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[YianGaruga]

For the second time in this thread I'm apt to agree with Varth here. If you guys are set on the one run and done model, that's perfectly fine, but it has to be done in such a way that it's a guage of actual demand and not just a magnet for scalpers.

You say on your page "We focus on bringing games that were previously only available in a digital format to a physical medium", and having the focus too much on manufactured rarity totally defeats that purpose. I know you're trying to balance that with "We believe that as collectors and consumers you should be able to trust when we say our games are limited. They are!", but that can still be done with open ways to guage interest so that prints can be catered to those who put forth a modest effort to get one.

Does anyone actually read what LRG is posting here?

We're going to be doing a significantly larger run for CSH, so I'd highly recommend not getting too worried about it. I know I said that about Breach & Clear - but I honestly never expected B&C to do so well. I went in to CSH knowing Zeboyd has a big fanbase. I've always known it would need a more significant run. We're also covering two platforms on CSH so there will be a lot to go around between Vita and PS4.

On a different note, I like the idea someone threw out about multiple launch times. Half at 11:30AM and the other half at 11:30PM. Every time zone would be covered fairly.

Future releases will definitely have a 1 - 2 copy per household limit for at least the first 24 hours.

There really isn't much of an advantage to an "open order" model if there are enough systems in place to ensure that they can meet demand
You're focussing on the "rarity" aspect too much and basing your criticism on an intentionally very limited test run

 

[Varth]

Does anyone actually read what LRG is posting here?

Did YOU read what we're trying to get under scrutiny in the first place?

It's not about having a larger run per se, but fulfilling demand until it's there. I'm perfectly fine with initial 1500 run for ALL games. But as long as there's still demand, just print another batch.

The "intentionally very limited print run" said there is. So gauge, even raise price if you need, but do it. It would defeat collecting? Dont' think so. They would be hyper niche games in ridiculously low numbers anyway. It would just defeat the purpouse of monetizing in the short term, and it's nothing I'll lose sleep about.

 

[MrFortyFive]

Does anyone actually read what LRG is posting here?





There really isn't much of an advantage to an "open order" model if there are enough systems in place to ensure that they can meet demand
You're focussing on the "rarity" aspect too much and basing your criticism on an intentionally very limited test run

I read all that, and it is a huge improvement for sure, but having multiple launches and more supply are still very open to the same problems if the print runs don't have an actual basis in measured demand. Their capability of doing so is beyond my ability to know, so if I'm being unreasonable, I hope LRG corrects me.

But yes, it was a test, they're a small, new business, and I am focusing particularly hard on one aspect of their business model. I just want them to succeed because I love the idea.

Regardless of any qualms or criticisms I have of this first run, I will be ready and waiting for their next release and spreading the word.

 

[May16]

Also, I really wish people would stop arguing that "you were warned in advance/set alarms/gitgood". I don't want to COMPETE to buy a game.

For fucking real.

"Dance for me, customers! Dance! Dance! You're not dancing hard enough! Oooohhh, you don't get a copy, sorry. Off to eBay you go. Hope you have 300 pounds...."

Just really worried about how this will turn out. :/

 

[GAMEPROFF]

Then buy the digital version?

 

[YianGaruga]

We went from

"no physical copies available" to "we found a way to make a limited number of copies available" and everybody was really excited and happy (if you read the earlier pages of this thread)

but suddenly that isn't good enough anymore and people are demanding them to change their business model to "make physical copies available to everybody forever"

ridiculous.

We wouldn't see the same reactions if it took B&C 1-2 weeks to sell out, so I can only assume people are overreacting based on a single data point

 

[GAMEPROFF]

We went from

"no physical copies available" to "we found a way to make a limited number of copies available" and everybody was really excited and happy (if you read the earlier pages of this thread)

but suddenly that isn't good enough anymore and people are demanding them to change their business model to "make physical copies available for everybody forever"

ridiculous.

We wouldn't have the same reaction if it took B&C 1-2 weeks to sell out, so I can only assume people are overreacting based on a single data point

Someone should tell them that these are collector items which always should be limited.

But hey, these people most likely think that the Call of Duty Collectors Edition is high limited, too.

 

[Stallion Dan]

Are they actually considering printing more now? I thought the main premise behind the company was a single limited print run. With that business model there will always be people that miss out on the Physical Version. Luckily, there is a digital version available. I think going back on your word on the very first release is essentially against everything they stood for and everything they have said.

Unless you're running with the attitude "Haha I got this and you cannot get one" then printing more copies will never ever be a bad thing.


Is there a reason cannot lock in pre-orders with payment by a certain date and print enough to meet orders?

