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[jaxword]

Regardless of what the data shows, there are a lot of things I won't do specifically because of the risk of death, and there are a lot of things I won't do specifically because of the risk of punishment. Whether the actions are against the law or not, the risk of experiencing negative consequences deters me from doing a ton of things. I suspect I am not alone in this.

I'm not even necessarily in favor of the death penalty, but I am recognizing the fact that stopping bad things from happening to me is indeed a motivator.

Congratulations, you're not a murderer. Now, do you think a murderer has the same action-consequence reasoning you do?

 

[ronito]

Sorry, I only have so many empathy dollars. I need to spend them on better people

 

[Gentleman Jack]

He prattles on about empathy and lethal injection and being a father and not once did he show contrition or acknowledge his horrific act against the victim, empathy for his victim, his victim's suffering or his victim's family.

All of which might account for the fact he was found guilty of murder. This is separate from the sentence he received, which a lot of people are allowed to object to, including him.

 

[KingGondo]

Regardless of what the data shows, there are a lot of things I won't do specifically because of the risk of death, and there are a lot of things I won't do specifically because of the risk of punishment. Whether the actions are against the law or not, the risk of experiencing negative consequences deters me from doing a ton of things. I suspect I am not alone in this.

I'm not even necessarily in favor of the death penalty, but I am recognizing the fact that stopping bad things from happening to me is indeed a motivator.

That is irrelevant to the discussion. Of course people avoid doing certain things because of possible negative consequences.

Unfortunately, murder is not a rational decision. It's driven by intense emotion, greed, mental illness, or the effects of drugs and alcohol (often in combination). You're applying a rational standard to an irrational crime.

The point is that the vast majority of criminologists (close to 90%) do not believe that the death penalty acts as a deterrent.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/files/DeterrenceStudy2009.pdf

 

[SamVimes]

Regardless of what the data shows, there are a lot of things I won't do specifically because of the risk of death, and there are a lot of things I won't do specifically because of the risk of punishment. Whether the actions are against the law or not, the risk of experiencing negative consequences deters me from doing a ton of things. I suspect I am not alone in this.

I'm not even necessarily in favor of the death penalty, but I am recognizing the fact that stopping bad things from happening to me is indeed a motivator.

"Regardless of reality here's some unrelated personal stuff that doesn't matter"

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Y'know what? I think when you're scheduled to die NEXT MONTH, you can pretty much think about whatever you like. If his thoughts are currently on his own circumstances I can't really say I blame him.

Y'know what? When you've murdered an innocent man I think you can pretty much bank on being punished for it. Now we as a society can debate what that punishment should be. But not him. He's not part of society. He lost that right when he murdered someone.

Them's the breaks...

 

[UncleSporky]

That is irrelevant to the discussion. Of course people avoid doing certain things because of possible negative consequences.

Unfortunately, murder is not a rational decision. It's driven by intense emotion, greed, mental illness, or the effects of drugs and alcohol (often in combination). You're applying a rational standard to an irrational crime.

The point is that the vast majority of criminologists (close to 90%) do not believe that the death penalty acts as a deterrent.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/files/DeterrenceStudy2009.pdf

That's cool. Just wanted to clarify that we're not saying that nothing can ever deter people. Deterrence itself works...but perhaps the death penalty doesn't deter murderers.

I don't think it's irrelevant to the discussion because you do have people showing up saying they feel deterred from murdering others or whatever, and they need to know that the argument isn't that NO deterrence works, just that this specific form doesn't.

"Regardless of reality here's some unrelated personal stuff that doesn't matter"

"Regardless of some highly specific data on one kind of deterrence, keep in mind that not all deterrence is ineffectual."

 

[Syph Medwes]

Still in the process of reading but does he provide an alternative for what he deems slavery? Or does he think prisoners should just be able to sit around all day and suck up taxpayer money.

Y'know what? When you've murdered an innocent man I think you can pretty much bank on being punished for it. Now we as a society can debate what that punishment should be. But not him. He's not part of society. He lost that right when he murdered someone.

Them's the breaks...

I agree with this sentiment.

