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[dog$]

Does it belong in the same conversation as Tekken, VF, SC, SF, etc...? It depends on the conversation.

Well, so far the answer seems to be "no" in all cases. We've had three threads concerning this (the present, Leguna's, and the G4 Icons Fighters thread) all degernate to this very discussion when SSBM was attempted to be shoehorned into the same conversation as the other Fighting Games.

This is why I think trying to make the genre definition of a Fighting Game so loose that SSBM can be unarguably included benefits nobody.

I think if you were to ask 10 people "Is SSBM a fighter?", at least 5 of 10 would say yes.

However, I think if you were to ask the same 10 people "Of SF33S, VF4, Tekken 5, and SSBM, which one doesn't belong?", at least 9 of 10 people would say SSBM.

Fighting Game fans and those who otherwise dislike SSBM would have no interest in grouping the game with the other series.

Nintendo/SSBM fans would single SSBM as the shining example of a Fighting Game Done Right and incorrectly hold all other fighting games at fault for not providing as much content and accessibility as SSBM does.

I see no reason why Nintendo/SSBM fans so ardently insist that the game needs to be discussed with all other Fighting Games. As I said in Leguna's thread, Nintendo of Japan is OK with not rigidly calling SSBM a specific Fighting Game, so why is there a need for other people to do so?

 

[Baron Aloha]

SSB is not a fighter. It's a ring-outer.

 

[Azih]

But if you limit SSB to stock life/HP play, no items, one vs one on a single level stage then I would argue that a traditional 2d fighter discussion would be enhanced by the inclusion since it is a very different way of doing the same thing. And it's removing all the elements that prevent it from being in the house that SF2 built.

 

[junkwaffle]

What Ferrio said. Also, Smash Brothers is like the Disney Store for loveless Nintendo nerds.

Y'know, I shudder to think of a Disney/Nintendo IP crossover RPG. It'd bring all sorts of gay out on these forums. Half of you would just explode into pink sunbursts of estrogen the day the first screenshot was released.

MAN UP AND PLAY SOME BATTLEFIELD.

:lol :lol :lol
Sometimes his incessant trolling of Nintendo can be a beyond all reason, but Holy Shit is Drinky teh funny!!

 

[Dr_Cogent]

It's a fighter

'nuff said.

 

[Musashi Wins!]

I see no reason why Nintendo/SSBM fans so ardently insist that the game needs to be discussed with all other Fighting Games. As I said in Leguna's thread, Nintendo of Japan is OK with not rigidly calling SSBM a specific Fighting Game, so why is there a need for other people to do so?

It's weird, but when people on here get into list wars naming genre's, etc. that's when this fight always happens. It's because the GameCube doesn't have any fighters. I'm not saying that's anything but sad, but it's a time when this dumb argument often comes up.

I like the "party fighter" tag. That's how I think of Powerstone as well.

 

[dog$]

But if you limit SSB to stock life/HP play, no items, one vs one on a single level stage then I would argue that a traditional 2d fighter discussion would be enhanced by the inclusion since it is a very different way of doing the same thing. And it's removing all the elements that prevent it from being in the house that SF2 built.

It also removes all reason to even play the game :/

 

[Kabuki Waq]

It's weird, but when people on here get into list wars naming genre's, etc. that's when this fight always happens. It's because the GameCube doesn't have any fighters. I'm not saying that's anything but sad, but it's a time when this dumb argument often comes up.

I like the "party fighter" tag. That's how I think of Powerstone as well.

they have CvS2 i think.

 

[Particle Physicist]

SSB is not a fighter. It's a ring-outer.

are wrestling games fighters?

i say yes.

wrestling is a sub-genre of the fighting genre..

just as party-matches.. or party-fighter (SSBM) , is a sub-genre of the fighting genre.

 

[Crankenstein]

I don't see it as a fighter, but I consider it the best beat 'em up ever made. One of the best games, evar.

