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[numble]

The hell?? Isn't it obvious, HK is a small territory bordering a developing country of more then 1 billion people, you do the math.

Also, in theory HK still controls its own immigration and China is not allowed to interfere, the only exception the One-Way permit loophole.

I'm not sure what math you are referring to. Show me what math you are referring to.

If your argument is that the PRC government wants to increase the Mainlander presence in Hong Kong, why wouldn't they just get rid of the quota in the One-Way permit or relax the standards (which requires people to wait up to 4 years)?

If the general increase in population is a major issue for Hong Kong in general, why doesn't Hong Kong, which has very loose immigration policies for non-Mainlanders (such that Mainlanders purchase foreign passports to make it easier to immigrate to Hong Kong) just make their immigration policies stricter for foreigners (like they already do for housekeepers from SE Asia)?

If Hong Kong banned all Mainlanders, it would not solve any of these issues, as long as it has a policy of being a tax haven that is welcoming of foreigners and foreign investment. The people are complicit by being in favor of the tax haven status--why would they be interested in paying 30-45% income tax and 7-20% sales tax like the rest of the developed world to support social programs when we can just blame Mainlanders for our problems?

 

[djplaeskool]

Do you have money? If yes, easy. If not, very hard.

True everywhere.
Mobility, or a lack thereof, is a key factor in generational poverty.

 

[navii]

i wonder when everybody will move out and let the tycoons have their worthless ghost city

 

[TheWraith]

I'm not sure what math you are referring to. Show me what math you are referring to.

1.3 or so billion people let loose on a territory barely suitable for 7 million people. Hello?

If your argument is that the PRC government wants to increase the Mainlander presence in Hong Kong, why wouldn't they just get rid of the quota in the One-Way permit or relax the standards (which requires people to wait up to 4 years)?

Because the PRC does not have that power, HK controls it according to HK law. Also if the PRC would just send anyone to HK, this would be dangerous in their eyes: people not friendly to the regime could join forces with the many pro-democracy groups in HK.

If the general increase in population is a major issue for Hong Kong in general, why doesn't Hong Kong, which has very loose immigration policies for non-Mainlanders (such that Mainlanders purchase foreign passports to make it easier to immigrate to Hong Kong) just make their immigration policies stricter for foreigners (like they already do for housekeepers from SE Asia)?

They are already very strict, housekeepers are vetted and their stay conditions are also very limited. Foreigners that come to work to HK need to prove they are very skilled and prove they work in a position that cannot be filled by locals, and needs to earn quite a higher then average salary.

If Hong Kong banned all Mainlanders, it would not solve any of these issues, as long as it has a policy of being a tax haven that is welcoming of foreigners and foreign investment.

It would solve it, although not feasible. Banning the One Way permit would free up close to a million Mainlanders in 20 years time. Which would ease up the available residential land, just imagine if the One Way permit never happened: HK would have close to a million less people, with the HK authorities being able to be more selective on what kind of people move to HK.

 

[numble]

1.3 or so billion people let loose on a territory barely suitable for 7 million people. Hello?

Most of the 5 billion or so foreigners in the world can travel and move to Hong Kong more easier than Mainlanders. Hello?

Because the PRC does not have that power, HK controls it according to HK law. Also if the PRC would just send anyone to HK, this would be dangerous in their eyes: people not friendly to the regime could join forces with the many pro-democracy groups in HK.

I am talking about through the One-Way Permit. If you are comparing it to Tibetization, where they allow anyone to move to Tibet, it is not comparable to Tibetization.

They are already very strict, housekeepers are vetted and their stay conditions are also very limited. Foreigners that come to work to HK need to prove they are very skilled and prove they work in a position that cannot be filled by locals, and needs to earn quite a higher then average salary.

They really do not need to prove much, a foreigner can come on an "training" visa (not available to Mainlanders) and have no salary, for instance. For the general employment visa (not available to Mainlanders), they do not need to earn a salary higher than average, in fact the rule says that they just need to earn an average salary. If you are rich, you can just enter on an entrepreneur visa (not available to Mainlanders). Having gone through the process on three different times, it is not strict at all.