 

[YianGaruga]

Unless you're running with the attitude "Haha I got this and you cannot get one" then printing more copies will never ever be a bad thing.

For a single person? Sure

For the business model and for LRG themselves, making games available forever can fundamentally change the demand for future titles and the way they have to operate.

Ordering a single run, selling out and shipping it seems much easier to handle than keeping track of demand for all older titles forever
Not to mention that reordering older titles could take manpower away from doing new ones.

Is there a reason cannot lock in pre-orders with payment by a certain date and print enough to meet orders?

In the end that is pretty much crowdfunding, which is risky and requires trust from customers.

 

[RadioHeadAche]

Limiting it to one per customer would help, right?

 

[Stallion Dan]

For a single person? Sure

For the business model and for LRG themselves, making games available forever can fundamentally change the demand for future titles and the way they have to operate.

RIght, so you're saying the business model is based on demand of "Haha I got this and you cannot get one". Because if more people can get it then other will not want it anymore.

Crappy attitude if a business using it.

In the end that is pretty much crowdfunding, which is risky and requires trust from customers.

If people have paid, what's the risk?

 

[YianGaruga]

RIght, so you're saying the business model is based on demand of "Haha I got this and you cannot get one". Because if more people can get it then other will not want it anymore.

Crappy attitude.

That's not at all what I said, no

 

[Varth]

suddenly that isn't good enough anymore and people are demanding them to change their business model to "make physical copies available to everybody forever"

ridiculous.

Really? And you tell others to read? What part ot "gauge demand with no guarantees*->evaluate commercial terms->print another tailored batch" seems "make physical copies available to everybody forever"? If demand is there and there's still commercial sense in fullfilling it, do it. If it dies, that's it. On such small numbers you have the instruments to make very precise decisions on all the steps.

*EDIT: maybe even by having to put up some money as preorder, if feasible.

 

[U2NUMB]

Some of you should NEVER look into collecting things like Funko Pops.. Try hundreds of thousands of people trying to get their hands on some VERY limited runs.

But seriously this IS their model.. hell its the NAME OF THE COMPANY. There is nothing wrong with what they are doing.. I hope to get my hands on every one but if I miss out I will move on and try to get the next one. If I really really wanted that one then I have to look to the second hand market which might cost me more money... but also maybe not. Let those prices sit and see where they end up.. who knows what the real demand is right now.

Anyways I say keep with the plan.. keep doing what your doing... look to the next release and dont let pressure influence how you run your company.

 

[outunderthestars]

Some of you should NEVER look into collecting things like Funko Pops.. Try hundreds of thousands of people trying to get their hands on some VERY limited runs.

But seriously this IS their model.. hell its the NAME OF THE COMPANY. There is nothing wrong with what they are doing.. I hope to get my hands on every one but if I miss out I will move on and try to get the next one. If I really really wanted that one then I have to look to the second hand market which might cost me more money... but also maybe not. Let those prices sit and see where they end up.. who knows what the real demand is right now.

Anyways I say keep with the plan.. keep doing what your doing... look to the next release and dont let pressure influence how you run your company.

Well said.

 

[Canis lupus]

Really? And you tell others to read? What part ot "gauge demand with no guarantees*->evaluate commercial terms->print another tailored batch" seems "make physical copies available to everybody forever"? If demand is there and there's still commercial sense in fullfilling it, do it. If it dies, that's it. On such small numbers you have the instruments to make very precise decisions on all the steps.

*EDIT: maybe even by having to put up some money as preorder, if feasible.

Or the pre-order model like Class of Heroes. Say game X gets 1696 orders, that's how many discs they've already sold. Then press 1800, 2000, 2500 or whatever round number of discs and then closer to release sell the surplus to anyone who didn't/couldn't pre-order.

This way everyone gets what they want. 1. LRG knows how much demand there is 2. Everyone wanting a physical copy get one

 

[emb]

I'm not a big fan of the 'these are ACTUALLY limited, no reprints, no open preorders' stuff. I like collecting, but I buy this stuff to play. In my mind the scarcity isn't a selling point, but an unfortunate side effect of a niche product. The more copies that can be financially justified, the better imo.

I agree with the post a couple above mine though... that IS the name and that IS the business model. It's to be expected, and totally understandable. A decent chunk of sales are probably being driven because of people afraid they can't get it later, or people trying to resell. It's way better than the alternative of getting nothing, and I love that LRG are giving us physical prints of games that would otherwise not exist for me.

By the way, congrats on the successful launch of the first one, LRG.

 

[Wereroku]

Or the pre-order model like Class of Heroes. Say game X gets 1696 orders, that's how many discs they've already sold. Then press 1800, 2000, 2500 or whatever round number of discs and then closer to release sell the surplus to anyone who didn't/couldn't pre-order.

