CecilRousso
Member
That's the kind of thinking that kills innovation.
Latest Steam Controller design spotted in client beta?
- Thread starter ashecitism
- Start date
That's the kind of thinking that kills innovation.
ashecitism
Member
Did you actually look up impressions and opinions at all?
I'm pretty sure I read impressions from a dev (Phil Fish, or maybe the Braid guy?) that said the pad was really bad for platformers. Not sure why someone would design a controller with no dpad to be quite fucking honest.
Also from that demo video this thing does not look good or fast enough for PC FPS. He's moving like a snail in CS:GO.
ashecitism
Member
Pretty sure you mean Tommy Refenes (Team Meat) and he liked it.
Also, there are multiple impressions and vids out there with people playing platformers and fighting games with it. Some like it, some don't.
Also, the general reception of this hasn't been good at all, the press quasi hates it, so no, Valve doesn't get away with it.
My problem with it is that for the type of games I'd like to play with this (Civ, Total War, ARPGs etc), more buttons would be better than having a stick slapped on. When I think of games that utilize an analog stick, it's ones that would function just fine with a traditional gamepad. It seems like a pointless step towards something we already have in abundance.
Okay, that works in Papers Please. Stuff like Adventure Games and I suppose things like Civ. I can see myself using it there. It just seems like that's a lot more niche usage than a 1 trackpad setup for the majority of games that are made today.
Without using it, I can't say for certain that I don't think think that's a good solution instead of having more, actual buttons, but those are my feelings right now.
Even so, I still don't get why the analog stick needs to be there instead of buttons (or a dpad).
Your describing every mouse centric game as a niche when PC gaming has 100s of them that all need to be supported, again the point of the controller. From turn based and RTS to point and clicks. If they actually get it to work well enough, casual usage in MOBAs may also be a possibility. That's not even taking into account the uses of two pads in future games via native support.
Lots of possibilities when considering native over legacy support which is just emulating mouse and keyboard. Heck they may even work well in racing games if you use the two pads to emulate velocity based movements of two hands for steering.
ashecitism
Member
Because as it has been said multiple times in this thread a lot of testers simply didn't like the left pad as movement, at least not in legacy mode.
I would have hoped the response to that would be improving the left pad for movement inputs instead of shoehorning in a component that will be useless in a large number of m/kb driven games that this thing is supposedly being designed for.
Now it just seems like a normal gamepad but with a much better aiming method for shooters, and if we're going to be honest with ourselves, it's not like a lot of people will abandon m/kb to play CS with this.
BurnOutBrighter
Banned
The more they make it like a "standard" console controller, the more likely I am to just stick with my wired 360 controller.
I'm not so hot on the analog stick, but I'm sure they've added it after careful consideration and lots of feedback. It's even possible they'll get rid of it again after further testing/feedback.
It'd be interesting if they could come up with swappable elements like in this image:
Keep the trackpads but make the dpad/stick area into ports where you can just plugin whatever you want. Would be really interesting for mods as well if they can come up with a good interface.
I'm really enjoying the way they approach the development of the controller, but reading these threads is always so frustrating.
It'd be interesting if they could come up with swappable elements like in this image:
Keep the trackpads but make the dpad/stick area into ports where you can just plugin whatever you want. Would be really interesting for mods as well if they can come up with a good interface.
I'm really enjoying the way they approach the development of the controller, but reading these threads is always so frustrating.
ashecitism
Member
That's an early Valve patent. They probably abandoned it.
This has been designed to be usable with the entirety of the Steam library, not just m/kb driven games.
This has been designed to be usable with the entirety of the Steam library, not just m/kb driven games.
Noisepurge
Member
well, you can already play Mass Effect with any wireless pad?
and i sort of agree with you, this doesnt need a Dpad, fighting game players have, will and can buy literally any professional fighting game controller to satisfy those needs.
I feel like that's a huge mistake. It'd be better to make this the best m/kb replacement it can be and encourage people to use existing controllers for games that benefit from an analog stick.
It's not like this won't be better than a traditional gamepad for a lot of games anyway, but I'm afraid it will turn into a mediocre version of what it could have been.
Compared to the amount of games that wouldn't really benefit from a 2 trackpad setup? Yeah, I think the number is niche. That's fine if the controller's purpose is to be used primarily for those games. I just am not sure how good it is for a general purpose design. I could be wrong on that.
