This post is so disgusting I don't even know where to begin.
Let's talk about catcalling
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This post is so disgusting I don't even know where to begin.
Premium Quality
Member
Although I don't have any link or sound clip to back it up, Heidi Hamilton from the Frosty, Heidi, and Frank Show said she gets a kick out of going to Home Depot and have the day laborers outside the store howling and hooting when she goes inside. She said it makes her feel good that people still find her attractive.
As for me, I have never catcalled anyone and I intend to keep it that way.
ClosingADoor
Member
Well, that's a whole lot of assumptions and victim blaming all in one post.
Just to get this straight:
1) The people complaining aren't actually victims according to you?
2) Because you don't get laid, you assume everyone who is approached for sex should be thankful for it?
Also, good job for making this issue about you, instead of the actual victims. /s
nkarafo
Member
I think the problem is the definition of the word confuses me. Initially, i thought it was only about whistling and honking.
I didn't think whistling is bad enough to count as sexual harassment. I do think that cornering someone saying you want to fuck him/her is though obviously. That's borderline assault actually. But the definition includes both behaviors. Nobody would enjoy the later (not even me) but i think (or at least thought) some people would enjoy the former.
Obviously my initial post was not about those extreme examples like in the comic. Now if people have their days ruined and feel terrible because someone whistle on them on the road, instead of passing it like something rude that happens from time to time, this i didn't know. I'm sorry if i patronized anyone.
ClosingADoor
Member
One of the issues is, it stacks up. Someone whistling at you once every few months. Well, whatever, you can move on. But if that stuff happens every day, combined with other forms like telling people to smile, commenting on appearance, straight up being an asshole, etc, we are getting a bit more past a day being ruined and straight up systemic harassment. Also note, this starts happening to girls at young ages, where you have adult males pretty much making those comments to 13, 14, 15-year olds, and it continues from there.
Problem is, for most men this issue is invisible because we are not being targeted by it and we don't see it happening. This leads to it not being taken serious and people not understanding the extend of the problem.
Like the hat?
Banned
Maybe you'd have better success in relationships if you didn't view them in such a thoroughly toxic manner.
entremet
Member
I believe this is where empathy comes into play.
You personally may not find it demeaning or accosting. However, many women and some men do.
Really, it starts with listening others points of view. And while you may have experienced once imagine hitting puberty and dealing with this since then for decades? Doesn't really sound fun.
Whistling is sexual harassment. The point isn't the action itself, it's how it makes the person on the receiving end feel. Especially as it can be a constant stream for some people.
Ask women who've been whistled at.
Yes, the content is disgusting, but I think the poster's difficulties might be genuine (as in not educated, poor experience, etc...). I think there's a huge problem with people like this, people who can't comprehend the actual impact of this type of harassment, and it's most likely because of bullshit ingrained patriarchal "sexism is a fallacy in the modern age" bullshit along with rape culture and other learned nonsense.
Not saying you shouldn't be disgusted, and I know we shouldn't have to educate every ignorant person, but maybe a conversation is better than a statement like that.
Ask women who've been whistled at.
Yes, the content is disgusting, but I think the poster's difficulties might be genuine (as in not educated, poor experience, etc...). I think there's a huge problem with people like this, people who can't comprehend the actual impact of this type of harassment, and it's most likely because of bullshit ingrained patriarchal "sexism is a fallacy in the modern age" bullshit along with rape culture and other learned nonsense.
Not saying you shouldn't be disgusted, and I know we shouldn't have to educate every ignorant person, but maybe a conversation is better than a statement like that.
Ok, I'll try to tackle this:
What if you're walking down the street and people threw slurs and insults at you? Would you feel intimitated by it? Would you call it harassment?
What if someone walked up to you and said those things to your face?
What if someone said they'd like to punch you?
What if it was a recurring thing?
What if it was because of something you can't control, like ethnicity?
It's the same thing with sexual harassment. It's about someone expressing that they would like to do something to you disregarding your own opinion. It's about making someone an object.
