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Let's talk about the great blight: Psychopathy/Sociopathy

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Zaptruder

Banned
I recently read Robert Hare's book 'Without Conscience'. He's a leading psychologist on the issue of psychopathy, having devised the currently most used 'Hare Psychopathy Checklist'. The book is about psychopaths and the underawareness that people in general society have of the problem. He goes on to describe in detail what they are, what they're not, what they're capable (and incapable) of.

It's a very eye-opening book, because it elucidates in a very clear, insightful and unequivocal manner in how people can be so fucked up. You know all those news stories where we end up asking ourselves... how the fuck? How can a human being do something like this?

In many cases, it's because the perpetrator is psychopathic.

Anyway, let's talk about it, because society as a whole isn't really aware enough about this problem to understand the extent of its threat. I'll give a brief introduction into the problem as I understand it, what it's (or at least might be) like to be psychopathic, and perhaps spin out scenarios of what society would be like if we had better awareness/detection/solution for these individuals.


What is psychopathy?

Psychopathy/Sociopathy (Hare believes that they're interchangeable terms - while some other psychologists dispute that - citing a difference in the causality of the symptoms... but the symptoms between both classes are largely similar) is a poorly understood mental disorder that in succint terms, causes its sufferer to act like a giant wanton asshole. More specifically, they are people that have genetic developmental disorders in their emotional centres of their brain. Given that emotions play a large role in empathy, socialization and decision making, the damage to those areas leaves psychopaths in a large deficit when interacting with and been members of society.

Colloquially, the term psychopathy is reserved for application to the most heinous sorts of psychopaths. Crazed serial killers, that kill because they enjoy it. While it's important to note that psychopaths are indeed much more violent than both normal people and people in prison*, and that most (if not all) serial killers are psychopathic - that most psychopaths are not violent criminals... (or at least violent criminals that have been caught and entered into the system).

*I believe the stat is something like 40% of violent crimes committed by prison inmates are attributable to psychopaths, who represent around 10% of prison population... and in turn account for 0.5% of general population. I know I have the specific numbers off, but those figures are at roughly the right scales, which should provide you with an understanding of how problematic they are by numbers alone...

The point here is that, most psychopaths fly under the proverbial radar. They number 1 in 200 people in general population - enough for some 1.5 million of them in America. Enough so that most people probably know a psychopath or two, without realizing it. Giant, wanton assholes occupying all sorts of positions within society - because these people aren't mentally impaired in the traditional sense.

They're not slow, they're not dumb. But they are emotionally impaired. That doesn't mean they're stoic, it doesn't mean they're emotionally reserved - it means that they have problems with the emotional parts of their brain - an arrested development in the part of our brain that is fundamentally important to social interaction and development in normal people.

Because of this emotional impairment - most importantly, impairment to the emotional centres that provide fear - which in a normal person interacts with other cognitive developments to turn into discipline, respect, boundaries, understanding of long term consequences, etc... psychopaths are really difficult to 'teach' and 'rehabilitate'. They have a huge rate of recidivism (80%), and in the attempts to try teach and rehabilitate these people... by putting them through the same counselling sessions and group work sessions that normal people take, we don't actually help them - so much as equip them with more tools and a greater understanding of how to better manipulate us.

In terms of figuring out what a psychopath is - the Hare Psychopathy Checklist provides a number of personality traits, such as glibness, superficial charm, pathological lying, parasitic lifestyle, criminal versatility (I quite like the idea behind that one)... and that scoring a large number of these traits (rather than scoring highly in one or two, or even a few - some people are just assholes, even without developmental disorders) show a strong indication of psychopathy.

To find out more on (and get an overview this under-researched, underconsidered field), just goto wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy

The book I read - Robert Hare's authoritative book on psychopaths (written for the lay person, although widely cited by professionals).
http://www.amazon.com/dp/1572304510/?tag=neogaf0e-20


What's it like been a psychopath?

Full disclosure - these are my own views, synthesized from reading Hare's description of psychopaths and their developmental disorder. I find the analogy gives a chilling insight into people that would otherwise be difficult to empathize with.

Because of the developmental disorder of emotion in psychopaths, they don't develop a lot of important social cognitive traits that depends on that system been in place. Critically, psychopaths are lacking in empathy. They don't think about the position of others, because they can't really consider it. They don't understand sorrow, pain, fear, joy, loyalty, duty or any number of complex social emotions that we take for granted.

But curiously, one of the traits of psychopaths is that they're superficially charming. They're adept at social manipulation, despite their grave social deficit. Intuitively, you'd think that empathy would be critical in figuring out what people liked and what would be likeable.

The reason is - psychopaths view other human beings not as we view human beings... but as complex machines. Give them a certain input, and we'll get a certain output. It's strangely dehumanizing thinking about people that way... act a certain way, and we'll most likely act a certain way in return. Yet it's an effective and upon consideration a very true rule of thumb and describes human behaviour.

So by not giving a shit about other people, they can simply continue to test and iterate interactions with people until they get the desired responses out of them. Maximum compliance is a combination of superficial and glib charm, and startling violence. It's what humans respond to.

Think about situations where we interact with human-like objects that we think of as complex machines...

Video-games. Psychopaths treat other humans as though they were characters in a video-game. I know some of us feel bad doing stupid shit to video game characters... but I don't think many of us can say that we haven't experienced the thrill of doing bad shit to video game characters for our own cheap amusement. Especially in more realistic sandbox games like the GTA series - watching our characters sleep with then beat the crap out of hookers to get back 50 bucks. We do it because it *is* amusing. But also because they're video game characters. They don't feel anything. Or just think about all the crazy shit you did to NPCs in Skyrim.

Well, psychopaths know that humans are a little more complex then that. They may even acknowledge that the feelings of others are been hurt. But what they feel when interacting with another person, is not dissimilar to how you or I feel when interacting with a video game character.

Compounding the effectiveness of that analogy is that in video games, we have save and load functions. We often act out because we know that the consequences aren't permanent. We can simply reload before the stupid stuff, and we'll be fine. Obviously, psychopaths can't save or reload - but that ability, gives you an understanding of their inconsideration for long term consequences. The base emotion of fear that through complex cognitive interaction, turn into effective planning behaviour in normal people (i.e. fear of loss later is balanced against desire for gain now) never properly activates in psychopaths, leaving them with the inability to appreciate consequences beyond the immediate.

They don't care if killing the NPC pisses off the entire town. Or that people will react badly to their betrayal at a later point. If you're emotionally invested in them - as a parent, child, lover, person conned by their superficial charm... your intuitive reaction to be patient and give them more chances, will in most circumstances leave you open to continued abuse. If a videogame character kept giving you coins after abusing them/beating them, I think you might be tempted to continue doing the same as well. I know I would - treat them as a coin dispensing machine.


Psychopaths - disproportionately devastating on society

Given what you now know, you probably have an inkling of why it is so important to be aware of the idea of psychopaths. They are disproportionately deleterious to society.