 

[Koppai]

What he says on page 5 about black kids not knowing about their ancestors' slave history, is that true? Are kids in America not educated about slavery?

I guess some school districts may be trying to cover up the fact that slavery did occur back then. I remember learning about it in Middle School & High School.

When I was little I dressed up as Harriet Tubman for a class project like a Living Museum. I'm a white boy, I cannot imagine how black people may have felt about me portraying a black woman who was a slave now that I think about it. I'm surprised my parents even let me do it considering how racist they can be sometimes.

I think I was interested on the cocept of the "underground railroad" because I loved trains at the time and wanted to be a conductor. /has nothing to do with this thread.

The guy sounds well educated though, I guess they don't deprive you of books or media in prisons.

 

[KingGondo]

Y'know what? When you've murdered an innocent man I think you can pretty much bank on being punished for it. Now we as a society can debate what that punishment should be. But not him. He's not part of society. He lost that right when he murdered someone.

Them's the breaks...

The fact that he killed someone (in brutal fashion, even) doesn't make his thoughts irrelevant. I would even go so far as to say that as a death row inmate, his thoughts on the system are much more relevant than most.

I think he makes a lot of good points that are worth discussion. Dismissing his thoughts outright does a disservice to the serious issues at hand.

Still in the process of reading but does he provide an alternative for what he deems slavery? Or does he think prisoners should just be able to sit around all day and suck up taxpayer money.

Um... why don't you finish reading it before asking about the contents of the letter?

 

[ManDudeChild]

Some of his points are valid, but the source is suspect.

 

[Ingrate]

He deserves the death penalty for what he did.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

The fact that he killed someone (in brutal fashion, even) doesn't make his thoughts irrelevant. I would even go so far as to say that as a death row inmate, his thoughts on the system are much more relevant than most.

I think he makes a lot of good points that are worth discussion. Dismissing his thoughts outright does a disservice to the serious issue at hand.

I'm pointing out that he's the last person I'd take advice about the prison system from. He who doesn't even give a fuck to mention the man he murdered. He at least had all these years to contemplate what he did, his victim didn't. And all he can do is bitch about how tough it's been for him. You know who had it tougher? The dead guy with the slit throat.

 

[Oak]

A facinating read. I think that a lot of people here need to look past this mans apparant lack of remorse for his crime and look at the actual content of the letter.
Is it true that black people are only considered 3/5 of a human being in America?!

I personally do not condone the death penalty, and an argument that I often hear used for it is that it costs tax payers a lot of money to keep a prisoner locked up for a life sentance. Here he is claiming that prisons are actually returning profits based on the amount of prisoners it has. Can anyone confirm this is true?

 

[KingGondo]

I'm pointing out that he's the last person I'd take advice about the prison system from. He who doesn't even give a fuck to mention the man he murdered. He at least had all these years to contemplate what he did, his victim didn't. And all he can do is bitch about how tough it's been for him. You know who had it tougher? The dead guy with the slit throat.

He doesn't spend that much time addressing his personal situation--he spends much more time talking about the injustices of the criminal justice system at large, which are real and worth having a discussion about.

Feel free to personally dismiss him because of what he did, but you're not contributing much to the thread with posts that are the equivalent of "don't give a fuck what that piece of shit murderer says."

That simplistic sentiment is expressed plenty enough in death penalty threads and it only serves to cheapen the conversation.

Is it true that black people are only considered 3/5 of a human being in America?!

Not anymore, but:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-Fifths_Compromise

 

[Holy Order Sol]

Somehow I don't think one even needs to empathize with him specifically for this to make sense.

 

[soul creator]

A discussion of the Ray Jasper Death Row issue from a family member of the victim

 

[Halcyon]

A discussion of the Ray Jasper Death Row issue from a family member of the victim

This is who I feel empathy for. Fuck the guy on death row.

 

[BibiMaghoo]

That letter is quite touching, and relevant. I felt sorry for him when I finished.

Then I read what took place for him to be there. It was callous, premeditated, and unnecessary. He even later stated that the person he murdered was one of the nicest people he had ever met...

