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[ItWasMeantToBe19]

Paris (AFP) - Far-right presidential candidate Marine Le Pen denied Sunday that the French state was responsible for the wartime round-up of Jews at a Paris cycling track who were then sent to Nazi death camps.

Former President Jacques Chirac and current leader Francois Hollande have both apologised for the role French police played in the round-up of more than 13,000 Jews at the Vel d'Hiv cycling track which was ordered by Nazi officers in 1942.

But Le Pen told the LCI television channel on Sunday: "I don't think France is responsible for the Vel d'Hiv."

She added: "I think that generally speaking if there are people responsible, it's those who were in power at the time. It's not France."

The leader of the National Front (FN) party said France had "taught our children that they have all the reasons to criticise (the country), and to only see, perhaps, the darkest aspects of our history".

"So, I want them to be proud of being French again," she said.

"If we remind people of our actual history collaborating in the Holocaust, it will be hard for us to be super nationalistic!" is not good phrasing.

Le Pen Senior, who founded the FN in 1972 and is estranged from his daughter, has been convicted repeatedly for anti-Semitic and racist comments such as calling the Holocaust a "detail of history".

Daddy's little girl.

Le Pen defended her broadcast comments in a statement issued late Sunday.

"I consider that France and the Republic were based in London during the (Nazi) occupation," she said.

The British capital was where Charles de Gaulle, the leader of the free French forces, lived in exile during World War II while France's Vichy regime collaborated with Nazi Germany.

"The Vichy regime was not France," Le Pen said in her statement, describing the wartime authority as "illegal".

She added that this in no way exonerated those who participated in "the vile roundup of Vel d'Hiv and all the atrocities committed during that period".

https://www.yahoo.com/news/le-pen-says-france-not-responsible-wwii-jew-183420366.html

No one is surprised, I know.

 

[Hypron]

She and her whole party absolutely disgust me.

Just a bunch of cowards who can't take responsibility for anything.

 

[sphagnum]

Interesting spin on her part. That would be like if the far right in the US disavowed teaching about the CSA because "that wasn't really America!"

 

[patapuf]

In better times this would have completely tanked her election chances.

People really don't like being reminded how shitty humanity (and their own country) can be. It's already been 60 years after all.

 

[daviyoung]

She'd be a really shitty nationalist if she thought her country had flaws worth advertising to other countries

 

[Alx]

She added: "I think that generally speaking if there are people responsible, it's those who were in power at the time. It's not France."

Someone should have asked her "so if you become president, you'll only be the person responsible, you wouldn't be representing France ?".
That (lack of) reasoning is just absurd, "things of the past I like are from France, things I don't like (or don't want to openly support) are from the stupid people in charge, nothing to do with France".
Our history is what it is, for better or worse. Embrace all of it or none of it.

 

[danm999]

It's always fun when nationalists glob on to all the nice stuff about their people but when some of the nasty stuff comes up it's all like "nononoono not that that wasn't us".

 

[Miles Quaritch]

I'm starting to get the feeling that a number of countries wish they could do what the US does on a regular basis and just ignore their past atrocities.

We're somewhat there in the UK...

 

[patapuf]

I'm starting to get the feeling that a number of countries wish they could do what the US does on a regular basis and just ignore their past atrocities.

We're somewhat there in the UK...

I think that's most countries though.

Not many are willing to do what germany did. In general, people like to think of themselves as the good guys

 

[Miles Quaritch]

I think that's most countries though.

Not many are willing to do what germany did. In general, people like to think of themselves as the good guys

I feel most of them used to offer a more nuanced position on their history and their actions, while at the end trying to push the 'we were eventually the good guys' narrative.

I was taught all about Neville Chamberlain and his attempts at appeasement, just as I was taught about how racist Churchill was. I wonder if those things are still being taught in schools or if they've regressed to just the UK entering WW2 and helping to save Europe.