That make me wonder how bad is it in the gay community
HawksWinStanley
Member
"Nice boob job!"
Probably varies by region. Haven't seen it in my neck of the woods. Though there are still creeps for sure.
Considering public harassment of LGBT individuals in general though, it's probably going to be really rare. Most of us are pretty aware that there are still places you will be assaulted for who you are so random calls are just downright risky.
Maybe some seedy gay bars are bad but the threat of a bad cat call leading to something worse (Twinkie Defence) kind of eliminates it in general. At least in my experience.
storafötter
Member
Disgusting behaviour all around. I will admit as a man I havent witnessed much in public in Norway but I know how common it is in general worldwide. I would say in Scandinavia cat calling is a lot less prevalent than in warmer societies. Unfortunately those who tend to do cat calling more are people from other cultures where attitudes towards women are worse.
Being half Greek and also having lived in Cyprus it is such a big contrast to how men behave in Norway. Much more stares and cat calling in Cyprus. Men can be sexist everywhere but in some places they tend to say and do a lot more confrontation than elsewhere.
I feel for the women who encounter it all the time. Growing up I have always been very close to my sister and mother so I have always been privileged to be able to see things from their perspective. I think it helped a lot to make me aware of these issues and other things that women go through every day.
Being half Greek and also having lived in Cyprus it is such a big contrast to how men behave in Norway. Much more stares and cat calling in Cyprus. Men can be sexist everywhere but in some places they tend to say and do a lot more confrontation than elsewhere.
I feel for the women who encounter it all the time. Growing up I have always been very close to my sister and mother so I have always been privileged to be able to see things from their perspective. I think it helped a lot to make me aware of these issues and other things that women go through every day.
Despited any convos i had earlier in this thread, I saw some disgusting shit the other night.
About five guys hanging out in front of the bodega on my corner, in the middle of the sidewalk so they are up in everyones business (like as opposed to leaning against the front of the store)
A youngish woman walks by (maybe late teens or 20s). I couldnt make out what the ringleader said to her but all she did was keep looking straight ahead and said "I dont know you"
As shes walking away the guy starts screaming "YO! WHAT THE FUCK WHY DOES IT HAVE TO BE LIKE THAT. YOU CAN JUST KEEP WALKING YOU DONT HAVE TO SAY THAT I DONT KNOW YOU SHIT NEXT TIME IM GONNA TRIP YOUR ASS"
Yo. What the fuck is wrong with people. I cursed the fact that I am too puss to go up to five guys looking for trouble, but damn did I want to.
About five guys hanging out in front of the bodega on my corner, in the middle of the sidewalk so they are up in everyones business (like as opposed to leaning against the front of the store)
A youngish woman walks by (maybe late teens or 20s). I couldnt make out what the ringleader said to her but all she did was keep looking straight ahead and said "I dont know you"
As shes walking away the guy starts screaming "YO! WHAT THE FUCK WHY DOES IT HAVE TO BE LIKE THAT. YOU CAN JUST KEEP WALKING YOU DONT HAVE TO SAY THAT I DONT KNOW YOU SHIT NEXT TIME IM GONNA TRIP YOUR ASS"
Yo. What the fuck is wrong with people. I cursed the fact that I am too puss to go up to five guys looking for trouble, but damn did I want to.
StarSketch
Banned
Random guy: "Nice hair"
Me: "Thanks. -keeps doing whatever I was doing, no conversation continues-"
Is that catcalling or...?
Me: "Thanks. -keeps doing whatever I was doing, no conversation continues-"
Is that catcalling or...?
Remember when people were like "ugghhh this thread is so pointless, it's just gonna be an echo chamber!"
Sweet summer children.
blame space
Banned
did Netflix take down all the arrested development videos on YouTube? i was looking for Lindsay going to visit her father in jail.