It would solve it, although not feasible. Banning the One Way permit would free up close to a million Mainlanders in 20 years time. Which would ease up the available residential land, just imagine if the One Way permit never happened: HK would have close to a million less people, and people would not be kidnapped on HK streets by Chinese secret agents that easily as happened in the past few years.

It would not solve it. People would still move to HK, and it is hardly likely that Hong Kong would not have their own program to allow family members of HKers to move to Hong Kong. People would still be kidnapped on HK streets because they are not being kidnapped by One Way permit holders.

 

[Sunster]

i wonder when everybody will move out and let the tycoons have their worthless ghost city

Tycoons will almost always be fine.

 

[TheWraith]

Most of the 5 billion or so foreigners in the world can travel and move to Hong Kong more easier than Mainlanders. Hello?

Please look it up, I moved to HK and it was quite a difficult process as an European. Also the only neighboring country to HK is China, not the rest of the world. Any Mainlander could cross the border on foot, someone from say the US, would need to buy an air ticket at least: there's already an economic barrier there.

I am talking about through the One-Way Permit. If you are comparing it to Tibetization, where they allow anyone to move to Tibet, it is not comparable to Tibetization.

Well yes it is, and all people in the know agree to that. How exactly would you call a scheme to prop HK up of full of regime-darlings?

They really do not need to prove much, a foreigner can come on an "training" visa (not available to Mainlanders) and have no salary, for instance. For the general employment visa (not available to Mainlanders), they do not need to earn a salary higher than average, in fact the rule says that they just need to earn an average salary. If you are rich, you can just enter on an entrepreneur visa (not available to Mainlanders). Having gone through the process on three different times, it is not strict at all.

A training visa is not available to all countries, and only available for a limited time. Also my company cannot hire foreign staff if salary is below 33K per month(about 4,200USD), a far cry from the average salary of around 10K. We have been cited this figure exactly from our immigration lawyer. Says enough.

It really seems you lack an understanding of HK and its laws. I'm probably also right you once wanted some girlfriend from China to come to HK? I think you're too emotional about it to see it more objectively in that case.

 

[ponpo]

i wonder when everybody will move out

"hopefully asap" - tycoons

 

[numble]

Please look it up, I moved to HK and it was quite a difficult process as an European. Also the only neighboring country to HK is China, not the rest of the world. Any Mainlander could cross the border on foot, someone from say the US, would need to buy an air ticket at least: there's already an economic barrier there.

Well yes it is, and all people in the know agree to that. How exactly would you call a scheme to prop HK up of full of regime-darlings?

A training visa is not available to all countries, and only available for a limited time. Also my company cannot hire foreign staff if salary is below 33K per month(about 4,200USD), a far cry from the average salary of around 10K. We have been cited this figure exactly from our immigration lawyer. Says enough.

It really seems you lack an understanding of HK and its laws. I'm probably also right you once wanted some girlfriend from China to come to HK? I think you're too emotional about it to see it more objectively in that case.

I'm not emotional at all, and it is odd you are making such claims. No, I did not have such an experience. I am in favor of giving the same immigration rights to domestic helpers. I do not know why you are in favor of Hong Kong favoring Europeans to have more rights than domestic helpers that could live in HK for decades without the same rights as a white guy on a training visa, or people that are citizens of the same country. I'm probably also right you are a Brexiter or a Le Pen supporter. I think you're too emotional about it to see it more objectively in that case.

I am a lawyer and I am pretty sure I am more familiar with the laws of Hong Kong than you, I even have friends working in the Department of Justice. You said a training visa is not available in all countries--that is true but disingenuous, it is not available for Afghanis, Cubans, Laotians, North Koreans and Mainlanders.

Not sure why your immigration lawyer is quoting 33k per month. He may be saying that to hire an expat in your industry it needs to be the average salary of your industry.

The law is pretty clear that you can even pay less than 12k/month as long as medical benefits, MPF, allowances, etc. are at least 5k/month. I knew plenty of people that were on working visas and earning less than 33k/month. You can look on ESL websites that advertise jobs in HK with visa sponsorship that are much less than 33k/month.

 

[andythinkpad]

The hell?? Isn't it obvious, HK is a small territory bordering a developing country of more then 1 billion people, you do the math.

Also, in theory HK still controls its own immigration and China is not allowed to interfere, the only exception the One-Way permit loophole.