Not just in terms of violent criminal behaviour (although they're definetly disproportionately deleterious there), but also in terms of white collar criminality. Studies have shown that psychopaths from upper social classes are less criminally violent... but are otherwise no less harmful or injurious to those around them. Although not stated explicitly by Hare - I'd suggest that this is due to the fact that upper social class psychopaths simply have more resources to directly engage in hedonistic behaviour (or whatever it is that they want to do), without having to resort to violence (if they can't charm, they pay - a poorer psychopath might attempt charm, then bash).

Point is, these guys can get educated... and they can get clued in to the power of money - move into areas of the economy that best suit their talents - their superficial charm, their lack of empathy. Roles like Lawyers, financial industries, etc.

In these positions, they can do really wanton damage. In these positions - the culture celebrates their selfishness - overall society celebrates their accomplishments - the wealth that they gain is all too often conflated as wealth that they generate.

Because of the lack of societal awareness of this issue, these guys can fly under the radar for much longer then they should. Finding their way into social niches that employ their strengths at the expense of others, or guarded by well meaning and patient friends and families.

But the biggest problem these guys create in my view... is that they sow discord, distrust and misunderstanding on human behaviour in society in general. Much of the misanthropic views on criminals (and indeed human nature in general) may stem from both the heinous nature of psychopathic crimes (microwaving babies, throwing bricks on them to shut them up, raping and killing, etc, etc), as well as the seeming inability to rehabilitate them.

If there was an understanding that there was a sizeable group of people that required us to treat them completely differently to other people - we would be able to properly provide the rehabilitation for those that could be rehabilitated (normal people in shitty circumstances), while properly isolating/treating differently (different rehabilitation/treatment procedures) the set that couldn't be.

Essentially, because these guys throw off our model of understanding human nature - they're the unaccounted for outlier, we fail to develop models of response and action that is appropriate to the two relatively discrete groups of them and everybody else.


Societal solutions for psychopaths

So the big thing about psychopaths is that they're almost alien to us as far as social interaction goes. In trying to help these guys, or rehabilitate them, or make them useful functioning members of society... we cannot apply models of normal learning and education to them. It would be like trying to teach a colorblind person to paint a rainbow - with blue, red, green.

Also worthwhile noting is that psychopathy is something that has a strong genetic component, that it 'expresses' (rather, emotional development fails to express) early on (4-5 yr old+).

Because of this, it would seem to me that it's very important to raise general societal awareness on the issue - and that people are willing and actively taking their children to be tested for psychopathy.

The emotionally unmalleable nature of psychopaths makes them difficult to educate, to teach, to create empathy and the necessary cognitive skills that make them functional social citizens. This early detection would allow parents and caretakers to realize early on what they're dealing with, so that they can take the appropriate steps to ready themselves and innur themselves to the unresponsive nature of psychopaths.

Further research is needed in order to figure out how to best treat this group of people - but knowing what we know here... it seems irresponsible, on a societal level, to let them roam freely, interact freely with the rest of the world.

At the very least, we need specialized institutions that have people trained specifically to deal with them - educational facilities, as well as incarceration and rehabilitation. I don't doubt that much of their more damaging traits could be quelled, given the appropriate interaction... but we won't get there without awareness and keen identification.

I feel... without the undue influence of undetected psychopaths operating within society, we may have a much clearer and lucid vision of the societal landscape. A much more positive world, unhindered by clever but obfuscatory people that are in it for themselves, because lack a shred of conscience.

Bonus Read through (or re-read) this thread...
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=465915&highlight=serial+killers
...and you'll have a spine-tingling feeling, an understanding, even an 'empathizing' of how these men could be as evil as they are.

Disclaimer:
I don't claim to be an expert on the subject matter of psychopathy. Rather, this is a dissemination of my understanding and thoughts after been introduced into the concept by Robert Hare's book. If there's dispute or debate, or you are able to better elucidate/clarify on various fine points, please do so. Always up for a good discussion.
 
If you're interested, there's a nice Late Night Live episode "Spending Time with a Psychopath" that has Hare on it, as well as filmmaker Ian Walker HERE.

Documentary film-maker Ian Walker says 'making a film about a psychopath is like poking a snake with a stick, you know they will hurt you, you just don't know exactly when or how badly.' Ian lives to tell the tale and is joined by Professor Robert Hare, who has been working in psychopathy research since the 1960s and created the Psychopathy Checklist, used internationally to recognise psychopaths.
 
There's a lighter read called "The Psychopath Test" by Jon Ronson, he's an investigative reporter that finds a lot of "psychopaths" working in very prominent positions in our economy.

Also, I've heard that some banks set psychometric tests for very high positions because psychopaths have the qualities to excel in finance.
 

FStop7

Banned
In some of the more controversial threads here and elsewhere I've seen what I would personally consider to be some displays of psychopathic and/or sociopathic behavior. At least if one were to take those types of posts at face value. The pronounced lack of empathy is what always stands out to me in those particular messages. It's that cold indifference that catches my attention. I think it's a lot more common than suspected. Of course there are varying degrees, too.

Oh hey, and this thread appears right on time to demonstrate my point. See if you can spot the psycho(s) in here: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=466965
 

Dead Man

Member
There's a lighter read called "The Psychopath Test" by Jon Ronson, he's an investigative reporter that finds a lot of "psychopaths" working in very prominent positions in our economy.

Also, I've heard that some banks set psychometric tests for very high positions because psychopaths have the qualities to excel in finance.

New Scientist had an article a few years ago about the high incidence of sociopathic traits in management positions, and the reasons so many sociopathic people can excel in business.
 
I think the best way to deal with psychopaths/sociopaths is to detect it at an early stage through regular health checks and just discreetly flag them in "the system" as potential psychopaths/sociopaths. It's always possible that what we consider to be a psychopath/sociopath at the age of 3-5 might be inaccurate, and that raised social awareness of psychopathy might actually result in people subconsciously acting in a different way when dealing with a child that's been diagnosed, and thus actually furthering them along the road towards a lack of empathy.

Basically, leave psychopaths/sociopaths alone to a degree. They unfortunately serve a purpose in our society at the moment, and until we get rid of the jobs that value egoism and emotional detachment we will always have our share of people with those specific qualities.

A better cure to sociopathy/psychopathy, is to cure our society.
 

IrishNinja

Member
good OP! best the question though - can you elaborate (or postulate) on these "models of response and action"? because you just got done saying:

They have a huge rate of recidivism (80%),

and a lot of your last paragraph paints a grim picture that - forgive me if im reading into this - reads like the solution would be camps, or something even more decisive.

Also, I've heard that some banks set psychometric tests for very high positions because psychopaths have the qualities to excel in finance.

there any info on this? that's pretty dark.

New Scientist had an article a few years ago about the high incidence of sociopathic traits in management positions, and the reasons so many sociopathic people can excel in business.

ah, that's something then - not that i don't see the link, but that said fields would actively seek the kind.
 
Another great radio snippet on the topic of psychopathy if you're interested.

