Support NeoGAF

[Hypereides]

Gestalt/Replicant is a 2010 game, so representation is organic, subtle and only used because its relevant as a character trait within the story.

As Yoko said, "there are people like this in the world, small in number, but this is normal".

Ironically you can look at Nier as being a particularly sharp critique of the excesses of wokism. The whole point being that its easy to do really bad things even when your intentions are pure.

It was remarkably prescient back in the day, and I was (sadly) entirely unsurprised when this message was largely ignored by critics reviewing the remake.

Not to mention, the original game got thoroughly raked.

Its only due to the persistence of the gaming community it managed to gain traction.

 

[sono]

I don't need to be preached at in games or other media because it just comes off as fighting some battle that does not need to be fought

That is well put and how I feel about many types of media on this topic

 

[seb85]

Should be natural and not forced or highlighted

 

[Exede]

It would be perfect when it's integrated into a game and nobody gives a shit about it.
Not positive not negative.
Means it just fits naturally into the games story.

 

[Clear]

Not to mention, the original game got thoroughly raked.

Its only due to the persistence of the gaming community it managed to gain traction.

Honest truth is that I bought it on a whim, mostly based on the art direction in the trailer catching my eye, and to a lesser degree because of Yoko Taro's rep from Drakengard, and it genuinely blew me away.

Even aware of its faults and shortcomings, its still probably the most emotionally impactful gaming experience I've ever had. And that, in my personal view, is the highest compliment that I can give. It literally was the experience I'd always dreamt of communicating in my own work. That emotional rollercoaster was just too good.

Truth be told it pretty much killed my desire to stay in the industry beyond the paycheck. For me, Nier was IT.

So between that experience, and seeing the shitty reviews that couldn't see past the graphics (the uber clown who gave up over the fishing mini-game... omfg) it was at that point that any remaining faith I had in the enthusiast press was over and done with!

 

[sainraja]

They shouldn't mention it at all unless it is a story beat like Nathan and Elena's relationship ended up being so if it has nothing to do with a story element don't mention it at all. Keep it vague and unknown so people can just "insert" their gender to the main character if they really feel and care about representation in entertainment media.

 

[Crayon]

What do you mean? I thought he loved Meryl?

So did he but in the end he was living with otacon and their adopted kid.

 

[Gamer_By_Proxy]

Gestalt/Replicant is a 2010 game, so representation is organic, subtle and only used because its relevant as a character trait within the story.

As Yoko said, "there are people like this in the world, small in number, but this is normal".

Ironically you can look at Nier as being a particularly sharp critique of the excesses of wokism. The whole point being that its easy to do really bad things even when your intentions are pure.

It was remarkably prescient back in the day, and I was (sadly) entirely unsurprised when this message was largely ignored by critics reviewing the remake.

I was just joking. I’m actually waiting til I beat Automata first.

 

[sainraja]

They shouldn't mention it at all unless it is a story beat like Nathan and Elena's relationship ended up being so if it has nothing to do with a story element don't mention it at all. Keep it vague and unknown so people can just "insert" their gender to the main character if they really feel and care about representation in entertainment media.

Also, if it really is that necessary, why not show a prompt at the start of a game asking the player if they are straight or gay or whatever and adjust the game based on that selection (completely optional of-course).

 

[Cyberpunkd]

Recently replaying Nier Replicant which features an intersex woman, and a homosexual young man. I don't remember hearing any complaints about either of them, and they are great characters.

I didn't play it but I'm going to make a blind bet - it's because their sexuality doesn't define who they are, it is only one element of it. It is mentioned in passing and they barely react to it.
Here's how it would be if the same way Western devs write trans and homosexuals would be applied to CIS males:

Narrator: *you see a woman, you notice her perfect figure and those delicious breasts you just want to bury your face in*
PC: Hey there girl, you got incredible tits, mind if I take a bite?

Do you see this in games? No? Wonder why.

 

[Edellus]

So did he but in the end he was living with otacon and their adopted kid.

That's just max level bromance. Plato's dream come true. Kojima himself said they gay character is you (the player).

 

[april6e]

It was done correctly in games like Hogwarts Legacy, Celeste and Life is Strange S1 and people still whined about it. There is nothing you can do to appease "woke" critics other than to ignore their existence and let them spend $70 to pretend like mediocre games like Stellar Blade were GOTY.

 

[WhamBamThankYouMaam]

I know trans people. I know gay people.

Not a single fucking time have I ever gone ”hey, I wonder if master chief is gay or trans.”

It is not as if I saw my character in battlefield 1942 jerk off to pictures of his wife to underline how straight he was.

I just don’t give a shit.

 

[CompleteGlobalSaturation]

So did he but in the end he was living with otacon and their adopted kid.

They're simply friends.