 

[AGoodODST]

I'm starting to get the feeling that a number of countries wish they could do what the US does on a regular basis and just ignore their past atrocities.

We're somewhat there in the UK...

Somewhat? Lol

 

[oldboss]

Theeeeeeere it is. Jean-Marine!

I hate that cunt with a passion.

 

[Principate]

I feel most of them used to offer a more nuanced position on their history and their actions, while at the end trying to push the 'we were eventually the good guys' narrative.

I was taught all about Neville Chamberlain and his attempts at appeasement, just as I was taught about how racist Churchill was. I wonder if those things are still being taught in schools or if they've regressed to just the UK entering WW2 and helping to save Europe.

We were taught that so maybe we have. Though I'm pretty sure one of our teachers was a nationalist. Granted this wss just to GCSE level so maybe they didn't have time to go into depth about the British side.

 

[Mael]

Of course she would now say that the real French government wasn't in Vichy when her party was founded by people who were up Laval's ass like the shits they were.
Fuck you for not recognizing the legacy you are the very direct vestigial worm.

 

[VAD]

Bu bu but... I thought the Front National was respectable now... Hope she gets sued for this.

 

[Ac30]

Bu bu but... I thought the Front National was respectable now... Hope she gets sued for this.

I mean she's not denying the holocaust took place. Progress!

Also

"So, I want them to be proud of being French again," she said.

When did this affect the above? Acknowledging your own country's mistakes means you hate it. Class Fascist nonsense.

 

[Jumeira]

Mental gymnastics on an unprecedented scale. Gosh

 

[Alx]

Bu bu but... I thought the Front National was respectable now... Hope she gets sued for this.

Unfortunately she won't face any legal issue about it (and since she's a lawyer like so many leaders of the FN, she's probably well aware of that).
There's some judiciary loophole, coming from the fact that the "Regime de Vichy" (temporary French government during WWII) hasn't been recognized as an official government, so that all the laws it wrote could be rejected as a whole, and that the "real" French government was in London at that time (which is a bit far-fetched, especially since there wasn't much legitimacy to it either).
Anyway it's just legal stuff, it doesn't change anything on the French moral responsibility of what happened during the "occupation", even if it wasn't "the French Republic".

 

[YourMaster]

I'm not burdened by any actual knowledge of the French situation in WWII,... but on face value it doesn't seem so strange what she says.

If Germany occupied French, and installed a puppet government to oversee the occupation in general or the deportation of jews in particular then it seems fair to blame Germany, not France.
When large parts of the population were happy to assist, then it's a different story. And if the French police went beyond what was needed to survive, then yes an apology for their role is in order. That still puts the blame on the French police, not on France as a whole.

 

[FDC1]

Mental gymnastics on an unprecedented scale. Gosh

Unprecedented ? That was pretty much the official version of the French State until 1995.

 

[Mael]

I'm not burdened by any actual knowledge of the French situation in WWII,... but on face value it doesn't seem so strange what she says.

If Germany occupied French, and installed a puppet government to oversee the occupation in general or the deportation of jews in particular then it seems fair to blame Germany, not France.
When large parts of the population were happy to assist, then it's a different story. And if the French police went beyond what was needed to survive, then yes an apology for their role is in order. That still puts the blame on the French police, not on France as a whole.

That's the thing though, the Vichy government had the mandate of the French Republic.
The representatives voted and had Petain as head of state.
French police went above and beyond what was needed, as did the SNCF (the company that is still apologizing for this).
The responsability is most certainly Petain's and his government.
The police certainly shouldn't shield the state from blame on this despicable act.
If there is reason to feel shame for the worst acts of our country it is because there are reasons to be proud.
If you eraze the shame you can never be proud of the country you so desperately wish to be proud of.