You must be one of the fantasy Hong Kongers who still think HKers lead a better quality of life than nearby mainland regions.

Also, you math is terrible. How can 150 ppl per day possibly "Tibetization" HK which has a population of 7 millions? Go ahead, do the math for me. How many year does China need to fill HK with 50% of mainlanders?

 

[kevm3]

Yeah HK was always this way, well before the handover. Nothing to do with any ulterior motives by the Chinese government. It's just what happens when more and more of the wealth goes to fewer and fewer people with nothing to push it back the other way. End game capitalism

End game of pretty much any economic system out there. The rich will always find ways to circumvent the system so that the majority of the money ends up in their hands.

 

[TheWraith]

I'm not emotional at all, and it is odd you are making such claims. No, I did not have such an experience. I am in favor of giving the same immigration rights to domestic helpers. I do not know why you are in favor of Hong Kong favoring Europeans to have more rights than domestic helpers that could live in HK for decades without the same rights as a white guy on a training visa, or people that are citizens of the same country. I'm probably also right you are a Brexiter or a Le Pen supporter. I think you're too emotional about it to see it more objectively in that case.

I am a lawyer and I am pretty sure I am more familiar with the laws of Hong Kong than you, I even have friends working in the Department of Justice. You said a training visa is not available in all countries--that is true but disingenuous, it is not available for Afghanis, Cubans, Laotians, North Koreans and Mainlanders.

Not sure why your immigration lawyer is quoting 33k per month. He may be saying that to hire an expat in your industry it needs to be the average salary of your industry.

The law is pretty clear that you can even pay less than 12k/month as long as medical benefits, MPF, allowances, etc. are at least 5k/month. I knew plenty of people that were on working visas and earning less than 33k/month. You can look on ESL websites that advertise jobs in HK with visa sponsorship that are much less than 33k/month.

Lol no I didn't say I approve of the way domestic helpers are treated here, where did I say that? Helpers, or any other foreigners working should have the same rights and right to vote, permanent residency etc.

For ESL the immigration is more lenient as English teacher jobs do not command higher salaries, but still there are rules in place there in regards to certification.

 

[TheWraith]

You must be one of the fantasy Hong Kongers who still think HKers lead a better quality of life than nearby mainland regions.

Also, you math is terrible. How can 150 ppl per day possibly "Tibetization" HK which has a population of 7 millions? Go ahead, do the math for me. How many year does China need to fill HK with 50% of mainlanders?

First of all I'm not HK'er. Although HK'ers still objectively lead better quality of life in terms of freedom, safety, better quality education, living environment. Of course this is aside the horrible gap in wealth, and any change in government shackled by Beijing.

My math is perfectly fine, but you do need to learn to read: I didn't say the One Way permit will overflow HK, I was saying if there would be free immigration between China and HK, HK would be overflown. The One Way Permit is a system of Tibetization however, approx one million of 7.5 are new immigrants loyal to the regime: perfect fodder to try to still hold ground in the local elections as just one example.

 

[Laiza]

Man, this is basically a microcosm of what I would expect if the libertarians somehow got into power in the United States.

Thank goodness that'll never happen. Still, we're gonna have our work cut out for us if we wanna reverse all the damage the Trump regime is gonna do to us... sigh.

If only things could be straightforwardly good. Bleh.

 

[Valkerionseven]

As a recent visitor I saw this for myself. Thought it was pretty crazy that a lot of cars on the street were high end, the best schools and areas are clearly rich, but at the same time there are a lot of low end areas and clearly people just making do. Even more surprising was seeing like old people relegated to cleaning night clubs and what not to make money.

Lovely people and nice enough city on the surface though.

 

[Radec]

Really tight housing space out there. Still a great city. Planning to take my family there this August.

As a recent visitor I saw this for myself. Thought it was pretty crazy that a lot of cars on the street were high end, the best schools and areas are clearly rich, but at the same time there are a lot of low end areas and clearly people just making do. Even more surprising was seeing like old people relegated to cleaning night clubs and what not to make money.

Lovely people and nice enough city on the surface though.

Yep, lots of luxury cars.

Saw alot of Tesla too parked in the streets. From all the asian countries I've been, thats the only place I've seen a tesla.

