Learning Japanese |OT| ..honor and shame are huge parts of it. Let's!

For people doing whiteboard just wanna say, it's really important to keep reading and listening on the regular. Your vocab will explode at a faster rate. And what Spork said in the last thread: once you're done, replace your Eng hobbies with JPN hobbies - don't become a weeb. But if you play games, play the Japanese version. Watch Japanese TV shows without subs etc. read Japanese news and books if you would do that anyway. While it has been passive, and while not all the vocab will be practical, playing Dark Souls 3 in Japanese was fun as hell and exposed me to a lot of new words. Walking into a new area and seeing 尻 written everywhere helps make those non-reg Kanji stick ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
 
Resilient said:
For people doing whiteboard just wanna say, it's really important to keep reading and listening on the regular. Your vocab will explode at a faster rate. And what Spork said in the last thread: once you're done, replace your Eng hobbies with JPN hobbies - don't become a weeb. But if you play games, play the Japanese version. Watch Japanese TV shows without subs etc. read Japanese news and books if you would do that anyway. While it has been passive, and while not all the vocab will be practical, playing Dark Souls 3 in Japanese was fun as hell and exposed me to a lot of new words. Walking into a new area and seeing 尻 written everywhere helps make those non-reg Kanji stick ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
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Shiri is a regular kanji for me though. Oh yes.
 
for real though. business, economic and political articles tend to use the same vocabulary. read them enough and the words will stick in no time. Just a PSA, don't put it aside. I regret not reading more while I did it.
 
Zefah said:
I don't think I knew you went to Sophia! I did a year of study abroad there in 2006. That was actually why I wanted to get the JLPT 1 so badly. They wouldn't let me take classes in Japanese without it.

I'm self-taught in the sense I didn't major in Japanese or take a bunch of courses in university, but I owe most of my ability to the friends I made in college and beyond. I also managed to visit the country early on in my studies for a couple of months, and they really gave me a good start that I was able to build off of with the local Japanese student population at my school. Of course I studied a ton, too, but I don't think I would be where I am today without the community I was able to join.
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I believe I was 2002..3? I did my school's extended business program so all classes were in English by foreign professors at Ichigaya but specifically about Japanese corporate structure/culture. Like a mini expat training program. I've def posted about going to Jyouchi before, nothing special.
 
Nah, I've read countless soapstones while playing that just read 尻。It's the only thing I've been able to read!

There are a lot of 遺体、遺灰 and 遺骨 tho.
 
Resilient said:
Nah, I've read countless soapstones while playing that just read 尻。It's the only thing I've been able to read!

There are a lot of 遺体、遺灰 and 遺骨 tho.
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舌を使え　でも　穴
 
Oh, great thread.

I started learning japanese last year. I'm self-studying it, but I do have help from 3 different friends who already know the language for quite some time. I plan to enter some class eventually, though - self-studying can be a pain to get motivation sometimes. I used to study daily, but haven't done so regularly for the last 6 weeks due to a complicated period in college.

And I want to add something to the Kanji discussion: Yeah, Kanji is the hardest part of the language and it's a pain in the ass most of the time, but it's also the most rewarding part of learning japanese, imo. Looking up something in japanese and recognizing some kanji in it is very satisfying in a different way from just knowing the meaning of a word. Plus it also greatly helps in building up vocabulary.
 
Resilient said:
Nah, I've read countless soapstones while playing that just read 尻。It's the only thing I've been able to read!

There are a lot of 遺体、遺灰 and 遺骨 tho.
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Yeah, usually in Dark Souls, 尻 is referring to backstabs. You'll see a lot of 「弱点は尻」 and things like that too.
 
Wow...thanks Aeana. I thought it was weird (but funny) seeing lone messages that just said 尻...that makes a lot of sense. Thanks; I should really look further into words/sentences that seem weird like that. Context..

Edit: http://youtu.be/heVilN8L0L0 now...I'm not sure sure
 
Jintor said:
I think the student route is a good route if you can swing it. Too easy to bubble on the ALT route and the work stuff often demands quick, precise communication in English to workmates just for time efficiency sake, and of course you should be trying to speak English to the kids.

I'll see if I can join in other classes... need more vocab study first...
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English bubble? You mean hanging out with other foreigners? I basically dropped them the minute I met them - lol. I still see them at meetings and shit, but I never hang with them outside of that. Not that I'm missing much. They just go to the same shitty gaijin holes with all the other ALTs every damn weekday and weekend it seems. Who cares about them.