Maybe they could make it customizeable with swappable somehow? I'd like someway to get the best of all worlds. 2 Trackpads is best for "mouse-centric" (RTS) games, Stick is best for 3D-Movement games, D-pad is best for 2D movement/fighters, etc. So anyway you go currently is "giving up" something to get something. I guess the current design is the best compromise if you're not big into having the best controls possible for D-pad games or are okay with using a different controller for them.
I don't know about shoehorning. Obviously they might as well have something there, right? I guess it also could be a d-pad or four face buttons like it was previously. Hard to say what's best but I think this makes sense when the purpose is to play FPS's on the controller. That's a popular genre on PC. People who like to play games that require D-pad should really realize that there are already brilliant options to do exactly that on PC. Not so on a controller that allows you to play games requiring mouse or that are better with one.
It's more than that. Think about all the mouse driven games on PC. Hell the hottest new game on the machine right now is exactly like that. No doubt you could make it work with a 360 controller or so but can't you see how much better it would be with a Steam controller? This is the most exciting thing about the controller to me. Playing all of these games that simply require mouse input. It's not about replacing m/kb but giving a competent alternative for playing on sofa and such.
I don't think creating a controller that (relatively) excels at mouse driven games but works with all genres. It's unrealistic to think that there's a controller that's best for every genre. That's just not thinkable. What we can have is a controller that's best for those PC signature genres (FPS, RTS, point & click, building etc.) and works with other genres just fine.
Yeah, I could see left being a stick just nicely while the right would really suit the mouse like trackpad.
For a while, I thought about how I was going to solve my front room gaming dilemma, before this was announced. Started to err towards a wireless gaming mouse for the right hand and the PSMove directional thing for the left. Never did get it set up though!
Not from what I understand. You can go hack into the .ini file but it is not an ideal solution from what I read. Joypad mappers just don't give the same quality either.
I don't think anyone is looking to play competitive CS on the couch. But would I play Mass Effect or Wolfenstein: The New Order with this? Absolutely. Far Cry 4? Yep. Any single player (or even co-op) shooter would be great with this. GTAV? You bet. There's tons of shooters that are comfortable with a controller and would be great with this.
Plus action games, RPGs, etc. Let's not forget that the Steam Box is meant to be a Living Room item and this is a controller for that and needs to work well with more than just top-down mouse games. Having a stick is pretty important, imo.
Pointer driven games are not niche on Steam. E.g. Civ V is one of the highest-selling and most played titles. And for games which are not pointer driven, adequate gamepads already exist.
Exactly. Just look at the 10 most played games on Steam right now. I could easily see all of them play better on a Steam Controller than 360/XBONE/PS4 controller.
Yeah basically. Although I could see myself playing CS casually online because why not.
I'm baffled.
Ok, lets take a scenario here. I recently did the Morrowind Overhaul to check out how it would look on my PC. Looked wonderful. Until I decided to play it, when I realised I couldn't read any of the menus. On the other hand, Skyrim... an absolute delight to read and use with a controller.
I had the same issue with Planetside 2. Hours soaked into it but abandoned on moving to the front room. Map, chat window, UI elements - all unreadable.
Your upper screenshot, all I see there is something that I will not be able to use, thereby challenging the definition of "infinitely more usable".
This is why I think PC UI's should come in two flavours: 1) desk based, 2) sofa based.
I would also expect 2 to become more prevalent as users become increasingly less deskbound when it comes to PC usage.
Sentenza
Member
Eh, fuck the D-pad.
Why are you sorry for me? I'm not the poor bastard who will be suffering out of this.Sorry Tuco, looks like some people will be playing Divinity with a controller after all.
I have a mouse, a keyboard and two working hands.
ashecitism
Member
Yes, I would rank it a lot more important than d-pad. Sticks you can use with like.. everything? Meanwhile with the majority of games (especially heavy hitters) d-pad is relegated as a menu selector. Also the pads can work as a d-pad, and couple of devs who are privy to stuff said it worked pretty well like that when configured. In legacy mode it's more tricky and that's what the 300 testers and the people who tried it at CES and GDC were exposed to.
I prefer playing UI-heavy games on a 2560x1440 (hopefully soon 4k) monitor. Still baffled?
In the Skyrim screenshot, I see something which doesn't even show a small fraction of the information which could be shown, throws away most of the available space and uses a massive font for no reason.