 

[tmlDan]

Why do they need to be in games at all? If we're trying to make things more relatable, and im not saying gay relationships aren't because romance is universal, then why even include them in games at all? for social points? empathy? If i were a dev, and i knew my game was a business first and my employees relied on sales for survival, i'd focus on heterosexuality since it is the majority and the most relatable to the most amount of people.

Personally, i don't care, but if we're talking about games, doing "gay stories" right, reducing layoffs, being successful - i'd lean in a direction that is the least controversial or risky.

 

[delirium trigger]

They're simply friends.

This is what you get it you can't hit the button fast enough.

 

[DelireMan7]

I felt like it was nicely done in Last of Us 2 (just replayed it) with Ellie and Dina. It didn't felt forced for me. Actually already in the first game (and the DLC) it was already there but never too much on your face or annoying.
Lev's story on the otherside felt a bit weird but they didn't made all a fuzz about it so it's fine for me.

 

[midasmulligan]

I felt like it was nicely done in Last of Us 2 (just replayed it) with Ellie and Dina. It didn't felt forced for me. Actually already in the first game (and the DLC) it was already there but never too much on your face or annoying.
Lev's story on the otherside felt a bit weird but they didn't made all a fuzz about it so it's fine for me.

lol, what? Correct me if wrong, but isn't that chick pregnant while also confessing her love to Ellie in like the first 2 hours? super natural and highly common situation...totally not in your face.

 

[DelireMan7]

lol, what? Correct me if wrong, but isn't that chick pregnant while also confessing her love to Ellie in like the first 2 hours? super natural and highly common situation...totally not in your face.

I was more thinking about Ellie being gay. It was never on the nose.
And actually Dina is presented (or I perceived it like that) like an "easy" girl. Every guy wants to be with her and she flirts a lot. So it didn't shock me. She was with a guy before and in a post apocalyptic world, contraception might not be something that you can get easily.

For me it felt natural. Dina is an easy girl who slept with a lot of people and now she wants some fun with Ellie. Then it turned into love with the tragic event of the game.

 

[James0007]

What creators can do is this. Tell your story. Tell it the way you want, with the characters you want.

We don’t criticise great works of literature for not containing one of everything. We don’t critique great works of arts for not representing one of each race creed colour or sexuality.

Pour yourself a fine scotch single malt.
Take a sip, mmm tasty. Now mix in a bit of the other 5 regions. What have you got? Piss - also known as Bells.

 

[Crayon]

They're simply friends.

Gotcha!

 

[Gojiira]

Recently replaying Nier Replicant which features an intersex woman, and a homosexual young man. I don't remember hearing any complaints about either of them, and they are great characters.
I have yet to play a game made by a western dev (unless I am forgetting) that did not feel like they were written badly to feel like preaching some sort of message. I admit to being disappointed in this as a Bi woman.

I don't need to be preached at in games or other media because it just comes off as fighting some battle that does not need to be fought and thus alienating to both groups.

What can western game devs and others from other territories do to get it right without being like the purple mob among other places and groups that are infecting the entertainment industry? To make it feel natural and not annoying?

Of course theres a right way to do it, just don’t make the entire fucking game and every conversation with said character be about ‘their struggle’ or ‘pronouns’ or whatever. Just have them be a character who mentions they’re trans once and thats it. Its simply the most irrelevant aspect of characterisation, the focus should be on making them likeable and interesting.
Kaine in Nier is a great example of doing it right btw, since its only ever inferred thats she not entirely female.

 

[nkarafo]

Imagine wanting to create a story of your own and a bunch of characters but also having to make sure some group of people (no matter what that is) needs to be represented as a mandatory thing.

Fuck that. Let people create the stories and characters they want. If their original vision includes a certain group of characters, that's fine. But that's not "representation" that's just the... original story that happens to have those characters. Meaning the person making the story wasn't thinking "i need to add this type of character here" they were just creating the story they wanted and it just happened to have this character, organically.

Which means that "representation" is forced, by it's nature. And that cannot be done right.

 

[N1tr0sOx1d3]

 

[Js562]

 

[DevilHunterX0]

Also, if it really is that necessary, why not show a prompt at the start of a game asking the player if they are straight or gay or whatever and adjust the game based on that selection (completely optional of-course).

Are you:
1) Left wing (super homo-erotic mode on)
2) Right wing (super homo-erotic mode on but with a hat)

 

[DeepEnigma]

Every male character in Final Fantasy games does it right.

 

[FoxMcChief]

As I’m sure others have probably already said, Hogwarts did it just fine.

 

[Crystal Winters]

As I’m sure others have probably already said, Hogwarts did it just fine.

Yeah professor Garlick. She is cool. Been a long time though, so I do not remember if it comes up or not. I don't need her to be all out on front street with it, but it would be nice to hear it in game if she mentions it or not.

