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LGBT representation in video games. Is there a way to do it right, or are western devs forever going to suck at it?
- Thread starter Crystal Winters
- Start date
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
I think most of these affirmative action initiatives are meant well.... to help those 5% of people in the country kind of thing.
Problem is when it goes on forever, it just pisses off the other 95%. And often those 5% crowd are loud, annoying and try to grab even more. So it pisses off the masses more so.
And like any free rides in life, once it's handed out, it's hard to claw back because if the gov or company does then they look like Scroogey haters. So they are pressured to keep it going, especially if everyone else does. But you can see with a lot of businesses and products failing, once one company says forget it, THEN other companies will follow. It always takes one person or company to take the first step, then others copy.
The funny thing is at face value, DEI-ish policies like hiring quotas are as discriminatory as can be. It's no different than 80 years and some business in Mississippi says a good natured and qualified Black guy cant get a job because a dumbass White guy gets priority. But instead of it being cruel with the Black guy getting yelled at with his application thrown in the garbage where it's blatant racism, if it's coddled and massaged into corporate policies, ratios, and given nice names like DEI terms than it sounds better. But in reality it's same thing as slamming a door into a better candidate's face like way back. it's just done in a more professional way. Governments are to blame too since they support it, even with federal contracts dependent on companies proving DEI stats. So government actually kind of loves it.
I dont know how that really changed lately as I think the US gov shot down AA kind of stuff. But it's not like it's going to 100% go away.
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Idleyes
Member
Affirmative action isn’t a free ride. That's an old baseless trope. It’s designed to open doors that were historically closed to certain groups. Once the door is open, you still have to do the work waiting for you on the other side. People who assume every brown person in a high position is just there as a placeholder are confusing individuals who worked hard to earn their roles with those who got their positions handed to them through nepotism or favoritism. It’s not the same.
I, for one, can’t wait for the day we no longer need affirmative action. Honestly, I hate the fact that a policy like it had to exist. I hate the policy itself beyond measure. Regrettably, because there are idiots in this century who still believing it's a free ride, it won’t be going away anytime soon.
I, for one, can’t wait for the day we no longer need affirmative action. Honestly, I hate the fact that a policy like it had to exist. I hate the policy itself beyond measure. Regrettably, because there are idiots in this century who still believing it's a free ride, it won’t be going away anytime soon.
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xpresstuning
Member
You know what's interesting about these "DEI" policies? White people (european ancestry) are between 7% and 9% of the entire global population; a very small minority. White children are less than 3%, and steadily declining. You'd think, given every single news outlet and "progressive" ideology mouth-pieces out there, that white people are a majority.
Another interesting fact is that only countries of european ancestry have opened up and aggressively pushed for "inclusion" via "DEI" policies.
You go in India or anywhere in Africa, the middle-East, etc. as a white individual of european ancestry. And you'll not only be met with rampant racism; That's putting it mildly.
S0ULZB0URNE
Member
Evil things are a part of entertainment.Its not a character you use, its an integral part of the game’s lore.
This just proves that its pretty much unaviodable
Not being forced to use certain characters is different.
simpatico
Member
It's important the people clamoring for this find a way to stop desperately requiring external validation. The level of "ick" regular people experience when they hear it is indescribable. We get it. You've got a sexual preference. It doesn't have to be your personality and lifestyle. There's a deadly cycle of baseless affirmation in those communities that just push their members further and further from reality and into some really psychologically dangerous waters. When they get so far down the path and realize all the affirmation they got was from either predators or other confused people who didn't really have the clout to reasonably affirm someone, they realize they've gone so far that there's no going back. I've seen it happen to people I was close to. Just like the sex stuff you like and go on with your life.
N1tr0sOx1d3
Given another chance
LGBT representation in video games. Is there a way to do it right?
Absolutely!!!!
FF:Enhanced_Reality
Member
Well you seem pretty cool. All the best to you.
Crystal Winters
Member
Same to you and thank you very much.
Darkmakaimura
Can You Imagine What SureAI Is Going To Do With Garfield?
I would like to see a trans woman character if they do it right. Make her actually attractive and not butch. Make her likable and appealing to people in general.
Bridget from Guilty Gear is a little bit loli but a decent example, I suppose.
Bridget from Guilty Gear is a little bit loli but a decent example, I suppose.
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Fess
Member
It’s a big planet. Don’t assume everybody goes around thinking any of this is in any way important at all.