So yeah, as poignant as it was, he doesn't deserve to see freedom again. I don't agree with executing anyone, for anything, as I am in the camp that to kill someone instead of letting them live with the price of what they have done, is a mistake. It is not justice.

I wish him a speedy and painless end, which is more than the person he murdered received.

And before you say it, from my point of view, he did kill that man, even if the fatal wound was not delivered by him. He cut the guys throat, and so meant to kill him, and may well have done had others not intervened at his command. His letter suggests that he did not kill the man, but he may as well have from what occurred. He intended too, tried too, and instigated the blows that killed the man.

 

[Josh7289]

A discussion of the Ray Jasper Death Row issue from a family member of the victim

Thank you for that link.

Helps to see both sides to know that these debates are not black and white.

Here's my opinion once more: Empathy will improve the world. Everyone needs and deserves empathy. Note that empathy is very different from sympathy. You don't have to like Ray Jasper to recognize that he's still another person who has the same emotions as you do. It's important to avoid discounting an argument because you don't like the person who made it.

Ray Jasper did commit a heinous crime and does need to face the consequences, but I do not believe the state has the right to take the life of another person in punishment for a crime, just as people do not have the right to take the lives of one another. I do believe the state should provide an environment that would allow Jasper to be rehabilitated if possible, but barring that, at least treat him as another human being, albeit sealed off from the rest of society.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

He doesn't spend that much time addressing his personal situation--he spends much more time talking about the injustices of the criminal justice system at large, which are real and worth having a discussion about.

His entire indictment of the prison industrial complex stems from the fact that he put himself in it and it's about to put him down. That's fairly obvious...

And I agree with having a conversation but I don't agree with him being the bannerman for that conversation. There are better people to lead us through such a conversation without bias.

Feel free to personally dismiss him because of what he did, but you're not contributing much to the thread with posts that are the equivalent of "don't give a fuck what that piece of shit murderer says."

I didn't dismiss anything, despite your feelings on the matter. I said it's a conversation worth having. But I didn't read his words in a vacuum void of the circumstances that put him in prison in the first place. I just empathize with the victim more than I do him. That's just me. I've explained that so hop on down from that high horse and stop proclaiming yourself the one who gets to deem which posts contribute to this thread and which don't.

That simplistic sentiment is expressed plenty enough in death penalty threads and it only serves to cheapen the conversation.

"I disagree with you therefore your sentiment has no place in this conversation".

 

[Mammoth Jones]

A discussion of the Ray Jasper Death Row issue from a family member of the victim

I have to say to my fellow death penalty opponent friends. Keep up your fight. It is an honorable one. But do not use this man, Ray Jasper, as your spokesperson, as your example of why the death penalty should be abolished. The death penalty should be abolished because it is wrong to kill another human being. Not because a Medical Examiner said your knife wound did not cause immediate death. Ray Jasper is not worthy of your good and kind hearts. He has never accepted culpability or expressed remorse. He is responsible for viciously ending the life of "the nicest man he ever met." Responsible for ending the life of the nicest man my family ever met, David Mendoza Alejandro.

Pretty fucking much.

 

[alterno69]

A discussion of the Ray Jasper Death Row issue from a family member of the victim

So, this makes it clear Jasper is a little bit delusional if after all these years he still believes he did not kill Alejandro. He makes a valid point about the death penalty but i have no empathy for him. After reading both sides of the story it seems to me like he's still making excuses for what he did, putting the blame on others for what was clearly a premeditated act, the fact that he knew his victim and was his "friend" makes me sick, not that killing a stranger makes it les awful but still, what a scumbag. He does make a valid point for many young blacks but not for him.

 

[OG_Original Gamer]

He makes a good point about identity, I didn't learn about Marcus Garvey until my mom put my brother and I in a private school in South L.A named after him. The American school system didn't want us to know about him, Malcolm X, Nat Turner, the Black Panthers. Once I became aware of this history, I craved more information. White professor's, I'm assuming, thought it was necessary to limit our knowledge to just King, Fredrick Douglas, Crispus Addicks (probably spelled that wrong). Harriet Tubman to limited extent. Rosa Parks for not sitting in the back of the bus, because her feet hurt.