ClosingADoor
Member
Yeah, this is one of the problems with these things. What are you supposed to do? Not even limited to situations like this, but just people being assholes in general. Speaking up is the right thing, but it might get your ass beat or have a crazy guy pull a knife on you or whatever. Can't call the cops, because what are they going to do? And that is how street harassment wins.
Sometimes I see situations and I say something. People being an absolute ass to the cashier in front of me, or kicking in the little gates at the metro, smoking in public transport, that kind of stuff. But a lot of times it just goes by so quickly and you feel the whole day you should have done something.
The second time they go to surprise dinner and no one is there is incredible.
Also "You kinda like me! Mom hates me"
I learned the hard way, in a driving incident, that ANYONE can be a fucking maniac. For the little things you mention, like kicking the gates at the metro, I have given up. I want to do the right thing, but its just not worth the risk. You never know who carries a knife, or who is just straight up out of their minds and with throw down with little provocation.
It really sucks.
As someone who is also fairly introverted, I absolutely hate being whistled at or honked at, when I'm trying to go about my business, because it feels like I'm suddenly being forced to be the center of attention. It makes everyone in the vicinity turn towards you and it means that everyone is now judging your appearance, to see if you merit their attention (even though you never wanted it in the first place).
You describe yourself as an introvert, also. Believe me then, you'd hate this attention if it happened regularly. Can you imagine, if you couldn't walk to the supermarket, without receiving this kind of attention. Also, you learn pretty quickly that it has less to do with how attractive you are and more to do with being young and alone. I've been honked at, while wearing sweats and suffering from a cold. And I'm one of those people where, if I have a cold, my whole goddamn face looks like its melting. So, it's not a: "Hey everyone, let's admire this amazing specimen!" It's just a: "Hey everyone, here's someone to judge!"
Doc Holliday
SPOILER: Columbus finds America
Catcalling is wrong, but I'm glad my dad it or else I probably wouldn't be here lol
Hi I'm an ugly girl with low self esteem that absolutely hates been catcalled. It doesn't make me feel desired. It makes me feel uncomfortable at best and terrified at worst.
Not gonna touch that last paragraph except to say maybe you aren't as much of a good guy as you think if you wish you could emulate cat callers.
Not really. What seems to have happened in this thread is that 99% of posters agree that classic cat calling is pretty disgusting.
Then we get bogged down in defining exactly what cat calling is. And corner cases and nuance, etc.
But I don't think anyone being reasonable is saying those two things are the same.
Its part of the reason I posted my story a few posts up. Just to sort of remind us, "hey we are all on the same side here, even if we are having arguments about minutia"
Lastly, after a few days of thought this is where I have come down on this.
Approaching a woman, on the street, whilst they are on their way somewhere is probably a weird thing, no matter your intent or what you say
Approaching a woman on the street who is smoking a butt, or on line at a food truck, etc, and paying a compliment or saying hello is fine, but if they don't seem at all interested, then leave it alone. Same if they are in a public place that is not considered a meet up place (bar), like a park or a library.
Approaching a woman at a place like a bar is of course okay, but if she doesn't seem interested, leave it alone.
Classic "catcalling" is disgusting and never okay.
100% agree on the bolded. Also as you mentioned, catcalling happens to women regardless of their physical appearance.
I don't think thats fair. The guy is saying he's lonely and has real trouble getting girls. He sees other dudes he knows act like boors and get women then says, hey if thats what it takes, I wish I was like that.
I would say the correct thing to do is point out that the reason the guys he knows get women is NOT because they catcall, but probably because (as shown by their catcalls) they are more extroverted than he is.
I would then explain that there is a balance between extrovert and introvert that is healthy and he should try and move his needle closer to extrovert without becoming the gross kinda guy that catcalls.
I've always wondered why catcalling is such a prevalent topic of discussion online. Like, I agree that it is awful and needs to stop, but in my experience, anybody I've ever met or seen catcalling aren't exactly the most tech-savy online readers. I don't feel like this message is even getting to the people that are being called out, if that makes sense. It makes for great discussion and allows for some minds to be changed, I suppose, but the typical catcallers of the world aren't likely to even see this. Not trying to start shit, I just feel like I see these topics so often over the past 5-6 years, without much change. Maybe it's just me?
