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[Ruzbeh]

There's only one correct way to write kana stuff (which lines you draw before which and stuff). Is that the same for kanji? Because if it is, I not only need to remember the characters but how to write them. :/ Difficulty +1000.

 

[Miburou]

Yes, stroke order is very important in Kanji, but there are rules (with exceptions of course) for how to write. Left to right, top to bottom, vertical before horizontal, etc.

 

[pjberri]

Actually it's a pretty good writing system. Japanese has such a limited amount of sounds (even moreso than Chinese), that you NEED something like Kanji, otherwise you wouldn't be able to understand what's written, because of the huge amount of homonyme. Just try reading any complex sentence written entirely in Hiragana (or Romaji).

Agreed, this is the problem with Hangul. Despite it being the easiest writing system to learn, it's a bitch to read a block of Korean text.

 

[Zaptruder]

I sealed my seal with an official seal.

You know... I've heard the homonym reason for kanji been a good system used a few times...

but I don't think it's that relevant. I'm sure you can decipher the meaning of each seal used in the sentence above, even if it is a little awkward... and I don't think japanese has it quite as bad as that sentence.

So, we can easily pick up context, easily do all the other jazz and what not (as a function of growing up with a language)... so in the end, it comes down to kanji been a bitch to learn... just a tad more than none standard spelling of english.

If my argument does fall flat on its face once again, I'll just have to chalk it up to a lack of knowledge of the intricacies of japanese grammar and what not.

 

[Blackace]

There's only one correct way to write kana stuff (which lines you draw before which and stuff). Is that the same for kanji? Because if it is, I not only need to remember the characters but how to write them. :/ Difficulty +1000.

I see that it is sinking in now.. There is a stroke order like with the letters in English...but you can kind of cheat around them a bit... most Japanese people do..

Just on Sunday I was doing my studying at a park and this women wanted to help me out, so she tried to show the correct way to do it, as I was having trouble with a character. I said wait that isn't the right stroke order! She said yeah it is...then I showed her the book and she said, oh you're right, but it is easier!

So you can cheat a bit... just not too much or it does make them look different

 

[Miburou]

I sealed my seal with an official seal.

You know... I've heard the homonym reason for kanji been a good system used a few times...

but I don't think it's that relevant. I'm sure you can decipher the meaning of each seal used in the sentence above, even if it is a little awkward... and I don't think japanese has it quite as bad as that sentence.

"niwa niwa niwa niwa tori ga aru". In Japanese that means "there are two chickens in the garden".

So, we can easily pick up context, easily do all the other jazz and what not (as a function of growing up with a language)... so in the end, it comes down to kanji been a bitch to learn... just a tad more than none standard spelling of english.

Sure you can, but a good writing system should be easy and fast to read, otherwise you won't be able to read an 800-page book in a week. For example, when I'm looking for an izakaya in Japan (Japanese style pub), the kanji for izakaya is more like a logo to me than something I read, and I can glance at 20 signs and pick it out in an instant. On the other hand, if it was written in hiragana, I would need to read each sign, which takes far more time.

I do agree that it's a bitch to learn, but I also think that given the way the Japanese language is structured, it's a good system.

 

[callous]

Possible to become a near native or native level in a few months. Of course, you need to study like 24/7.

:lol :lol :lol

....... no.

 

[Ruzbeh]

"niwa niwa niwa niwa tori ga aru". In Japanese that means "there are two chickens in the garden".

WHAT??????

If I were to try and say that I would probably say niwa too many times or too little.

 

[fennec fox]

"niwa niwa niwa niwa tori ga aru"

You can extend this to something like
裏庭には二羽、庭には二羽、ニワトリがいた。
Uraniwa niwa niwa, niwa niwa niwa, niwatori ga ita.
There were two chickens in the rear garden and two in the front garden.

Another famous one:
貴社の記者、汽車で帰社した。
Kisha no kisha, kisha de kisha shita.
The reporter from your company returned to the office by train.

After WWII the US occupation forces floated the idea of doing away with the writing system entirely and standardizing on a Latin alphabet-based script, but it stalled because they couldn't decide on which romanization system to use, Japanese script had too much momentum, and the kana/kanji system holds a number of avantages to Japanese language that would be lost in Latin script.

 

[drohne]

i'm learning japanese i think i'm learning japanese i really THINK SO! i'm learning japanese i think i'm learning japanese i really THINK SO!

