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[Ether_Snake]

Ok, lets be honest, If we didn't invade Iraq and this dam broke, kiling people etc etc...would anyone here really give a damn?

500,000 dead people? Yeah I think people tend to care about this stuff.

 

[Ether_Snake]

Its because Iraqi engineers think the dam is just fine and doesnt need to be fixed and the US engineers think it has an unacceptable failure rate. So basically ironically if the US wouldnt have invaded Iraq it would have never come to our attention unless it failed.

Oh yeah that reminds me about that dam in the US, I think it was in New Orleans, that didn't come to our attention until it broke or something.

 

[Zeed]

Those were levees, not a dam.

 

[Gaborn]

Those were levees, not a dam.

You're right, but there is no practical difference. A levee is a dam (even if a dam isn't necessarily a levee).

 

[Chumly]

Oh yeah that reminds me about that dam in the US, I think it was in New Orleans, that didn't come to our attention until it broke or something.

Uh weve known about that since New Orleans was founded. I watched shows back in the 90's that talked about if there was a hurricane strong enough and if it hit at the right angle it would swamp New Orleans. The problem is that New Orleans was built below sea level and there was nothing economical that they could do or people wanted to do. So basically weve known about it for decades but people dont want to spend the money to improve the position or the REAL thing that needs to happen is FORCE people to move which nobody wants to do. But from your attitude it doesnt seem like you would know things like this.

 

[JCBossman]

Well Wouldn't this General Knowledge be dangerous of Al Queda in Iraqi finds out about it and plants some BOMBS around the base?

 

[CrushDance]

:lol

 

[Chumly]

In many ways it's probably the best possible news that we know about this BEFORE something happens. That probably means we're going to try to take preventative steps. If, say 2 months from now the dam breaks THEN I'll be the first one screaming about the incompetent US government. But right now? I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. As much as this could be a problem I'm not going to criticize them for a dam that MIGHT break UNTIL it breaks.

US wants to fix it. Iraqi officials say the dams just fine and dont want to fix it. Whos at fault? Besides its gonna take a hell of a lot longer than two months to fix a completely crap dam. The US wants to build another dam down the river as a fail-safe because of reasons ive already listed earlier.

 

[Gaborn]

US wants to fix it. Iraqi officials say the dams just fine and dont want to fix it. Whos at fault? Besides its gonna take a hell of a lot longer than two months to fix a completely crap dam. The US wants to build another dam down the river as a fail-safe because of reasons ive already listed earlier.

I'd say the US is at fault because right now we have control over the country. As long as we deny Iraqi sovereignty (by not turning over the murderers at Blackwater for trial) we have responsibility for problems in the country.

 

[Crushed]

DAMN THOSE SHARKS! DESTROYING DAMS!

I was going to say.

NOW we know why there's a 75% chance the US is placing trained supersharks into Iraqi waters. To attack their children and break their dams.

 

[Armitage]

In all seriousness, I didn't think Iraq had any bodies of water.

Cradle of civilization? Nothing?

 

[Chumly]

I'd say the US is at fault because right now we have control over the country. As long as we deny Iraqi sovereignty (by not turning over the murderers at Blackwater for trial) we have responsibility for problems in the country.

:lol ?

I guess we werent being harsh enough on Iraq. We should just deny them of all choices that they have. The blackwater incident is a completely seperate thing from this and doesnt even compare. If you want Iraqi people to have sovereignty which so many other people do also should we just deny them that and make them build the second dam which is necessary which would cost billions of dollars and flood homes of potentially thousands of iraqis? The Iraqi government believes the dam is safe. They thought it was safe before we invaded them and they think it is STILL safe and the refuse to do anything about it. So unless we start revoking MORE of their freedoms (Unless thats what you believe we should do) its not gonna happen and its not the US's fault.

 

[Gaborn]

:lol ?

I guess we werent being harsh enough on Iraq. We should just deny them of all choices that they have. The blackwater incident is a completely seperate thing from this and doesnt even compare.

Of course it isn't. the Iraqi government has the right to determine something as basic as whether or not someone who murders civilians should stand trial or should not. If they can't even do THAT, and we feel there is a problem with dams we should fix them.

If you want Iraqi people to have sovereignty which so many other people do also should we just deny them that and make them build the second dam which is necessary which would cost billions of dollars and flood homes of potentially thousands of iraqis?

I agree. We should pull out and allow them to fix the dam or not as THEY choose. Because we are there though and because WE identified a problem we have the MORAL responsibility to fix it. What if that poor dutch boy in the old fable had decided to walk away and ignored the leaking dike? Wouldn't that have been wrong?