 

[Minotauro]

I really think the traditional and non-traditional designation proposed in the original post is the perfect solution to this problem. So, games like Street Fighter and Virtua Fighter would be classified as traditional and games like Smash Brothers and WWF: No Mercy would be non-traditional. What's the problem with this solution?

 

[Squirrel Killer]

But really. Would you really rather play this than Virtua Fighter 4? In a real test of skills?

Is that supposed to matter in any way, shape, or form?

I'd rather play Pac-Man than Lock'N'Chase. Doesn't change that they're both maze games. I'd rather play Super Mario Bros. 3 than Kid Chameleon. Doesn't change that they're both platformers. I'd rather play Baldur's Gate 2 than Arcanum. Doesn't change that they're both RPGs. I'd rather play NHL 2k5 than NHL 2005. Doesn't change that they're both hockey games. I'd rather play Halo 2 than The Punisher. Doesn't change that they're both FPSs. I'd rather play GT4 than Burnout 3. Doesn't change that they're both driving games. And on, and on, and on...

 

[Azih]

It also removes all reason to even play the game :/

See that's a debate that can take place, because that mode of play is pretty damn common and is very different from the normal random hillarity of the standard setup. Plus it could lead to a debate on how implementing the SSBM system of dodging (simple, block and hold left or right dodging through opponents with very little lag) would affect other 2D fighters. See that's good stuff.

 

[DonasaurusRex]

its wrestle fest with weapons.

 

[jett]

I see no reason why Nintendo/SSBM fans so ardently insist that the game needs to be discussed with all other Fighting Games. As I said in Leguna's thread, Nintendo of Japan is OK with not rigidly calling SSBM a specific Fighting Game, so why is there a need for other people to do so?

Same reason why some of them consistently try to label Zelda as an RPG. Who knows what that reason is, though.

 

[Squirrel Killer]

SSB is not a fighter. It's a ring-outer.

It's a fighter with different victory conditions.

 

[masud]

Read this. That's my only contribution. No way I'm arguing with any of the known haters in this thread.

 

[Minotauro]

Read this. That's my only contribution. No way I'm arguing with any of the known haters in this thread.

Would you mind pointing out some of these "known haters"? Aside from Drinky, who is just here for comic relief, I think most arguments in this thread have been well-reasoned.

 

[Squirrel Killer]

Well, so far the answer seems to be "no" in all cases. We've had three threads concerning this (the present, Leguna's, and the G4 Icons Fighters thread) all degernate to this very discussion when SSBM was attempted to be shoehorned into the same conversation as the other Fighting Games.

I haven't read Leguna's thread in full, but it would seem to me that the answer would be "yes, SSBM should be included" in all those cases.

"Icons" thread - A show about fighting games in general should important examples of the genre. Even if you don't like SSBM, it's certainly important to some fighting game players (i.e. the non-hardcore players)

Leguna's "Evolution of Fighting Games" thread - If you're disscussing ways for fighting games to evolve, you're being narrow-minded by removing an obvious member of the genre from discussion. Again, even if you don't like SSBM, couldn't it have innovative ideas (perhaps SSBM poorly implemented the idea, but in the hands of a "traditional" fighter company, they could improve it) that would improve the genre as a whole?

Present thread - Look if you think that SSBM doesn't belong in a conversation entitled "Lets resolve this ONCE AND FOR ALL! Is SSB a fighter?" you're just being flat-out retarded. Get help.

I think if you were to ask 10 people "Is SSBM a fighter?", at least 5 of 10 would say yes.

You're grossly over-estimating the number of people who've drunk your Kool-Aide.

However, I think if you were to ask the same 10 people "Of SF33S, VF4, Tekken 5, and SSBM, which one doesn't belong?", at least 9 of 10 people would say SSBM.

And they'd be right. That doesn't mean they aren't of the same genre. Of Pac-Man, Ms. Pac-Man, Make Trax, and Eyes, which one doesn't belong? Answer, Eyes, because it's a maze game where you can shoot the enemies. Still a maze game though.