I'm the only ALT at my school and the Japanese English teachers speak pretty bad English. I actually get to teach grammar at JHS 3rd grade level, which I wasn't expecting. Weirdly, I teach less the lower the years I go. During lunch and stuff I speak to the kids in Japanese. They're super shy and they can't even speak the most basic English (I've only been there a few days!) so why put them through the pressure of not being able to understand or respond in English.
 
's part of it, but I was thinking more, like, home living situation by oneself can very easily create an environment where you 'relax' in english. as my ability has gone up I've been 'relaxing' more by... well, studying, I guess. But before that, well.

I would have appreciated some kind of homestay or dormstay, any kind of situation where I had more impetus to think/speak more in Japanese
 
I'm an expert said:
I suppose I can use this as a chance to re-introduce myself and comment a bit.

I was introduced to the language through the early 90s when importing games from the back of video game magazines in America. Then I got into the fansubbing scene. Throughout all of that I had zero interaction with native Japanese people except through very random internet experiences. This was early internet days so there weren't any resources back then like there are now. I didn't formally begin to study the language until early 2000, but even then just from all the years of media consumption I was clearly above beginner. Then I did a year abroad at Sophia. Then I came back and realized that I would never become proficient from simply continuing school studies. Then I did my 3 month pass JLPT intensive study (found in the op).

So basically I had like 6 years of informal Japanese study, about 2 years of university and even study abroad experience, and even then I felt I was barely intermediate. I think all of those years gave me a huge advantage in terms of understanding the culture and the 'method' of Japanese, but I didn't grasp the technical aspect.

After those 3 months of study, I was basically never the same again. In those 3 months I made the past 8 years meaningless. There is a very huge difference between passively consuming shit like games or anime for years, and actually treating study as a job and treating it with respect.

I guess my point is, spending ~8 hours a day for 3 months in my room was the hyperbolic time chamber and I came out of there able to communicate in ways I never knew I could. I obviously wasn't super advanced or fluent or whatever metric you want to use, but I pretty much secured my future and career from the abilities I learned in those 3 months. Meaning I could clearly pass a corporate Japanese interview with no prior work/interview experience in Japan just from my self-study.

Short answer to your question: It's very, very doable but you really, really have to work for it.
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Thank you!
 
I'm an expert said:
I guess the real question is why do you want to get conversationally good?
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I've always wanted to live in Japan, though it seems that will never come true, but! I visited Japan last November for the first time. Amazing experience but I bet it would've been even better if I knew basic things. I plan to visit many many more times.

I've always tried to look for some Japanese classes here in Puerto Rico but there was no one. Recently found out they were giving 1 class near me so I went there today as a visitor. Professor still doesn't know if he will give the class again after this one ends but he's thinking about it. It's conversational Japanese and unfortunately he is using a lot of romaji (though maybe that will change afterwards). He does know a lot though, even Kanji (he lived there for a few years).

Edit: Just bought Genki, Japanese in 10 minutes a day and Japanese for Busy people. I already learned my hiraganas and currently working with my katakana. Kanji just seems like a very hard goal to reach.
 
KillGore said:
I've always wanted to live in Japan, though it seems that will never come true, but! I visited Japan last November for the first time. Amazing experience but I bet it would've been even better if I knew basic things. I plan to visit many many more times.

I've always tried to look for some Japanese classes here in Puerto Rico but there was no one. Recently found out they were giving 1 class near me so I went there today as a visitor. Professor still doesn't know if he will give the class again after this one ends but he's thinking about it. It's conversational Japanese and unfortunately he is using a lot of romaji (though maybe that will change afterwards). He does know a lot though, even Kanji (he lived there for a few years).

Edit: Just bought Genki, Japanese in 10 minutes a day and Japanese for Busy people. I already learned my hiraganas and currently working with my katakana. Kanji just seems like a very hard goal to reach.
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Kanjis aren't hard they just take a lot of time to learn. Once you find a method that works to learn 10 you can learn another 100 and then 1000 and on. Doing it daily works well.
 
Yeah, it really surprised me how easy it can be to learn kanji once I started taking it seriously. It's not as scary of a wall as it looks, sure it will take a while, but if you keep at your reviews everyday there is nothing to worry about.
 
Rutger said:
Yeah, it really surprised me how easy it can be to learn kanji once I started taking it seriously. It's not as scary of a wall as it looks, sure it will take a while, but if you keep at your reviews everyday there is nothing to worry about.
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I am by no means proficient in Japanese but I think the main thing about language learning is the amount of time. It really requires patience. This isn't like programming and you learn a language in a semester. It is a slow drip of accumulated experience until you reach proficiency. It was a change in mindset for me, over time. I don't stress about my progress now. I just learn a few words everyday, do some practice and let the process take its course.
 