This way everyone gets what they want. 1. LRG knows how much demand there is 2. Everyone wanting a physical copy get one

They don't want to have to deal with a preorder system probably. I mean hell I back all of Gaijinworks stuff and it is actually quite nice to pay and probably get my game the next week because they have already printed everything as opposed to waiting several months. They have come out a said that they printed fewer than they should have on this run. It will be adjusted in the future but as they have said they don't want to immediately break their promise of one time limited runs and anger a decent portion of their customers. It sucks but hopefully people can try to grab the second batch after they limited it to 1 per person.

 

[5amshift]

Don't expect another 1,500 run from us unless a developer specifically requests it.

Not sure if any other game could get lower then, making B&C the rarest Vita game..
As far as PS4 retail goes, Retro City still has it at 2,000 produced and I would love to see LRG beat that

 

[Varth]

Some of you should NEVER look into collecting things like Funko Pops..

Some of us are not interested AT ALL in collecting Funko Pops. Or games, if that means I have to jump through hoops to make it to some deadline. That's the whole point of our suggestions. "I missed this but I'll make sure to get the next one" is nonsense to me. If they publish a game I like I'll buy it. Collecting (rarity over request) VS providing availability (request over rarity). I hoped they would focus on the latter. It's getting painfully clear that they're going after people who's more interested in the former.

 

[dolabla]

Just wondering, any time frame on when our games are gonna be shipped out?

 

[Shizuka]

Some of us are not interested AT ALL in collecting Funko Pops. Or games, if that means I have to jump through hoops to make it to some deadline. That's the whole point of our suggestions. "I missed this but I'll make sure to get the next one" is nonsense to me. If they publish a game I like I'll buy it. Collecting (rarity over request) VS providing availability (request over rarity). I hoped they would focus on the latter. It's getting painfully clear that they're going after people who's more interested in the former.

It was always clear from the get-go, just from the name of the company. They're not in the business of making sure everybody who wants a copy gets a copy.

 

[DeuceGamer]

Unless you're running with the attitude "Haha I got this and you cannot get one" then printing more copies will never ever be a bad thing.


Is there a reason cannot lock in pre-orders with payment by a certain date and print enough to meet orders?

It goes against everything they seemed to have created the company for. They named the company Limited Run Games and stated from the very beginning that they would do small print runs and then those games would never be reprinted. They are clearly catering to a niche collector market. The majority of people that bought a physical copy are most likely collectors who want a physical version and some of those bought it because they like to purchase games with a rare physical print run.

In this case it would be extremely bad for them to reprint the game. The company came out and stated from the beginning that these were limited and would never be reprinted. In doing so they were talking directly to the type of collectors that they wish to cater too. If they go back on that now, they risk losing their credibility as well as those consumers that were on board with what they stood for from the beginning. In that aspect, printing more would be "a bad thing".

We're going to be doing a significantly larger run for CSH, so I'd highly recommend not getting too worried about it. I know I said that about Breach & Clear - but I honestly never expected B&C to do so well. I went in to CSH knowing Zeboyd has a big fanbase. I've always known it would need a more significant run. We're also covering two platforms on CSH so there will be a lot to go around between Vita and PS4.

We're sticking to our guns on the set production numbers but are going to do whatever we can to make sure people have a chance to get our games. Feel free to keep suggesting potential solutions.

My primary fear about open preorders is that they would take a lot of buyers out of the system who want something "traditionally" limited. Some of the games I want to put out would never be able to garner enough preorders to justify existence. They might only get 600 or 700 people who are just interested in owning the game itself. Add in the limited component and you've suddenly doubled the people who want it. Both types of customers are needed to make physical versions of these games a reality. Take one out and we might not even be able to hit Sony's minimum order quantities for some games. I hope that doesn't sound completely insane. I don't want to intentionally position these games as reseller bait but I do strongly believe they need to be limited to be successful. They don't need to be as limited as Breach & Clear was, though. Don't expect another 1,500 run from us unless a developer specifically requests it. A 4,000 or 5,000 copy run is still limited, after all.

On a different note, I like the idea someone threw out about multiple launch times. Half at 11:30AM and the other half at 11:30PM. Every time zone would be covered fairly.

I mentioned it earlier, but I think people underestimate the number of collectors that want to secure their copy of a Physical game. I would speculate the majority of the people purchasing this game done it mainly due to it being the only way to get a Physical copy and because it was so limited.