The Psychopath in us all

A region of the brain known as the orbital frontal cortex regulates emotion. But there's a gender difference with men having a smaller volume. This helps explain why men commit more crime than women. The volume of the amygdala is important for the generation of emotions. White collar criminals have an advantage due to their brain volumes and wiring. Psychopaths show a reduction in the functioning of the amygdala. They have reduced emotional reaction. So why do we punish psychopaths harshly? They didn't ask to have smaller amygdalas and reduced emotional response to their actions. Adrian Raine asks if psychopaths lack fear, how useful is punishment?

It has traditionally been thought that psychopaths are all bad. Kevin Dutton says psychopaths can be fearless, ruthless, amoral and devious while still being charming, charismatic and persuasive. He says psychopaths are very good at persuasion due to a trait known as cold empathy. Our personalities are a mixture of elements with some turned up, and others turned down. There are jobs where high scores on the psychopathic spectrum can be advantageous, such as some areas of intricate, high risk surgery.
 

FStop7

Banned
I'm convinced this guy is a sociopath. I find him amusing, but I think everything he does is really just to amuse himself.

Fascinating OP.

Agreed. Habitual "trolling" and forceful, constant attempts to refocus the attention of others onto oneself, without regard, is pathetic.

This topic also hits on why I find the Third Reich to be fascinating to study. I really believe that the core Nazi leadership was a group of psychopaths/sociopaths who were drawn together and through various circumstances (often by appealing the the psychopathic/sociopathic side of human nature) were able to worm their way into control of a once powerful nation that was collectively desperate to become powerful again. The core group was even constantly trying to tear itself apart - constant infighting and attempts (some of them successful) to kill each other off, and yet again through circumstance it held together far too long.
 

Zaptruder

Banned
good OP! best the question though - can you elaborate (or postulate) on these "models of response and action"? because you just got done saying:

and a lot of your last paragraph paints a grim picture that - forgive me if im reading into this - reads like the solution would be camps, or something even more decisive.

Maybe not camps, but definetly track the shit out of them, keep them on a registry, give them special education, special prison/rehabilitation facilities, provide the people around them with the necessary resources to understand and deal with the problem.

Equipping their loved ones with the awareness that... won't stop them from been steamrolled by the dudes (because even Robert Hare gets charmed by some of these guys), but at least gives them a better fighting chance than without.

Maybe ban them from certain professions (lawyer, financiers, etc), where they have deleterious impact because of their positions of power - have those jobs require psychopathy checks.

I didn't include it in my OP... but psychopaths create a greater economic and social stress on society then all other mental illnesses put together. Makes sense if they're a huge proportion of the prison population, as well as holding numerous positions of power through their narcisstic, glib, superficial charms.
 

marrec

Banned
There's a lighter read called "The Psychopath Test" by Jon Ronson, he's an investigative reporter that finds a lot of "psychopaths" working in very prominent positions in our economy.

Also, I've heard that some banks set psychometric tests for very high positions because psychopaths have the qualities to excel in finance.

The Psychopath Test is as much a recrimination of Hare as it is an investigative report on Businessmen.

It's a fantastic read.
 

Zaptruder

Banned
Another great radio snippet on the topic of psychopathy if you're interested.

The Psychopath in us all

An important point to make here is that, most people meet a few check points on the psychopathy checklist.

This doesn't make them psychopaths. Hell, I qualify for a few of the points (or so I thought as I read the book) on the list, but not many of them - and on some important points, I was the complete opposite on. Rather, it's the confluence of many of those factors however gives a very strong indication of psychopathy.

Doubtless, individually, many of those traits can actually be very advantageous in people... but as a whole, it renders them socially deleterious agents that can cause ridiculous amounts of damage if people around them treat them like normal people.
 

FStop7

Banned
Prominent American leaders and businesspeople who display psychopathic tendencies:

Dick Cheney
Donald Rumsfeld
Steve Jobs
Ken Lay
Bernie Madoff

There's another thread that just started up talking about socially aggressive narcissism. Narcissism minus empathy is pretty much the same thing as what's being described in here. It all goes together.
 
Maybe not camps, but definetly track the shit out of them, keep them on a registry, give them special education, special prison/rehabilitation facilities, provide the people around them with the necessary resources to understand and deal with the problem.

Equipping their loved ones with the awareness that... won't stop them from been steamrolled by the dudes (because even Robert Hare gets charmed by some of these guys), but at least gives them a better fighting chance than without.

Maybe ban them from certain professions (lawyer, financiers, etc), where they have deleterious impact because of their positions of power - have those jobs require psychopathy checks.

I didn't include it in my OP... but psychopaths create a greater economic and social stress on society then all other mental illnesses put together. Makes sense if they're a huge proportion of the prison population, as well as holding numerous positions of power through their narcisstic, glib, superficial charms.



so you think there are objective psychopaths and non-psychopaths and that there are easy ways of separating the two?

Part of the problem is that psychopathy and sociopathy are rewarded to a certain extent by society. They're practically built in to the definition of capitalism and they have their place in social situations too.

It's interesting that you use lawyers as an example, considering clients want their attorney to do what it takes to win and generally want an aggressive asshole. There's demand for this kind of behavior. Maybe people say "oh yeah, it would be nice if less lawyers were lying assholes" but they're not gonna go for the calm, peaceful guy when it comes down to it.

It's clear when a psychopath has gone too far, but before they've murdered or committed some other fucked up crime, I don't think social sciences can tell the difference....which is why it would be totally fucked up to "track the shit out of them" considering there's no fool proof way to find out who is a psychopath and who isn't. Then again, it's always annoyed me how branches of social science seem to come to their conclusions in a very thick bubble.
 
there any info on this? that's pretty dark.

I can't remember if it was in the Ron Jonson book, or if it was something I read about at the same time. Someone mentioned Robert Hare, who is talked about in the book, and I did a google search for articles during the time of reading the book so maybe through that search I saw something.

Sorry for not being more accurate, but after reading that book I wouldn't think it was out of the realms of possibility, the book lays out the idea that being a psychopath is a route to success in our society.
 

danwarb

Member
I think the best way to deal with psychopaths/sociopaths is to detect it at an early stage through regular health checks and just discreetly flag them in "the system" as potential psychopaths/sociopaths. It's always possible that what we consider to be a psychopath/sociopath at the age of 3-5 might be inaccurate, and that raised social awareness of psychopathy might actually result in people subconsciously acting in a different way when dealing with a child that's been diagnosed, and thus actually furthering them along the road towards a lack of empathy.

Basically, leave psychopaths/sociopaths alone to a degree. They unfortunately serve a purpose in our society at the moment, and until we get rid of the jobs that value egoism and emotional detachment we will always have our share of people with those specific qualities.

A better cure to sociopathy/psychopathy, is to cure our society.
I think people like that are good at getting into those positions and play the part well, are ruthless, but they hide relatively poor performance by covering their tracks well and manipulating others.
 

Zaptruder

Banned
so you think there are objective psychopaths and non-psychopaths and that there are easy ways of separating the two?

Part of the problem is that psychopathy and sociopathy are rewarded to a certain extent by society. They're practically built in to the definition of capitalism and they have their place in social situations too.