I see no reason why Nintendo/SSBM fans so ardently insist that the game needs to be discussed with all other Fighting Games. As I said in Leguna's thread, Nintendo of Japan is OK with not rigidly calling SSBM a specific Fighting Game, so why is there a need for other people to do so?

I'm not even a SSBM fan, I've only played it a couple of hours, but the reason I'm so ardently insisting that it be grouped in with other fighting games is because it's a fighting game. (Now where did I put that massive, colored , blinking font...)

 

[jarrod]

This is why I think trying to make the genre definition of a Fighting Game so loose that SSBM can be unarguably included benefits nobody.

It benefits anyone trying to relate an understanding of game design to genre classification. To want to throw that out over overzealous Nintendo fans on messageboards strikes as counter intuitive to the basic concept of genre classifications. Please.

I see no reason why Nintendo/SSBM fans so ardently insist that the game needs to be discussed with all other Fighting Games. As I said in Leguna's thread, Nintendo of Japan is OK with not rigidly calling SSBM a specific Fighting Game, so why is there a need for other people to do so?

Then, once again, what shoud we 'rigidly' call it? And if the fighting genre allows for such strict definitions, what of other genres.

Bottom line, Smash Bros or Power Stone are just as much "fighting games" as Mario Kart or WipEout are "racing games". There's clear genre defininers and similairities to relate these titles within those genres, so why continually discount something like Smash Bros? Over concern about message board discussions? Stunning priorities you've got there.

Same reason why some of them consistently try to label Zelda as an RPG. Who knows what that reason is, though.

Ack! Now you've done it!

Remember, Animal Crossing was voted the best RPG of 2002. :lol

 

[masud]

Would you mind pointing out some of these "known haters"? Aside from Drinky, who is just here for comic relief, I think most arguments in this thread have been well-reasoned.

I was talking mainly about drinky. But despite the well reasoned arguements we already know what all lot of posters are going to say in any thread involving Nintendo.

 

[Crankenstein]

Same reason why some of them consistently try to label Zelda as an RPG. Who knows what that reason is, though.

Zelda is not an RPG. It is an adventure RPG. ;P

In many ways FF and such are NOT RPGs. You don't "play" a "role" at all. Life sims are much more RPG than "RPGs".

 

[Baron Aloha]

are wrestling games fighters?

i say yes.

wrestling is a sub-genre of the fighting genre..

just as party-matches.. or party-fighter (SSBM) , is a sub-genre of the fighting genre.

No, wrestling games are just that... wrestling games. Do they share some characteristics with fighters and beat-em-ups? Yes but that doesn't make them fighting games. Would you consider boxing games fighting games as well? Is Punch-Out!! a fighting game? No, of course not. Just because you can hit people in a game doesn't mean the game is a real fighting game. Would you consider SSB to be a platformer? Afterall you jump on platforms. The answer is again, no. It has platforming elements but it strays too far from what makes a platformer a platformer. The #1 rule of a platformer is that you jump/walk/run from point A to point B to achieve some kind of objective that ends the level and moves you on to the next challenge. SSB is really in a nameless genre all its own.

There are really only 2 sub-genres of fighting games.... 2D and 3D.

There are certain "rules" that need to be followed for something to truly be a fighting game. If you stray too far from those rules then you'll end up with something else entirely. There are several rules but perhaps THE principle rule to a fighting game is this... if you get hit enough times you lose the round and that's it. There's no "jumping back onto the screen", "no jamming on buttons to avoid a KO or to break a pin". There aren't any second chances.

 

[Squirrel Killer]

Is Punch-Out!! a fighting game? No, of course not.

The mind boggles at such a display in inanity.

 

[Pimpwerx]

SSB is a button-masher's dream. I don't rank it with VF4 or Tekken, but it's most definitely a fighter. A good one? Not in my opinion, but then again, millions of people love it, so my opinion doesn't matter. Lots of people love it. Some people are genuinely good at it. And it resembles fighters close enough to qualify. So, yes. PEACE.