Unfortunately, your not going to satisfy everyone. If you print too many copies, a lot of collectors aren't going to care as much. If you do more 1,500 print runs, people will complain when they miss it. Even if you print 3,500-5,000 there will almost assuredly be people that still miss out on some of the more popular titles. That said, you are "Limited Run Games" so I would expect that you are not wanting to start printing 50,000 games (or even half that), and as you said you would lose sales from those collectors that want to own a copy of a limited run game.

We went from

"no physical copies available" to "we found a way to make a limited number of copies available" and everybody was really excited and happy (if you read the earlier pages of this thread)

but suddenly that isn't good enough anymore and people are demanding them to change their business model to "make physical copies available to everybody forever"

ridiculous.

We wouldn't see the same reactions if it took B&C 1-2 weeks to sell out, so I can only assume people are overreacting based on a single data point

Agree. Unfortunately, this will happen anytime someone misses out. You are exactly right though. Everyone was excited and happy that there would be at least a few copies of the game available in a Physical format. Suddenly now that people missed it they are getting upset, though they seemed happy at the premise of the company.

I think LRG handled it well, especially for their first release. They provided the exact time the game would be available to order. They game was easily available at that time for anyone that wanted to order it. I understand that people work and may have missed it. Unfortunately though, that happens. LRG stated they are looking at selling future games in multiple "windows" to allow people that miss the first offering another chance to grab the game.

 

[LimitedRunGames]

Just wondering, any time frame on when our games are gonna be shipped out?

A batch was shipped out this morning. We are working on the rest right now.

 

[NDPsycho]

Some of us are not interested AT ALL in collecting Funko Pops. Or games, if that means I have to jump through hoops to make it to some deadline. That's the whole point of our suggestions. "I missed this but I'll make sure to get the next one" is nonsense to me. If they publish a game I like I'll buy it. Collecting (rarity over request) VS providing availability (request over rarity). I hoped they would focus on the latter. It's getting painfully clear that they're going after people who's more interested in the former.

If you're not into collecting games, why do you care then? Download the game instead. If it isn't available in your market create an account for the country that it is. Clearly this is aimed at collectors. If you're a collector you find a way to be available when it goes on sale. It's not like you can't play the game if you want to. Let's at least be honest about things. You seem to want it for the same reasons many collectors do.

 

[dolabla]

A batch was shipped out this morning. We are working on the rest right now.

Awesome! Can't wait!

 

[outunderthestars]

A batch was shipped out this morning. We are working on the rest right now.

Oh man, I hope you got some photos of that pile of games.

Some of us are not interested AT ALL in collecting Funko Pops. Or games, if that means I have to jump through hoops to make it to some deadline. That's the whole point of our suggestions. "I missed this but I'll make sure to get the next one" is nonsense to me. If they publish a game I like I'll buy it. Collecting (rarity over request) VS providing availability (request over rarity). I hoped they would focus on the latter. It's getting painfully clear that they're going after people who's more interested in the former.

Again, the name of the company is Limited Run games.

it is clearly aimed at collectors and the like. If you're really upset that you missed out on Breach & Clear and are concerned about availabilty worry not, it is available on the Playstation Store.

 

[Varth]

It was always clear from the get-go, just from the name of the company. They're not in the business of making sure everybody who wants a copy gets a copy.

Words.

"Limited Run" as in "limited to demand" is still limited. "Limited Run" as in "not gonna reprint after initial demand is met" is still limited. "Limited Run" as in "fuck, we're working with niche games, of course they're gonna be limited numbers" is still limited.

It's just that they're opting to stick to Limited Run in the worst sense possible. To artificially drive demand for future titles regardless of quality of the game. And as a player, that's the worst scenario possible.

Also "They're not in the business of making sure everybody who wants a copy gets a copy" must be the most awkward thing I read in this discussion. Kinda sounds like "they're not in for money". Of course if they were certain to sell all the stock they would print more. It's just a matter of exploring risk/reward balance. But they shackled themselves to people who seem more content with them staying low profile since it would mean future titles will have lower runs and be more valued.

EDIT:

If you're not into collecting games, why do you care then? Download the game instead. If it isn't available in your market create an account for the country that it is. Clearly this is aimed at collectors. If you're a collector you find a way to be available when it goes on sale. It's not like you can't play the game if you want to. Let's at least be honest about things. You seem to want it for the same reasons many collectors do.

Key parts you're missing is "buying this for the games I like" and "not for their value". I like physical games, and have a crush on small boxes (oh, the cute GameCube jap boxes), tiny cartdriges (oh, that PC Engine HUcards), and mi PS Vita. I'm not into collecting as in "not gonna buy Saturday Morning RPG or Breach and Clear (for other than supporting) since not interested, no matter how valuble they become. Buying Cosmic Star Heroine since I like it (I kinda understood it's coming out, right?) if I can, on the other hand, no matter if they end up being of value or not. Of course, if it goes down this road, dunno. Not putting up a clock to BUY anything. Not even if I got it for free, probably.