Even the many inventors, or the fact it was a black man that performed the first successful open heart surgery.

 

[Gentleman Jack]

A discussion of the Ray Jasper Death Row issue from a family member of the victim

During the trial somehow, apparently, the Defense team got the idea that some of our family might be opposed to the death penalty and called my father to the stand. Nothing my father said could help their defense. When they called me to the stand the defense attorney asked me what my thoughts on the death penalty were. I knew what he was doing. He was hoping I would confess my opposition to the death penalty, thus maybe sparing Ray Jasper's life. And I could not assist him in good conscience. I've thought often in the years since If I did the right thing. If, when push came to shove, I suppressed my own true thoughts in an effort to avenge David's murder. This is what happened. The defense asked me what my opinion of the death penalty was. And I said, "I don't think it's relevant what my opinion is."

Fucking hell

 

[jaded_up_]

Thank you for that link.

Helps to see both sides to know that these debates are not black and white.

Here's my opinion once more: Empathy will improve the world. Everyone needs and deserves empathy. Note that empathy is very different from sympathy. You don't have to like Ray Jasper to recognize that he's still another person who has the same emotions as you do. It's important to avoid discounting an argument because you don't like the person who made it.

Ray Jasper did commit a heinous crime and does need to face the consequences, but I do not believe the state has the right to take the life of another person in punishment for a crime, just as people do not have the right to take the lives of one another. I do believe the state should provide an environment that would allow Jasper to be rehabilitated if possible, but barring that, at least treat him as another human being, albeit sealed off from the rest of society.

Surely there is a line where we draw regarding who we show empathy to.. After all this time, Jasper is still pleading his innocence. That he's not a murder albeit the fact that he sliced open another man's throat and who would have undoubtedly died even if he didn't get stabbed 25 times. He takes the moral road for the most of his letter but tries to argue his innocence on a technicality. What a revolting human being.

I'm generally against the death penalty but can concede that in some situations, it should be allowed. This is one of those cases.

 

[Deleted member 47027]

Surely there is a line where we draw regarding who we show empathy to..

I don't know that there should be a line. I mean, ideally. For some people it's tough, but ideally I want to never stop being empathetic.

 

[Josh7289]

Surely there is a line where we draw regarding who we show empathy to.. After all this time, Jasper is still pleading his innocence. That he's not a murder albeit the fact that he sliced open another man's throat and who would have undoubtedly died even if he didn't get stabbed 25 times. He takes the moral road for the most of his letter but tries to argue his innocence on a technicality. What a revolting human being.

I'm generally against the death penalty but can concede that in some situations, it should be allowed. This is one of those cases.

No, there is no line. You may be confusing empathy with sympathy. Empathy is simply recognizing what someone else is feeling. Imagine yourself on death row, regardless of the reason. Imagine what you would feel. That is what people on death row really do feel. Only after really putting yourself in someone else's shoes can you begin to talk about their circumstances.

 

[Gentleman Jack]

Surely there is a line where we draw regarding who we show empathy to.. After all this time, Jasper is still pleading his innocence.

Empathy does not remove our ability to judge people guilty for crimes. Empathy should, on the other hand, guide our judgment on how to punish criminals. Executions are implements of vengeance, not justice, something that both the death row inmate and the family member of the victim agree upon. It's empathy that really drives that conclusion.

 

[alterno69]

I don't know that there should be a line. I mean, ideally. For some people it's tough, but ideally I want to never stop being empathetic.

Well i can put myself in the man's shoes and still think he is a monster and his letter only makes matters worse, trying to paint himself as a victim in some way, pretty fucking sick.

 

[jaded_up_]

I don't know that there should be a line. I mean, ideally. For some people it's tough, but ideally I want to never stop being empathetic.