It's interesting that you use lawyers as an example, considering clients want their attorney to do what it takes to win and generally want an aggressive asshole.

It's clear when a psychopath has gone too far, but before they've murdered or committed some other fucked up crime, I don't think social sciences can tell the difference....which is why it would be totally fucked up to "track the shit out of them" considering there's no fool proof way to find out who is a psychopath and who isn't.

The psychopathy check list has a decent degree of efficacy in determining psychopathy.

Raise awareness - parents that have children that express these symptoms repeatedly, or to a great degree are more willing to get them tested.

If there's a positive confirmation (it's not a sure thing, but rather an indicator of high likelihood), then continue to monitor and track, provide parents with the knowledge resources to guard against their problematic children, and even have them sent to schools where teachers are specifically trained to deal with kids like that.

If they improve upon subsequent tests, and it shakes out, then stop tracking - keep the flag, and move on.


No, there's no hard line certainty in determining a callous/emotionally unavailable/dickish person and a psychopath... but knowing what we know, it seems ludicrous to not take precautionary action on the issue.

I mean... there's certainly a rather thick line between letting them run wild and free (kinda as we are now), and sending them to concentration camps. I'm suggesting we should explore a place within that thick line, that is the continuum of possible actions dealing with the problem of psychopathy.
 

danwarb

Member
This is what I was remembering: 1 in 25 business leaders may be a psychopath.

The survey suggests psychopaths are actually poor managerial performers but are adept at climbing the corporate ladder because they can cover up their weaknesses by subtly charming superiors and subordinates.

This makes it almost impossible to distinguish between a genuinely talented team leader and a psychopath, Babiak said. Hare told Horizon: "The higher the psychopathy, the better they looked – lots of charisma and they talk a good line.

"But if you look at their actual performance and ratings as a team player and productively, it's dismal. Looked good, performed badly.

"You have to think of psychopaths as having at their disposal a very large repertoire of behaviours. So they can use charm, manipulation, intimidation, whatever is required.

"A psychopath can actually put themselves in your skin, intellectually not emotionally.

"They can tell what you're thinking, they can look at your body language, they can listen to what you're saying, but what they don't really do is feel what you feel.

"What this allows them to do is use words to manipulate and con and to interact with you without the baggage of feeling your pain."
 
The psychopathy check list has a decent degree of efficacy in determining psychopathy.

Raise awareness - parents that have children that express these symptoms repeatedly, or to a great degree are more willing to get them tested.

If there's a positive confirmation (it's not a sure thing, but rather an indicator of high likelihood), then continue to monitor and track, provide parents with the knowledge resources to guard against their problematic children, and even have them sent to schools where teachers are specifically trained to deal with kids like that.

If they improve upon subsequent tests, and it shakes out, then stop tracking - keep the flag, and move on.


No, there's no hard line certainty in determining a callous/emotionally unavailable/dickish person and a psychopath... but knowing what we know, it seems ludicrous to not take precautionary action on the issue.

I mean... there's certainly a rather thick line between letting them run wild and free (kinda as we are now), and sending them to concentration camps. I'm suggesting we should explore a place within that thick line, that is the continuum of possible actions dealing with the problem of psychopathy.



You're talking about having the parents doing the job of a psychiatrist. If you tell parents to start picking out traits, they're gonna confirmation-bias their kid straight to an insane asylum by the time the kid is a teenager.

Psychiatrists and other qualified individuals should diagnose these things and the idea of preventative measures against psychopaths is completely psychotic, imo. Might be even harder to diagnose a sociopath (two very different words, though they seem to be used interchangeably in this thread.)

Your ideas feel a bit like eugenics, to me.
 

duckroll

Member
Maybe not camps, but definetly track the shit out of them, keep them on a registry, give them special education, special prison/rehabilitation facilities, provide the people around them with the necessary resources to understand and deal with the problem.

Equipping their loved ones with the awareness that... won't stop them from been steamrolled by the dudes (because even Robert Hare gets charmed by some of these guys), but at least gives them a better fighting chance than without.

Maybe ban them from certain professions (lawyer, financiers, etc), where they have deleterious impact because of their positions of power - have those jobs require psychopathy checks.

I didn't include it in my OP... but psychopaths create a greater economic and social stress on society then all other mental illnesses put together. Makes sense if they're a huge proportion of the prison population, as well as holding numerous positions of power through their narcisstic, glib, superficial charms.

This sounds incredibly dangerous. I'm not sure I can ever support any sort of movement to isolate a group of people and turn society against them without any sort of definite proof of wrongdoing or without them voluntary seeking help.

This sounds like the X-Men argument where mutants should be registered, tracked, and identified clearly because WE MUST KNOW WHO THEY ARE, AND ABOVE ALL WHAT THEY CAN DO! :/
 
So basically you want to flag/register/watch/deny employment and isolate a group of people that have not committed any crime, (not giving a shit about your neighbour is not a crime...I hope) for the off chance that they may commit a crime in the future. Where have I heard this before?
What makes this different from tracking people based on race, place of origin religion?
The simple fact is there is nothing wrong with being a socio-path and untill someone has actually broken a law society should do nothing.
 

Zaptruder

Banned
You're talking about having the parents doing the job of a psychiatrist. If you tell parents to start picking out traits, they're gonna confirmation-bias their kid straight to an insane asylum by the time the kid is a teenager.

Psychiatrists and other qualified individuals should diagnose these things and the idea of preventative measures against psychopaths is completely psychotic, imo. Might be even harder to diagnose a sociopath (two very different words, though they seem to be used interchangeably in this thread.)

Your ideas feel a bit like eugenics, to me.

Not at all. I'm suggesting that parents and society be more aware, so that they can get their kids tested properly by psychiatrists.

There's no way I'd accept the efficacy of a psychopathy test administered by a lay person.

But that awareness does serve as a good front line detection mechanism. The real problem is where society conflates real mental issues with physiological basis to them as bad parenting, or 'growing pains'.


This sounds incredibly dangerous. I'm not sure I can ever support any sort of movement to isolate a group of people and turn society against them without any sort of definite proof of wrongdoing or without them voluntary seeking help.

This sounds like the X-Men argument where mutants should be registered, tracked, and identified clearly because WE MUST KNOW WHO THEY ARE, AND ABOVE ALL WHAT THEY CAN DO! :/

I don't think it's appropriate for society to turn against them any more than you do. But I also don't think it's appropriate to pretend that this isn't a thing. As far as I can tell, providing them with specialized instutitions that are specifically designed to cope with their developmental difficulties seems like a pretty decent, humane solution - not dissimilar to how we treat other's with developmental issues. But that of course requires a certain degree of awareness from people to get them into those institutions.

I mean... what's the other solution? As far as I can tell, you're saying, leave them alone until they break our laws?

Well, I suppose even taking action only then would be still more effective than what we're doing now, and not really recognizing the problem - diagnosing them, but not devising more appropriate solutions for them with people that are better trained to handle them.

