Suburban Cowboy
Member
In other words, the only thing being added to the next burnout is online. If GC version doesnt have online people will realize how shallow of a sequel the game is.Mama Smurf said:
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Late: Why Did Criterion halt GCN support?
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typhonsentra
Banned
Even if it was online for Burnout, doesn't explain Black.
HomerSimpson-Man
Member
typhonsentra said:
It was at one time a Playstation 2 only game, after EA then an Xbox version was hear about.
Don't get me wrong... I own a Gamecube... and it's got some great titles.
But I'm also a game developer who's developed several multiplatform games... and lemme tell you:
- Can't effectively compress alpha textures... so anthing transparent takes up a lot of space in RAM
- Forced to use ARAM for specific types of assets... so you have to juggle your RAM
- Ridiculously small disk ! Have to reduce cut-scenes and streamed data !
- No built-in blur function, must downsample which looks like shit next to Xbox and PS2
- No online strategy in any way shape or form
- None of the face buttons on the controller are pressure sensitive like the PS2
I could go on, but this is a good start
But I'm also a game developer who's developed several multiplatform games... and lemme tell you:
- Can't effectively compress alpha textures... so anthing transparent takes up a lot of space in RAM
- Forced to use ARAM for specific types of assets... so you have to juggle your RAM
- Ridiculously small disk ! Have to reduce cut-scenes and streamed data !
- No built-in blur function, must downsample which looks like shit next to Xbox and PS2
- No online strategy in any way shape or form
- None of the face buttons on the controller are pressure sensitive like the PS2
I could go on, but this is a good start
Lemurnator
Banned
cuz gamecube sux m i rite guyz?lololol
Musashi Wins!
FLAWLESS VICTOLY!
Q: Will the GameCube version have some advantages over the PS2 version?
[Alex Ward] The disc that it comes on is a lot smaller.
:lol
[Alex Ward] The disc that it comes on is a lot smaller.
:lol
Particle Physicist
between a quark and a baryon
honestly, some of the dropped support for the cube this gen was a bit baffling.. do you think there was a political/underhanded business reason for much of the dropped support?
Musashi Wins!
FLAWLESS VICTOLY!
quadriplegicjon said:
Bob White said:
It was the Illuminati. Don't tell anyone.
ThunderEmperor
Banned
Ikaris said:Don't get me wrong... I own a Gamecube... and it's got some great titles.
But I'm also a game developer who's developed several multiplatform games... and lemme tell you:
- Can't effectively compress alpha textures... so anthing transparent takes up a lot of space in RAM
- Forced to use ARAM for specific types of assets... so you have to juggle your RAM
- Ridiculously small disk ! Have to reduce cut-scenes and streamed data !
- No built-in blur function, must downsample which looks like shit next to Xbox and PS2
- No online strategy in any way shape or form
- None of the face buttons on the controller are pressure sensitive like the PS2
I could go on, but this is a good start
then could you explain to me how res evil 4 looks so good. mr developer. :lol
HomerSimpson-Man
Member
ThunderEmperor said:then could you explain to me how res evil 4 looks so good. mr developer. :lol
Er, that's a bit vague isn't it? That's pretty much asking why game A looks as good as it does compared to game B,C,E which can be applied to all the consoles especially games designed only from one system in mind to multiplatform games.
Ikaris said:Don't get me wrong... I own a Gamecube... and it's got some great titles.
But I'm also a game developer who's developed several multiplatform games... and lemme tell you:
- Can't effectively compress alpha textures... so anthing transparent takes up a lot of space in RAM
- Forced to use ARAM for specific types of assets... so you have to juggle your RAM
- Ridiculously small disk ! Have to reduce cut-scenes and streamed data !
- No built-in blur function, must downsample which looks like shit next to Xbox and PS2
- No online strategy in any way shape or form
- None of the face buttons on the controller are pressure sensitive like the PS2
I could go on, but this is a good start
This yeah, but the main thing that it takes LOTS of thread pages for Nfans to understand:
GAMECUBE ISN'T WHERE THE MONEY IS AT.