The Iraqi government believes the dam is safe. They thought it was safe before we invaded them and they think it is STILL safe and the refuse to do anything about it. So unless we start revoking MORE of their freedoms (Unless thats what you believe we should do) its not gonna happen and its not the US's fault.

We've already co-opted their justice system, changed their government by force, and imposed curfews on the the Iraqi populace. I'd say it'd be pretty hard to deny them MORE freedom. I'm not sure why you think we have a moral responsibility to stay in Iraq (a situation we created) but we don't have a moral responsibility to repair or correct a dam (a problem we think we noticed). It seems they're both rather related.

 

[Chumly]

Of course it isn't. the Iraqi government has the right to determine something as basic as whether or not someone who murders civilians should stand trial or should not. If they can't even do THAT, and we feel there is a problem with dams we should fix them.





I agree. We should pull out and allow them to fix the dam or not as THEY choose. Because we are there though and because WE identified a problem we have the MORAL responsibility to fix it. What if that poor dutch boy in the old fable had decided to walk away and ignored the leaking dike? Wouldn't that have been wrong?



We've already co-opted their justice system, changed their government by force, and imposed curfews on the the Iraqi populace. I'd say it'd be pretty hard to deny them MORE freedom. I'm not sure why you think we have a moral responsibility to stay in Iraq (a situation we created) but we don't have a moral responsibility to repair or correct a dam (a problem we think we noticed). It seems they're both rather related.

Whatever I can see its useless argueing with you since your so against the war/US government for invading iraq. Its always the US's fault!

Fact of the matter is that what your trying to fight for and why everyone hates the war is something that you want to take away. A project of this magnitude/cost/effects/potential for death is so beyond blackwater incident its not even funny. Currently the Iraqi governent and people are very against the necessary measures that the US wants to make. Currently the US is taking measures to fix the dam. But the US feels its kind of like patchwork and doesnt fix the underlying problem which it doesnt.

But seriously as you would like to say...screw Iraqis and there freedoms. Our military needs to crack down on them!

 

[smurfx]

screw the Army Corps of Engineers let's get some real professionals in there to do the job.

 

[Gaborn]

Whatever I can see its useless argueing with you since your so against the war/US government for invading iraq. Its always the US's fault!

Wrong. I believe intervening in world affairs when we are not at risk is wrong. I reject nation building. I'm not a Wilsonian liberal like Bush, I'm closer to Jefferson (at least in his first term). I believe that Democracy is not something that can be imposed on a populace, I believe it is something that is fought for by people that want it, that is strained for and that is a true labor of love.

I believe in my country whether I believe it is right or wrong, but it doesn't make me unpatriotic to say that I think some of our policies are wrong. I'm a citizen of the United States and Bush is my President, but he is not the arbiter of what I believe is right. You are right, I WILL speak out and say that something is wrong, but I do it out of love for my country, and for the ideals it represents. I think that America is the greatest country on earth, but that means I will hold it to the highest standards because I believe it deserves to be held to those standards.

Fact of the matter is that what your trying to fight for and why everyone hates the war is something that you want to take away.

I want to restore Iraqis freedoms. I want to give them power to decide their own policies, make their own mistakes and their own decisions. I don't think the US should be involved with the dam, but we ARE involved because the administration has unilaterally decided to tell the Iraqi government what it does and does not have power over. Bush wants to tout the vote for the Iraqi parliament as a sign that Democracy is working in Iraq. I am not sure what that matters because all I see is the US taking power away from the Iraqis.

A project of this magnitude/cost/effects/potential for death is so beyond blackwater incident its not even funny.

But not beyond the scope of the Iraq war. We're already over 2 trillion dollars spent on Iraq, this would be a drop in the bucket of Bush's war.

Currently the Iraqi governent and people are very against the necessary measures that the US wants to make. Currently the US is taking measures to fix the dam.

Exactly. In a sovereign country we wouldn't be fixing it because it would be Iraq's problem. The US realizes Iraq is not a sovereign nation so it is unilaterally taking responsibility for the dam.

But the US feels its kind of like patchwork and doesnt fix the underlying problem which it doesnt.

Perhaps not, too bad we're still in there so we feel the need to butt into Iraqi domestic and structural policy.

But seriously as you would like to say...screw Iraqis and there freedoms. Our military needs to crack down on them!

Is... it possible we're arguing from the same point of view? Or are you really such a war monger that you think we have the right to subjugate a populace?