So basically you want to flag/register/watch/deny employment and isolate a group of people that have not committed any crime, (not giving a shit about your neighbour is not a crime...I hope) for the off chance that they may commit a crime in the future. Where have I heard this before?
What makes this different from tracking people based on race, place of origin religion?
The simple fact is there is nothing wrong with being a socio-path and untill someone has actually broken a law society should do nothing.

Are you seriously equating psychopathy with race, place of origin or religion?

I'm really not advocating that we round them up and place them into concentration camps here guys. I'm literally saying that we need to provide them with institutions that are geared towards coping with them. Prisons and rehabilitation institutions at a minimum, but why reserve proactive treatment until they start committing harm where they're actually caught?. We can treat them better, and not like criminals, by ensuring that they receive a developmental environment that is tailored to them.


I don't doubt that my suggestions could benefit from further consideration and nuance... but can you really argue that inaction is the better route to take?
 

duckroll

Member
I mean... what's the other solution? As far as I can tell, you're saying, leave them alone until they break our laws?

Yes? I mean what are you suggesting? That people who have not broken any laws but who you SUSPECT might have a problem which COULD cause them to eventually do something illegal should be put in a difficult position against their will? Think about what you're saying.
 

danwarb

Member
There is no need to address the "issue" of psychopats, aside from applying standard law. Lack of empathy isn't illegal.

Hopefully it's treatable one day, so we don't have to just wait for a crime to be committed. Psychopaths don't know what they're missing.
 

bengraven

Member
I think you could almost formulate the percentages of our population with extreme psychopathic behavior. And I think it makes more sense that we are getting "more fucked up by the day" if you take into consideration population booms.

So let's say psychopaths are, and I'll be using an easy generous number, 1% of the population. As we reach toward the 7 billiion mark, our 1% says that there are 70 million psychopaths on the planet.

I can't remember why I was posting this because I had a larger argument to state (and I'm really tired and hung over), but regardless, this is why it doesn't shock me when we get "more fucked up by the day".

Note: I do believe that sociopathy is genetic in 90% of the cases whereas my formula is flawed if you take into consideration "normal people" pushed "over the edge". Then again, I do believe people under equal diress can come out differently based on their genetics - someone may be predisposed by genetic heritage to go insane from physical and mental trauma. Then you have to take into consideration the amount of psychopaths who can influence people who are predisposed to psychopathy into full sociopathic behavior.

Psychopathy/Sociopathy (Hare believes that they're interchangeable terms - while some other psychologists dispute that - citing a difference in the causality of the symptoms... but the symptoms between both classes are largely similar) is a poorly understood mental disorder that in succint terms, causes its sufferer to act like a giant wanton asshole.

I love your definition. I would have used "douche".


Yes? I mean what are you suggesting? That people who have not broken any laws but who you SUSPECT might have a problem which COULD cause them to eventually do something illegal should be put in a difficult position against their will? Think about what you're saying.

It shouldn't be illegal to be creepy, I agree.

That said, I think if a doctor were to diagnose someone with psychopathic behavior (far in the future where people can actually notice these things early and before harmful/illegal behavior) then maybe the doctor should be liable to at least notify him/her or...you know, no, I was going to say someone in an official office but that's crossing a lot of Orwellian lines possibly.
 
Not at all. I'm suggesting that parents and society be more aware, so that they can get their kids tested properly by psychiatrists.

There's no way I'd accept the efficacy of a psychopathy test administered by a lay person.

But that awareness does serve as a good front line detection mechanism. The real problem is where society conflates real mental issues with physiological basis to them as bad parenting, or 'growing pains'.



ok, maybe not administering the whole test, but even telling parents to "be aware" of these traits is going to end up scaring a lot of people and screwing up lives. You'll see how objective these traits are when 1000000 kids are reported as potential psychopaths because they destroyed an action figure or hit their little sister.
 

Zaptruder

Banned
Yes? I mean what are you suggesting? That people who have not broken any laws but who you SUSPECT might have a problem which COULD cause them to eventually do something illegal should be put in a difficult position against their will? Think about what you're saying.

Actually, I'm more suggesting that people that express considerable behaviourial problems should be tested for psychopathy and provided with the necessary resources and environments to best cope with the problem, before it gets out of hand.

I'm not saying that it's a good idea to test all kids out of the gate, and then throw them all in the pen given sneaking suspicions.

But rather that - we should be aware of the problem so that we can deal with it in a targeted manner that is appropriate to the difficulties of the condition. If you acted normal, but had the psychopathy gene in you... you simply wouldn't be suspected or flagged. If you start acting like a psychopath, you get examined, monitored, and treated for psychopathy if the problem persists (i.e. it's professionally determined that you're not just 'acting out', as kids are wont to do).

ok, maybe not administering the whole test, but even telling parents to "be aware" of these traits is going to end up scaring a lot of people and screwing up lives. You'll see how objective these traits are when 1000000 kids are reported as potential psychopaths because they destroyed an action figure or hit their little sister.

I'm sure there'd be enough dopey parents to think that given heightened awareness of the problem... but I also imagine (with considerable justification) that professionals trained in determining psychopathy would be able to sort the chaff from the wheat, so to speak.

I mean... in the scenario you're talking about, it's pretty much going to be - "Well, your son isn't psychopathic. Most kids just go through energetic and rebellious phases. He'll grow out of it - and if he doesn't, bring him back and we'll see if there's any changes. Have a nice day!"

But in the cases where it's not... wouldn't it be good to know about this, rather than reading a bunch of normal developmental manuals, tearing your hair out trying to figure out why you children are such unresponsive and deleterious shit bags? Feeling the guilt and uncertainty of not knowing why your son or daughter is behaving this way?
 

bengraven

Member
Actually, I'm more suggesting that people that express considerable behaviourial problems should be tested for psychopathy and provided with the necessary resources and environments to best cope with the problem, before it gets out of hand.

I'm not saying that it's a good idea to test all kids out of the gate, and then throw them all in the pen given sneaking suspicions.

But rather that - we should be aware of the problem so that we can deal with it in a targeted manner that is appropriate to the difficulties of the condition. If you acted normal, but had the psychopathy gene in you... you simply wouldn't be suspected or flagged. If you start acting like a psychopath, you get examined, monitored, and treated for psychopathy if the problem persists (i.e. it's professionally determined that you're not just 'acting out', as kids are wont to do).

So like how the government steps in if your child is developmentally disabled?
 

duckroll

Member
Actually, I'm more suggesting that people that express considerable behaviourial problems should be tested for psychopathy and provided with the necessary resources and environments to best cope with the problem, before it gets out of hand.

I'm not saying that it's a good idea to test all kids out of the gate, and then throw them all in the pen given sneaking suspicions.

But rather that - we should be aware of the problem so that we can deal with it in a targeted manner that is appropriate to the difficulties of the condition. If you acted normal, but had the psychopathy gene in you... you simply wouldn't be suspected or flagged. If you start acting like a psychopath, you get examined, monitored, and treated for psychopathy if the problem persists (i.e. it's professionally determined that you're not just 'acting out', as kids are wont to do).