If you wish you could be more like guys who treat women like shit if that's what it takes to get them to sleep with you then yes, I think it's fair to say you might not be a good guy.
But I have no interest in coddling "nice" guys. If you want to do that, go for it.
Uno Venova
Banned
I've seen it work a few times, since it has even a minuscule success rate I'm not surprised that some do it. I don't really look down on anyone who does it either as long as they don't get aggressive about it, and do it in the right (usually high energy) settings. One of those subjects that's a bigger deal online than out in the world.
You're really sounding textbook "nice" guy/fedora here.
Ironically, something you said really applies here:
You need to think about it from the perspective of those being harassed, minding their own business and getting inappropriate things shouted at them in public, making them feel quite uncomfortable. And you're going to sit here and tell them you are skeptical of them being a victim?
I'm not sure what you're viewing as "rude and obnoxious", but regardless, it's really simple: Don't be an asshole. Talking to women like humans works. Believe me, I know. I'm getting married about a year from now.
Catcalling them like they are a piece of meat doesn't work, and isn't right either. So there is no reason to do it.
When you say things like "Why don't girls like me? They always like the assholes.", you might want to take a look in the mirror for a sec.
What exactly constitutes a high energy setting? Like a club? Because there are very few instances where catcalling someone isn't something to look down upon.
edit - and that "miniscule" success chance may as well be zero for how often it actually works irl.
I think you may be underestimating the bolded.
There is a certain type of woman... think Kellyanne Conway, who actually wants a return of gender relations from decades ago.
NOT IN ANY WAY DOES IT MAKE THIS BEHAVIOR EXCUSABLE, but I felt it needed to be stated.
Ok, maybe I'd just like to believe that we live in a world where catcalling never works.
As someone who cycles in the city a lot, the honking may be catcalling, but I'm going to say that specific way of calling is probably just people being d***s. I swear I want to carry a pocket of rocks just to throw at cars who honk at me while I'm in a crosswalk.
Anyways, OP you've got a well written post with many good explanations on how this behavior is gross, inappropriate, and just plain wrong.
Anyways, OP you've got a well written post with many good explanations on how this behavior is gross, inappropriate, and just plain wrong.
killdatninja
Banned
I never really considered it sexual harassment, I hung out with friends who had done it in middle/high school, not excluding myself out of it because I was there and at times involved. That being said, it was a fucked up thing to do and I could tell some girls were very uncomfortable with it. The few that liked the attention... were the ones who had a pre-existing crush on one of the guys doing it. The guy would notice this and would act on it, usually ending up with the girl... so all the other guys thought it actually worked and continued on. Some would get frustrated because they received no attention back (usually leading in insults, "that chicks a bitch, that bitch is a nerd, she's a stuck-up hoe" etc etc).
In retrospect I guess it is sexual harassment, the intent was never to get to know the person but rather lazily playing the numbers game and hope that anyone says "yes". It's a cheap way of asking someone out, since you're not actually committing to asking someone out so it's easier to take rejection (some guys take ignoring or when they say no thanks as rejection, which it is). It's not a technique that works (well, most the time), but it's been ingrained in our society as OK at a young age. Most guys who do it convince you that they're doing the world a favor by letting these women they're beautiful ("I wish someone told me I was handsome", pretty common argument), but the reality is they're only doing it because they're hoping to get their beaks wet.
I don't know what I'm trying to convey, everything that I said has been expressed better by others. Either way, It's a lose-lose situation for anyone involved, the guy catcalling is having his feelings hurt (saying people don't like being rejected is an understatement), and the one being catcalled is uncomfortable (or worse).
