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Learning Japanese

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Ruzbeh said:
Kanji doesn't seem so bad. Those characters look really nice.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAH. Sorry, I shouldn't laugh but HAHAHAHAHHAHAHA. There's 2000 of those blasted thing to memorize so you can read a frickin NEWSPAPER. God forbid you want to read literature where the author likes to use the most archaic kanji to piss his/her readers off.

KANJI IS EVIL. The sooner you realise this, the sooner you're ready to learn Japanese. :P

If I learn a lot of Kanji, doesn't that mean I can also read Chinese?

There's 2000 or so Kanji for Japan. There's a billion for Chinese. That idea terrifies me.
 
Dragona Akehi said:
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAH. Sorry, I shouldn't laugh but HAHAHAHAHHAHAHA. There's 2000 of those blasted thing to memorize so you can read a frickin NEWSPAPER. God forbid you want to read literature where the author likes to use the most archaic kanji to piss his/her readers off.

KANJI IS EVI.L The sooner you realise this, the sooner you're ready to learn Japanese. :P



There's 2000 or so Kanji for Japan. There's a billion for Chinese. That idea terrifies me.


I think a person needs to know like 10,000 to be ok with reading in general or so I have heard...I know like 100 kanji and just keeping those up to date are killing me
 
Blackace said:
I think a person needs to know like 10,000 to be ok with reading in general or so I have heard...I know like 100 kanji and just keeping those up to date are killing me

You sure? I understood it was about 2000 or so to be able to read newspaper levels. Or at least 2000 is what the government "uses" as "official" Kanji. The rest is considered "archaic".


Jesus Christ I'm going to be having nightmares for months now, if I keep reading this topic.
 
Dragona Akehi said:
You sure? I understood it was about 2000 or so to be able to read newspaper levels. Or at least 2000 is what the government "uses" as "official" Kanji. The rest is considered "archaic".


Jesus Christ I'm going to be having nightmares for months now, if I keep reading this topic.

sorry I wasn't so clear...in Chinese... 10,000...

2000 to 3000 in Japanese... from what I know... you need at least 1000 to 1500 to go through college here
 
Blackace said:
sorry I wasn't so clear...in Chinese... 10,000...

Thank god. I was seriously going to shit a brick if that was for Japanese reading.

2000 to 3000 in Japanese... from what I know... you need at least 1000 to 1500 to go through college here

Yeah, that's much more in line with the Sisyphusian torture I had in mind for myself.
 
I don't understand the big deal with learning kanji. For anyone taking Japanese on any kind of serious level, you should look forward to learning kanji. If not go learn Spanish or French.

Once you learn the radicals it all snowballs anyway.
 
kpop100 said:
I don't understand the big deal with learning kanji.

The big deal is it's hard. That's the big deal.

It's somewhat disheartening to learn a language for 4-5 years and still be basically illiterate.
 
teruterubozu said:
The fastest way to learn Japanese besides going to Japan is to get a Japanese girlfriend.

and speak like a woman!
 
Kanji is fun! :)

The Japanese government publishes a list of 1945 "daily use" kanji which are what Japanese children learn through secondary school. You don't need to be intimate with all of these, however. I would guess that only around 500 kanji account for the overwhelming majority of kanji you'll see in newspapers and so forth.

There's another 1000 or so kanji the government has designated as primarily for use in names. The JIS character encoding system (what people use to represent Japanese text in computer format) has around 16,000 kanji.
 
the year 20XX said:
The big deal is it's hard. That's the big deal.

It's somewhat disheartening to learn a language for 4-5 years and still be basically illiterate.

It's not that hard if you want to learn it. That's the key. When I was studying at a Japanese uni for 1.5 years there were people who learned more in a year than people who took it for 5.

In a couple years in Japan I'm about at 2kyu level. I'm taking an intense 4.5 hour a day class for a year starting in Oct that will hopefully get me to 1kyu by next Dec.
 
Watch a lot (and I do mean a lot) of Japanese movies/dramas/animes (preferably without subtitles), try to read a lot of online articles and magazines in Japanese (maybe with furigana on the Kanji), try to hook up with Japanese people, try to spend a year in Japan. Oh, and play some games in Japanese.

If your reason for learning Japanese is an interest in the culture, then the above shouldn't be hard to do, in fact it should be something you do for fun. Of course taking classes, etc. also helps a lot, but if you don't immerse yourself in the culture, then you'll never be good at it.