Sure, but the Steam Box is meant to be a living room device and I'd assume that the target audience that it is meant to bring in is more akin to the console audience. In which case the controller needs to be good for the games that they buy too. Do you really think Valve wants to tell those people "oh, for the games you like, you should go and buy someone else's controller to play with"? This is meant for more than just your current PC audience.
So I think the stick is good and that overall, this design is a good compromise. Serious D-pad people are the types who will buy better controllers to play them and the trackpad is a "good enough" d-pad substitute for most people and most of my original concerns on the layout have been put to rest.
But seriously, swap the X/Y and A/B positions.
Candescence
Member
They've been testing new designs both internally and with various players and devs, they must have replaced the d-pad with a stick for a reason, based on that feedback. If the pads work well enough as a d-pad that the d-pad like buttons felt superfluous to the majority of testers, then Valve probably replaced it with a stick for the purpose of providing an alternate means of analog movement, though at the cost of inherently less functionality.
Have you seen the Witcher 3's UI particularly in menus? It is very comparable to Durante first example and with similar text size, and that is on the consoles too. It most assuredly is more useable than something seen in skyrim and I have had no issue reading such text sizes. However, I do sympathise that text size can be an issue for some depending on eye sight, and distance etc so options are useful for them but would break a UI system designed with such use ability in mind
But again that isn't the purpose. It's a console like experience ie a turn key solution for those who want to specifically play PC gaming but are not interested in building their own or setting things up.
PC gaming naturally also concerns what you would deem as console gaming. You make the assumption that the steam controller WILL be terrible with all manner of console type games (which I assume you define as third person games FpS and alike), when not only has that yet to be seen in a final version of the controller that also hasn't been seen or demonstrated, they specifically outline their goal as having the controller be capable of such experiences. I'll certainly wait and see, because frankly all of this talk is meaningless having not used the controller to determine that.
And what's with the fixation of switching abxy positions when the whole controller set is rebindable anyway? The majority of people have been using the 360 as the defacto controller for PC games and as such they are used to that layout. It makes sense to stick with that from that perspective
Noisepurge
Member
oh the PC version doesn't support any pads? damn :/
I disagree about its purpose. I think that it's clearly a venture to draw *new* people in more than it is to supplement the current userbase's hardware.
I also never said that it was terrible. At first I said that I wasn't sure that it was the best configuration to go with and maybe not optimal. That does not mean terrible and is a horrible twisting of what I said. I changed my mind after thinking about it more and then said that I thought it was probably the best compromise for most people with leaving the d-pad off and that it would be a very good controller for a hell of a lot of games. I have no clue how you got "terrible" out of any of my posts.
The X/Y and A/B fixation is this - when you play games with most current controllers the A/X buttons are the most used because they are the closest to the right stick and the most accessible. With the Steam Controller the Y/B buttons are the closest to the right trackpad, which is the wrong way to do it.
You want them setup by default to be like the WiiU Gamepad and WiiU Pro Controller which has a layout like the Stream Controller. The X/Y and A/B are swapped so that the A/X buttons are by the right sticks on those controllers. It's a pretty simple, yet quite important thing. Yes, you could remap stuff, but you want your Default configuration to be the most comfortable setting. Having the A/X *not* be by the right trackpad would in essence not be like the X360 controller layout at all.
Candescence
Member
Though, really, it seems A/X function of being the 'primary' face buttons have mostly been replaced by the LG and RG buttons anyway, because you're always gonna have your fingers on those.
Dr_Boris_Goltz
Banned
Those squeeze triggers are genius.
RicoTheMad
Banned
I don't get all the hate people are throwing at the controller for *adding* a thumbstick. The left pad is still there, I played games with it, movement sorely needed a thumbstick, period.
The left pad can be used for platformers but the input doesn't feel as good as a stick to me. For fighting games you NEED a stick, the pad would definitely not cut it by any stretch, it's not easy enough to use because unlike a dpad you don't have raised buttons so clicking on it like it's a d-pad, while it works, is harder because there's no raised surface telling you where the right/left/up/down is. The tactile feedback isn't there which at least personally, throws if off for me.
The two back triggers are digital inputs not analog, which I hope they will later change. Analog triggers let you do a lot of cool things we simply can't do with Mouse and Keyboard and it's one of the few things missing from the platform that I feel could be added now.