Unless maybe you want an half baked shitty 3 months port?
So why is the Xbox is receiving a version? -- racing games sells good on Xbox.
Game politics. The thought online matters more than it really did for the game. It wasn't a matter of sales. Really, just game politics. Like, Free Radical and the publisher could have ditched Timesplitters 3 on the GC because it wasn't online, but they didn't because it's not their perogative. Burnout 1 and 2 sold well on the Cube and I believe one of the versions actually outsould the Xbox one. I mean, I like the Burnout games, but the ports of the games took months and months after the initial release to come out. Thus the company itself was killing of all hype and vibe the original had and killing their own sales. Which is amazing since it's a renderware game, supposedly making porting easier? Right. Black was originally PS2 exclusive, Burnout has been a ps2 first release game, Criterion is a Sony favoring company. Politics, perogative, convenient excuses. Welcome to mainstream gaming.
Leatherface said:
Nah, I think he actually tells himself this enough that he believes it. Believe amirite???
But uh, if someone could give some actual sales numbers for Burnout on all three systems that would be terrific. I think a lack of online play is a great reason, as it seems like (judging from the jump in options in Burnout Revenge) they consider it a very important part of the game.
i.e. It's just Nintendo's fault. Simple as that.
Bluemercury
Member
Ikaris said:Don't get me wrong... I own a Gamecube... and it's got some great titles.
But I'm also a game developer who's developed several multiplatform games... and lemme tell you:
- Can't effectively compress alpha textures... so anthing transparent takes up a lot of space in RAM
- Forced to use ARAM for specific types of assets... so you have to juggle your RAM
- Ridiculously small disk ! Have to reduce cut-scenes and streamed data !
- No built-in blur function, must downsample which looks like shit next to Xbox and PS2
- No online strategy in any way shape or form
- None of the face buttons on the controller are pressure sensitive like the PS2
I could go on, but this is a good start
Next thing you're going to tell me is that the PS2 is a better overall console than Gc.....that's not an excuse.....
Ninja Scooter
Member
you guys act like Criterion is the only one cutting back or quitting on GC development. Why are people singeling them out?
typhonsentra
Banned
Ninja Scooter said:
Because they were one of the more unexpected ones.
And besides, they cut support when they finally had the concept perfected.
Musashi Wins!
FLAWLESS VICTOLY!
Amir0x said:
no it's oh snap!
Ninja Scooter
Member
typhonsentra said:
why was it unexpected? Didn't the head of Criterion always talk shit and take little jabs at Nintendo, even when they WERE developing for gamecube? You gotta figure that first chance he gets to jump off that ship, he's gonna take it.
typhonsentra
Banned
The things shown so far I wouldn't call stabs. Exactly what did he say?
Criterion had no issues with making a GC version of Burnout 1 and 2, and the sales were there to back it up. It's odd that once EA picked up the game from Acclaim the GameCube version mysteriously disappeared. If I had to distribute the blame here, I would say it's 60% Criterion and and 40% EA that Burnout 3 or Revenge isn't on the GameCube. I would bet a dollar that Online has something to do with it in Criterion's case, though EA was willing to put NFSU on the GC, which is online on other systems (different developer, though).
Black is a different story, since it's target demographic apparently falls outside the stereotypical range of the GameCube audience.
Black is a different story, since it's target demographic apparently falls outside the stereotypical range of the GameCube audience.
dark10x said:
What you'd use to do either do depth of field, a motion / gaussian blur, etc...
The Xbox has something on the hardware to do this, whereas you have to do it in a roundabout way on the Gamecube.
Yes, Wind Waker had depth of field. It you look close, you can see it doesn't look that great, not as good as it would look on Xbox.
This is NOT A BIG DEAL, of course... it's only blur. But it's the truth.