I understand the concept behind what you're saying but man... how do you show empathy towards a guy who's arguing that he's not responsible for the death of a person because technically he didn't deliver the final blow even thought he slit the guy's throat wide open? How do you show empathy towards a rapist? Or a paedophile? Or a mass murderer? I can't place myself in their situation.. I can't comprehend their situation. If you're physiologically and psychologically fine, like in the case of Jasper, and the sole reason for your revolting act of murder by the way of stabbing a person 25 times and slitting his throat open is pure greed and the theft of his audio equipment.. I will have a hard time placing myself in your shoes. I will not judge you for that is not my place but nor will you have my empathy. There's little to be empathetic towards.

 

[Deleted member 47027]

I understand the concept behind what you're saying but man... how do you show empathy towards a guy who's arguing that he's not responsible for the death of a person because technically he didn't deliver the final blow even thought he slit the guy's throat wide open? How do you show empathy towards a rapist? Or a paedophile? Or a mass murderer? I can't place myself in their situation.. I can't comprehend their situation. If you're physiologically and psychologically fine, like in the case of Jasper, and the sole reason for your revolting act of murder by the way of stabbing a person 25 times and slitting his throat open is pure greed and the theft of his audio equipment.. I will have a hard time placing myself in your shoes. I will not judge you for that is not my place but nor will you have my empathy. There's little to be empathetic towards.

I dunno. You try. Whether you can or not doesn't matter, but your heart should try. I mean, don't get me wrong - that's some high horse shit, but I always hope to be a better person inside and I think empathy is the key, along with actions. But we're only human.

 

[jaded_up_]

No, there is no line. You may be confusing empathy with sympathy. Empathy is simply recognizing what someone else is feeling. Imagine yourself on death row, regardless of the reason. Imagine what you would feel. That is what people on death row really do feel. Only after really putting yourself in someone else's shoes can you begin to talk about their circumstances.

I have done that. I would accept the consequence that is my death for my action of brutally murdering another person/slitting another person's throat open for the reasons given. Is that not empathy? I know it's not the empathy that you and Jasper are looking for, but it is empathy nevertheless.

 

[Josh7289]

I understand the concept behind what you're saying but man... how do you show empathy towards a guy who's arguing that he's not responsible for the death of a person because technically he didn't deliver the final blow even thought he slit the guy's throat wide open? How do you show empathy towards a rapist? Or a paedophile? Or a mass murderer? I can't place myself in their situation.. I can't comprehend their situation. If you're physiologically and psychologically fine, like in the case of Jasper, and the sole reason for your revolting act of murder by the way of stabbing a person 25 times and slitting his throat open is pure greed and the theft of his audio equipment.. I will have a hard time placing myself in your shoes. I will not judge you for that is not my place but nor will you have my empathy. There's little to be empathetic towards.

Just because their situation isn't the exact same as yours doesn't mean you can't show empathy. It's hard to explain about this generally because everyone's situation is different, but if you know all the details of someone's life, it becomes rather easy to think about what it would be like to be them.

I have done that. I would accept the consequence that is my death for my action of brutally murdering another person/slitting another person's throat open for the reasons given. Is that not empathy? I know it's not the empathy that you and Jasper are looking for, but it is empathy nevertheless.

I'm not sure what "empathy" you think I'm looking for. There is only one empathy. You said you couldn't feel empathy for him, which didn't make sense because empathy is universal.

 

[Purexed]

While I agree with many of Jasper's points about the judicial system being fundamentally stacked against minority groups, it's a damn shame that Jasper is the one sounding the bell given the nature of his crime.

It's very difficult to separate the message from the messenger in this case.

 

[djplaeskool]

He's most definitely not wrong in a lot of what he wrote, especially when it comes to the PIC. Regardless, there are many people more deserving of efforts to raise awareness.

Surely there is a line where we draw regarding who we show empathy to.

There shouldn't be, but god damn is it hard to erase it sometimes.
Case in point: Ray Jasper.

 

[OG_Original Gamer]

His entire indictment of the prison industrial complex stems from the fact that he put himself in it and it's about to put him down. That's fairly obvious...

And I agree with having a conversation but I don't agree with him being the bannerman for that conversation. There are better people to lead us through such a conversation without bias.