Include a progressivity slider in the options menu, then people living in areas where this is common can increase it and those living in areas where it’s not a thing can decrease it until it seems realistic.
I don’t live in a progressive area. I’ve never met a lesbian in my whole life, I’ve heard rumors of a kid at my kids school having 2 moms but that’s about as close as I’ve come. So from my perspective it is absolutely absurd to make a female main protagonist lesbian. I mean what are the odds that of all people this particular person who saves the day in a video game is also an ultra rare lesbian?
And I’ve never even seen a trans in real life. I saw a cross dresser once but that’s it. And I possibly know one gay person irl but tbh I’m not entirely sure, it’s all based on rumors and making assumptions.
So maybe do representation like that? Rare and not in your face obvious and tweakable for those living in progressive areas. And no lecturing, just be casual about it.
Include a progressivity slider in the options menu, then people living in areas where this is common can increase it and those living in areas where it’s not a thing can decrease it until it seems realistic.
I don’t live in a progressive area. I’ve never met a lesbian in my whole life, I’ve heard rumors of a kid at my kids school having 2 moms but that’s about as close as I’ve come. So from my perspective it is absolutely absurd to make a female main protagonist lesbian. I mean what are the odds that of all people this particular person who saves the day in a video game is also an ultra rare lesbian?
And I’ve never even seen a trans in real life. I saw a cross dresser once but that’s it. And I possibly know one gay person irl but tbh I’m not entirely sure, it’s all based on rumors and making assumptions.
So maybe do representation like that? Rare and not in your face obvious and tweakable for those living in progressive areas. And no lecturing, just be casual about it.
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Kacho
Gold Member
So are you looking at your post history
realcool
Member
Full disclosure: I don't think LGBT representation is necessary, and I don't want Western devs to find "a way to do it right" as I want them not to do it at all.
But a fair example of a way to do it (mostly) right and a way to do it wrong is the depictions of Bill and Frank from the Last of Us video game compared to the HBO adaptation.
The video game leads you to believe that Bill, a tightly wound survivalist, merely had a falling out with his former cohort, Frank. It's ambiguous until the climax of the chapter, and then it is unnecessarily spelled out directly afterward with a gag by Ellie. There was an inexplicable insistence by the writers to completely undo the ambiguity that led up to them using Ellie as a billboard to proudly proclaim "...and he was GAY! THE WHOLE! TIME!" But, overall, I feel like the Bill's Town chapter is an okay example of how this could be handled. Not great, but okay. However, the main issue persists: the homosexuality aspect is ultimately unnecessary to begin with. Would it change anything if Bill and Frank were instead a heterosexual male and female?
Which brings us to the wrong way of handling it: representation for representation's sake. I will show you why via contrast in a thought experiment. Now, suppose you're HBO and you change Bill into a heterosexual male and introduce him to a heterosexual female named Francine and they become romantically intertwined. Well, congratulations, and watch as what was once a critically acclaimed example of storytelling now become universally panned as just another filler episode right before your very eyes. It always was but the rainbow-colored glasses have been removed and, suddenly, there is nothing special about the episode and there never was. Had this been the reality we live in, you would most likely have seen an online kerfuffle about "straightwashing" where, at that moment, those proponents of the notion that "love is love" would toss that very idea right out the window themselves; hypocrites exposed by the very same ridiculous concept of interchangeability that their ideologies promote—hoisted by their own petard. So, once again, the main issue persists: the homosexuality aspect is ultimately unnecessary to begin with. What other purpose besides "because gay" does the inclusion of LGBT representation serve in a work of fiction that isn't about homosexuality? Self-insertion? Tokenism? Propaganda?
And just to be clear, that episode was completely unnecessary as a whole, regardless of sexual orientation, and an unneeded divergence from the source material.
But a fair example of a way to do it (mostly) right and a way to do it wrong is the depictions of Bill and Frank from the Last of Us video game compared to the HBO adaptation.
The video game leads you to believe that Bill, a tightly wound survivalist, merely had a falling out with his former cohort, Frank. It's ambiguous until the climax of the chapter, and then it is unnecessarily spelled out directly afterward with a gag by Ellie. There was an inexplicable insistence by the writers to completely undo the ambiguity that led up to them using Ellie as a billboard to proudly proclaim "...and he was GAY! THE WHOLE! TIME!" But, overall, I feel like the Bill's Town chapter is an okay example of how this could be handled. Not great, but okay. However, the main issue persists: the homosexuality aspect is ultimately unnecessary to begin with. Would it change anything if Bill and Frank were instead a heterosexual male and female?