 

[360fps]

The reality is, in many communities and by many individuals LGBTQ is as immoral as pedos so there is no right way to represent them. Games are way to escape from the real world problems so I wouldn't push any of it to gamers If I was a game dev tbh.

 

[Tommi84]

My neighbour's dog asked me to ask you the source of the second picture. If you couls help grant his wish, that'd be great

 

[FF:Enhanced_Reality]

I'm having de ja vu. These exact same topics started popping up before a big bang and mass migration to Reeeee Era.

Honestly, the game worlds don't always need this shit. Who's going to give a shit whether Ratchet and Lombax is gay, or if Sackboy is non binary or Aloy is a raging gender fluid lesbian looking to ravish the nearest woman who isn't white.

Don't care. If you're in the video game business your first and foremost priority, should be, to make fun games. Because you can put billions into a game that tells the most beautiful story about a gay relationship between two people of different colours and if a game that's far more fun to play like Astro Bot comes out and I have to choose between the two? I go Astro Bot.

If you're looking to games for validation about your gender or identity or whatever, you're looking in the wrong place. If you're looking for representation, you're looking in the wrong place.

Game worlds should be a proper representation of the world as it is. Transgender people are a tiny population, certainly of the global population, so if you overfill your game on DEI check lists, then you aren't really setting out to make a game are you?

Personally it can be done very tastefully. Dion in FFXVI was genuinely a suprise that he was gay, but it changed nothing about the character and his story was very good indeed. Bill and Frank in the Last of Us TV episode was a beautiful depiction of a gay relationship.

And I'd happily play more games with black, female, gay/whatever protagonist inside, providing you make a great game. No issues at all. Should more games like that be made? Probably. A lot of games I love either have female or black protagonists. I don't doubt people can make incredible games like that.

You put love and attention into your character and game world and it'll feel sincere and natural.

 

[Crystal Winters]

My neighbour's dog asked me to ask you the source of the second picture. If you couls help grant his wish, that'd be great

The one with the two anime girls? That is Blue Reflection. There are two games in the series. A yuri jrpg series with turn based combat.

 

[Crystal Winters]

I'm having de ja vu. These exact same topics started popping up before a big bang and mass migration to Reeeee Era.

Honestly, the game worlds don't always need this shit. Who's going to give a shit whether Ratchet and Lombax is gay, or if Sackboy is non binary or Aloy is a raging gender fluid lesbian looking to ravish the nearest woman who isn't white.

Don't care. If you're in the video game business your first and foremost priority, should be, to make fun games. Because you can put billions into a game that tells the most beautiful story about a gay relationship between two people of different colours and if a game that's far more fun to play like Astro Bot comes out and I have to choose between the two? I go Astro Bot.

If you're looking to games for validation about your gender or identity or whatever, you're looking in the wrong place. If you're looking for representation, you're looking in the wrong place.

Game worlds should be a proper representation of the world as it is. Transgender people are a tiny population, certainly of the global population, so if you overfill your game on DEI check lists, then you aren't really setting out to make a game are you?

Personally it can be done very tastefully. Dion in FFXVI was genuinely a suprise that he was gay, but it changed nothing about the character and his story was very good indeed. Bill and Frank in the Last of Us TV episode was a beautiful depiction of a gay relationship.

And I'd happily play more games with black, female, gay/whatever protagonist inside, providing you make a great game. No issues at all. Should more games like that be made? Probably. A lot of games I love either have female or black protagonists. I don't doubt people can make incredible games like that.

You put love and attention into your character and game world and it'll feel sincere and natural.

I would not worry about the bolded part. Not for me anyway. They would really hate me over there for not thinking like the rest of them despite being a woman who is into women. They can't stand the idea of a fit feminine woman who is into other women, that likes hot women in life and in video games.

 

[fart town usa]

Just needs to have good writing. In threads like these I always point out that Omar from The Wire is a gay black man. No one cared because his character was awesome and when his BF is killed, we all wanted revenge.

Cringe know-it-alls who talk down to everyone and are flawless are terrible characters. They're terrible in real life too. 99.9% of gamers don't care and just want good stories.

Major development studios are generally located in the thick of democrat supermajorities and they live in a bubble. They are genuinely some of the most ignorant and uninformed people on the planet. It's not gonna change anytime soon, they are too proud to change course.

 

[M1chl]

Probably Cyberpunk 2077

 

[Last Hearth]

The goal is not “representation”, it’s a good story with good plot, meaningful themes, and interesting characters.

Any character that serves those purposes should be in the story, and any that don’t shouldn’t be in.

Once you start with “representation”, you’ve already lost. Because you made something else a higher priority than the quality of your story.

 

[Boss Mog]

Cyberpunk had a trans woman, the one you do the races with. They just mention it once in passing and never speak of it again. People can easily miss it if they're not paying attention. No babbling on about it or preaching anything so I thought it was okay.