 

[outunderthestars]

Words.

"Limited Run" as in limited to demand is still limited. "Limited run" as in "not gonna reprint after initial demand is met" is still limited. "Limited Run" as in "fuck, we're working with niche games, of course they're gonna be limited numbers" is still limited.

It's just that they're opting to stick to Limited Run in the worst sense possible. To artificially drive demand for future titles regardless of quality of the game. And as a player, that's the worst scenario possible.

Also "They're not in the business of making sure everybody who wants a copy gets a copy" must be the most awkward thing I read in this discussion. Kinda sounds like "they're not in for money". Of course if they were certain to sell all the stock they would print more. It's just a matter of exploring risk/reward balance. But they shackled themselves to people who seem more content with them staying low profile since it would mean future titles will have lower runs and be more valued.

Really not trying to be mean, but you honestly have a very poor grasp of the collector's market and how companies operate within it.

 

[Shizuka]

I don't get what you're trying here, Varth. It's been made clear by several members that your opinion does not align with what LRG is doing, that this is not aimed towards you, since they're doing limited runs and steer away from reprints to ensure the product is actually limited, still you argue that the company should change its vision to match yours.

I'm not sure what you're expecting, to be honest.

 

[YianGaruga]

Oh man, I hope you got some photos of that pile of games.

Douglas is hard at work shipping out all the Breach & Clear orders!

 

[Varth]

Really not trying to be mean, but you honestly have a very poor grasp of the collector's market and how companies operate within it.

No prob. But you seem to overestimate my interest in "the collector's market" and the scalping logic behind them, regardless of how may times I explained I'm not interested in any of that side of the operation. If I had to choose between having all people experience great games I like and keeping the value of my items high I wouldn't think about it for a second. I keep phisical stuff around because I like to play them and want to be able to play them in 20 years when Vita and PS Store are no more around.

I don't get what you're trying here, Varth. It's been made clear by several members that your opinion does not align with what LRG is doing, that this is not aimed towards you, since they're doing limited runs and steer away from reprints to ensure the product is actually limited, still you argue that the company should change its vision to match yours.

I'm not sure what you're expecting, to be honest.

I'm interested in all that only from the "god, they're publishing physical Vita games" standpoint. I expected (still do, hence the persistence ) them to become publishers of any good game not released phisically in any quantity the market can absorb. Not producers of artificially rare random stuff.
We're talking about PRINTING new stuff, ffs. Not about the offer/demand of Sapphire.

 

[YianGaruga]

I'm interested in all that only from the "god, they're publishing physical Vita games" standpoint. I expected (still do, hence the persistence ) them to become publishers of any good game not released phisically in any quantity the market can absorb. Not producers of artificially rare random stuff.
We're talking about PRINTING new stuff, ffs. Not about the offer/demand of Sapphire.

If printing random quantities of super small games on demand was so easy and financially viable, everbody would be doing it right now.

As I see it this operation is only possible because it's a very simple process (sign game -> produce copies -> sell out -> next one). And that includes increased demand due to scarcity and the collector's market.

You're arguing based on a hypothetical situation of you (or anyone else) not having enough time to get a game that you want. You won't have to have an alarm clock in the future to buy a game, because they're making sure everybody who is interested can get one during the limited one-time sale period.

 

[hawk2025]

Ah, if only estimating demand was so easy.

Varth is in fantasy land, including the concept of there being no incentives to print good games just because of limited quantities.

Do not fall in the trap of losing focus of your market, LGR. You'll end up with a room full of unsold stock in a flash and not even understand why that happened.

 

[Varth]

If printing random quantities of super small games on demand was so easy and financially viable, everbody would be doing it right now.

If anybody asked for RANDOM quantities you would have a point. But I've been asking the exact opposite for pages.

EDIT: For the seemingly unlimited run of tl;dr people

"gauge demand with no guarantees*->evaluate commercial terms->print another tailored batch"

Doesn't get any less random or more market focused than that.

 

[NotMSRP]

Saturday Morning RPG has RCR DX beat at 1980 vs 2000.

Try the Taco Bell PS4 promotion model, or movie theatre schedule, where one copy is released into the wild every 10 minutes for a week?

Even if I know the next scheduled time, circumstances could prevent me still. I'm in favor of a minimum two day window.

For those who are ordering multiple copies (like beyond 2), LRG could require they be each separate orders so no discount shipping cost as a slowdown method.