Which brings us to the wrong way of handling it: representation for representation's sake. I will show you why via contrast in a thought experiment. Now, suppose you're HBO and you change Bill into a heterosexual male and introduce him to a heterosexual female named Francine and they become romantically intertwined. Well, congratulations, and watch as what was once a critically acclaimed example of storytelling now become universally panned as just another filler episode right before your very eyes. It always was but the rainbow-colored glasses have been removed and, suddenly, there is nothing special about the episode and there never was. Had this been the reality we live in, you would most likely have seen an online kerfuffle about "straightwashing" where, at that moment, those proponents of the notion that "love is love" would toss that very idea right out the window themselves; hypocrites exposed by the very same ridiculous concept of interchangeability that their ideologies promote—hoisted by their own petard. So, once again, the main issue persists: the homosexuality aspect is ultimately unnecessary to begin with. What other purpose besides "because gay" does the inclusion of LGBT representation serve in a work of fiction that isn't about homosexuality? Self-insertion? Tokenism? Propaganda?
And just to be clear, that episode was completely unnecessary as a whole, regardless of sexual orientation, and an unneeded divergence from the source material.
cormack12
Gold Member
There are a number of posters who haven't posted for a while or are neos with like 25-150 posts who rarely talk about any games, yet immediately jump into these threads proclaiming 'it's all you ever talk about! Leave woke alone' etc.
Ignore topic, post in gaming threads. Job done.
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cormack12
Gold Member
I remember there was interviews about the X-Files in it's heyday and the writers were clear that even though the fantasy wanted Mulder and Scully to get together it would have ruined the show. And I think it was handled great (until the kid arc). But during its run there was sometimes a bit of ambiguity or breadcrumbs for those fans to look for and cling to but never anything overt.
Nowadays that would be two gay guys wandering down, gargling balls and kissing at every jump scare and that's the climate we're in so everyone is just tired and skeptical of the whole thing, like the gay witch trope in Agatha, Wicked etc.
Woopah
Member
The part I don't understand about this argument, is why does something have to be "necessary" to be included.
Most pieces of media include sexuality in some way. It's rare to have something where all characters are asexual or where no one's sexuality is revealed.
So I don't agree that a piece of media has to be about sexuality to include sexuality. Sexuality is a part of people.
realcool
Member
The necessity I'm talking about refers to the necessity for the narrative itself. I don't believe including, emphasizing, or highlighting homosexual identities serves a meaningful function in a story. It's easily discardable without the story noticing its absence unless it revolves around homosexual subject matter.
Also, a writer doesn't have to justify the relevance of every element in their work to the audience. Still, as a critical audience member, I will question any element's purpose or overall contribution to the work. So, while you ask, "Why does something have to be 'necessary' to be included?" I will answer by saying that sometimes it just does. For example, if Bill was a furry and wore a bear fursuit, would you at least secretly wonder if that was necessary? I would.
Even if that were true, I don't object to the general inclusion of sexuality in media.
That may be, but the necessity and presentation of homosexuality are my points of contention.
I also don't believe a piece of media needs to be about sexuality to include it. Still, I think including or highlighting an element such as homosexuality should ideally serve a purpose within the narrative. As I illustrated with 'Bill and Francine,' removing the homosexual element reveals the lack of narrative substance.
So is eye color. So is blood type. None of these things are automatically narratively necessary or valuable because they are a part of people.
Tams
Member
Firstly, if it is the reason behind a game, rather than the story, then I have no interest. It leads to souless games.
As for Nier. It is very clearly fictional and set in a scientifically far more advanced time. If the player has any common sense, then they'd understand that what is possible in that fictional world is not all possible in our real world.
tl;dr: It doesn't encourage young people to ruin their bodies because they feel like the other sex.
As for Nier. It is very clearly fictional and set in a scientifically far more advanced time. If the player has any common sense, then they'd understand that what is possible in that fictional world is not all possible in our real world.
tl;dr: It doesn't encourage young people to ruin their bodies because they feel like the other sex.
Laptop1991
Member
Even if there is a right way to do it, too many gamer's are sick of it now and have been for quite a while, so i would say not at the moment.