...sorry.

 

[MrSingh]

seriously you only need to know words like 中出し、びらびらちゃん　and ガンシャ。

 

[Shouta]

Just on Sunday I was doing my studying at a park and this women wanted to help me out, so she tried to show the correct way to do it, as I was having trouble with a character. I said wait that isn't the right stroke order! She said yeah it is...then I showed her the book and she said, oh you're right, but it is easier!

So you can cheat a bit... just not too much or it does make them look different

Stroke Order is mostly for form and how to make it look pretty. It also helps a bit to memorize it since sticking a specific order or form to write it in makes your brain organize it much more clearly. If you're writing it for notes and messages and your handwriting is good, your kanji will come out looking the same no matter what order you create the kanji in. It's a common thread I've seen with many Japanese people I've met, folks differ in the ways they write their kanji depending on who they are. I don't think I've ever met an actual Native Japanese that writes kanji exactly in the order that has been set by linguists.

 

[Blackace]

Stroke Order is mostly for form and how to make it look pretty. It also helps a bit to memorize it since sticking a specific order or form to write it in makes your brain organize it much more clearly. If you're writing it for notes and messages and your handwriting is good, your kanji will come out looking the same no matter what order you create the kanji in. It's a common thread I've seen with many Japanese people I've met, folks differ in the ways they write their kanji depending on who they are. I don't think I've ever met an actual Native Japanese that writes kanji exactly in the order that has been set by linguists.

umm... I have.. met plenty... they blast me whenever I go out of order. :lol

 

[Blackace]

After WWII the US occupation forces floated the idea of doing away with the writing system entirely and standardizing on a Latin alphabet-based script, but it stalled because they couldn't decide on which romanization system to use, Japanese script had too much momentum, and the kana/kanji system holds a number of avantages to Japanese language that would be lost in Latin script.

this was closer to happening than most people know... I wonder what Japan would be like in Romaji?

 

[Miburou]

And I've got a question regarding the Japanese proficiency tests for people who have done them. I haven't done one before and think I'll give them a shot this year, but don't know which one I should take. If someone could give me a run-down on what the material was like in the test or tests they took, that would be mint.

I took 3kyu last year. I don't remember all the details, but it was divided into 3 sections: listening (25%), vocab and kanji (25%) and grammar and reading comprehension (50%). It's a multiple choice test (A, B, C or D), and you have about 140 minutes (with a break in the middle).

As for the material, you need 300 kanji and 1,500 words. The grammar is what you would find in a beginner's book (i.e. anything below intermediate). For 2kyu you need 1000 kanji and 6000 words. You can find a lot of resources on the net, and they even sell previous year's exam questions (complete with CD).

 

[Shouta]

umm... I have.. met plenty... they blast me whenever I go out of order. :lol

So that's where all the anally retentive Japanese people went, they latched on to you! :lol

 

[Oichi]

You can extend this to something like
裏庭には二羽、庭には二羽、ニワトリがいた。
Uraniwa niwa niwa, niwa niwa niwa, niwatori ga ita.
There were two chickens in the rear garden and two in the front garden.

Another famous one:
貴社の記者、汽車で帰社した。
Kisha no kisha, kisha de kisha shita.
The reporter from your company returned to the office by train.

After WWII the US occupation forces floated the idea of doing away with the writing system entirely and standardizing on a Latin alphabet-based script, but it stalled because they couldn't decide on which romanization system to use, Japanese script had too much momentum, and the kana/kanji system holds a number of avantages to Japanese language that would be lost in Latin script.

Woot! Thanks! I was looking for these tongue twisters after a friend of mine told them to me.

From my personal experience, I came to Japan last year June, and I basically knew nothing. I considered anything that I learned randomly to be not something that was useable in Japan, so I started from scratch. After about 10 months of study (via private teacher once a week + my own self study. I didn't start until Nov 2004), I'm up to about 270 kanji memorized and I'm still learning quite a few. I studied hiragana/katakana by myself and then my private teacher reinforced it into my brain. After I was able to read fluently (it took me about two months to read really really fluently, to the point where I was reading most common words as fast as I do in English) my learning took off. I'm not on the same level as some of the other guys that I know (john, JP, etc.) but compared to a year ago I've improved 100-fold. If pushed (since I'm still hella embarrassed with my crappy Japanese) I can hold an 'okay' conversation in Japanese, and my listening comprehension is extremely high due to the fact that I'm in Japan, although some basic questions will always slip by me if I'm not paying attention.