 

[IrishNinja]

trash

france, you've watched the UK & US take L's, get right

 

[Palette Swap]

That's the thing though, the Vichy government had the mandate of the French Republic.
The representatives voted and had Petain as head of state.
French police went above and beyond what was needed, as did the SNCF (the company that is still apologizing for this).
The responsability is most certainly Petain's and his government.
The police certainly shouldn't shield the state from blame on this despicable act.
If there is reason to feel shame for the worst acts of our country it is because there are reasons to be proud.
If you eraze the shame you can never be proud of the country you so desperately wish to be proud of.

That's a great summary. Nationalism à la carte is as hypocritical as it is despicable. You can't learn anything from past mistakes if you don't accept they were part of your society in the first place. If collaborationism wasn't French, neither was the Resistance then.

But yeah, that's unsurprising from a party that had SS and Militians as founding members. While she handwaves the nation's crimes, she equally washes away the ashes and bones her mound of shit was built on.

 

[JonnyDBrit]

I honestly don't get this whole idea of 'we can only be proud of our country if we ignore every bad thing it's done'. Like, if your national pride and identity is that fragile, I'm not sure how much worth it really has.

 

[Auctopus]

I'm starting to get the feeling that a number of countries wish they could do what the US does on a regular basis and just ignore their past atrocities.

We're somewhat there in the UK...

Our government won't acknowledge what services it cut last week, nevermind decades ago.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

I'm not burdened by any actual knowledge of the French situation in WWII,... but on face value it doesn't seem so strange what she says.

If Germany occupied French, and installed a puppet government to oversee the occupation in general or the deportation of jews in particular then it seems fair to blame Germany, not France.
When large parts of the population were happy to assist, then it's a different story. And if the French police went beyond what was needed to survive, then yes an apology for their role is in order. That still puts the blame on the French police, not on France as a whole.

Germany didn't install a puppet government, per se. After it became apparent that the Battle of France had been lost, the French Cabinet was split over whether to offer armistice to Germany to prevent the complete and utter devastation of France. On the one side, the British were urging the French to refuse any armistice and continue guerrilla war; on the other, senior figures in the French cabinet just wanted the destruction to be minimal given France had already lost - why drag things out? The existing Prime Minister was unable to find support to refuse the armistice, and had to resign.

Pétain was appointed in his place, and signed the armistice splitting France between an occupied zone and a zone continuing to be under the control of the Third Republic. The first thing to note that he is already in place prior to the armistice, not as a result of it. A figure who was not Pétain could have been selected (although in some fairness at this point, he was a national hero due to WWI and it wasn't clear what would play out from this point, so this at least is perhaps forgivable). Germany accepted this armistice even though up until 1942 it give the continuing French state a relative degree of independence in the south of France, because it was less costly then having to fight the guerrilla warfare suggested by the British and some continuing French statesmen. So the second thing to note is that Pétain was not only not put in place as a puppet, he was not a full puppet even after the armistice, and retained at least some choices over his actions.

Pétain then called a vote to give himself effectively complete power over this continuing French state. This vote may have been technically illegal, but it passed the French parliament in a landslide. So that's the third thing to note: this was not part of the armistice or a condition enforced by Germany; it a conscious political decision by the majority of French political representatives at the time, and they had the ability to do otherwise.

That then formed the bedrock of the power that Pétain exercised as a collaborator with Germany - even if he saw collaboration as a way to prevent Germany humiliating France further. So there were opportunities to do otherwise that France's representatives chose not take, and instead they chose to sacrifice the most vulnerable among them to protect their most cowardly. It is very much something that France has to be ashamed of, and this is why most modern French politicians acknowledge it and have apologised for it. By ignoring this, Le Pen is de facto apologising for the Vichy regime's actions. That's not a surprise, the Front National has long defended Pétain.

 

[Atolm]

So she's like her father after all.

 

[capitalCORN]

Jesus fucking Christ. Nationalism won't shut up about the 'foreign hordes', but God forbid a speck of dirt land on their Lilly white souls.

 

[ultratruman]

Comforting lies, that's all her kind offer.

 

[Mael]

So she's like her father after all.

Until she herself manages to torture some brown people, she's not there just yet.