 

[Brinbe]

Horrible small box in the sky future, coming to North American cities very soon.

 

[LyleLanley]

Really tight housing space out there. Still a great city. Planning to take my family there this August.



Yep, lots of luxury cars.

Saw alot of Tesla too parked in the streets. From all the asian countries I've been, thats the only place I've seen a tesla.

Tesla's are actually surprisingly cheap there compared to others cars. Lots of ubers there are Tesla.

 

[Cow Mengde]

Lovely people and nice enough city on the surface though.

If you're a white foreigner. Just don't be Asian and you'll love Hong Kong.

 

[andythinkpad]

First of all I'm not HK'er. Although HK'ers still objectively lead better quality of life in terms of freedom, safety, better quality education, living environment. Of course this is aside the horrible gap in wealth, and any change in government shackled by Beijing.

My math is perfectly fine, but you do need to learn to read: I didn't say the One Way permit will overflow HK, I was saying if there would be free immigration between China and HK, HK would be overflown. The One Way Permit is a system of Tibetization however, approx one million of 7.5 are new immigrants loyal to the regime: perfect fodder to try to still hold ground in the local elections as just one example.

There are so much wrong with your arguments I don't know where to start. You keep using the word "tibetization" which imply mainland chinese and people of hk are of 2 different ethnicities, and you are wrong.

Secondly, you keep using the "overflown" argument to imply HK is "better" and Chinese want to live in HK, when its not the case for a few years.

lastly, why even use the HK will be diluted by mainlander argument when HK will be completely intergrated into China in another 30 years? In 2047, there is be no cheif executive becuase the major will be appointed by beijing. If will be better this way becuase beijing will actually have free hands to get rip of the property oligarhs, and impliment some minimum safe net social wellfare.

 

[TheWraith]

There are so much wrong with your arguments I don't know where to start. You keep using the word "tibetization" which imply mainland chinese and people of hk are of 2 different ethnicities, and you are wrong.

It's not "I" alone who use that word, it's quite widespread perception of what is happening. Just tell me why else did the Chinese government insist on this scheme, while normally HK has the right to control its own immigration?

Secondly, you mistake ethnicity. Sure, they are all ethnically Chinese, but so are Taiwan, Singapore,...who will all tell you they don't feel any affinity towards the PRC. There's no mistaken that the HK culture and identity is very, very different to Mainland China (for better or worse).

Secondly, you keep using the "overflown" argument to imply HK is "better" and Chinese want to live in HK, when its not the case for a few years.

HK is still "better" in terms as described earlier, freedom and rule of law mainly. Chinese still want to live here, one of the very reasons the property market is so heated.

lastly, why even use the HK will be diluted by mainlander argument when HK will be completely intergrated into China in another 30 years? In 2047, there is be no cheif executive becuase the major will be appointed by beijing. If will be better this way becuase beijing will actually have free hands to get rip of the property oligarhs.

It isn't decided what will happen in 30 years, the hope is of course that the communist party's evil dictatorship would have fallen by then, and then many more cards are on the table.

Your last sentence REALLY does not make sense and you don't seem to realise the very problem: The property oligarchs are currently kept in place by Beijing! People want so badly to change the system but it's kept in place by Beijing's hand. If people had the elections they had been promised by both the UK and China, things would look much different, just look towards Taiwan as an example how the wealth gap is not as crippling.

 

[clay_ghost]

Secondly, you mistake ethnicity. Sure, they are all ethnically Chinese, but so are Taiwan, Singapore,...who will all tell you they don't feel any affinity towards the PRC. There's no mistaken that the HK culture and identity is very, very different to Mainland China (for better or worse).



.

A bit off topic but.....
A lot of Chinese Netizen can't understand why Chinese outside of China have no affinity toward China. I always read a lot of comments by them on Singapore's stand on international matters and the common responses are that they don't understand why that a Chinese majority country are not of a stand that is favouring China. They don't understand that we are an independent multiracial country that have our own needs and goals that may be different from China.


Also off topic, Although I do feel that we are still being too pro US in a Trump era and may have pissed off too many countries in a short time.

 

[FreeMufasa]

The fuck is bornemouth on that map of Least affordable. People wanna live there?