Oh, and as a non-native English speaker, I can tell you that learning the spelling of English words is just as hard as learning Kanji.
 
fennec fox said:
Kanji is fun! :)

Not when you're teaching yourself and have a limited budget of time. It'd be one thing if it was just an alphabet -- I learned hiragana and katakana with such ease it was frightening. Or Cryllic.

This is a word-symbol language where you can't pick apart the patterns to figure it out. Well I suppose there are some patterns (hello radicals) but you know what I mean.

That said, it can be very fun when you've got the time to loaf around. But I can't help but get frustrated when I'm (attempting) to read something printed, online or in a game WORD BY WORD or LETTER BY LETTER, when my reading capacity in other languages is pages at a time. To sit there and go OH FUCK ME every time a kanji comes along is rather irritating at the very least.

But purely on an academic level? I could practice kanji in heaven all day long. It's the practicality that has me pulling my hair out.

The Japanese government publishes a list of 1945 "daily use" kanji which are what Japanese children learn through secondary school. You don't need to be intimate with all of these, however. I would guess that only around 500 kanji account for the overwhelming majority of kanji you'll see in newspapers and so forth.

There's another 1000 or so kanji the government has designated as primarily for use in names. The JIS character encoding system (what people use to represent Japanese text in computer format) has around 16,000 kanji.

Well there we go! I know about 100, so only another fucking 15 900 to be good to go for good. :P
 
kpop100 said:
That's what I'm saying. If you really like taking Japanese, Kanji is fun.

I majored in Japanese history and have deicated a large chunk of my life to the culture.. and learning it is fun (when I do learn it)... but it is hard... at least it is for me..
 
Ruzbeh said:
Ok. I wanna learn some Japanese.

Ruzbeh said:
I guess I should get some books or something.

Ruzbeh said:
Someone hold my hand. :(

Ruzbeh said:
Also, I'd like to know how to spell my name 'Ruzbeh' in Japanese.

Ruzbeh said:
What's the fastest time someone took to learn Japanese? And be fluent?

i'm going to assume you're not trying to learn to live abroad or take a job requiring Japanese language profiency, in which case i'd recommend hitting up Google for web Japanese courses, a kana chart (like this one: http://www.gate39.com/jreference/kanachart.aspx), and Jim Breen's JDIC (http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/wwwjdic.html). At least get an idea of what you're getting into before signing up for a course.

i first got my feet wet nine years ago by searching guides on the web. i got further into it when i started picking books up from the library, and bought myself the Living Language course on Japanese. Seemed like a good idea at the time considering it came with a tape (:lol) but it didn't stress learning kana and there were several errors throughout the book. About five years later, i actually met someone who had taken a few years of Japanese, and learned under her and her instructor before i ended up moving out of town.

i loved learning Japanese and wished i didn't have to stop, but frankly i had no practical use for it. Unless you live in an area where there's a lot of native speakers, your skills will depreciate rather quickly. i saw that happening to myself and haven't picked it back up since. The amount of work needed to maintain fluency is just too much.

If it end up going to Japan, i'll definitely enroll in a course or pick up a few books to get back to where i was. Japanese was always pretty easy to me, especially speaking. Despite all the rules, once i learned the syntax (and some vocabulary) it was very easy to grasp.
 
You just gotta get started. If you need it to get you motivated, find a Japanese class at a local community college. There's always tons of Japanophiles who take those classes because of anime and stuff. But it's a really hard language to learn, especially if you dont' live in Japan. I even did live in Japan for 6 months and I'm not anywhere close to being fluent. Just plug away and study, study, study.
 
I've been studying for about 6 years now and it's been both rewarding and incredibly frustrating at the same time. It seems to have paid off somewhat, as I was able to read and communicate fairly well in Japan. Once I've moved, I should be able to really sharpen my skills, as being surrounded really helped out. Only within the last 1-1.5 years have I finally been able to start "thinking" in Japanese, rather than doing "mini-translations". I think you must really be interested in the language in order to succeed on your own, though. I find it enjoyable to study and am quite motivated. However, it is very challenging at times, and it can take time before you really grasp certain aspects of it. For me, things would suddenly just "click" at one point and it felt as if a new door had opened.

One thing I have't heard mentioned in this thread is the method proposed and written by James W. Heisig for learning kanji. This is a route that I have recently been traveling, as my kanji knowledge needed work.

