stole my post. :|
 
He's overrated over the simple fact that he didn't program MGS3 from the ground up. He has a whole team backing him up, busting their backs doing this shit. This is not the imput of a single man.
 
not under rated. he totally has a following. i think famitsu did a poll a while back, and the only designer bigger than him is Miyamoto.

and totally not over rated either, after all, he did make Snatcher and Policenauts.
 
Kojima rox

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-SRV- said:
SC is the new stealth king. Kojima is behind the curve.
This has got to be a trolling joke. Praise Pandora Tomorrow for its multiplayer and I don't care (I didn't much like it, but I don't like online anyway--and there's no split screen). But anyone with a semi-critical mind should see that the single player is absolute trash. Even if the horrifically buggy AI didn't constantly crap in your face, the rest of the game is still just "meh"--nothing special about it save for lighting effects.
Mrbob said:
How involved was he in ZoE/ZoE 2?
Same role as in the MGS games as far as I know, though I believe the idea of ZOE was originated by Yoji Shinkawa. So many design philosophies evident in ZOE2 are strikingly similar to those in the MGS games (ZOE1 much less so).

And Boktai is indeed an awesome game. If you don't like the solar sensor then it's even better. Game is a million times more fun without it, and you only need it at the end of boss fights (for about a minute at a time).

I think Kojima is definitely underrated by some people, and appropriately rated by others. Which is about the same as most well-known game producers. They'll have their haters, but they're not well-known because they're underrated. Although I will agree that Kojima is pushing gaming like no other producer right now, and that's generally not recognized, even among those that enjoy his games.
 
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