What is the highest print run that can be still considered a limited run?

Anyone object to this kind of reprint: extra copies to replace damaged/defective copies? Got to mail in your copy for the reprinted one. Total units in circulation is still the same.

I don't mind if LRG does more reprints as long it isn't too numerous.

Next one is Turkey day Thursday November 26.

Can try polling to see level of interest which is cheap and easy. Actual print run will need to be lower because of yield %. # of actual buyers is less than interested buyers according to the latest Gaijinworks sales vs poll.

 

[YianGaruga]

If anybody asked for RANDOM quantities you would have a point. But I've been asking the exact opposite for pages.

EDIT: For the seemingly unlimited run of tl;dr people

Doesn't get any less random or more market focused than that.

Good job focusing on semantics and ignoring the majority of my post. I think I'll do the same from here.

 

[hawk2025]

If anybody asked for RANDOM quantities you would have a point. But I've been asking the exact opposite for pages.

EDIT: For the seemingly unlimited run of tl;dr people



Doesn't get any less random or more market focused than that.

It's not tl;dr -- your flow chart has no basis on reality and the challenges of estimating demand. It's nonsense, and you might as well add "-> ???? -> profit".

 

[autoduelist]

Add in the limited component and you've suddenly doubled the people who want it. Both types of customers are needed to make physical versions of these games a reality. Take one out and we might not even be able to hit Sony's minimum order quantities for some games. I hope that doesn't sound completely insane.

No, this is perfectly reasonable and makes absolute sense. Those in here complaining and wishing for pie in the sky scenarios do not understand the economics of small print runs in media.

I found your comment on exclusivity bumping up total sales interesting.

I recently gave up collecting vinyl as I was sick of getting excited for a release or finding out about a release after the fact only to realize I had no chance of securing one.

This culture of driving up profits by excluding others from enjoying a product is toxic and one I feel becomes even more counterintuitive as we move towards more media as service models. Movies, music and even games to some degree are lowering the barrier of entry so that the experience can be shared.

I wish you luck in your venture and this thread alone proves the demand is there I just don't wish to support it anymore.

You are asking for the digital future. These games already exist digital. If you want a physical copy, then by definition you are putting yourself at the feet of physical limitations. Digital has infinite stock, zero or near zero inventory fees, easy/quick worldwide distribution.... physical has none of those things.

Also - i never had issues buying limited vinyl. I doubt many people bought to flip -- most were people in the scene.

Did YOU read what we're trying to get under scrutiny in the first place?

It's not about having a larger run per se, but fulfilling demand until it's there. I'm perfectly fine with initial 1500 run for ALL games. But as long as there's still demand, just print another batch.

The "intentionally very limited print run" said there is. So gauge, even raise price if you need, but do it. It would defeat collecting? Dont' think so. They would be hyper niche games in ridiculously low numbers anyway. It would just defeat the purpouse of monetizing in the short term, and it's nothing I'll lose sleep about.

We wouldn't even get our first batch.

Not to mention, you're being completely naive to the simple truths of small batch printing. You're acting as if they can just snap their fingers and produce another 1500 without risk; there is always risk. Keeping inventory on hand is expensive, and they'd be pushing away the collectors market to do so.

I mean, let's say they were 'Everybody Gets Them' games. They print 1500 games with the promise to print more. Collectors don't bite, but that's okay, over the course of a week the first batch still sells out. So they see if people want more, get a bunch of emails, print another 1500... and sell 200. Bye bye, Everybody Gets Them games, sorry you got buried under your own inventory. Would that happen for sure? Of course not - -but it's a serious risk, and it's a risk you're not taking into consideration in your scenario.

Limiting the run expands the initial market and limits risk for small batch printing. That's the economics of it. It gets physical copies out there. Do some abuse it? Sure. But it's still best-case scenario for all involved -- they sell out and many get physical copies.

Unless you're running with the attitude "Haha I got this and you cannot get one" then printing more copies will never ever be a bad thing.

Is there a reason cannot lock in pre-orders with payment by a certain date and print enough to meet orders?

There are many reasons. I already mentioned some in an earlier post. A small company assumes large risk doing it this way.

For example -- if you do a small print run for 1500 you know your risk is, say, $15000 or $20000 out of pocket -- but given the market you know you're likely to sell out or at least break even.

If you take preorders, and suddenly instead of 1500 you're now printing 10k copies... well, now you're sitting on 10k * $25 = $250,000 dollars. You've now just turned a relatively small project into a massive undertaking -- just think of all the packaging/shipping/etc. More importantly, if something goes wrong -- say inventory gets damaged or their is a problem with a supplier, you do not have the funds to fix it. And there's also a delay now -- so instead of getting orders and shipping out right away, you've got people asking for refunds [maybe demanding them angrily if there is a delay for some reason]... it's all a recipe to potentially lose your shirt.