Basically, the concept of his method is to make the kanji system work in your native language. He attaches very short stories and ideas to each kanji and builds them up from the basic structures.

A really simple example would be something like...

古

He writes...

old

The primitive elements that compose this character are ten and
mouth, but you may ³nd it easier to remember it as a pictograph
of a tombstone with a cross on top. Just think back to
one of those graveyards you have visited, or better still, used to
play in as a child, with old inscriptions on the tombstones.
This departure from the primitive elements in favor of a pictograph
will take place now and again at these early stages, and
almost never after that. So you need not worry about cluttering
up your memory with too many character “drawings.” [5]

* Used as a primitive element, this kanji keeps its key-word
sense of old, but care should be taken to make that abstract
notion as graphic as possible.

The order used for learning the kanji along makes it easy to remember them without writing them over and over again (once or twice is enough and only to practice the actual writing aspect).

The downside is that you need to follow the program all the way through. His first book does not actually reveal any Japanese words at all. You have a kanji, keyword, and description in English...but no Japanese. Volume 2, then, starts to teach actual words (as does V3). It seems that he is taking a multiple step approach. Rather than trying to learn a kanji and all of the meanings (and different readings) in one go, this method teaches you the symbol and gives you insight into the symbol. This really helps remove the kanji barrier when you start to learn more words. I already knew about 500 kanji when I started this, but I've followed his directions and looked over every kanji, including those that I already knew. Due to the method in which they are constructed, this is necesary, or his points will not work. This method also fails to cover kanji combinations, I suppose. You won't see words created from multiple kanji.

However, I still find this method to be pretty amazing. I've learned many new kanji and re-learned old ones and, unlike before, I can now WRITE all of them. I dunno, my previous approaches were just so...different and tedious. I can cover like 20-30 new kanji a day even with work. The book is called 'Remembering the Kanji', BTW.

I'm not so certain that this method is suited for a beginner, though...but it's something worth looking at once you have a grip on the language.
 
Japanese is quite a bit easier than most people think it is. The first and most important thing to learn in Japanese (after learning Katakana and Hiragana) is learning basic sentence structure and the components of creating sentences. From there, learn the common units used in sentences and then more advance sentences. Once you're able to decipher and understand how a sentence is created, everything becomes a billion times easier.
 
aoi tsuki said:
i'm going to assume you're not trying to learn to live abroad or take a job requiring Japanese language profiency, in which case i'd recommend hitting up Google for web Japanese courses, a kana chart (like this one: http://www.gate39.com/jreference/kanachart.aspx), and Jim Breen's JDIC (http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/wwwjdic.html). At least get an idea of what you're getting into before signing up for a course.

i first got my feet wet nine years ago by searching guides on the web. i got further into it when i started picking books up from the library, and bought myself the Living Language course on Japanese. Seemed like a good idea at the time considering it came with a tape (:lol) but it didn't stress learning kana and there were several errors throughout the book. About five years later, i actually met someone who had taken a few years of Japanese, and learned under her and her instructor before i ended up moving out of town.

i loved learning Japanese and wished i didn't have to stop, but frankly i had no practical use for it. Unless you live in an area where there's a lot of native speakers, your skills will depreciate rather quickly. i saw that happening to myself and haven't picked it back up since. The amount of work needed to maintain fluency is just too much.

If it end up going to Japan, i'll definitely enroll in a course or pick up a few books to get back to where i was. Japanese was always pretty easy to me, especially speaking. Despite all the rules, once i learned the syntax (and some vocabulary) it was very easy to grasp.
Well some day I want to go to Japan. And do some stuff. Mostly I get jealous of Japan because of the awesome games they get and some more stuff. I'm not sure if I'm ever going to live to Japan. I still don't know what I wanna be when I grow up, so if that job or whatever I choose is, like, compatible with Japan I might live there. But I definately need to go there on vacation or something. And I really don't like going on vacation to a country I don't know the language fluently.

And of course the most important reason, Japanese is Kenshin's language. :D
 
Hmm, my experiences has been mainly immersion, a dictionary, and textbooks I borrowed from Shouta ages ago :D I picked up Hiragana/Katakana in about a week XD I'm nowhere near fluent tho, I just barely get by. But I'm always picking up new kanji everyday.
 