In retrospect I guess it is sexual harassment, the intent was never to get to know the person but rather lazily playing the numbers game and hope that anyone says "yes". It's a cheap way of asking someone out, since you're not actually committing to asking someone out so it's easier to take rejection (some guys take ignoring or when they say no thanks as rejection, which it is). It's not a technique that works (well, most the time), but it's been ingrained in our society as OK at a young age. Most guys who do it convince you that they're doing the world a favor by letting these women they're beautiful ("I wish someone told me I was handsome", pretty common argument), but the reality is they're only doing it because they're hoping to get their beaks wet.
I don't know what I'm trying to convey, everything that I said has been expressed better by others. Either way, It's a lose-lose situation for anyone involved, the guy catcalling is having his feelings hurt (saying people don't like being rejected is an understatement), and the one being catcalled is uncomfortable (or worse).
VeteranGamer
Banned
You're wearing a fedora. That's a problem in itself
I actually had a funny experience about this. I don't cat call, but I remember going up to a girl and just telling her I had to say hi and tell her I thought she was really pretty, and she enjoyed it and told me that's how you talk to a girl in the street. Of course not every person is going to like it, but if you're respectful and mind that persons boundary, I don't see the issue. I think it's really a problem when you're just like "Hey SUGAR TITS, JUMP ON THIS D, Bitch"!
Like I never understood guys who approach like that. You're in public, why do you have to yell and put the women on the spot?
Like I never understood guys who approach like that. You're in public, why do you have to yell and put the women on the spot?
No. Some people just tell people what they think out loud. I get comment on my hair 2 to 5 times a week. It usually just stops at the nice hair. Same if I tell someone ''nice shoes or lipstick''
Yeesh, I don't give a fuck if the catcaller's feeling got hurt. Like Kerri said getting catcalled makes you feel small and anxious about your body. So the catcaller feels rejected, big woop
I quoted myself to give context to this post.
Here is the legal definition of harrassment:
harassment
(either harris-meant or huh-rass-meant) n. the act of systematic and/or continued unwanted and annoying actions of one party or a group, including threats and demands. The purposes may vary, including racial prejudice, personal malice, an attempt to force someone to quit a job or grant sexual favors, apply illegal pressure to collect a bill, or merely gain sadistic pleasure from making someone fearful or anxious.
The bolded is the main point of alot of this thread. Like I said in my original post, there are nuances. Someone said that whistling is harrassment, if the person that got whisteled to feels harrassed. This has no legal basis.
If a guy whistles, or makes a passing remark, in my opinion based on the legal definition of harassment, it is not harrassment. Now, if the same guy whistles, then proceeds to follow or continues making clearly unwanted remarks to the woman, htat is clear harrassment.
Failing to recognze this difference does nothing to help with the problem, in my view.
Krauser Kat
Member
This type of harassment is death by a thousand cuts. I dont think anyone in this thread is saying these guys need to be arrested or have legal action taken against them.
This does not negate that all the times someone whistles at a women are harassment to the woman, because those whistles are the 12th or 20th or 100th time its happened to them.
Also men (and the patriarchy) is a group of people pushing this onto women.
killdatninja
Banned
Oh no, the poor sexual harasser
I get it... poor choice of words, I'm not sympathizing for the sexual harasser, I'm just simply stating that the actual act of catcalling is a no-win situation for BOTH sides. The guy doing it is ignorant of his own feelings, he keeps getting rejected and doesn't take it well (he'll say some rude ass shit because he didn't get attention). Meanwhile he'll keep doing it other women, hurting others as well his own confidence/ego in the process. Does this mean I feel bad for the harasser? No, not at all... he caused this upon himself, but what I'm saying is that the actual act not only hurt the victim but his own feelings, therefore being a lose-lose situation for ANYONE involved. If that still reads as sympathizing for the sexual harasser then I'm still doing a poor job of expressing myself... I got nothing else I can elaborate on this subject. Catcalling is a fucked up thing to do (as I said in my previous post), I don't sympathize with the harasser and it's a lose-lose situation for all parties involved.
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