Regarding the use of the pad as a Mouse and Keyboard replacement (which is the intent): It does the job well. I have gone and made changed in the Steambox OS when mine broke with one of their updates early on and the wi-fi drivers got nuked and I never once plugged in a mouse to do it. As far as games are concerned it works pretty well, but requires a bit of training for your hands since you need to get used to how the pad itself works (acceleration, different mouse speeds depending on the ring you're on).
Having used the controller a few times already my wish list is this:
1) Customizable sensitivity/mouse acceleration outside of games
2) Analog triggers
3) Pipe dream: ability to swap in/out a thumbstick on the right side for people who like twin stick controls for shooters and action games.
That's pretty much all I feel is missing now.
The left pad can be used for platformers but the input doesn't feel as good as a stick to me. For fighting games you NEED a stick, the pad would definitely not cut it by any stretch, it's not easy enough to use because unlike a dpad you don't have raised buttons so clicking on it like it's a d-pad, while it works, is harder because there's no raised surface telling you where the right/left/up/down is. The tactile feedback isn't there which at least personally, throws if off for me.
The two back triggers are digital inputs not analog, which I hope they will later change. Analog triggers let you do a lot of cool things we simply can't do with Mouse and Keyboard and it's one of the few things missing from the platform that I feel could be added now.
Regarding the use of the pad as a Mouse and Keyboard replacement (which is the intent): It does the job well. I have gone and made changed in the Steambox OS when mine broke with one of their updates early on and the wi-fi drivers got nuked and I never once plugged in a mouse to do it. As far as games are concerned it works pretty well, but requires a bit of training for your hands since you need to get used to how the pad itself works (acceleration, different mouse speeds depending on the ring you're on).
Having used the controller a few times already my wish list is this:
1) Customizable sensitivity/mouse acceleration outside of games
2) Analog triggers
3) Pipe dream: ability to swap in/out a thumbstick on the right side for people who like twin stick controls for shooters and action games.
That's pretty much all I feel is missing now.
The Cowboy
Member
Something very similar was done already, the Razer sabertooth controller has grip/squeeze triggers. It is kinda weird they never caught on earlier, due to how you hold a game pad - it just seems so obvious to but a button/trigger in that location.
ashecitism
Member
Pretty sure the revision before this already had analog triggers, which iirc could also function as digital. You haven't tried that one, right? You only have the first version?
edit:
http://forums.blackmesasource.com/showpost.php?p=574824&postcount=276
The impression I get from people who've tried the controller is that trackpads aren't ideal for controlling movement due to the relatively long travel distance and lack of recentering.
Well, nice of Valve to admit that the trackpads simply aren't better than an analog stick for movement, otherwise why not provide one on the right too. This controller continues to be worse than every alternative at what it provides (having used it for a significant amount of time, I'm sure).
Jokes aside, after all this talk, I would find it hilarious if it isn't an analogue stick and is just some sort of HAT switch
RicoTheMad
Banned
Oh nice, they updated them to be analog? Yeah I only have the very first revision of it sitting at my house.
Edit: Just ready he whole link post, I'm disappointed they aren't including rumble. From what I had remembered I felt like they said it was coming later, but maybe I'm remembering wrong.
Add Rumble to my list of wants :-/
ashecitism
Member
what's a hat switch?
4- or 8-way digital directional switch, the kind you find on flight sticks. Could theoretically be used as the functional equivalent of a d-pad or arcade stick, though they're usually a little small and not ideally shaped.
They used to be on old joysticks, like an 8 way or 4 way nub that has a very short distance of travel. I can't imagine them being too useful because they are usually small, but if you were to make one for a different purpose.... maybe it would work
Only because I saw you complaining about people attempting to use a controller for Divinity in the Steam forums. It seemed offensive to you.
Hey man, my mouse won't work in the living room and I can't use the PC in my bedroom after 10pm with a newborn in there. It's either a controller or no divinity for me. I assume this solution will be better than a wireless kb with a touchpad, but it's taking a hell of a lot longer than I expected to get to market. Maybe I'll just buy that damn logitech keyboard already.
SaggyMonkey
Member
Are there still directional click-in buttons under the track pads? The new diagram doesn't show them.
ashecitism
Member
Yeah, pretty sure the pads function the same since v1.