What exactly is the definition for "acting normal" here? Who decides this? I'm really uncomfortable with the suggestion here. Should people who hit a bar every day after work be examined, monitored, and treated for alcoholism even if they don't drive while drunk or beat their girlfriends? At what point do you draw the line of forcing "help" on people who do not want it or need it?
 
Actually, I'm more suggesting that people that express considerable behaviourial problems should be tested for psychopathy and provided with the necessary resources and environments to best cope with the problem, before it gets out of hand.

I'm not saying that it's a good idea to test all kids out of the gate, and then throw them all in the pen given sneaking suspicions.

But rather that - we should be aware of the problem so that we can deal with it in a targeted manner that is appropriate to the difficulties of the condition. If you acted normal, but had the psychopathy gene in you... you simply wouldn't be suspected or flagged. If you start acting like a psychopath, you get examined, monitored, and treated for psychopathy if the problem persists (i.e. it's professionally determined that you're not just 'acting out', as kids are wont to do).



I get where you're coming from, but don't trust people-in-general enough to carry out your intentions to meet the stated goals, given the subjective nature of interpreting personality traits and complexities of social interaction. A.D.D. is a good example of people going overboard with self-diagnosis when they learn the general symptoms of a disorder. Predicting psychopathy has far worse ramifications if it were to get out of hand, which is why it's better to let people carry out their lives and intervene with a societal mechanism when they break the law or do something really crazy (otherwise, letting their own social circle handle the problem.)
 

Zaptruder

Banned
What exactly is the definition for "acting normal" here? Who decides this? I'm really uncomfortable with the suggestion here. Should people who hit a bar every day after work be examined, monitored, and treated for alcoholism even if they don't drive while drunk or beat their girlfriends? At what point do you draw the line of forcing "help" on people who do not want it or need it?

Uh... acting normal, as in not causing undue problems for others?

I mean, in other developmental disabilities, it's easier to detect and aid - in psychopathy, without the context of social interaction, development between a normal person and a psychopath would be the same.

In a social context, psychopathy will likely cause behaviourial problems. Enough behaviourial problems, or to a severe enough extent would flag a person for the psychopathy test.

The line that you're not crossing is forcing everyone to undergo a genetic marker test, or even take a psychological profile test - only those that are already exhibiting marked behaviourial problems.
 

BeesEight

Member
I can't help but notice that you seem to have downplayed the environmental effects important in the creation of psychopaths. This might be due to Hare's research, since I never got around to reading his books. Hare's research, inevitably, pulls from American statistics. But any research into crime will show a staggering disproportionate prevalence of criminal activity, especially violent criminal activity, in the United States compared to most other developer countries.

This goes doubly for psychopaths. I don't have the numbers with me, but the number of serial killers in America is more than four fold that of most other countries. So, even if we want to make the argument that psychopaths in other countries aren't kill, we at least know that there is some societal factor that makes them more a threat in America than in other parts of the world.

Course, a lot of this will be due to a lack of research.

I can't help but notice that you seem to conflate general psychopathy as an issue that needs to be fixed. Course, the original Psychopathy test relied heavily on criminal behaviour in order to receive a classification, but Hare certainly had to modifier it when he went about measuring CEOs and lawyers. So long as they don't commit crimes, psychopathy isn't any more damaging than any other mental disorder.

Your position for monitoring and testing children is incredibly chilling. First, the indicators for psychopathy in children is incredibly under tested. Most of it has been derived from anecdotal behaviours of identified psychopaths in their youth. Furthermore, as you've probably read, most psychopaths (by Hare's classic definition) will start breaking the law at a young age and with less severe criminal activity. A better time to test for psychopathy would be during these earlier stages before a psychopath escalates to more serious crimes. The high rate of recidivism would be a good indicator of who to test.

Finally, Psychopathy is an interesting "Mental Disorder." One of the primary components of a disorder is that it impacts and interferes with a person's day to day life. Think of a drug addict and how much of their time will be devoted to obtaining their drug into to maintain a normal level of functioning. Psychopaths, however, function just fine with their "disorder," moreso the lawyers and CEOs than the criminals (obviously). It is a classification by others for a perceived deficiency.

And every disorder will have a spectrum of severity amongst people. Just because someone shows glibness and a lack of empathy doesn't make them a terrible person in need of monitoring. Sure, it will interfere with them trying to forge a traditional relationship with a single individual but that certainly isn't a call for them to be watched by some system waiting for them to do one action to condemn them for life.
 

Zaptruder

Banned
I can't help but notice that you seem to have downplayed the environmental effects important in the creation of psychopaths. This might be due to Hare's research, since I never got around to reading his books. Hare's research, inevitably, pulls from American statistics. But any research into crime will show a staggering disproportionate prevalence of criminal activity, especially violent criminal activity, in the United States compared to most other developer countries.

This goes doubly for psychopaths. I don't have the numbers with me, but the number of serial killers in America is more than four fold that of most other countries. So, even if we want to make the argument that psychopaths in other countries aren't kill, we at least know that there is some societal factor that makes them more a threat in America than in other parts of the world.

Course, a lot of this will be due to a lack of research.

I can't help but notice that you seem to conflate general psychopathy as an issue that needs to be fixed. Course, the original Psychopathy test relied heavily on criminal behaviour in order to receive a classification, but Hare certainly had to modifier it when he went about measuring CEOs and lawyers. So long as they don't commit crimes, psychopathy isn't any more damaging than any other mental disorder.

Your position for monitoring and testing children is incredibly chilling. First, the indicators for psychopathy in children is incredibly under tested. Most of it has been derived from anecdotal behaviours of identified psychopaths in their youth. Furthermore, as you've probably read, most psychopaths (by Hare's classic definition) will start breaking the law at a young age and with less severe criminal activity. A better time to test for psychopathy would be during these earlier stages before a psychopath escalates to more serious crimes. The high rate of recidivism would be a good indicator of who to test.

Finally, Psychopathy is an interesting "Mental Disorder." One of the primary components of a disorder is that it impacts and interferes with a person's day to day life. Think of a drug addict and how much of their time will be devoted to obtaining their drug into to maintain a normal level of functioning. Psychopaths, however, function just fine with their "disorder," moreso the lawyers and CEOs than the criminals (obviously). It is a classification by others for a perceived deficiency.

And every disorder will have a spectrum of severity amongst people. Just because someone shows glibness and a lack of empathy doesn't make them a terrible person in need of monitoring. Sure, it will interfere with them trying to forge a traditional relationship with a single individual but that certainly isn't a call for them to be watched by some system waiting for them to do one action to condemn them for life.

Most of what you say is not unreasonable at all. A few of the points you mention are points I also mention (in particular that scoring positively on some points of psychopathy... is actually quite natural). But it does fail to capture the nuance of the points I'm propounding. Of course I probably didn't do a very good job initially of expressing my ideas - but you'll read in the various responses the qualifications and the details of what I actually do mean.

In that sense, what I'm saying isn't too out of line with what you're saying. i.e. children that start expressing probelmatic behaviour should be examined for psychopathy and be treated accordingly to the results.