Ruzbeh said:
Well some day I want to go to Japan. And do some stuff. Mostly I get jealous of Japan because of the awesome games they get and some more stuff. I'm not sure if I'm ever going to live to Japan. I still don't know what I wanna be when I grow up, so if that job or whatever I choose is, like, compatible with Japan I might live there. But I definately need to go there on vacation or something. And I really don't like going on vacation to a country I don't know the language fluently.

And of course the most important reason, Japanese is Kenshin's language. :D

So your in the unique position of being a nonJapanese who wants to learn Japanese because of Anime and video games. Very rare these days :p

Seriously no offense but if you wanna learn Japanese you should have a slightly better reason than that.
 
kpop100 said:
So your in the unique position of being a nonJapanese who wants to learn Japanese because of Anime and video games. Very rare these days :p

Seriously no offense but if you wanna learn Japanese you should have a slightly better reason than that.
ESPECIALLY because he likely would not even reap any of those benefits for quite some time. You don't just start studying and suddenly, bam, you can play any Japanese game you want or something. That should be nothing more than a bonus to learning, not the reason.

I doubt someone could stay motivated if that was their only reason...and really, what would be the point?
 
I took Japanese in high school for a few years and the first thing our teacher (who we thought was crazy, but going over this thread makes me now think her teaching methods made sense) had us first start with Hiragana. We would do nothing but write it over and over on grids of paper like Blackace suggested and in the order he suggested also (a i u e o, ka ki ku ke ko). We did this for a few weeks and then moved onto Katakana and proceeded with learning that through the same method.

To this day I still know pretty much all of the hiragana and katakana characters and can write them fine and I really have to give my teacher credit for drilling this stuff into us on day one. Katakana is the shit because it's basically English sounded out in Japanese characters. Also, Katakana and Hiragana share almost the same symbols for each alphabet so learning both is pretty quick once you've picked up one.

Kanji...well Kanji is the devil. A lot of people in my class in high school were Chinese so they had a big advantage in this area. Not all of the Japanese Kanji are the same as the Chinese ones, but enough were that they got it fairly quick as far as basic Kanji is concerned.
 
kpop100 said:
So your in the unique position of being a nonJapanese who wants to learn Japanese because of Anime and video games. Very rare these days :p

Seriously no offense but if you wanna learn Japanese you should have a slightly better reason than that.
Yeah. Buuuuuuut. I have a better understanding of languages than the ordinary person because of my background. I'm not saying I'm supergood, but I'm good.
 
Ruzbeh said:
Yeah. Buuuuuuut. I have a better understanding of languages than the ordinary person because of my background. I'm not saying I'm supergood, but I'm good.
Your background?
 
dark10x said:
Your background?
Well. Yeah. I'm Iranian, but I was born and raised in the Netherlands. Soooo. I used to know fluent Iranian when I was really little but now I forgot how to speak the language :/ but I know fluent Dutch (obviously), but also fluent English. I was fluent in English when I was, like, eight years old. I think because I knew Iranian I could understand languages better but more importantly I learned how to pronounce things perfectly. I think.
 
Ruzbeh said:
Well. Yeah. I'm Iranian, but I was born and raised in the Netherlands. Soooo. I used to know fluent Iranian when I was really little but now I forgot how to speak the language :/ but I know fluent Dutch (obviously), but also fluent English. I was fluent in English when I was, like, eight years old. I think because I knew Iranian I could understand languages better but more importantly I learned how to pronounce things perfectly. I think.

You're past your critical language period though. Learning a language past about 11-12 years old is exponentially harder than before. I'm not saying you can't learn a new language and become fairly good it, but fluency in terms of how you're fluent in Dutch and English isn't gonna happen.
 
XMonkey said:
Kanji...well Kanji is the devil. A lot of people in my class in high school were Chinese so they had a big advantage in this area. Not all of the Japanese Kanji are the same as the Chinese ones, but enough were that they got it fairly quick as far as basic Kanji is concerned.
Yeah, same with my university classes, everyone is either Korean or Chinese, with a few white folk scattered amongst them. In my classes in the last two years of high school there was more Japanese people than New Zealanders.:lol

One thing that is very important is finding someone to speak the language with as you learn, otherwise you're going to have a very hard time learning to speak, in my opinion. I can write and read fairly well, but my spoken Japanese is absolutely abysmal, and I'm not as good at listening as I should be. It really does make a huge difference, comparitively, due to the bulk amount of Koreans here I am quite good at listening and speaking the language for someone who has only studied it for a year (well, 6 months of actual classes, for an hour a day four times a week). So try and find a native speaker to practice fluency in speaking with, and definitely do it sooner than later. I know here there's a language exchange (they pair you with someone who speaks the language you want to learn and wants to learn the language/s you speak) organised by the university I attend, that I've recently started doing, and you don't even have to be a student at the university to sign up to it. If there's a large University where you live, you should look into something like this.