ThunderEmperor said:then could you explain to me how res evil 4 looks so good. mr developer. :lol
As HomerSimpson-Man said, it was created on Gamecube, for Gamecube. If its your first SKU, of course, it will look great.
Without a doubt, the PS2 version of RE4 will lose a few features that the GC version had. The truth, however, is that most companies develop with PS2 as their main SKU, mostly because they got a lot of PS2 TEST units first, then Gamecube kits later.
Bluemercury said:
OK, well how about I list what Gamecube does better than PS2 ?
- S3TC texture compression... even though it doesn't compress transparent textures, they are smaller than palletized textures, in most cases, but don't necessarily look better in all sitautions. (think GIF versus JPEG)
- More capable at advanced material effects (multi-texturing, per-pixel specular, etc...)
- ARAM (even though its frustrating to have to use it in a special way, its super-fast RAM)
I'm sure there's a few other things... if developers want to pile on, go ahead.
Fair is fair... they both have advantages, but porting from PS2 / Xbox to Gamecube can be a horrorshow... and that's all I'm trying to say
So Criterion might have not been able to fit all of what they want to do on Gamecube without sacrificing quality.
Trust me, when you port a game from PS2 or Xbox to Gamecube, you have to sacrifice quality. It's the sad truth.
If the game looks EXACTLY THE SAME on GC as it did on PS2 / Xbox, it probably means that the PS2 / Xbox versions are not pushing their respective hardware to 100%.
Ikaris said:What you'd use to do either do depth of field, a motion / gaussian blur, etc...
The Xbox has something on the hardware to do this, whereas you have to do it in a roundabout way on the Gamecube.
Yes, Wind Waker had depth of field. It you look close, you can see it doesn't look that great, not as good as it would look on Xbox.
This is NOT A BIG DEAL, of course... it's only blur. But it's the truth.
As HomerSimpson-Man said, it was created on Gamecube, for Gamecube. If its your first SKU, of course, it will look great.
Without a doubt, the PS2 version of RE4 will lose a few features that the GC version had. The truth, however, is that most companies develop with PS2 as their main SKU, mostly because they got a lot of PS2 TEST units first, then Gamecube kits later.
OK, well how about I list what Gamecube does better than PS2 ?
- S3TC texture compression... even though it doesn't compress transparent textures, they are smaller than palletized textures, in most cases, but don't necessarily look better in all sitautions. (think GIF versus JPEG)
- More capable at advanced material effects (multi-texturing, per-pixel specular, etc...)
- ARAM (even though its frustrating to have to use it in a special way, its super-fast RAM)
I'm sure there's a few other things... if developers want to pile on, go ahead.
Fair is fair... they both have advantages, but porting from PS2 / Xbox to Gamecube can be a horrorshow... and that's all I'm trying to say
So Criterion might have not been able to fit all of what they want to do on Gamecube without sacrificing quality.
Trust me, when you port a game from PS2 or Xbox to Gamecube, you have to sacrifice quality. It's the sad truth.
If the game looks EXACTLY THE SAME on GC as it did on PS2 / Xbox, it probably means that the PS2 / Xbox versions are not pushing their respective hardware to 100%.
WHY DO YOU HATE NINTENDO
Ah, that makes sense. Those effects are far less common on the GC and, when they are present, they tend to look like crap next to similar PS2 or XBOX games.
That might explain why Twin Snakes was so lacking in this department. They barely used any sort of post processing filters despite the fact that MGS2 and 3 make better usage of those effects than most games on the market.
Do you know how the DC compares here? I've never actually seen ANY DC game pull off depth of field or any similar effects. At best, there have been a few games with ultra simplistic motion blur (similar to what you'd see on PSX).
Another question...
In the Burnout Revenge thread, we were looking at the sunglare effects in the game. From the common "sunlight" effect to the appearance of sunlight on surfaces (kinda like bloom lighting). How are these effects achieved? They really weren't ever seen prior to the PS2...but they've become very common today. I've always wondered how they work.