I didn't dismiss anything, despite your feelings on the matter. I said it's a conversation worth having. But I didn't read his words in a vacuum void of the circumstances that put him in prison in the first place. I just empathize with the victim more than I do him. That's just me. I've explained that so hop on down from that high horse and stop proclaiming yourself the one who gets to deem which posts contribute to this thread and which don't.



"I disagree with you therefore your sentiment has no place in this conversation".

Valid points are valid points, I would expect him to pay for his crimes. He can never be the bannerman for anything other than having some valid points. Most of the people participating in this thread, will soon forget about this thread and Ray Jasper. His letter is just one of many to spark discussion about race, class, education, crime, punishment, and the justice system.

 

[jaded_up_]

Empathy does not remove our ability to judge people guilty for crimes. Empathy should, on the other hand, guide our judgment on how to punish criminals. Executions are implements of vengeance, not justice, something that both the death row inmate and the family member of the victim agree upon. It's empathy that really drives that conclusion.

I disagree. Executions can also implements of justice because what is justice apart from just behaviour or treatment? Why can it not be just behaviour that, if you took someone else 's life, you forfeit yours? A consequence for your action without any connotations regarding vengeance or rehabilitation or whatever else.

 

[Ravensmash]

I'm actually not pro-capital punishment but I do understand why some people support it.

I don't understand why these sort of discussions always level down to whether it acts as a deterrent or rehabilitation. What about it people simply viewing it as a punishment? Should a serial killer be given a second chance?

 

[jaded_up_]

I'm not sure what "empathy" you think I'm looking for. There is only one empathy. You said you couldn't feel empathy for him, which didn't make sense because empathy is universal.

I don't know why I referred to you, forget that part. I should have just mentioned Jasper.

Jasper's want of empathy comes across in the manner that he wants people to understand his situation.. and understand where he's coming from and why things have transpired the way they did with him. And, in a sense, get some sort of justification for his action. It is this kind of empathy I have trouble formulating for Jasper. Idk. Maybe I'm getting terms confused.

 

[Gentleman Jack]

It's a damn shame that Jasper is the one sounding the bell given the nature of his crime.

I doubt he's alone, he's just getting the attention in this particular thread. Gawker has been doing this feature for a while. If nothing else, it's food for thought on how and to whom the death penalty is getting handed out.

I disagree. Executions can also implements of justice because what is justice apart from just behaviour or treatment? Why can it not be just behaviour that, if you took someone else 's life, you forfeit yours? A consequence for your action without any connotations regarding vengeance or rehabilitation or whatever else.

If you read what the victim's family member wrote you'll see him say it: He refused to testify about his feelings on the death penalty out of a desire to avenge his brother, and how Jasper's ultimate fate made little to no difference to the pain his family feels from the loss of the victim. This isn't justice.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Valid points are valid points, I would expect him to pay for his crimes. He can never be the bannerman for anything other than having some valid points. Most of the people participating in this thread, will soon forget about this thread and Ray Jasper. His letter is just one of many to spark discussion about race, class, education, crime, punishment, and the justice system.

The problem I have is Ray Jasper is just regurgitating truths that better man than him have touched upon in an effort to engender sympathy for himself while simultaneously avoiding responsibility for the actions that put him there. He wants people to feel sympathy for him while refusing to feel sympathy for the man he murdered.

If Ray Jasper made these statements from a place of true repentance I'd be more willing to feel compassion for the man and his circumstance. Because at least he'd be a changed man. But without the remorse his words ring hollow and show me that he hasn't learned a thing...

 

[captmcblack]

A fascinating letter. I found the stuff about black kids and education to be the most interesting because it seems to be an area that is (possibly but knowing America probably not) fixable. I think the question of how to engage young black kids is one of the most important facing your country, and not addressing it means alienating and disenfranchising a large part of an entire generation.

That said, I don't agree with his point about black culture needing to be more separate from white culture and defined more along African roots. I think this hurts black people more than helps them. Slavery or not, if a family has lived here for generations and hundreds of years, those kids are American and they need to be more included in American culture, not taking steps to define themselves as 'other'. The more culturally segregated blacks and whites become, the less chance there is of there being true empathy between the races in either direction. It's not just black kids who need to learn black history, it's everyone.