And I've got a question regarding the Japanese proficiency tests for people who have done them. I haven't done one before and think I'll give them a shot this year, but don't know which one I should take. If someone could give me a run-down on what the material was like in the test or tests they took, that would be mint.
 
pjberri said:
Yeah, same with my university classes, everyone is either Korean or Chinese, with a few white folk scattered amongst them. In my classes in the last two years of high school there was more Japanese people than New Zealanders.:lol

My class is actually about half white people. Of the Chinese people one is just illiterate and we give him a lot of shit for it, the other is this arrogant bitch who's just doing it to boost her "already 4.0" GPA. She pisses me off to no end, but she's doing bad. Schadenfreude is my only release.
 
NotMSRP said:
Possible to become a near native or native level in a few months. Of course, you need to study like 24/7. The reason it takes years is because people study only a small portion of the day per day.
This is blatantly false. You can pretty much study every waking hour of your life for six months and have the brain of a high-level genius and you still won't become native level in that amount of time. It's just not possible.

That's not to say six months of intensive study won't take you far -- you should be able to reach at least intermediate level by that point, but you will not be "near native or native" by any means.

Stay away from any textbooks that try to teach you in English. It just slows you down and screws up your thought process while learning. I've tried many textbooks and taken several different classes, and in my experience, the two "Minna no Nihongo" texts are excellent starting points to get you from beginner to early intermediate level before you start tackling the more hardcore stuff. If you study kanji concurrently with these two books, you should be able to challenge the level 2 nouryokushiken by the time you're finished. But, you will need to be able to read hiragana and katakana before you can use these, as there's no English in them whatsoever.

Good luck. Studying Japanese is a lot of fun, but it's a big challenge and requires a lot of commitment and dedication. If you're up for it, then by all means get crackin!
 
My Japanese classes started off pretty large in the beginning, but right up until the last year of college, the classes were always pretty mixed; mostly white, black, and a few Korean or Chinese. The only Japanese student I ever saw was kicked out of the class immediately once the teacher realized he was trying to get an easy grade. This guy would always sit in the back of the classroom with a hat down over his face to hide the fact that he was Japanese. :lol There was another girl that did get away with it, though. She's half African-American and half Japanese, but looked completely African-American. She told us after her last semester in the class that her father worked for the consulate and that she was completely fluent and played dumb to get an easy A. Too bad she always came late, which causes your grade to drop if you do it enough, and even showed up an hour late to the final exam, which was when the teacher informed her that she wouldn't be allowed back for the next semester.

My first semester of Japanese was filled with otaku freaks and such; basically people that did nothing but talk about Kenshin (this was in 1999) and cosplaying. Most of them didn't make it through the first few weeks of class. By the second year, they were almost all gone; the class size was cut in half, and by the third year, the class size was around maybe 10 people total and only the more serious students were left. Fourth year was even less at around 6-8 people. Fourth year was also the most enjoyable class by far IMO; we got a lot more free reign in what we studied and did in class; I did a powerpoint presentation in Japanese all about Azumanga Daioh that went on for about 15 minutes. That was a really fun class. :)

Ruzbeh said:
Yes.

But I learn fast, and I'll learn Japanese ASAP. I promise <3.

The only way you're going to be able to learn Japanese is to REALLY get immersed in the language and find places to use it outside of the classroom. I took over four years of Japanese in college, but aside from trips to Japan, never got to use it and didn't study as hard as I should have, so I didn't learn as much as I could have. It's also been almost a year since I've used it, so I'm very rusty right now, but since I'm finally moving to Japan, I figure being around the langauge all the time is going to work in my favor.