 

[Gamer79]

I am just curious what the DEI crowd thinks if it worked the other way.

How about a white Martin Luther King?
How about a white guy growing up in the ghetto and pimping ho's while slanging dope?
How about a White NBA Player who dunks on everyone and scoring 40 points a game?

My point is DEI is just a form of racism and elitist who want to pat themselves on the back with the belief they are being good or virtuous!

 

[CompleteGlobalSaturation]

I am just curious what the DEI crowd thinks if it worked the other way.

How about a white Martin Luther King?
How about a white guy growing up in the ghetto and pimping ho's while slanging dope?
How about a White NBA Player who dunks on everyone and scoring 40 points a game?

My point is DEI is just a form of racism and elitist who want to pat themselves on the back with the belief they are being good or virtuous!

Race swapping is only acceptable if you remove white people. /s

 

[Ryūtō]

Dion (not sure if it written well) in Final Fantasy 16 was very well made imho.

This one I agree with 100%. Overall he was a well-written character who just happened to be gay--there wasn't even any indication he was until a certain scene that happens. And his orientation isn't really given any heavy relevance for the rest of the game.

 

[LimanimaPT]

Entertainment and art don't need "representation" of any type. Devs should include what makes sense. If some gay character makes sense, include it, just don't include it just to have representation.
Or else, I want to be represented too. There aren't enough characters with glasses in video games...

 

[Rudius]

I like LGTV representation the same way I like my Sega consoles released after Dreamcast.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

If you're forcing "representation" to meet some meaningless political or social agenda you are already doing it wrong. Since this is 100% of the Western devs, there's no way for the West to do it right

 

[dottme]

It was done correctly in games like Hogwarts Legacy, Celeste and Life is Strange S1 and people still whined about it. There is nothing you can do to appease "woke" critics other than to ignore their existence and let them spend $70 to pretend like mediocre games like Stellar Blade were GOTY.

Hogwart Legacy has a great integration of LGBT community

Yeah professor Garlick. She is cool. Been a long time though, so I do not remember if it comes up or not. I don't need her to be all out on front street with it, but it would be nice to hear it in game if she mentions it or not.

But that's why it's well done. She looks normal, she behaves like everyone else. She is well integrated with the community and part of the world.
Also, Sirona was more visible. But the character looks perfectly fine in the world of the game.

I think we need more trans character that are part of the world and not trans character like in Dragon Age the Veilguard that are clearly centering their identity on being trans.

 

[Woopah]

For all the controversy around it I felt Hogwarts Legacy handled it in a really good way.

Basically just include a variety of characters, and be as willing to include LGBT+ people as you are straight people.

That's all really.

 

[xenosys]

Just write a good character. If you to want make them a lesbian for example, fine, just don't make it their entire personality and don't crowbar narratives surrounding their sexuality into stories that don't warrant it.

 

[laynelane]

Just needs to have good writing. In threads like these I always point out that Omar from The Wire is a gay black man. No one cared because his character was awesome and when his BF is killed, we all wanted revenge.

Cringe know-it-alls who talk down to everyone and are flawless are terrible characters. They're terrible in real life too. 99.9% of gamers don't care and just want good stories.

Major development studios are generally located in the thick of democrat supermajorities and they live in a bubble. They are genuinely some of the most ignorant and uninformed people on the planet. It's not gonna change anytime soon, they are too proud to change course.

I couldn't agree more about them being too proud to change. You can see it in all the ignoring of feedback prior to a game's release - all the recent failures had plenty of that. The blaming of customers and liberal use of words like "bigots" and "toxic gamers" to deflect attention away from their failures by devs and publishers - it's just all gone so far. And now we have games being shut down and studios disbanded (Concord), lack of further investment in struggling titles (no DLC for Veilguard), and delaying games in the hopes that controversy will die down a bit (AC Shadows). Everything but correcting the real problems and due to this - I think we're going to see a lot more lay-offs, studio shut downs, and games "under performing".

All that's left is to see just how bad it's going to get. Normally I'd have some sympathy, but not so much in this case. Focusing on the customer, not your narcissistic world view, is something that really needs to be relearned by many devs and publishers

 

[Tommi84]

The one with the two anime girls? That is Blue Reflection. There are two games in the series. A yuri jrpg series with turn based combat.

The dog would like to thank you

 

[JohnnyFootball]

The short answer to this question is at the moment...NO.

DEI/wokeism is one of the most toxic/society-destroying movements ever created.

It may have started out with good intentions of ending racism/sexism/homophobia, but it got twisted and highjacked by bad faith people.

Once those people took over it was NEVER about ending the things they claimed to hate.

DEI keeps all of those things alive and that is exactly what they want.

The DEI crowdy likely still has some good intentioned people and unfortunately they've been ruined by this hateful movement.