The scary thing is, I don't even know if it is possible to re-engage those left out of the mainstream at this point. It feels like it's gone too far. Massive swathes of people with barely rudimentary education. Institutional racism in the police, poor black people grouped together in neighborhoods and ghettos. Crime, not education, portrayed in media as a way out. How do you fix that?

This is basically how I feel about this letter.
I can't ride with him specifically as the flag-bearer for the points he made in his letter, but the points he made in this letter are on-point for the most part.

The way to providence is definitely that education portion - but not only does it have to be black kids that are made aware of things, it's everyone. Every kid should have to have a "black history" thing...or at least, some kind of history class that makes sure to teach about US ethnic history in detail for a semester (or a year), and it should do that uniformly across all curricula in each state. Every 5th grade US history/social studies class should be this, or every 8th grade one, or something like that - just to make sure that young students in America know in detail about Native Americans, and black slavery, and so on.

Anyway, this was a very interesting letter.

 

[Zaptruder]

I'm generally against the death penalty but can concede that in some situations, it should be allowed. This is one of those cases.

Setting aside the fact that allowing the death penalty opens the doors to the execution of innocents, setting aside the fact that the death penalty is exceedingly costly, setting aside the fact that it is an exceedingly poor deterrent... the death penalty is a signal by society that it's ok to be vengeful. That 'some people' should die under the 'right circumstances'. That not all human life is equal, and that not all deserve life.

Maybe it's just me... but I think society should enshrine laws for people to aspire to, rather than laws that cater to their base instincts.

The people we elect, the courts and laws and the system should be comprised of our most capable, and provide the best outcomes. They should remind us to be more than what we are.

As an exercise of empathy - try to empathize with people in societies that don't have the death penalty. Why do they think that way? And what knock on consequences does that have for how they view the value of human life? What kind of assumptions are made and conversations are made in those places?

In a society that values all human life less through whatever combination of factors... do you think the least of such society would be more inclined or less inclined to take the life of another?

 

[Sub_Level]

I disagree, if you are going to kill someone as a deterrent make it as painful, humiliating and prolonged as possible. Also make it mandatory to be shown statewide on TV and radio. Killing someone shouldn't be easy and forgatable.

I disagree. By televising stuff like that you're only glorifying the violence and the perpetrators themselves by giving them more attention. No amount of physical trauma will deter some of these lunatics. The death penalty is first and foremost about the concept "eye for an eye". If it deters people, great. If not, at least the lunatic is dead. Might be ok with something like a public hanging. Read what the perp did, have a bag on his or her head, and let the body drop. Has to be quick and non-dramatic.

There is no way to kill someone without pain being felt. Your natural inclination is to fight death and your body will let you know it.

Yes, but there's more proven methods than lethal injection. More effective AND cheaper.

Or how about no death penalty at all?

Laws aren't there to carry medieval punishment towards those who commit criminal acts; they're there to protect those who follows those rules. I don't see how spending tons of money and time in a bureaucratic manner to execute someone protects anyone outside of it.

Innocent until proven guilty, then put into a rehabilitating prison that can make sure they can maybe one day serve the community in a helpful manner. If they can't be rehabilitated, let them stay there in the name of civility and human rights.

The money and time spent is more symptomatic of HOW the death penalty is carried out in this country, not the form of punishment itself. And speaking of time and money, I don't see how keeping a truly heinous individual alive serves the causes of civility and human rights.

 

[Gentleman Jack]

I disagree. By televising stuff like that you're only glorifying the violence and the perpetrators themselves by giving them more attention. No amount of physical trauma will deter some of these lunatics. The death penalty is first and foremost about the concept "eye for an eye". If it deters people, great. If not, at least the lunatic is dead. Might be ok with something like a public hanging. Read what the perp did, have a bag on his or her head, and let the body drop. Has to be quick and non-dramatic.



Yes, but there's more proven methods than lethal injection. More effective AND cheaper.