As far as the banning them from lawyers and financial position comment goes - the key point to make is that they've got the qualities to make them superficially successful, combined with their self-interest and the culture that people in power can create (think Hitler, think Pol-Pot as some of the worst examples of psychopaths in power), it's really in our interest to issue this sort of psychological evaluation for careers and positions of power.

I mean, we already do it frequently with psychometric evaluations, testing the psychological makeup and aptitude of job seeker into various roles. It doesn't seem like a far, or unfair stretch to ensure that people that are in positions of power that have a large ffect on society, aren't charming, pathological liars that are in it for themselves, because they don't have the mental capacity to care for others.
 

duckroll

Member
As far as the banning them from lawyers and financial position comment goes - the key point to make is that they've got the qualities to make them superficially successful, combined with their self-interest and the culture that people in power can create (think Hitler, think Pol-Pot as some of the worst examples of psychopaths in power), it's really in our interest to issue this sort of psychological evaluation for careers and positions of power.

I mean, we already do it frequently with psychometric evaluations, testing the psychological makeup and aptitude of job seeker into various roles. It doesn't seem like a far, or unfair stretch to ensure that people that are in positions of power that have a large ffect on society, aren't charming, pathological liars that are in it for themselves, because they don't have the mental capacity to care for others.

This is a very, very disturbing post. I'm... really disturbed by it. I think I need to lie down for a while. >_<
 

abusori

Member
This is interesting and all, but your plan of basically tagging every supposedly suspicious person and stalking them for life is extreeeemely unsettling. Nobody should have shit done to them for being born with a condition unless they actually do something wrong.
 

Zaptruder

Banned
This is a very, very disturbing post. I'm... really disturbed by it. I think I need to lie down for a while. >_<

I'd be nice if you could elucidate on exactly why that's disturbing?

I suppose if we are to be fair, we should monitor those positions to ensure that not just psychopaths, but anyone that's a manipulatively pathological liar that's in it for themselves, that are superficially charming... should not be qualified for those positions.

I think it's not dissimilar to how we don't qualify people to positions like soldiers and drivers and astronauts if they don't have sufficient visual acuity.

I'll put my ideas in another manner, to clarify.

1. Society should be more aware of the problem of psychopathy.
2. We should have more professionals trained in the determination of psychopathy.
3. We should have social institutions that are designed to properly cope with psychopaths.
4. We should ensure that key positions in society are not susceptible to the abuse of psychopaths or similarly deleterious individuals.

Are any of those points objectionable in and of themselves?
 

BeesEight

Member
In that sense, what I'm saying isn't too out of line with what you're saying. i.e. children that start expressing probelmatic behaviour should be examined for psychopathy and be treated accordingly to the results.

Hm, I don't think I made myself clear. Testing psychopathy in children is a really, really untested field. I can't think of any studies that weren't retroactive for behavioural psychopathy patterns in kids. They almost always are taken by interviewing adult psychopaths and their families and finding similar traits amongst a whole group.

The issue with this approach is that it doesn't give any idea of children who perform similar actions and how they eventually grew up. In order for a test on children to be useful, you would have to perform a longitudinal study that would take many, many years.

For example, one indicator of childhood psychopathy is mistreatment/torture of animals. Giving the escalating nature of psychopathy, would you test children that torture bugs? The ones that torture pets and don't receive help are usually living in an environment where the parents wouldn't bring them in for testing in the first place.

As far as the banning them from lawyers and financial position comment goes - the key point to make is that they've got the qualities to make them superficially successful, combined with their self-interest and the culture that people in power can create (think Hitler, think Pol-Pot as some of the worst examples of psychopaths in power), it's really in our interest to issue this sort of psychological evaluation for careers and positions of power.

I mean, we already do it frequently with psychometric evaluations, testing the psychological makeup and aptitude of job seeker into various roles. It doesn't seem like a far, or unfair stretch to ensure that people that are in positions of power that have a large ffect on society, aren't charming, pathological liars that are in it for themselves, because they don't have the mental capacity to care for others.

Hm, I think you're going to have a hard sell trying to paint Hitler as a psychopath. The problem with retroactively identifying individuals from history is the bias of a modern perspective. However, Hitler pre-Nazi Germany does not have the historical record of typical psychopathic behaviour. He was only arrested for participating in an attempted revolution. He had very strong moral views. The only aspect he would score high on is charisma.

People can do terrible things without being a psychopath. Hitler is perhaps the best example of someone falling to the dangers of fascism and totalitarian power. He demonstrates more that anyone is capable of doing things that are absolutely unforgivable.

But he's not someone suffering from an unempathetic mental disorder.

This is interesting and all, but your plan of basically tagging every supposedly suspicious person and stalking them for life is extreeeemely unsettling. Nobody should have shit done to them for being born with a condition unless they actually do something wrong.

The genetic component hasn't been quantified either. It is highly unlikely that one is "born" a psychopath but that a combination of factors between environment and genes leads some people to developing psychopathy.
 
Sociopaths are a balance to an emotionally driven society. While they might have the capacity for evil, they can also serve well in high pressure situations where an average person would be more inclined to displace logic with emotions.

Highly emotional people commit crimes and do plenty of terrible things also.
 

duckroll

Member
I'd be nice if you could elucidate on exactly why that's disturbing?

I suppose if we are to be fair, we should monitor those positions to ensure that not just psychopaths, but anyone that's a manipulatively pathological liar that's in it for themselves, that are superficially charming... should not be qualified for those positions.

I think it's not dissimilar to how we don't qualify people to positions like soldiers and drivers and astronauts if they don't have sufficient visual acuity.

Because what you are suggesting that someone who someone considers a jackass should somehow be legally prohibited from getting gainful employment in something which he is qualified for and could excel at simply because it *cough* be bad for society and that they *might* hurt people in the process.

That's social control and profiling. It it allowing and encouraging people (these would be individuals, not a collective "we") to make a personal judgement on other individuals and decide if they are psychologically "fit" to "contribute to society". If you do not see how dangerous such a suggestion is, then you have way too much faith in society at large to begin with, and are probably naive enough to think that just because you have a solution to a problem which you think has benefits, that it can be practically applied. It cannot.

Having poor vision is not a judgement call. Saying that someone who exhibits what might be psychopathic behavior but has otherwise not committed any crime or wrongdoing is a judgement call.

Judgement calls should be made by potential employers based on their own set of requirements and values, and not something that is forced upon them by law based on a set of fixed generic definitions which create profiles.
 
Wasn't there that (questionable) study, that said serial killers kill on compulsion. Like OCD, and it could be tracked over time?

What I always wonder is how the narrow the terms down and give the characteristics to these groups. If all you have to study are the ones who got caught, what about the ones who didn't.
 

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
Because what you are suggesting that someone who someone considers a jackass should somehow be legally prohibited from getting gainful employment in something which he is qualified for and could excel at simply because it *cough* be bad for society and that they *might* hurt people in the process.

That's social control and profiling. It it allowing and encouraging people (these would be individuals, not a collective "we") to make a personal judgement on other individuals and decide if they are psychologically "fit" to "contribute to society". If you do not see how dangerous such a suggestion is, then you have way too much faith in society at large to begin with, and are probably naive enough to think that just because you have a solution to a problem which you think has benefits, that it can be practically applied. It cannot.