Any way, if you want to get the language down, start with the reading aspect of it and the speaking part will eventually come. My speaking ability is still shit but I can read like a madman for the most part.

 

[Blackace]

So that's where all the anally retentive Japanese people went, they latched on to you! :lol

Well, they do teach it in schools by stroke order...and I do know a lot of teachers... so...

 

[BugCatcher]

Actually it's a pretty good writing system. Japanese has such a limited amount of sounds (even moreso than Chinese), that you NEED something like Kanji, otherwise you wouldn't be able to understand what's written, because of the huge amount of homonyme. Just try reading any complex sentence written entirely in Hiragana (or Romaji).

Well, it's good now, as the language has evolved around the writing system. I'm sure you know this already, but for others who may not know, the reason there are so many homonymns is because along with the writing system, Japanese imported Chinese loanwords by the boatload. As I understand it, due to the differences in pronounciation between the two languages (tonal vs. non-tonal, for example), many words that (I assume) had different pronounciations in Chinese ended up with the same reading in Japanese. I think I've read somewhere that over a third of Japanese words are homonymns, or some absurdly high figure like that, and I wouldn't doubt that this is the reason. If you restricted yourself to yamato kotoba, I would not expect that there would be enough homonymns to make communication difficult. But that's a moot point now; Chinese characters and Chinese words were imported into the Japanese language together, and they are so intertwined that it would be incredibly impractical to use one without the other. So yes, the current writing system is the best way to write Japanese. But I would never say that Japanese is a good writing system.

Sure you can, but a good writing system should be easy and fast to read, otherwise you won't be able to read an 800-page book in a week. For example, when I'm looking for an izakaya in Japan (Japanese style pub), the kanji for izakaya is more like a logo to me than something I read, and I can glance at 20 signs and pick it out in an instant. On the other hand, if it was written in hiragana, I would need to read each sign, which takes far more time.

I dunno, if we are talking about individual words then I'm sure you can identify it by its shape rather than by reading it, same as in English. You should be able to pick out コーヒー just as easily as 珈琲, and after you've seen enough まんが or　うどん signs, you can spot them at a glance. This is especially true for loanwords; if you're looking at the floor map in Bic, you can find ミュージック, パソコン, and ゲーム in an instant without having to read the characters themselves, despite the lack of kanji. Books are another matter, however.

 

[fennec fox]

Sites in romaji
http://www.geocities.jp/hituzinosanpo/roomazi.html

As for the proficiency test, I found that there's a really large leap between level 3 and level 2, but not as much of one from level 2 to level 1. If you think you can ace level 2, you might as well put in the effort, go for 1, and maybe save some time and money.

 

[GaimeGuy]

珈琲

 

[kiryogi]

If you arent fluent, I wouldnt think youve 'picked it up'.

Eh, Hiragana/Katakana is extremely easy for me, what I really should have said as just with Dragonas statement, Kanji slows me down very badly.

 

[Zaptruder]

"niwa niwa niwa niwa tori ga aru". In Japanese that means "there are two chickens in the garden".



Sure you can, but a good writing system should be easy and fast to read, otherwise you won't be able to read an 800-page book in a week. For example, when I'm looking for an izakaya in Japan (Japanese style pub), the kanji for izakaya is more like a logo to me than something I read, and I can glance at 20 signs and pick it out in an instant. On the other hand, if it was written in hiragana, I would need to read each sign, which takes far more time.

I do agree that it's a bitch to learn, but I also think that given the way the Japanese language is structured, it's a good system.

Let me qualify again

I don't believe the japanese have it as bad as the sentence above, in their regular usage.

Of course, if you're pulling out tounge twisters, it'll be a laugh

Also, although you use street signs, I'm just wondering how valid that idea is... considering that we also use them in english, and I think we probably still have as fast a reaction time with familiar symbols; I mean... we differentiate via font, stylization, color, etc, etc... so that anyone familiar with a Calvin Klein fashion store won't mistake it for KFC, or even mistake a KFC with a Burger King.

On the otherhand, they're things like roadsigns... and while handy for the initiated... I can imagine some trouble when you're given directions to a new place vocally...

"Take katagawa street to ..."

Which ones katagawa? :O