 

[andythinkpad]

It's not "I" alone who use that word, it's quite widespread perception of what is happening. Just tell me why else did the Chinese government insist on this scheme, while normally HK has the right to control its own immigration?

Secondly, you mistake ethnicity. Sure, they are all ethnically Chinese, but so are Taiwan, Singapore,...who will all tell you they don't feel any affinity towards the PRC. There's no mistaken that the HK culture and identity is very, very different to Mainland China (for better or worse).

So you shouldn't use that word. You and all other people who use that word. It's different type of cultural erosion. It's not "Tibetization." You are basically putting everything you don't like about China in one neat package and put a bow on it.

Why should I explain the immigration scheme when you ignore my point that the actual immigration number is insignificant? Actually I got an answer for you, because Hong Kong is not sovereign. Hong Kong is not a nation state, not even 30% sovereign. HK is not Singapore, get it?

HK is still "better" in terms as described earlier, freedom and rule of law mainly. Chinese still want to live here, one of the very reasons the property market is so heated.

I know plenty of Hong Kongers who have never set a step on the mainland cities and hold that opinion.

The property market is heated because it's currently a good investment to avoid Chinese yuan inflation, same reason why the Chinese property market is going through the roof. That has nothing to do with HK government artificially throttling the property supply. It's people who is running the HK government (i.e. 100% "pure blood" Hong Kongers) who decided not to build enough apartments to meet the demands. Show me where does it say it in the Basic Law HK can't build as many apartments as they want? Beijing never rule on these kind of stuff. It's 100% HK government's fault that the young people can't afford a matchbox apartment.

It isn't decided what will happen in 30 years, the hope is of course that the communist party's evil dictatorship would have fallen by then, and then many more cards are on the table.

Your last sentence REALLY does not make sense and you don't seem to realise the very problem: The property oligarchs are currently kept in place by Beijing! People want so badly to change the system but it's kept in place by Beijing's hand. If people had the elections they had been promised by both the UK and China, things would look much different, just look towards Taiwan as an example how the wealth gap is not as crippling.

You are wrong about the oligarchs. Li Ka Shing getting his ass out of HK and mainland is one example of Beijing and the HK oligarchs don't share the same interest.

Well both you and me will live long enough to see it in 30 years. It probably will happen before 30 year is up anyway.

 

[andythinkpad]

A bit off topic but.....
A lot of Chinese Netizen can't understand why Chinese outside of China have no affinity toward China. I always read a lot of comments by them on Singapore's stand on international matters and the common responses are that they don't understand why that a Chinese majority country are not of a stand that is favouring China. They don't understand that we are an independent multiracial country that have our own needs and goals that may be different from China.


Also off topic, Although I do feel that we are still being too pro US in a Trump era and may have pissed off too many countries in a short time.

That really depends on the particular chinese forum you go to, the forum I go to don't consider Singaporeans "Chinese". Singapore and Lee Kuan Yew has always taken a pro UK and then pro US position. It makes sense for Singapore's geopolitical position.

OTOH I have seen a couple rabidly pro libertarian/GOP chinese forums based in the US (which doesn't make sense when you think about it.) That doesn't mean it represent the oversea Chinese's political preference.

 

[stilgar]

My first apartment in Paris was 9 square meters. 400€/month. I was very happy because there's a time in life when you actually can live of alcohol and friendship, but this is ridiculous.

 

[Supast4r]

When I went there to study abroad, this articles concerns were extremely apparent once I started talking to the locals.

 

[TheWraith]

So you shouldn't use that word. You and all other people who use that word. It's different type of cultural erosion. It's not "Tibetization." You are basically putting everything you don't like about China in one neat package and put a bow on it.

I like China, where did you get that idea?

Why should I explain the immigration scheme when you ignore my point that the actual immigration number is insignificant?

I didn't ignore it, I proved it was incorrect. As of 2015 the total number of One Way Permit people from the mainland that were put in HK accounted for 12% of the population of HK, you call that insignicant???

Actually I got an answer for you, because Hong Kong is not sovereign. Hong Kong is not a nation state, not even 30% sovereign. HK is not Singapore, get it?

The Basic Law is in force and it stipulates clearly that in matters of immigration HK has all the say.

I know plenty of Hong Kongers who have never set a step on the mainland cities and hold that opinion.