Zefah said:
I don't think I knew you went to Sophia! I did a year of study abroad there in 2006. That was actually why I wanted to get the JLPT 1 so badly. They wouldn't let me take classes in Japanese without it.

I'm self-taught in the sense I didn't major in Japanese or take a bunch of courses in university, but I owe most of my ability to the friends I made in college and beyond. I also managed to visit the country early on in my studies for a couple of months, and they really gave me a good start that I was able to build off of with the local Japanese student population at my school. Of course I studied a ton, too, but I don't think I would be where I am today without the community I was able to join.
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lol, for some reason I had in my head that Sophia was an all girls university. I don't think they have that JLPT requirement anymore, at least not for exchange.
 
I'm going to start looking into Japanese to English freelance translation jobs more seriously I think.

I have N1 and a few years experience doing translation at my last two companies, but I definitely still feel like a newbie to the language and the craft.

I think it'll be good motivation to get into studying Japanese more again.

I'm mainly posting to make my intentions public so there's more pressure to follow with them.

Should probably cut that gaming time down after work now...
 
More pressure because you told expert you want to be a translator? Tell your wife and kids you want to make their lives better by improving yourself, making more money for them to enjoy life, and spending less time in front of a screen with vidya. There's your pressure.
 
urfe said:
I'm going to start looking into Japanese to English freelance translation jobs more seriously I think.

I have N1 and a few years experience doing translation at my last two companies, but I definitely still feel like a newbie to the language and the craft.

I think it'll be good motivation to get into studying Japanese more again.

I'm mainly posting to make my intentions public so there's more pressure to follow with them.

Should probably cut that gaming time down after work now...
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https://www.ted.com/talks/derek_sivers_keep_your_goals_to_yourself?language=en
 
If you really want to do something, then why would pressure be needed? Couldn't stress be adverse to your goals? Aren't there places for foreigners to take classes to improve their Japanese?
 
my original post was simply saying youre not a 22 year old gafer who makes threads about 'how do you motivate yourself to do homework'.. urfe has been in japan like a decade. just get yo shit done.
 
I'm an expert said:
my original post was simply saying youre not a 22 year old gafer who makes threads about 'how do you motivate yourself to do homework'.. urfe has been in japan like a decade. just get yo shit done.
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I must've really had a bad choice of words.

All I wanted to say is "I'm going to get into this, wanted to share", and the pressure thing got taken very seriously.

Oh well, my mistake.

Been contacting translating friends and looks like after Golden Week there will be some projects. Will just to spend GW reading everything I can about everything.
 
I'm An Expert, I have your whiteboard method and listening method posts saved so thank you for that. I have a couple of questions for you (or anyone else that wants to chime in).

You mention a couple of times about "speaking" Japanese. It sounded like it was something else you wanted to cover and didn't get into it in either of the posts. Did you make a post about advice for speaking/practicing speaking Japanese?

I just started taking a Japanese class that is not based in a university. It's sponsored by the Japanese government and although is meant for children (these are families that are going to move back to Japan eventually or for family's getting government jobs in Japan), there are adult classes. We're using Genki. My question is, although obviously I should go along with the class and the book, I'm having trouble combining learning all these grammar points on my own and the ones in the book because the book obviously moves at a slower pace. I don't want to sound like I'm too far ahead in the class either and there's no way I'm dropping it as having native speakers to talk to is amazing (all the teachers, advisors, volunteers barely speak english). Any advice?

I got my whiteboard ready today and have written down your notes on listening so I'll be in here a lot more. Because of time, work and the class i'm taking, I've edited the workload. For me, it's going to be 10 Kanji a day, 1 new grammar point a day, reading for 30 minutes and consuming one piece of media for a couple of hours a day (with dictionary/notepad). Is that okay? Thanks!
 
I'm in NYC all week and heading back to jland in 2 so i can't do an awesome in depth answer yet. The reason i never wrote the speaking section was because it requires native speakers and i can't guarantee people have that.
The gist of the speaking section would have been to not think in English or try to change things from English. The starting point has to be Japanese and as a result a lot of people stumble there because it is very slow in the beginning to switch the Japanese on and English off. The speaking just comes from experience right? You hear the same thing over and over so you just repeat it when you need it.