Don't rush things. First learn some basic vocabulary and start on the grammar, and memorize all the katakana. You don't even need to know Japanese to read Katakana since it's used for loan words. Then move onto hiragana, and once you have those two down, you can start on the wonderful world of Kanji. (which is my biggest weak point...I've also forgotten so much of it! :lol)
 
I learned Japanese in college. I think the biggest problem people have at first is taking a sentence and translating everything word for word in the order you would say it in English. I say forget all of that, and instead of words, I imagine it with images and emotions in the order you would say it in Japanese. Same goes for remembering vocab and kanji (which can be fun if you go at it like it's a painting!) So I'd say forget what you already know and apply what you're learning, ya know?

I've had teachers that do alot of hands on interaction in the class and some that do lots of by the book drills. With hands on, it's an easy way to learn. The drills are important to learn to do if you're learning by yourself, I've found.
 
I learned what I "know" from games. After about a week or so of 'flash writing' hiragana and katakana, those have stuck with me since then. Kanji is on and off; but I know literally no grammar.

I have no idea if what I learned would be useful in an actual class, but that's some immersion..hopefully the college I get transferred to has an Introduction to Japanese class, as what I've "learned" is fine for games, but not actual speaking/reading of the real language.

Games seem to me an introduction to kana (well, at least older games before they started using lots of kanji), but not a really good or useful source of trying to learn.
 
Kanji kanji Oh you are the devil.

...

Seriously though, if you think kanji is bad... it might suprise you to learn that we read english in a similar manner.

That is, we read per word... not per letter. We remember the shapes of the words, and the height of the letters, the width, the spaces they have all work together to create a relatively distinct pattern, per word.

On the plus side, with english, if you encounter a word you've never seen before, you can read it subvocally, at least with some degree of accuracy, and extract its meaning through context. While you can also extract context with pictographs, you're quite fucked as far as the sound is concerned.

With japanese it's even worse as the pictographs don't have consistent sounds to them... and even take up slightly variable meanings depending on who reads it!

What a rubbish writing system...
 
One of the challenge with Japanese kanji is that it's not a native Japanese writing system and the taught and widely spoken Tokyo/Kanto Japanese has a mixture of pronounciations of the same words from both the original native pronounciation as well as the borrowed Chinese pronounciations and which one you use depends on context.

The good thing is there's fewer you need to learn to function as opposed to the kanji in China.

You'll probably run into the different sounds when you learn the counting systems.
 
Yes! The counting! Oh god the counting. That's the most horrible thing I've ever had to learn. Or tried to learn anyway. I know a few native speakers that are sometimes unsure about what to use sometimes!
 
Completely from my own experience, a lot depends on how you learned your written native language.

Most of the people I know learned English phonetically, and have an extremely hard time with kanji especially; myself, and a few other people I've spoken with, learned it via rote memorization of the shapes of words while very young, and tend not to have that much trouble.

Take classes and learn basic grammar before you try anything else. Preferably until at least when you've gotten through some good amount of informal. It's a hell of a lot easier to look up the noun and verb in a sentence than all of the grammar surrounding it.

Most kanji mnemonic schemes are... kinda bad. The majority of the radicals can act as standalone kanji; you're better off learning them and their readings and going from there. SKIP is nice, but radicals are much more efficient, and don't rely on you always having a Halpern dictionary on hand; even Spahn and Hadamitzky's simplified list are more transferrable.

The best way to memorize both kanji and kana are to write them over and over and over. Start with katakana coupled with romaji, then hiragana coupled with katakana, then kanji coupled with katakana for on and hiragana for kun readings. There've been plenty of times where I've seen something I don't quite remember the reading of, and reflexively traced out on my palm followed by the proper reading.

Any kind of visual culture you attempt to supplement yourself with is just that---a supplement. Just because you can recite back word-for-word the military ranks in an alien space navy or the phrases to win the heart of a huge-eyed middle schooler doesn't give you actual knowledge---at least, I really -hope- it doesn't. There's the occasional useful phrase, but if you're just there to absorb all you can you're going to come out sounding extremely weird.

The exception to this is stuff that actually lets you immerse yourself---FFXI is a good example, if you're playing with the Japanese version.

The exception to this exception is thinking that anything you hear on 2ch ever possibly comprises gramatically and socially correct text.

So, in the end, there's really not any easy sure-hit path. Unless you're an absolute genius, you're looking at a couple years before you can even really begin to learn anything but simple words on your own. That said, if you can tough it out until you know the basics, it's a lot easier to do your own studying.