 

[Gorgie]

Traditional Fighter: Do the moves make batshit sense on the controller while trying to pull them off? Does the game degenerates to dialing in your moves moves, hoping you can do it faster than your opponent? If all your character does is punches, and yet you're still pressing the kick button for moves, well then, you have an old school fighter.

Non-Traditional Fighter: Pretty much includes SSB, Wrestling, even Powerstone. If you punch one way with one character, then all characters punch that way with the same move set. In SSB, if you use a special attack with direction up, you know you will damaging the area above you. A simple concept. These fighters, take away the controls from the Loony Asylum, leaving only the stratagy of using the right moves in the right situation as determing overall victor. You don't have to learn each character, once you know one, you can play them all decently. For once, you're playing a fighter, and not Concentration. If you want to memorize stuff, whip out the flash cards, it'll do you more good.

Bottom line though, both types of games are fighters. And if you're trying to decide Fighting GotY for a given year, all fighters should be given a fair evaluation, and not written off because they play DO THINGS DIFFERENTLY!

 

[jarrod]

SSB is a button-masher's dream. I don't rank it with VF4 or Tekken, but it's most definitely a fighter.

Sounds like someone who's never played Smash Bros. I don't even like the game really, but it most certainly isn't a button masher. Scrubs have much better chance against a pro in Tekken or DOA by mashing than in SSB.

There are certain "rules" that need to be followed for something to truly be a fighting game. If you stray too far from those rules then you'll end up with something else entirely. There are several rules but perhaps THE principle rule to a fighting game is this... if you get hit enough times you lose the round and that's it. There's no "jumping back onto the screen", "no jamming on buttons to avoid a KO or to break a pin". There aren't any second chances.

This rule's arbitrary. When looked at from a design perspective, all these games basically have a health measurement that ultimately dictates victory. Now, Smash Bros eliminates one aspect used in traitional fighters to achieve victory, as a count down to zero doesn't equal a loss but rather it facilitates a loss. But in the end, there's still a set measurement of health that degrades as you take damage and ultimately leads to a loss.

 

[firex]

SSB to me is a fighter, the same way games like nfl blitz or nba jam were sports games. No, it's not technical or even trying to be realistic, but it's still in the same approach.

 

[Link316]

SSB is a button-masher's dream. I don't rank it with VF4 or Tekken, but it's most definitely a fighter. A good one? Not in my opinion, but then again, millions of people love it, so my opinion doesn't matter.

that's why I wanna see how many people would actually like SSB if it featured original characters instead of popular mascots

 

[john2kx]

see when the whole game is about not falling off the edge then it becomes a problem.

Cmon One on One it becomes insanely cheap if you fight someone who knows what he is doing.

Soul Calibur?

 

[jarrod]

that's why I wanna see how many people would actually like SSB if it featured original characters instead of popular mascots

The game design and combat engine are solid enough, just different. Obviously the gigantic sales come from the brand association (and the same looks to hold true for Jump Superstars too I'd imagine) but I doubt the game would have tournaments and such a dedicated "hardcore" community of it's own going if it was simply "Nintendo fanservice" and nothing else of substance. Some genuinely like it's system. Honestly, I wouldn't mind seeing Namco adapt it for amusement release.

 

[Triumph]

PACMAN IS A MMORPG

 

[Insertia]

No. It's not even a good game. It's just batshit Nintendo fanservice,

I agree with this mans trolling.

 

[Minotauro]

PACMAN IS A MMORPG

You just blew my mind.