 

[WedgeX]

What a coward.

 

[Sulik2]

So French GAF what are the chances she wins?

 

[Vincent Grayson]

I wondered why my friend who seems to like all of the worst politicians was posting stuff about her the other day. I guess now I know.

 

[Holden]

So French GAF what are the chances she wins?

Very low. Vastly lower than brexit/trump polls showed

 

[Kurdel]

I'm not burdened by any actual knowledge of the French situation in WWII,... but on face value it doesn't seem so strange what she says.

If Germany occupied French, and installed a puppet government to oversee the occupation in general or the deportation of jews in particular then it seems fair to blame Germany, not France.
When large parts of the population were happy to assist, then it's a different story. And if the French police went beyond what was needed to survive, then yes an apology for their role is in order. That still puts the blame on the French police, not on France as a whole.

Glad to see you are more ready to speculate about why Le Pen would be right then "burden" yourself with knowledge.

 

[Arkeband]

The extremes I've seen people go to to explain her comments is surreal. Like, even if she WAS "misunderstood", what drives these people to even say things in the same neighborhood as this? It's mind boggling.

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

I'm not burdened by any actual knowledge of the French situation in WWII,... but on face value it doesn't seem so strange what she says.

If Germany occupied French, and installed a puppet government to oversee the occupation in general or the deportation of jews in particular then it seems fair to blame Germany, not France.
When large parts of the population were happy to assist, then it's a different story. And if the French police went beyond what was needed to survive, then yes an apology for their role is in order. That still puts the blame on the French police, not on France as a whole.

There was no difficulty finding collaborators in France. There were even French volunteer formations fighting against the Soviets. There's a sort of De Gaul myth where everyone was resisting, passively or actively except for a few traitors. The reality was much more complex and there were far more people willing to embrace and work with the Germans than many at the time felt comfortable admitting. More nuanced histories took time to emerge and nationalists like the more romantic version.

 

[Mael]

and just so we're all on the level here.
There was basically 2 tiers of PoS during the occupation :
- the 'collaborateurs' who did as they were told in hope of pleasing the Nazis so that they could be left alone. don't particularly believe in the whole supremacy shit, cannot really any issue than leave with it and be as cowardly as possible.
- the 'collaborationists', these are the real deal PoS. They are the hardcore that not only will do as the Nazis want but is fully supportive and would gladly make the Nazi dream a reality.

FN was formed by holdovers of the latter ones that managed to survive the purges.
It's also the latter ones that formed what we call the 'Milices', it's also what French people think when they hear the term militia. If you want to know why they don't see paramilitary militias as a good thing, I'll let you guess why.

And as for who organized this? It wasn't something that only police organized, it was part of what the Petain government 'offered' to the Germans.
So the whole 'they didn't know, it was only the police' is an even bigger fairy tale than Bleach's fucking ending being done on Kubo's term!

There was no difficulty finding collaborators in France. There were even French volunteer formations fighting against the Soviets. There's a sort of De Gaul myth where everyone was resisting, passively or actively except for a few traitors. The reality was much more complex and there were far more people willing to embrace and work with the Germans than many at the time felt comfortable admitting. More nuanced histories took time to emerge and nationalists like the more romantic version.

More people heard Petain's call than DeGaulle at the aftermath of France's defeat.
DeGaulle was nice and all but he wasn't the hero of Verdun.
If anyone is actually interested, just open old newspapers of that time and see what the media landscape was like.
All resistants my ass.

 

[YourMaster]

Glad to see you are more ready to speculate about why Le Pen would be right then "burden" yourself with knowledge.

Well, I learned a lot more from the information "Crab" provided as a reply to my post, than all of the post above mine combined.
But if it stops your knickers from going in a bunch, feel free to reread my post as 'Could you all please provide some information on why this statement is incorrect and/or offensive'.

 

[Derwind]

Every society and nation has at the very least some skeletons in the closet, to deny or revise history because it makes you uncomfortable is really disturbing to me.