That said, I'm also a hypocrite ranting at 6 in the morning. Everything here's simply my own experience, and I could well be a linguistic freak. But it's my firm opinion, above all others, that you need a study program that will teach you grammar before all else.
 
Zaptruder said:
What a rubbish writing system...

Actually it's a pretty good writing system. Japanese has such a limited amount of sounds (even moreso than Chinese), that you NEED something like Kanji, otherwise you wouldn't be able to understand what's written, because of the huge amount of homonyme. Just try reading any complex sentence written entirely in Hiragana (or Romaji).

Anyway, the best way in my opinion to learn Kanji or Kana is to learn them in context, rather than in isolation. Learn how to write the most popular compounds. I find it more intuitive to learn how to write the word 'benkyou' and to know that the second Kanji is also the Kanji for strong (tsuyoi), rather than learning each individual Kanji on its own, with all its readings and meanings.

I also find that learning Kanji can help my vocabulary. For example, the word 'rei' means 'example', and the word 'tatoeba' means "for example", and once I learned that they both use the same Kanji (except tatoeba has additonal hiragana), that made it easier for me to associate the two words together.
 
Miburou said:
Actually it's a pretty good writing system. Japanese has such a limited amount of sounds (even moreso than Chinese), that you NEED something like Kanji, otherwise you wouldn't be able to understand what's written, because of the huge amount of homonyme. Just try reading any complex sentence written entirely in Hiragana (or Romaji).

Anyway, the best way in my opinion to learn Kanji or Kana is to learn them in context, rather than in isolation. Learn how to write the most popular compounds. I find it more intuitive to learn how to write the word 'benkyou' and to know that the second Kanji is also the Kanji for strong (tsuyoi), rather than learning each individual Kanji on its own, with all its readings and meanings.

I also find that learning Kanji can help my vocabulary. For example, the word 'rei' means 'example', and the word 'tatoeba' means "for example", and once I learned that they both use the same Kanji (except tatoeba has additonal hiragana), that made it easier for me to associate the two words together.

Are you used to reading kanji? That would explain why you'd have difficulty reading blocks of hiragana and katakana.

But that's what preschoolers do...

the brain is much more adaptable than you think... the use of spaces in addition to better basic letter shapes, would produce a much better writing system for them, most likely.

But they're used to what they're used to... while the brain is adaptable, once its hardwired, it stays pretty much hardwired.

But for real... a writing system based on a limited set of characters is much easier to learn than a writing system with a large set of characters... seems obvious? it is.


For most of us... when reading, we subvocalise the words, so that, the written representation typically goes through part of our auditory system before its processed for meaning. As such, the advantage ascribed to 2 unlike sounding characters that look similar, is probably less than you imagine. For the languages that make do without such an advantage, people are fine just associating words on rote memorization alone...

... for example, pervaricate and lie don't at all sound or look alike... but I've easily associated one with the other after doing a look up of the former and finding out its real meaning.
 
Zaptruder said:
Are you used to reading kanji? That would explain why you'd have difficulty reading blocks of hiragana and katakana.

But that's what preschoolers do...

Yeah, but that's with limited vocabulary and simple sentence structures.

the brain is much more adaptable than you think... the use of spaces in addition to better basic letter shapes, would produce a much better writing system for them, most likely.

That's not the problem. The problem is the large amount of homonyme (sp?) compared to English. I've once read in a book that if you were to read a Chinese passage from a book, that it wouldn't be easy to understand, due to a lot of words sounding ambigious (which Chinese characters solve), and that spoken Chinese has a lot of redundancy compared to written Chinese.

But they're used to what they're used to... while the brain is adaptable, once its hardwired, it stays pretty much hardwired.

Plenty of countries have changed their writing system once something better came along (Korea and Turkey, for example). If it wasn't the best available solution, they wouldn't have stuck with it.

But for real... a writing system based on a limited set of characters is much easier to learn than a writing system with a large set of characters... seems obvious? it is.

I disagree. If you had a limited set of characters, then you would have a situation similar to English, with its nonstandard spelling system. Believe me, as a non-native English speaker who has learned the language on his own, spelling and pronunciation in English is just as difficult as Kanji in Japanese is.
 
Well english isn't exactly ideal either. But they're only a limited number of phonetics in the language... and in theory we could've, should've used a character set based on the actual phonetics we use rather than a roman alphabet system... but whatever :P
 
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