Having poor vision is not a judgement call. Saying that someone who exhibits what might be psychopathic behavior but has otherwise not committed any crime or wrongdoing is a judgement call.

Judgement calls should be made by potential employers based on their own set of requirements and values, and not something that is forced upon them by law based on a set of fixed generic definitions which create profiles.

You can't socially engineer a society at the macro level on the fly, but a couple of hundred years from now, a pregnant mom could simply take a pill to eliminate undesirable mental traits in a gestating fetus. Of course there will be desirable elements from problem traits too - what if, for example, inventors showed these traits? You could really hamstring a society by eliminating complicated interactions of traits.

And yes, it does sound a bit dystopian and Nazi, and creepy, but it's inevitable.
 

Zaptruder

Banned
Hm, I don't think I made myself clear. Testing psychopathy in children is a really, really untested field. I can't think of any studies that weren't retroactive for behavioural psychopathy patterns in kids. They almost always are taken by interviewing adult psychopaths and their families and finding similar traits amongst a whole group.

The issue with this approach is that it doesn't give any idea of children who perform similar actions and how they eventually grew up. In order for a test on children to be useful, you would have to perform a longitudinal study that would take many, many years.

For example, one indicator of childhood psychopathy is mistreatment/torture of animals. Giving the escalating nature of psychopathy, would you test children that torture bugs? The ones that torture pets and don't receive help are usually living in an environment where the parents wouldn't bring them in for testing in the first place.



Hm, I think you're going to have a hard sell trying to paint Hitler as a psychopath. The problem with retroactively identifying individuals from history is the bias of a modern perspective. However, Hitler pre-Nazi Germany does not have the historical record of typical psychopathic behaviour. He was only arrested for participating in an attempted revolution. He had very strong moral views. The only aspect he would score high on is charisma.

People can do terrible things without being a psychopath. Hitler is perhaps the best example of someone falling to the dangers of fascism and totalitarian power. He demonstrates more that anyone is capable of doing things that are absolutely unforgivable.

But he's not someone suffering from an unempathetic mental disorder.

Hitler was kinda a bad example. My point was more along the lines of - if people in power are evil, then the people under them will express their traits - will serve to extend their power and evil.

In essence, people under psychopaths, adopt the culture and the views of the psychopath - indirectly inflicting upon people problems that could've been guarded against by ensuring that those positions are helmed by acceptably pro-social people.


As far as the children side of it goes... there's less of a slippery slope than you might think. Using the killing of bugs as a flag is obviously absurd, given how common that is. On the other hand, killing cats and dogs - yeah, that is a note worthy flag.

Also, it's because of an under-examination and under-awareness of the problem of psychopathy, that such little data and research exists on children. The hesitation to consider that psychopathy is a genetic issue and thus something that exists early on, contributes to this poor understanding of the problem in children - when earlier identification would help not just society, but the psychopaths themselves.

The key difference between teething developmental issues and psychopathy is the lack of response to normal measures of socialization therapy.

If a child has behaviourial problems - you examine for psychopathy. If he rates highly, you continue monitoring him and his behaviour, attempt some therapy. If there's no response, then you have a fairly strong confirmation. You place the kid in a educational institution designed for psychopathy.

The key is that the latter isn't a prison - it's still a school. Except it's a school where teachers and staff have been specifically trained to deal with the difficult problems surrounding psychopathy. If the behaviour improves, according to the people that are trained to assess psychopathic improvement (as opposed to those that are not trained and are as a result, easier marks for psychopaths)... then you attempt resocialization into the greater community.


The key point to the 'isolation' is that... normal society simply does not have the tools and the capabilities of properly dealing with psychopathy. The tools that we use for everyone else, do not work on them. This distorting effect causes undue failures in our own system - we simply can't cast mould of action that is effective for dealing with the rest of society and psychopaths.

Ideally, with sufficient understanding of the problem and the appropriate solutions we will be able to adequately shape their behaviour so that they can become productive helpful members of society - rather than an under-examined and under-considered burden that they currently are.
 

duckroll

Member
The key point to the 'isolation' is that... normal society simply does not have the tools and the capabilities of properly dealing with psychopathy. The tools that we use for everyone else, do not work on them. This distorting effect causes undue failures in our own system - we simply can't cast mould of action that is effective for dealing with the rest of society and psychopaths.

It seems that you didn't really think this entire plan through, and hence you are suggesting extreme measures which won't fly in reality, because you can't think of anything better. That is the downfall of all systems which are intended for good purposes but not thought through in the long term.

If society now does not have the tools to deal with a problem properly, the solution is certainly not to deal with the problem improperly. :p
 

BeesEight

Member
Hitler was kinda a bad example. My point was more along the lines of - if people in power are evil, then the people under them will express their traits - will serve to extend their power and evil.

In essence, people under psychopaths, adopt the culture and the views of the psychopath - indirectly inflicting upon people problems that could've been guarded against by ensuring that those positions are helmed by acceptably pro-social people.

Ehhh... there is a lot of research about the psychology of authority. I don't think you can claim that everyone working under Hitler were psychopaths waiting for the right corrupt official to allow them to express their true nature. There were a lot of complex elements and systems that led to the creation of Nazi Germany and extrapolating from them is a really difficult task.

But take a look at Milgram's Experiment about how people will perform torture or murder under the perceived weight of an authority figure.

As far as the children side of it goes... there's less of a slippery slope than you might think. Using the killing of bugs as a flag is obviously absurd, given how common that is. On the other hand, killing cats and dogs - yeah, that is a note worthy flag.

But what are you testing for in these children?

I can't really think of any traits bar animal torture that aren't some component of the normal human development. All children lack empathy at some stage. All children are unable to understand the consequences of their actions at some point. All children are unable to plan for their future or make reasonable decisions based on a long term vision.

Also, it's because of an under-examination and under-awareness of the problem of psychopathy, that such little data and research exists on children. The hesitation to consider that psychopathy is a genetic issue and thus something that exists early on, contributes to this poor understanding of the problem in children - when earlier identification would help not just society, but the psychopaths themselves.

I agree that more research is necessary, especially in regards to how we are going to adjust our criminal system for this aspect. I also want to see the sociological components of the disorder examined so that some preventative measures can be taken.

The key difference between teething developmental issues and psychopathy is the lack of response to normal measures of socialization therapy.

Agreed.

If a child has behaviourial problems - you examine for psychopathy. If he rates highly, you continue monitoring him and his behaviour, attempt some therapy. If there's no response, then you have a fairly strong confirmation. You place the kid in a educational institution designed for psychopathy.

With so little research, we couldn't even make an educational system to address these children even if we were to take this stance. I don't think isolation is going to be effective, even if such a situation were to occur. Integration of the child with her peers, I feel, would be more successful than removing them altogether. They need to learn how to interact in a proper behaviour with those around them and I don't see how you can do that if you squirrel them away. Ultimately, psychopathy is a socializing disorder and I don't know how you would address that without the social interactions.
 
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