MiguelItUp
Member
Of course, and there already has been. It just needs to be handled with respect and passion. Don't force anything, and just create amazing characters, lore, and gameplay. LGBT people exist in the real world, much like everything else. So, I can understand wanting to include them, much like all other forms of people are included. It just has to be done right.
It's hard to ignore that anything forced sticks out like a sore thumb, and it never does good for anyone. Including the game itself.
It's hard to ignore that anything forced sticks out like a sore thumb, and it never does good for anyone. Including the game itself.
Nostalgic Nightmare
Member
20? More like 2%
The modern audience doesn’t exist when it’s time to buy their pandered products.
Woopah
Member
Thank you for the details in your answer.
My main question would then be, would you also apply these rules to heterosexuality and straight people? AKA
1. Do you think heterosexuality should ideally serve a narrative purpose, in order to be included in media?
2. If a straight person/relationship could be changed to a gay person/relationship, does that reveal a lack narrative substance?
I see subcultures as being part of a character. Bill could be a goth, a hippie, an okatu, a furry, a petrolhead, an emo, a cosplsyer etc. etc. and I don't think that's something that has to be justified.
It wasn't necessary for Bill to be a comic book nerd, but that doesn't make it a bad thing thing that he was.
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realcool
Member
Thinking back on when I used to watch network television, I wonder which storylines manifested purely from narrative integrity and which ones from the need for steady employment. I can't imagine how many showrunners received a note from a network executive saying, "Make them kiss."
I liked entertainment better when authorial intent wasn't being used as a cudgel to bash me over the head.
Crystal Winters
Member
I skipped this game. Is a person mentioning their same sex married partner at home really so terrible as one example? I don't know what the scene was like in the game. Cortez did it in ME3 and I don't remember if people had an issue with that or not. In fact, I hated seeing him get taken out during the suicide run at the end.
Imo cyberpunk did it “right”. But I think the well has been well and truly poisoned by mandated forced inclusion in far too many games, and thus as a result done by studios who on aggregate are not sufficiently talented storytellers, so with that mandate in mind, make it preachy and hamfisted, and “make a point of it”, instead of just treating the characters no different to any other.
There’s some quote by the actor who played sisko in ds9, something to the effect of “I did not play my role as a black man, but simply as a man”. Ie his race was not, and should not have been a factor.
Because LGB (and other aspects of DEI) have been so broadly applied and so badly handled, it’s made everything much worse imo. In the past if you had a black lead, or a female lead etc, people thought little of it. Now it has almost become a giant neon sign saying “I will be hamfisted preachy crap shoved down your throat”. It very well might not be, but that, like it or not has become for many gamers the impression, consciously or subconsciously. So many will simply not give it a try and find out (it also doesn’t help that marketing companies have a penchant to front load their ads with those demonstrations of diversity). it’ll take quite a long time to heal those perceptions.
So yes, I do think it can be done well. Most are not capable, and to attempt to do so now, will immediately get the game slapped with a non-buy-nary label with the corresponding waves of negative publicity that come with it, and it’ll likely tank. So it’s a now a very difficult road ahead in that regards.
There’s some quote by the actor who played sisko in ds9, something to the effect of “I did not play my role as a black man, but simply as a man”. Ie his race was not, and should not have been a factor.
Because LGB (and other aspects of DEI) have been so broadly applied and so badly handled, it’s made everything much worse imo. In the past if you had a black lead, or a female lead etc, people thought little of it. Now it has almost become a giant neon sign saying “I will be hamfisted preachy crap shoved down your throat”. It very well might not be, but that, like it or not has become for many gamers the impression, consciously or subconsciously. So many will simply not give it a try and find out (it also doesn’t help that marketing companies have a penchant to front load their ads with those demonstrations of diversity). it’ll take quite a long time to heal those perceptions.
So yes, I do think it can be done well. Most are not capable, and to attempt to do so now, will immediately get the game slapped with a non-buy-nary label with the corresponding waves of negative publicity that come with it, and it’ll likely tank. So it’s a now a very difficult road ahead in that regards.
simpatico
Member
lol. lmao even. America owes nothing to anyone who didn't help found it. This place was a bloody battlefield when we got here. But we can still learn a lot from the native's mistakes when it comes to views on migration ethics.
Kerotan
Member
It's not really an issue but I rolled my eyes. I'd recommend AW2. Great game.
realcool
Member
Ideally, every element should contribute meaningfully, but the reality is that heterosexuality doesn't require justification because it's the default. Deviation requires a narrative purpose. They're not interchangeable.