The money and time spent is more symptomatic of HOW the death penalty is carried out in this country, not the form of punishment itself. And speaking of time and money, I don't see how keeping a truly heinous individual alive serves the causes of civility and human rights.

This is pretty bloodthirsty stuff, man

 

[Kai Dracon]

I'm actually not pro-capital punishment but I do understand why some people support it.

I don't understand why these sort of discussions always level down to whether it acts as a deterrent or rehabilitation. What about it people simply viewing it as a punishment? Should a serial killer be given a second chance?

The way I tend to see it, "rehabilitation" doesn't necessarily mean "destined to be turned loose again in society". The ethical thing is to treat everyone fairly, regardless of our emotional reactions. (Like saying "PIECE OF SHIT DESERVES TO DIE." And walking away, not thinking about it any further.)

This means the serial killer gets the same treatment as everyone else, is examined, understood, and in the end - maybe judged not safe to turn loose from incarceration. But the point is to learn about why people do things and how to prevent one more from the same fate down the road.

Revenge-based eye-for-an-eye reasoning makes people feel like they're seething for justice and punishing the guilty. And it's a perfectly understandable, human reaction. But it may not be what's best for building a better society. That kind of thinking tends to make people see the world very, very simplistically. There are good and evil people and evil will always be evil, born to be destroyed by the good guys.

 

[Dyno]

There are two issues here and they can be separated.

Jasper's view of his crime - this view can be labelled as bias in the extreme. Jasper chooses to be less than transparent when it comes to the things that he did. It's expected and if you chose to discard Jasper's outlook on this stuff there is lots of things that add strength to his argument.

Jasper's view of society and prison life - this is not the same thing. Jasper is actually quite an articulate observer of what goes on around him and it's valuable he's plainly spelling out things that we do not see every day but know to be true.

What he says about himself may lack merit but what he says about the world we live in certainly does.

 

[KingGondo]

His entire indictment of the prison industrial complex stems from the fact that he put himself in it and it's about to put him down. That's fairly obvious...

And I agree with having a conversation but I don't agree with him being the bannerman for that conversation. There are better people to lead us through such a conversation without bias.

My frustration stems from the fact that death penalty threads on GAF are always derailed by a flood of posters expressing more or less the same sentiment: ":lol like I'd listen to this piece of shit, he deserves to die!"

I've always said in these threads that I agree that some have given up their right to live by the acts they commit, but that the system by which we carry out convictions and executions is so hopelessly flawed that I'm against the death penalty as a practical matter.

I'd even go so far as to say that Jasper is one of those who could be executed without moral reservations. His guilt is virtually 100% certain, and his crime was calculated and vicious. I agree that he's probably a sociopath who uses the broad problems with the justice system to rationalize his terrible behavior and make himself feel like a victim.

That doesn't mean that his points don't merit discussion, or that we can't discuss the death penalty in a reasoned fashion in this thread.

I didn't dismiss anything, despite your feelings on the matter. I said it's a conversation worth having. But I didn't read his words in a vacuum void of the circumstances that put him in prison in the first place. I just empathize with the victim more than I do him. That's just me.

You did though. Your posts can be summed up as "he makes some good points, but I'm not wasting any breath on them because he's a piece of shit."

I've explained that so hop on down from that high horse and stop proclaiming yourself the one who gets to deem which posts contribute to this thread and which don't.

"I disagree with you therefore your sentiment has no place in this conversation".

I'm not a mod, I'm just pointing out posts that in my humble estimation contribute nothing of substance.

This is supposed to be a discussion forum, and many posts in this thread are keeping a civil, open discussion from happening.

 

[Angelus Errare]

Some of you guys are like a hop and skip away from being killers going by the shit I'm reading.

Guy made great points. People who are uncomfortable with them will focus on the crime he committed.

You can say "fuck this guy" for what he did, and what he did is abhorrent, but you're ignoring the larger picture (practically everything he mentioned) and are going to keep supporting a system that will produce a large number of criminals. The hard part is looking beyond what these criminals have done, and thinking "why have they done this?" "What will stop their kids doing the same thing?" (not killing their parents for a start).

This.