 

[Azih]

No, wrestling games are just that... wrestling games. Do they share some characteristics with fighters and beat-em-ups? Yes but that doesn't make them fighting games. Would you consider boxing games fighting games as well? Is Punch-Out!! a fighting game? No, of course not. Just because you can hit people in a game doesn't mean the game is a real fighting game. Would you consider SSB to be a platformer? Afterall you jump on platforms. The answer is again, no. It has platforming elements but it strays too far from what makes a platformer a platformer. The #1 rule of a platformer is that you jump/walk/run from point A to point B to achieve some kind of objective that ends the level and moves you on to the next challenge. SSB is really in a nameless genre all its own.

There are really only 2 sub-genres of fighting games.... 2D and 3D.

There are certain "rules" that need to be followed for something to truly be a fighting game. If you stray too far from those rules then you'll end up with something else entirely. There are several rules but perhaps THE principle rule to a fighting game is this... if you get hit enough times you lose the round and that's it. There's no "jumping back onto the screen", "no jamming on buttons to avoid a KO or to break a pin". There aren't any second chances.

This is where the debate seems to revolve. Is the 'fighting' genre just SF2 clones in 2D and VF clones in 3D? Or should the fighting genre be broad enough to incorporate ALL games that involve humasn fighting other humans and the SF2 and VF type games make up the 'traditional' (hell name it whatever you want) sub-genre within the broader 'fighting' genre. You don't say Mario Kart isn't a racer, it's a kart racer. So why not the same for SSB?

 

[Ristamar]

PACMAN IS A MMORPG

Mobile Mouth-Orb Raping Pellets & Ghosts

 

[Shouta]

Man, this thread makes my head spin.

Link and roy? Be quiet scrub. You don't even know what you're talking about.

:lol

 

[jarrod]

definitely agree.

Nice. Now Drinky's not only attracting the loud-mouthed messageboard elite but also the narrow-minded sonycore. That one console future just got one step closer.

 

[Ristamar]

Edge camping...

Dude, Edge Camping is not the preferred nomenclature. Edge Guarding, please.

 

[Insertia]

Nice. Now Drinky's not only attracting the loud-mouthed messageboard elite but also the narrow-minded sonycore. That one console future just got one step closer.

jarrod
Nintendo Fanbaby

don't ever question your tag.

 

[Azih]

jarrod
Nintendo Fanbaby

don't ever question your tag.

Hey I'll question it. Drinky overstepped his bounds on this one.

 

[jarrod]

jarrod
Nintendo Fanbaby

don't ever question your tag.

Seems I'm not the only fanbaby around here. Guess I struck another nerve, only this one lacks mysterious GODMOD powers.

 

[MattKeil]

You "SSBM isn't a fighter" are a bunch of finger-in-ears whiny crybabies. It's a fighter. Period. Full stop. Case closed. Stick a fork in it, it's done. Not only has the fat lady sung, she's packed up and left the building. So has Elvis.

What other genre would it be in? Platformer? Hardly. Action? Only if the definition of "Action" was so broad that it also included every other fighter. RTS? RPG? TBS? I got it! FPS!

So you want qualifiers added to the "Fighter" tag? Fine. SSBM is not a "traditional" fighter. SSBM is a "party" fighter. There you go. Bully for you. +1 to the temper tantrum deniers of plain facts.

Does it belong in the same conversation as Tekken, VF, SC, SF, etc...? It depends on the conversation. If it's a light conversation about fighters in general (i.e. "What do you like about fighters?"), it absolutely belongs. But if it's a deep conversation about the details of the mechanics of one or two games (i.e. "How do you compare the juggles in VF as opposed to SC?"), then it probably doesn't.

It's fighter, it's fighter, it's fighter. (How do I make the font larger, in color, and flashing?) Got that? It's a fighter plain and simple. If you can't accept that a gay game might be in your precious genre, you need to grow the hell up and realize that one gay game in your cherished genre doesn't make you gay too. (Not that there's anything wrong with being gay.)

This man is entirely correct. Anyone who says otherwise is promoting an agenda and/or is rather dim. Really, has the Nintendo hatred gotten to the point that we have to start excluding their games from particular genres now? The people playing SSBM aren't the ones who need to grow up, methinks...