I know plenty who frequent China a lot, and hold that opinion. Myself included, as I lived in China for two years

The property market is heated because it's currently a good investment to avoid Chinese yuan inflation, same reason why the Chinese property market is going through the roof. That has nothing to do with HK government artificially throttling the property supply. It's people who is running the HK government (i.e. 100% "pure blood" Hong Kongers) who decided not to build enough apartments to meet the demands.

Ok here is were it shows you do not seem to be updated on HK's current affairs. There is no "HK'ers ruling HK" as was originally promised. Currently the whole system is rigged by Beijing were they chose their puppet cronies (currently CY Leung's "government") who do Beijing's bidding directly. There are no initiatives by the HK government itself, everything is dictated through Beijing's Liason Office in the city, who, since the start of CY Leung's government especially have been overtly active interfering in all aspects of HK society. Any initiative to move away from this topdown led charade, are dismissed. Just look at the way John Tsang lost the "election", and Carrie Lam was put in place as she had proven herself to be a willing puppet to Beijing the past few years.

Show me where does it say it in the Basic Law HK can't build as many apartments as they want? Beijing never rule on these kind of stuff. It's 100% HK government's fault that the young people can't afford a matchbox apartment.

I don't know where to start. Also please look into the out "Ding Kuen" law, which basically makes huge parts in the New Territories artifically impossible to build housing.

You are wrong about the oligarchs. Li Ka Shing getting his ass out of HK and mainland is one example of Beijing and the HK oligarchs don't share the same interest.

Well both you and me will live long enough to see it in 30 years. It probably will happen before 30 year is up anyway.

So you agree the 50 years no change agreement was a sham? Well we're making progress!

 

[TheWraith]

That really depends on the particular chinese forum you go to, the forum I go to don't consider Singaporeans "Chinese". Singapore and Lee Kuan Yew has always taken a pro UK and then pro US position. It makes sense for Singapore's geopolitical position.

OTOH I have seen a couple rabidly pro libertarian/GOP chinese forums based in the US (which doesn't make sense when you think about it.) That doesn't mean it represent the oversea Chinese's political preference.

You also ignored my correction on the difference between ethnictity and identity. In any polls most HK'ers do not identify themselves as Chinese but as HK'ers first and foremost. The same for Taiwan.

 

[Valkerionseven]

Yep, lots of luxury cars.

Saw alot of Tesla too parked in the streets. From all the asian countries I've been, thats the only place I've seen a tesla.

Yeah, was the first time seeing a Tesla in person, not to mention the sheer amount of them.

If you're a white foreigner. Just don't be Asian and you'll love Hong Kong.

Not white, but was paling around with my friends family who are native to the Hong Kong area, and some white friends. All the people I met were nice to me Hong Kong native for generations or recent foreign resident... aside from the Middle Eastern people I met there... they were all dicks for whatever reason. Though purely anecdotal obviously. Stood out to me because I've never run into a middle eastern person who was rude to me, but there, every single one haha.

Either way nice for a visit, but happy to be back home.

 

[blummer102]

I live in HK. My apartment's about 160 square feet. I gotta pay 9000 HKD a month (bout 1154 USD) for that. Sucks.

Only way to get cheaper these days is to move to a far off area (which isn't very convenient or doable with my current job), share with people, or live with your family. I had flatmates for years and got sick of them and I don't have any family here, so it is what it is.

 

[TheWraith]

Ties into my previous posts on the subject:

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/06/26/a...-handover-exit0200AMStoryLink&linkId=39132591

Hong Kongers look for an exit 20 years after handover to China


Hong Kong (CNN)Terence Tam's dad fled to Hong Kong from China during the political chaos of the Cultural Revolution to make a better life for himself and his family.

Then a British colony, the city became home to a huge number of refugees fleeing Communism in the 1960s and 1970s.
Now 39, Tam says he's ready to make another escape, 20 years after the UK handed sovereignty over the city to China.
While Hong Kong is one of the most affluent cities in the world, he says it's now in the throes of its own political upheaval.
"I want to see if I can do the same for my family (as my father did for us)," he says. "I'm not satisfied with the situation in Hong Kong. The political situation, the government. We have so many complaints."

'I feel like we are refugees'