As a Canadian, I love the hokey, good natured view of the countrys history that some Canadians have until they actually take a deeper look and realize how many atrocities it actually took to build this Nation.

Acknowledging the past, especially the brutal bits, allows us as a society to avoid making those same mistakes.

National pride should be taken with equal measures of humility and self reflection.

 

[Kurdel]

Well, I learned a lot more from the information "Crab" provided as a reply to my post, than all of the post above mine combined.
But if it stops your knickers from going in a bunch, feel free to reread my post as 'Could you all please provide some information on why this statement is incorrect and/or offensive'.

I am sorry, it's just the combination of you declaring you know nothing about the situation before speculating why a fascist might be right was a bad look to me.

 

[Mael]

I am sorry, it's just the combination of you declaring you know nothing about the situation before speculating why a fascist might be right was a bad look to me.

Also the fact that even a quick glance at wiki would be enough to dispell any doubt on the matter...
I guess reading is hard these days.

 

[YourMaster]

I am sorry, it's just the combination of you declaring you know nothing about the situation before speculating why a fascist might be right was a bad look to me.

It is such a mindset that supports and breeds fascism. I think it's obvious that when you declare you don't know anything about a subject that you are open to learn about it. Ignorance is usually only a problem when it is wielded by people who think they know it all.

And beyond that, even if Le Pen would be personally murdering Jews and eating babies on a daily basis, that would still not make it impossible for her to be right about some other subjects. And people who you do support and are generally right or decent are also not immune to make very bad decisions or hold some particular awful views. The truth is always important, and it is important to remember that.

 

[Kurdel]

It is such a mindset that supports and breeds fascism.

Yes, expecting people to be informed about context before open speculation is the real fascism.

I am not surprised to see you double down and defend Marine Le Pen.

Forgive me if it offends you, but it reminds me of poeple just asking questions during gamergate.

You have the entire Internet to read up and be informed, instead you chose to keep a position of "ignorance", yet defend the person saying shitty things because zhe "may" be right one day.

 

[Mael]

It is such a mindset that supports and breeds fascism. I think it's obvious that when you declare you don't know anything about a subject that you are open to learn about it. Ignorance is usually only a problem when it is wielded by people who think they know it all.

And beyond that, even if Le Pen would be personally murdering Jews and eating babies on a daily basis, that would still not make it impossible for her to be right about some other subjects. And people who you do support and are generally right or decent are also not immune to make very bad decisions or hold some particular awful views. The truth is always important, and it is important to remember that.

Are we going to entertain notions that are akin to 'Hitler made the the sanitation system in Bonn so he's not bad'?
Don't be lazy, it's not a historical event that is so obscure no ever heard of it.
If we make a topic discussing the impact of Pol Pot I don't think it's unreasonable to expect people interacting in that topic to actually know a little and not spread BS like it's Trump steak season.
We can do better and you can too.
And what LePen said was grade A organic BS, the kind where the bull has been grass fed for a long time and can run for days in dedicated pasture.
It absolutely was France's fault for the deportation and the roundup of Jews at the time.
If you want to not be dogpiled on that subject you better come up with a better defense than "what if she's right though!"

 

[YourMaster]

Yes, expecting people to be informed about context before open speculation is the real fascism.

I am not surprised to see you double down and defend Marine Le Pen.

Forgive me if it offends you, but it reminds me of poeple just asking questions during gamergate.

You have the entire Internet to read up and be informed, instead you chose to keep a position of "ignorance", yet defend the person saying shitty things because zhe "may" be right one day.

I'm not defending her at all. I'm completely satisfied by the explanation I got above, by several people, on why this statement was wrong.
The 'open speculation' is a clarification on why the statement sounded reasonable to me, which allowed people to explain and convince me on why this statement is wrong.

And yes, shuffling people in some corner because they remind you of something you dislike and trying to see all statements into a certain light without caring for the truth is a mindset that breaths fascism.
Just like wanting to disqualify any statement of a person who is generally wrong, or accepting any statement of a person who is generally right.