TLDR - you open yourself up to huge risk that is not present with the current system. Is it doable? Sure. But it's a completely different animal and not nearly as simple as some make it out to be.

No prob. But you seem to overestimate my interest in "the collector's market" and the scalping logic behind them, regardless of how may times I explained I'm not interested in any of that side of the operation.

Your lack of interest in the topic does not change the economics of the topic.

You are also conflating 'collector logic' and 'scalper logic' and acting as if they are interchangeable. They are not. Just because someone likes collecting rare things doesn't mean they plan to flip them or are scalpers.

 

[emb]

Something that might be a good middle ground would be to have a short, limited, time window of open pre-orders. Non refundable, 1 per customer. Then plan some surplus based on that, and open sales as they do now, keep going until they're gone. Make it very clear during the latter part that x out of y copies are still available. Stays limited, but offers some flexibility.

Of course that's not simple, requires gauging how many to print for the main sale at the end. But over time the numbers from each game might start to show trends for estimating that.

Iirc, the break even point for this one was around 25% sell through. Maybe I'm not understanding correctly, but that required percentage should decrease with higher numbers of copies ordered, right? Anyway, it sounds like (and I'm hoping that) they have some room to play around and see what works best for them.

 

[hawk2025]

The break-even point will change once LRG is splitting the revenue with the dev.


Excellent post autoduelist.

 

[Varth]

Good job focusing on semantics and ignoring the majority of my post. I think I'll do the same from here.

Didn't mean to "ignore". The rest of the post was stuff I already expressed my opinion on many times. Kinda tiring to repeat same stuff again and again.

It's not tl;dr -- your flow chart has no basis on reality and the challenges of estimating demand. It's nonsense, and you might as well add "-> ???? -> profit".

No, this is perfectly reasonable and makes absolute sense. Those in here complaining and wishing for pie in the sky scenarios do not understand the economics of small print runs in media.

We wouldn't even get our first batch.

Not to mention, you're being completely naive to the simple truths of small batch printing. You're acting as if they can just snap their fingers and produce another 1500 without risk; there is always risk. Keeping inventory on hand is expensive, and they'd be pushing away the collectors market to do so.

I mean, let's say they were 'Everybody Gets Them' games. They print 1500 games with the promise to print more. Collectors don't bite, but that's okay, over the course of a week the first batch still sells out. So they see if people want more, get a bunch of emails, print another 1500... and sell 200. Bye bye, Everybody Gets Them games, sorry you got buried under your own inventory. Would that happen for sure? Of course not - -but it's a serious risk, and it's a risk you're not taking into consideration in your scenario.

I love how everybody claims to be such an expert on the economics of small print runs when you make a willingly simple example and then proceeds to dish out stuff as simple and pie-in-the-skysh, or even worse, to show said expertise.

Why would you assume they become so reckless with the second run instead of being more cautious? I already mentioned that I have no problem at all at them being hyper-conservative for subsequent runs, both in number and price, even while having not numbered/variant covered editions to please "collectors". I'd just like them to CHECK interest. Then they can make an informed decision. Hence, the hope for orders to stay open even after the end of the stock.

 

[hawk2025]

You have a fundamental misunderstanding on the difference between an illustrative example and the drawing of conclusions based on faulty assumptions.

He did the former, you've done the latter.

I'm not going to engage with this further and make the thread more toxic. Congrats to LGR and I look forward to the next announcements

 

[autoduelist]

I love how everybody claims to be such an expert on the economics of small print runs when you make a willingly simple example and then proceeds to dish out stuff as simple and pie-in-the-skysh, or even worse, to show said expertise.

Why would you assume they become so reckless with the second run instead of being more cautious? I already mentioned that I have no problem at all at them being hyper-conservative for subsequent runs, both in number and price, even while having not numbered/variant covered editions to please "collectors". I'd just like them to CHECK interest. Then they can make an informed decision. Hence, the hope for orders to stay open even after the end of the stock.

Maybe because I've actually been there before? I have around 10-15 large boxes of various inventory in my guest room -- overstock from a number of different projects, most of which were successful.

1500 already is 'hyper conservative'. They have already stated there are minimum print runs, and you can't vary cost the way you suggest. You cannot 'check' interest without taking preorders, as getting people to say they are interested is not the same as getting people to open their wallet. This -was- them "checking interest".