It's not the sad truth. The truth is that most developers now have core technology groups that twink their respective engines, clients, ect. This way they are able to reuse many of the same assets with minor changes, visual upgrades/downgrades depending on the platform. One of the things introduced this generation (to major third party games) is concurrent development. No longer do they finish game X for playtform Y and then port game X to platform Z. They are developing the game for both platforms.
The reason Criterion stopped GC development is due to the lack of online support. If Nintendo would have had any online platform this generation there would be many more games.
BatiGOOOOOOL
Member
AniHawk said:
:lol
I dont think it has anything to do with the cube's hardware. I have all three current consoles and from what I've seen, the cube is more than capable of outperforming a PS2 and nearly neck and neck with the Xbox.
I agree that there have been some shocking cancellations in the Gamecube's lifetime. Why didnt Namco put Soul Calibur 3 on Gamecube? In America SC2 sold best on Gamecube. That just doesnt make sense considering how close Nintendo and Namco have been in the past.
I never believed Criterion's reasoning behind cancelling BO3. No online? Majority of the people that bought this game probably dont use the online features. If you look at the numbers, online gaming is hardly mainstream.
I suppose its politics but what is the problem exactly? Maybe its just another sign that Nintendo still marginalise third party developers. At the end of the day it all comes down to the bottom line.
I agree that there have been some shocking cancellations in the Gamecube's lifetime. Why didnt Namco put Soul Calibur 3 on Gamecube? In America SC2 sold best on Gamecube. That just doesnt make sense considering how close Nintendo and Namco have been in the past.
I never believed Criterion's reasoning behind cancelling BO3. No online? Majority of the people that bought this game probably dont use the online features. If you look at the numbers, online gaming is hardly mainstream.
I suppose its politics but what is the problem exactly? Maybe its just another sign that Nintendo still marginalise third party developers. At the end of the day it all comes down to the bottom line.
- The market isn't there. The GCN fanbase is deadset (literally) on buying Nintendo-only stuff; good or bad. 3rd parties did'nt strive on the platform this time around compared to Nintendo's past consoles.
- The storage media; 1.5 GB compared to 5 GB+.
- It seems like Nintendo is ashamed of marketing 3rd party product. Honestly, it'd be a wise decision next generation to bend over backwards whilst preparing the KY jelly, so I don't doubt that marketing has something to do with it.
- And Criterion just did'nt find the GCN platform all that intriguing anymore. Just like Rockstar, most American devs, and some Japanese devs who found the GCN a sinking ship.
It's no big deal, really. Nintendo gets to start all over with Revolution. Will it yield the same results? I don't know. But it's my belief that the industry, including their customers (the gamers), are fickle. They'll flock to the next big thing right away... but that's just my belief anyway.
- The storage media; 1.5 GB compared to 5 GB+.
- It seems like Nintendo is ashamed of marketing 3rd party product. Honestly, it'd be a wise decision next generation to bend over backwards whilst preparing the KY jelly, so I don't doubt that marketing has something to do with it.
- And Criterion just did'nt find the GCN platform all that intriguing anymore. Just like Rockstar, most American devs, and some Japanese devs who found the GCN a sinking ship.
It's no big deal, really. Nintendo gets to start all over with Revolution. Will it yield the same results? I don't know. But it's my belief that the industry, including their customers (the gamers), are fickle. They'll flock to the next big thing right away... but that's just my belief anyway.
typhonsentra
Banned
JavyOO7 said:
Again, how does this add anything to the argument? Burnout 1 and 2 sold fairly well on the Gamecube so your point about the Gamecube audience is moot.
typhonsentra said:
But Criterion saw it differently. They certainly see something that we don't. Alot of publishers from 2003-2004 basically gave up; they did'nt believe in Nintendo's business model.
It's not politics neither; in a perfect world I don't doubt that developers would develop for all platforms but just can't.