Are we going to entertain notions that are akin to 'Hitler made the the sanitation system in Bonn so he's not bad'?
If you want to not be dogpiled on that subject you better come up with a better defense than "what if she's right though!"

No. There's a difference in saying 'Hitler made roads so he isn't all bad' and saying 'Hitler was a vegetarian so all vegetarians must be evil'. Doing something right does not excuse doing something bad (especially not if it is orders of magnitude worse), but being an evil asshole does not make each and every single statement wrong.

And I did not feel dogpiled at all, I feel I learned a lot about the particulars of the situation in France during WWII, and just the one person who took offense in me wanting to know what was wrong with that statement instead of just blindly accepting that because Le Pen said it, it must be wrong. I'm happy I asked.

 

[Quixzlizx]

I feel most of them used to offer a more nuanced position on their history and their actions, while at the end trying to push the 'we were eventually the good guys' narrative.

I was taught all about Neville Chamberlain and his attempts at appeasement, just as I was taught about how racist Churchill was. I wonder if those things are still being taught in schools or if they've regressed to just the UK entering WW2 and helping to save Europe.

It sounds like the UK is ignoring their past atrocities if Neville Chamberlain's appeasement is the worst thing you could think of.

The UK's body count dwarfs the US', even if you start from the founding of the US.

 

[Kurdel]

And yes, shuffling people in some corner because they remind you of something you dislike and trying to see all statements into a certain light without caring for the truth is a mindset that breaths fascism.

Like I said, I don't mind someone who has an opinion or even people who speculate out of lack of knowledge.

It's just that when that mental exercise is done to see the other side of the coin that some reprehensible human is trying to argue for, it seems like a waste of time or brainpower when you can just read about it yourself.

 

[Alx]

There was no difficulty finding collaborators in France. There were even French volunteer formations fighting against the Soviets. There's a sort of De Gaul myth where everyone was resisting, passively or actively except for a few traitors. The reality was much more complex and there were far more people willing to embrace and work with the Germans than many at the time felt comfortable admitting. More nuanced histories took time to emerge and nationalists like the more romantic version.

There's also a reason why the de Gaulle myth existed. In 1944, the whole country had to be reunited and rebuilt, and that wouldn't have been possible if everybody started suspecting the others of being a former vichyist or "collabo". De Gaulle didn't sweep those years under the rug out of compassion for all those who called him a traitor all along, but because (in his opinion) it was needed for the sake of the country.
Now a few decades later, it made sense to set things straight, which Chirac did in 1995 (it would have been awkward for Mitterrand to do it, since he's been suspected of being a former supporter of Pétain).

 

[Mael]

No. There's a difference in saying 'Hitler made roads so he isn't all bad' and saying 'Hitler was a vegetarian so all vegetarians must be evil'. Doing something right does not excuse doing something bad (especially not if it is orders of magnitude worse), but being an evil asshole does not make each and every single statement wrong.

There's nothing right or wrong in being a vegetarian in 1930.
Being an evil asshole makes every statement regarding a 'controversial' situation suspect though, there's no reason to give the benefit of the doubt at all.
LePen is the daughter of the guy who said that gas chambers weren't a big deal (if they even happened at all).
Literally nothing she will ever say about WWII will ever not appear suspiciously like shitty apologia because of how much she and her people did it before.
This is another example of why they're small minded pieces of shit.

And I did not feel dogpiled at all, I feel I learned a lot about the particulars of the situation in France during WWII, and just the one person who took offense in me wanting to know what was wrong with that statement instead of just blindly accepting that because Le Pen said it, it must be wrong. I'm happy I asked.

Again if you see a statement about how 'it wasn't so bad' and it's related to WWII, there's a chance it's BS of the highest order if it's not sourced properly.
If you don't see air tight sources, don't dip in shitty conspiracy theories.