In your case you're in a setting of all native speakers, use it to your advantage to absorb everything . I know inside the class you cant exactly bring up random advanced grammar, but surely outside of class being able to speak to native adults or teachers can be a huge resource. I blew past my college classes as well eventually. I guess dont be that guy who thinks he knows everything just because you did some outside study.

As for whiteboard, the key lesson is discipline. If the speed portion of it isn't required for you, then by all means go at whatever pace. But the big thing is never missing a day. Ever. That's another big piece of you switch your head out of english.
 
I'm an expert said:
I'm in NYC all week and heading back to jland in 2 so i can't do an awesome in depth answer yet. The reason i never wrote the speaking section was because it requires native speakers and i can't guarantee people have that.
The gist of the speaking section would have been to not think in English or try to change things from English. The starting point has to be Japanese and as a result a lot of people stumble there because it is very slow in the beginning to switch the Japanese on and English off. The speaking just comes from experience right? You hear the same thing over and over so you just repeat it when you need it.

In your case you're in a setting of all native speakers, use it to your advantage to absorb everything . I know inside the class you cant exactly bring up random advanced grammar, but surely outside of class being able to speak to native adults or teachers can be a huge resource. I blew past my college classes as well eventually. I guess dont be that guy who thinks he knows everything just because you did some outside study.

As for whiteboard, the key lesson is discipline. If the speed portion of it isn't required for you, then by all means go at whatever pace. But the big thing is never missing a day. Ever. That's another big piece of you switch your head out of english.
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Thanks! Even if I'm really sick, I still don't see myself missing a day. I love reading and writing Kanji. It's also my favorite part of class.

For some reason, I have a lot more issues with grammar than learning new words or Kanji. Learning a word is a simple. It's memorization, it's just a word. Almost the same concept applies to Kanji for me but I find writing Kanji to be a lot of fun and the way I've memorized it so far is to write it out once a day since class began so it's a breeze. But grammar...It's almost as if I need to know every rule for each grammar point and why. Why is the て form used? Why not just say the dictionary form? Grammar is my biggest hurdle right now and I think it's because it's just not as simple as pure repetition or memorization (for me). Like I'm forcing myself to know every in and out of every rule for sentences. Does this make sense? How do I get over this?
 
Kaneda Shotaro said:
Thanks! Even if I'm really sick, I still don't see myself missing a day. I love reading and writing Kanji. It's also my favorite part of class.

For some reason, I have a lot more issues with grammar than learning new words or Kanji. Learning a word is a simple. It's memorization, it's just a word. Almost the same concept applies to Kanji for me but I find writing Kanji to be a lot of fun and the way I've memorized it so far is to write it out once a day since class began so it's a breeze. But grammar...It's almost as if I need to know every rule for each grammar point and why. Why is the て form used? Why not just say the dictionary form? Grammar is my biggest hurdle right now and I think it's because it's just not as simple as pure repetition or memorization (for me). Like I'm forcing myself to know every in and out of every rule for sentences. Does this make sense? How do I get over this?
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so now that i have a keyboard.. worrying about the rules is pointless. japanese doesnt use the rules. the only place the rules will matter are on a test, outside of them you will only find the rules in very specific life situations that i have a feeling you will not encounter. so its actually meaningless to invest so much energy into them.

the important thing is understanding how to say what you want to say. watch a tv show and catch a line you think is handy. deconstruct it, understand how you can mold it to what you need, and practice it. doing it like that you will build up helpful structures and in the process learn the underlying grammar points.

i think a good example of this that early learners may encounter is ~n desu. n desu can drive early learners crazy because it has so many applications but in english translates to fucking nothing. its better to experience it in the wild and pick up on the contextual clues then try to some how force a situation where you think the grammar point rule 3 you studied about n desu applies.
 
One interesting thing I've picked up from school is when the teachers talk on the phone, maybe to a kid's parent or just a general call they distinctly pronounce the す in です and other す ending verbs (arimasu and so on). Is this just a polite talking on the phone thing? A Kanto thing? Not just one teacher, all of them, from the kouchou to the guy that just sorts out the IT and supplies. It's not subtle at all. In normal conversation they revert back to usual dess mass style pronunciation.

Also どちら and that family of words are used way more than I expected, even in casual conversation. The kids use them all the time with eachother.
 
Porcile said:
One interesting thing I've picked up from school is when the teachers talk on the phone, maybe to a kid's parent or just a general call they distinctly pronounce the す in です and other す ending verbs (arimasu and so on). Is this just a polite talking on the phone thing? A Kanto thing? Not just one teacher, all of them, from the kouchou to the guy that just sorts out the IT and supplies. It's not subtle at all. In normal conversation they revert back to usual dess mass style pronunciation.