Preorders aren't a perfect gauge for niche products - it's very hard to tell if that means there is a ton of interest out there, or if everybody interested was so interested they already got in on the preorder. [that was our biggest issue, actually -- the only project we took a big loss on had the most preorders, so we did a double sized print run... whoops. thankfully it didn't sink us or anything].

The simple, most direct answer is this -- if you want it a different way, do it a different way. Endlessly complaining and threatening boycotting in a thread where someone else is actually getting it done is of questionable value to anyone.

 

[NinjamicWZ]

https://twitter.com/MixedBagGames/status/660093254298427392

Mixed Bag Games is twitter polling interest in a physical release for Futuridium EP Deluxe, which would also probably predicate them being keen on future interest for a physical release of Forma.8 when it releases.

 

[LimitedRunGames]

Iirc, the break even point for this one was around 25% sell through. Maybe I'm not understanding correctly, but that required percentage should decrease with higher numbers of copies ordered, right? Anyway, it sounds like (and I'm hoping that) they have some room to play around and see what works best for them.

Nope, unfortunately there's no sliding scale for cart and disc costs, what we pay per unit at 2,000 is what we pay at 10,000. Components like artwork, manuals, etc do go down in price but they only affect the overall PPU by a couple cents - not really enough to make bigger runs more viable.

Our break even point is always going to be around the same place, and it's actually closer to 35% - 25% was bad math from me in the heat of the moment, haha.

EDIT: Actually even that is wrong - if the developer chooses things like reversible cover art, disc art variants, foil embossing, manuals, etc. - the PPU can rise somewhat considerably. Our break even point could end up at high as 50% depending on configuration.

 

[outunderthestars]

Back on topic: How awesome is it that they are shipping games already? I love that I will have my game in my hands early next week.

 

[dallow_bg]

Back on topic: How awesome is it that they are shipping games already? I love that I will have my game in my hands early next week.

I love that. Almost no waiting.

 

[LimitedRunGames]

I remember a limited edition video game related art print site that actually had some pretty crazy requirements to put an order through. I wish I could remember the name of the site, but I could actually take some notes from them and apply those to future runs.

For example, if they offered a Zelda print they would ask potential customers to send them a picture of their two favorite Zelda games from their collection. Once received, that customer could order the print.

We could do something like that on our end. 100 copies of each game could go up for sale early - fans wanting to buy them would have to jump through a game specific hoop or two to order. With something like that in place, those 100 copies would definitively go to fans.

I keep seeing open preorders mentioned and just want to say again, there is quite a lot of people who see those in the same light as "open editions" and it causes those people to not care about buying the thing anymore. Yes, these are folks who are rarity-chasers, and that's OK. We need those customers to make these releases possible. I am personally one of those people - I compulsively buy limited edition items for things I like but don't really need (iam8bit just got close to $100 for me with the Rare vinyls).

Just think about this - honestly, if Breach & Clear was not limited, would people want it? The game has sold no more than 2,000 copies digitally on Vita and it was not reviewed super-well. We have our fans, but I'd imagine less than 100 people would have said "Yes - I'd buy it!" if there was not a component of rarity. The mere fact that the game was limited drove enough interest to make it sell out in two hours. Plain and simple, if the game was not limited there is no way a physical version could exist.

Our goal is to make more physical releases a reality, and we can't do that just on the games alone. It's unfortunate, but the limited aspect has to exist to drive demand. The best we can do is try to scale runs so they last longer and come up with ways to make sure games can go to the people who really want them before they go to anyone else.

We're doing our best here to create an ecosystem that lets physical releases of small or lesser known games exist. If we're angering people with what we're doing, we appreciate your feedback and are honestly sorry that we won't be seeing you as customers. Unfortunately, for the betterment of developers and just to simply bring these physical releases into the world - we have to stick to our guns on being truly limited in every sense.

 

[Varth]

1500 already is 'hyper conservative'.

And that's good. Now gauge interest and be hyper conservative on another batch.

You cannot 'check' interest without taking preorders, as getting people to say they are interested is not the same as getting people to open their wallet. This -was- them "checking interest".

As I and others proposed, why not try this?

Preorders aren't a perfect gauge for niche products

Still, better than guessing.

The simple, most direct answer is this -- if you want it a different way, do it a different way. Endlessly complaining and threatening boycotting in a thread where someone else is actually getting it done is of questionable value to anyone.

Or I could just keep discussing in a civil way what I wish for the future of a project that could mean much for the way small games are sold, since devs mentioned considering stuff due to public response.

As for the "threatening of boycotting" that's a weird assumption of yours. I'm literaly desperate to give them money, even for games I'm not interested in, just for support, and I already said I'm gonna buy CSH or any other game I'm interested in, If it doesn't mean I have to jump through hoops to do it.