If the heterosexual relationship was received as mediocre beforehand and then lauded after the swap then yes.
I wouldn't require a justification for Bill possessing comic books. Justification would be a necessity for me if Bill were walking around in a full bear fursuit.
Idleyes
Member
You're right, America doesn't owe you shit.
Woopah
Member
But then you'd have a double standard, with one rule for majorities and one rule for minorities.
Being right handed is the default and being left handed is a deviation. Does a character being left handed require narrative purpose?
If your story is set in the US, then being white is the default and being mixed race is a deviation. Does a character being mixed race require narrative purpose?
I would say no to all of these examples. Minority traits don't require justification to be in a video game.
How does that apply to your Bill example though? Changing "Frank" to "Francine" isn't taking a mediocre relationship and making it lauded.
The justification would be "because he's a furry". Just like if a character was an emo or a okatu or a nerd or a petrolhead. People being in a sub-culture is something that happens.
Gameplay Gods Bless
Member
Ignore the purple mob. Just make what you want to make like Yoko Taro.
Gameplay Gods Bless
Member
I thought we got rid of affirmative action a couple years ago.
Rawbutt Jellybean
Member
There's just zero subtlety in their attempts so it'll almost always feel awkward and forced.
Crystal Winters
Member
I liked the way it was handled in Fire Emblem Three Houses. Kinda missed it in Engage because there was no romance at all.
Hudo
Member
Much like in real life, if a character's only defining trait is to be LGBTQ, then it's someone I don't want to be around. I have a friend who is gay but being gay is not his defining or even only personality trait. Dude is a normal human being with hobbies, likes and dislikes. And many representations of LGBTQ people in media are so one-note and one-dimensional that it actually dehumanizes them. And it doesn't help that all these mentally ill people on Twitter who are LGBTQ are exaclty just as one-note as the depictions in media because those people are just using LGBTQ as a coping mechanism for their mental illness/psychological problems.
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realcool
Member
It's not morally wrong for an author to deviate from the norm, but it is an active decision to deviate nonetheless. In the context of heterosexuality, what is the purpose to deviate other than "because gay?"
Do left-handers demand representation? Do authors actively decide to centralize focus on left-handedness? Heterosexuality is generally an unstated aspect of a character much like their handedness.
Yes. If your story is set in feudal Japan, being Japanese is the default, and being African is a deviation. Does a character being an African require a narrative purpose? Yes. Now make those characters homosexual. If the story is not about homosexuality or sexuality at all, what narrative purpose does it serve to include or highlight their homosexuality?
If homosexuality requires focus it must possess a narrative function. What would the justification be other than "because gay?"
The novelty of it being a homosexual relationship is what garnered that episode its praise. You couldn't apply the same novelty effect to the episode if it were a heterosexual couple. It would be seen for what it is: run-of-the-mill filler. The lack of narrative substance is self-evident.
A man who is deeply into cars or comic books is far different from a man with a fursona. Seeing Bill walking around in a full bear fursuit would feel forced. Seeing Bill's collection of Savage Starlight wouldn't.
simpatico
Member
I thought that until I became a parent and realized how much any decent parent wants their kids to be proud of and take ownership of the sacrifices they make for them. Why would the Founders be any different?
Are you a father?
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Sushi_Combo
Member
I'm fairly certain they make up substantially more, there's just a ton of closet cases.
PurePlatinum
Member
I have no problem with there being LGBT characters in games, but it has to make sense and feel genuine. Most of the time it feels like a checkbox that someone in a boardroom came up with as a way to sell more copies, or to substitute for the character having a real personality.
For example - Aloy being
doesn't work for me because Aloy isn't interested in any human, period. She's a straight up bitch almost all the time and has nothing but contempt for the people around her. You're now trying to humanize her by making her into a minority? Get the fuck out of here.
Sylvando from DQXI is a great example of how to do it right. He's almost like an offensive stereotype of a gay man but I love him anyway, and it feels completely genuine and accurate to his character and story. Didn't feel forced at all.
In my opinion it's actually much more offensive to make an existing character LGBT in order to make them interesting.
For example - Aloy being
interested in women
Sylvando from DQXI is a great example of how to do it right. He's almost like an offensive stereotype of a gay man but I love him anyway, and it feels completely genuine and accurate to his character and story. Didn't feel forced at all.
In my opinion it's actually much more offensive to make an existing character LGBT in order to make them interesting.