Also どちら and that family of words are used way more than I expected, even in casual conversation. The kids use them all the time with eachother.
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When I talk with a client I don't say "lemme git dat fo you" I say let me get that for you. No?

Not sure what you mean by second point, you were expecting shit like docchi? Those can have very curt, dismissive connotations outside of close friends, but even then the language you would use in a school is not the gutter talk you'd use outside.
 
I've had an on/off struggle with learning Japanese since, like middle school. I mean, I learned some grammar, ひらがな　and カタカナ　and countless 漢字 only to then forget. I mean, I was actually pretty okay and could mostly understand anime but now, I've just lost all of it. I remember the かな and a few kanji now　and that's about it. It really is hard to keep the information intact when you don't have who speak Japanese to help you. Used to post a lot on thejapanesepage forum for help...

anyway, I am gonna try to start all over, from the very beginning. I remember Tae Kim's Complete guide to Japanese being really helpful when I was a teen.
 
I'm an expert said:
When I talk with a client I don't say "lemme git dat fo you" I say let me get that for you. No?

Not sure what you mean by second point, you were expecting shit like docchi? Those can have very curt, dismissive connotations outside of close friends, but even then the language you would use in a school is not the gutter talk you'd use outside.
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Try working in an Australian office. Do you know what "she'll be right" means?
 
what's everybody been watching lately?

I've been getting into 世界の果てまでイッテＱ！「せかいのはてまで」　and 謎解きバトルTORE!「なぞとき」

I like 世界の果てまでイッテＱ！cause it's funny and there is a lot of banter between the people on it. It's a variety show? I dunno, I'm only just getting into this stuff now.

謎解きバトルTORE! is also neat, not as funny as イッテＱ！, it's a game show. The contestants get put into Indiana Jones style ..situations. The quiz sections can be pretty educational, actually threw me quite a bit when I first started watching.

I can post some more impressions + things I'm studying atm if people are interested. I'd say these two are pretty good for listening study. Combined with the nice and neat NHK news 1 min video clips. Those are made much easier due to the article basically being read out - obviously read the article once you've done the listening study.
 
Aeana said:
I taught Japanese for several years, and while my students generally were all very enthusiastic about the language, it was like pulling teeth getting them up and speaking to each other, or honestly even doing 聞く練習 (listening practice). I think it would be a great idea to organize regular voice chats for people to practice, because it's going to help you so much.
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Yeah i confirm, i'm almost finishing my 3rd year as a student of japanese in college, and while the grammar level is pretty good, my speaking skills are much lower because i never actually forced myself to practice it in class or with the few japanese people i've met, and recently i'm regretting this a lot.
 
_Ryo_ said:
I've had an on/off struggle with learning Japanese since, like middle school. I mean, I learned some grammar, ひらがな　and カタカナ　and countless 漢字 only to then forget. I mean, I was actually pretty okay and could mostly understand anime but now, I've just lost all of it. I remember the かな and a few kanji now　and that's about it. It really is hard to keep the information intact when you don't have who speak Japanese to help you. Used to post a lot on thejapanesepage forum for help...

anyway, I am gonna try to start all over, from the very beginning. I remember Tae Kim's Complete guide to Japanese being really helpful when I was a teen.
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The Complete Guide is, ironically, not quite complete yet. Use the Grammar Guide instead.
 
_Ryo_ said:
I've had an on/off struggle with learning Japanese since, like middle school. I mean, I learned some grammar, ひらがな　and カタカナ　and countless 漢字 only to then forget. I mean, I was actually pretty okay and could mostly understand anime but now, I've just lost all of it. I remember the かな and a few kanji now　and that's about it. It really is hard to keep the information intact when you don't have who speak Japanese to help you. Used to post a lot on thejapanesepage forum for help...

anyway, I am gonna try to start all over, from the very beginning. I remember Tae Kim's Complete guide to Japanese being really helpful when I was a teen.
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Yeah, well, if you don't plan to keep in touch with language, don't bother studying it. I learned this the hard way.

I studied french for some reason a while back and got to the end of the course. I was by no means perfect on it, but I was pretty good. I barely have any contact with the language these days. I hear two or three songs in french every now and then but that's it. And I mostly forgot it. I belive that if I were to study it again, I'd learn way faster than the first time, but it ain't worth the effort if you're not going to use it.
 
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