 

[Insertia]

Seems I'm not the only fanbaby around here. Guess I struck another nerve, only this one lacks mysterious GODMOD powers.

:lol
You give yourself too much credit, fanbaby. :lol

 

[Nerevar]

Hey I'll question it. Drinky overstepped his bounds on this one.

We all know Drinky and MAF troll Nintendo threads endlessly, let the NFans come in and flip out about it. It's usually much more amusing than the actual thread discussion at hand.

 

[jarrod]

:lol
You give yourself too much credit, fanbaby. :lol

I dunno, I seem to be getting such a stunning reaction from all sides. How can I not take credit for that?

 

[Pimpwerx]

Sounds like someone who's never played Smash Bros. I don't even like the game really, but it most certainly isn't a button masher. Scrubs have much better chance against a pro in Tekken or DOA by mashing than in SSB.

I played two SSBM games. One on the N64, one on the GC. Not that I owned the GC version, but I played it. It's a button-masher by any means. People call KI a button masher and it's infinitely deeper than SSBM. People call Tekken a button-masher and it's 10 times deeper than KI. By that logic, SSBM is a button-masher of colossal proportions. The googleplex of button-mashers. The only game that could out-button-mash it would be that hideous arcade game from the mid-90's where the whole point was to try and button-mash your opponent's head off. I think it was Time Killers or something. That's the only game that beats SSBM in button-mashing.

Maybe there's some depth to it, but it wasn't apparent with anyone I played against. And as far as total time devoted, I'd say about 3 hours for the GC game, and a few days worth of multiplayer with the N64 version. Compared to your traditional fighters, there's no denying SSBM is rather shallow. PEACE.

 

[Azih]

We all know Drinky and MAF troll Nintendo threads endlessly, let the NFans come in and flip out about it. It's usually much more amusing than the actual thread discussion at hand.

Sure, but Drinky never did THIS. That tag isn't witty at all. Now if the tag had been "PACMAN IS A MMORPG" that would have been genius. If it had been something along the lines of "Smash Brothers is not a fighter" that would have been amusing. But this is just a low level insult that barely belongs in GAF THREADS and is more at home at gamefaqs or ign boards rather than a GAF tag. It's not that Jarrod got a tag that's bad at all or even that it's a negative tag. It's the content of the thing.

 

[Future]

--------------
There are several rules but perhaps THE principle rule to a fighting game is this... if you get hit enough times you lose the round and that's it
--------------

By that principle alone, any versus game like would be a fighting game.

In Smash Bros the point of the game is to hit each other with hand to hand/weapon attacks, and it is not projectile based like shooter (Virtual On or FPS deathmatches). Players can block, swing, and throw like any fighting game. Players face each other in an arena, so there is no world or paths to follow after winning fights like a beat-emup or action game. The competition is not necessarily computer controlled, like something like punch out, and there are multiple characters to choose from with different moves and strategies. The point is to hit the other player more often than he hits you to get a win. If you win, you move on to the next match.

It's a fighting game

Sure, they play with the rules a bit. Your lifebar doesn't deplete, but it keeps track of damage the same way and eventually reaches a critical status where you can be killed at any moment because ring outs are made easier. They spice things up with items, 4 characters at once, and creative arenas...but the format is the same. The point is the same. Some people may question their sexuality while playing but so what?

It's a fighter just like Mario Kart is still a racer. Seems so obvious I don't even see why there is any doubt. Probably only is a big deal because Xbox/PS2 had traditional fighters right out the gate and throughout their life, so GC fans will sacrifice their first born to defend it.

 

[jarrod]

We all know Drinky and MAF troll Nintendo threads endlessly, let the NFans come in and flip out about it. It's usually much more amusing than the actual thread discussion at hand.

My commentary wasn't centered so much on Drinky himself, but rather the drones following in his wake. It's a man pretending to be blind leading the blind.